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Great Empire Blood Betrayal and the Daynes (Spoilers)

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We’ve all read about the famous Blood Betrayal from ancient YiTi history so there’s no need to quote it here.  And we know from GRRM the Daynes don’t have purple eyes because of a Valyrian heritage. 

And we know some of the structures and artifacts in Westeros can’t be of First Men origin like the base of Hightower (fused black stone) and the sword Dawn (essentially a pale version of Valyrian steel).

Some of the fanbase reasonably believes the Daynes don’t share the same origins as the First Men.  So could the legend of the slaying of the “Amethyst Empress” (if she was indeed slain, perhaps it was more of a political divide within the ancient Great Empire) been the catalyst for a faction of purple-eyed people to escape to Westeros?  The original Daynes could have the kin of the Amethyst Empress (or she could have been the figurative representation of an entire faction within the Great Empire.) The amethyst-eyed ancestors of the Daynes could have flown to Westeros on pre-Valyrian dragons, built the base of Hightower, established a home in Starfall, and brought the dragonsteel-like sword Dawn.  (Or perhaps, if the legends are true, forging it from a fallen rock on Starfall - likely using dragon flame and magic.)  Or perhaps the Daynes didn’t bring the dragons but through some other means came to Westeros.  It would explain how they came to possess the mysterious sword Dawn. 
 

Another possibility I should mention - but don’t necessarily believe - is that the famous “black stone that had fallen from the sky” worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor was the “fallen star” that gave Starfall it’s name.  Perhaps the Great Empire had a colony in Westeros near old town and witnessed a meteor fall nearby.  The Daynes and the base of the Hightower could be remnants of the ancient colony.  

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I think that first Azor Ahai was ancestor of both - Valyrian dragonlords and Daynes, and that Hightowers were serving to Daynes as their scouts, that's why their moto is "We light the way". According to the legend about creation of Lightbringer, that sword was forged in a temple in a sacred flames, in span of 6 months. So, it seems to me that Azor Ahai was a Red Priest, also could be that he was a child of Amethyst Empress and nephew of Bloodstone Emperor.

If he was a Red Priest and was serving to R'hllor/Lord of Light, then it's likely that, same as Melisandre, he had prophetic visions that he saw thru flames. Could be that Targaryen prophetic dragon-dreams were given to them because their ancestor, Azor Ahai, was given that power from R'hllor. In a vision he saw a comet that was falling, and knew where it will fall. He went there, to Westeros, and from that meteorite ore forged Dawn/Lightbringer. And later at that place was build Starfall.

It's possible that the place where Starfall was build is a place of power, i.e. part of Lightbringer's energy remained at the site of meteorite's fall. And because to defeat the Others, all of that meteorite's power was needed, Azor Ahai was unable to destroy them all. Though he figured out a way how to fix that, how to gather all the power. He build Starfall at the crash cite, and centuries later Jon was conceived and maybe even born at Starfall, and that way gathered all power. Part of the power is in the sword, and part of the power is in the wielder/Jon.

From his visions Azor knew that he won't be able to defeat the Others in Westeros, that they will outlive him, and will be defeated many centuries later by his descendant, who will become the Sword of the Morning and Azor Ahai reborn. So, after defeating the Others in Essos, he gave Lightbringer/Dawn to his heir, and his family migrated to Westeros.

According to legends first dragons on Planetos appeared at Asshai, so it's likely that after dragons became extinct, there were still remaining dragon eggs at Asshai. So when Azor Ahai (or his descendants) were leaving Asshai, they took 40 dragon eggs with them. And when they were going west to Dorne thru Valyrian peninsula, those dragon eggs hatched. 40 people that owned those eggs/dragons became 40 dragonlord families of Valyria. They remained with their dragons, and the rest of Azor's people went to Dorne. Both Daynes and Hightowers were descendants of Azor Ahai, that's why they have blond hair and violet/purple eyes, even though they are not Valyrians like House Targaryen. Targaryens are those of AA's descendants that remained in Valyria. After arriving to Westeros, with help from Bran the Builder Hightowers build Oldtown and Daynes build Starfall. It's likely that those black oil stones were brought by them from Essos. If it's the same material from which were build Five Forst of Yi Ti's Empire.

The name of House Hightower's founder is Uthor

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Uthor_of_the_High_Tower

(similar to Uther Pendragon, father of King Arthur, wielder of magic sword Excalibur).

George Martin has a rule according to which he formed Valyrian names and surnames. It's names with "ae" and "e...y" like Aenar, Aerys, Daenerys, Rhaegar, Daeron, Vaella, Gael, and names like Viserys, Aerys, Rhaenys, Maelys, Jaehaerys. And there are names like that, with ae and ey, amongst Hightowers. Their current heir is Baelor, there's also Leyton, Leyla, Alysanne, Humfrey, Denyse, Alerie. And there was Eustace, Gwayne, Alicent, and Abelar in House Hightower. So those names could be a clue that Targaryens and Hightowers have the same origin/common ancestor - Amethyst Empress <- there's both ae and ey in her name.

Edited by Megorova

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that first Azor Ahai was ancestor of both - Valyrian dragonlords and Daynes, and that Hightowers were serving to Daynes as their scouts, that's why their moto is "We light the way". According to the legend about creation of Lightbringer, that sword was forged in a temple in a sacred flames, in span of 6 months. So, it seems to me that Azor Ahai was a Red Priest, also could be that he was a child of Amethyst Empress and nephew of Bloodstone Emperor.

If he was a Red Priest and was serving to R'hllor/Lord of Light, then it's likely that, same as Melisandre, he had prophetic visions that he saw thru flames. Could be that Targaryen prophetic dragon-dreams were given to them because their ancestor, Azor Ahai, was given that power from R'hllor. In a vision he saw a comet that was falling, and knew where it will fall. He went there, to Westeros, and from that meteorite ore forged Dawn/Lightbringer. And later at that place was build Starfall.

It's possible that the place where Starfall was build is a place of power, i.e. part of Lightbringer's energy remained at the site of meteorite's fall. And because to defeat the Others, all of that meteorite's power was needed, Azor Ahai was unable to destroy them all. Though he figured out a way how to fix that, how to gather all the power. He build Starfall at the crash cite, and centuries later Jon was conceived and maybe even born at Starfall, and that way gathered all power. Part of the power is in the sword, and part of the power is in the wielder/Jon.

From his visions Azor knew that he won't be able to defeat the Others in Westeros, that they will outlive him, and will be defeated many centuries later by his descendant, who will become the Sword of the Morning and Azor Ahai reborn. So, after defeating the Others in Essos, he gave Lightbringer/Dawn to his heir, and his family migrated to Westeros.

According to legends first dragons on Planetos appeared at Asshai, so it's likely that after dragons became extinct, there were still remaining dragon eggs at Asshai. So when Azor Ahai (or his descendants) were leaving Asshai, they took 40 dragon eggs with them. And when they were going west to Dorne thru Valyrian peninsula, those dragon eggs hatched. 40 people that owned those eggs/dragons became 40 dragonlord families of Valyria. They remained with their dragons, and the rest of Azor's people went to Dorne. Both Daynes and Hightowers were descendants of Azor Ahai, that's why they have blond hair and violet/purple eyes, even though they are not Valyrians like House Targaryen. Targaryens are those of AA's descendants that remained in Valyria. After arriving to Westeros, with help from Bran the Builder Hightowers build Oldtown and Daynes build Starfall. It's likely that those black oil stones were brought by them from Essos. If it's the same material from which were build Five Forst of Yi Ti's Empire.

The name of House Hightower's founder is Uthor

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Uthor_of_the_High_Tower

(similar to Uther Pendragon, father of King Arthur, wielder of magic sword Excalibur).

George Martin has a rule according to which he formed Valyrian names and surnames. It's names with "ae" and "e...y" like Aenar, Aerys, Daenerys, Rhaegar, Daeron, Vaella, Gael, and names like Viserys, Aerys, Rhaenys, Maelys, Jaehaerys. And there are names like that, with ae and ey, amongst Hightowers. Their current heir is Baelor, there's also Leyton, Leyla, Alysanne, Humfrey, Denyse, Alerie. And there was Eustace, Gwayne, Alicent, and Abelar in House Hightower. So those names could be a clue that Targaryens and Hightowers have the same origin/common ancestor - Amethyst Empress <- there's both ae and ey in her name.

So you don’t believe that dragons are the results of blood magic that combines wyverns and firewyms?  I personally subscribe to that theory.  
 

You have a lot of great ideas but I am curious: since the base of Hightower is fused black stone how did they transports the massive object from Essos?  It’s seemless so it couldn’t have been brought in several pieces.  

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The Daynes are likened to being proto-Valyrians, and the Great Empire of the Dawn are also often believed to be proto-Valyrian. While written differently, the name of the Daynes has a similar pronunciation as Daenys or Daenerys, while Daenerys seems to have had a vision of the line of Dawn emperors when she gave birth to Rhaego. The different writing of a name is not an issue, if we remember that the Daynes stem from a pre-writing era and age (at least in Westeros), or at least they only used runic writing for naming sites, places and graves, while the common language and writing was introduces by the much later Andals. There's the name of their sword Dawn, the name of their castle Starfall, and a legend of the Bloodstone Emperor worshipping a fallen star. Note: a sword like Dawn if crafted from a meteorite doesn't need to have been made in dragonfire.

Rather than "dragonfire" it mostly hints at it being forged at a pre-iron age time, when the sole way to forge a superior iron sword would have been using meteorites as source material. The fact that it's a "pale" sword indicates it's not like Valyrian Steel, as the latter is dark. Steel is highly carbonized metal, which darkens it.

I do take note that the Daynes considers themselves First Men. The Hightowers may have arrived prior to First Men. It also seems that Daynes and Hightowers behave differently throughout the political history we know of.

From the moment that Aegon began to conquer Westeros they aimed to make a Hightower a queen: they offered a Hightower daughter as bride to Aegon (he turned the offer down), Maegor was wed to Ceryse Hightower (but she was never with child), an hundred years later they manage to get yet another Hightower queen in Alicent, and finally had royal offspring, and these were a direct cause of the Dance, with every Hightower acting Alicent's children were "superior" to Rhaenyra's, purely based on their looks. We also know that at some point in the Wall's history, there was a LC Hightower who tried to make Castle Black inheritable to his sons, and I suspect that Castle Black was likely built by this LC, or that this LC made Castle Black the main castle instead of the Nightfort. CB has a rather large sept, is half as old as Nightfort (where the magical gate is and likely some type of different wards, oh and a weirwood and garden), and has no "godswood", forcing men to risk to go north of the Wall to take their vows to the Old Gods there. So, Castle Black was built at a post-Andal invasion time, when most regions south of the Neck had already been Andalized and the Faith already held sway there, and the seat of the Faith was at Oldtown. Very early on, with Uthor's second son, the Hightowers commence making a learning center - the Citadel and order of the maesters. While raising of universities and sending its learned from there all across the continent to "educate" the children of petty kings and nobles is by itself a noble cause, it also can be a way to keep information behind lock and key, and thereby twist the histories and eliminate those with magical abilities. It is rather eye brow raising that Hightowers did this during a time and era when most of the other petty kingdoms used weirwood trees through which greenseers have direct access to seeing historical events. It's a history of Hightowers always aiming to become the ones who have control over a power tool - knowledge, popular but controlling religion, the Wall, dragons (and once the Hightower attempts to procure those fails, and not even is allowed to be Hand, the last dragons inevitably are killed) - and when they had it are quite elitarian and outright cruel and vicious about. It reeks of the Valyrian dragonlord attitudes before the Doom, of the Bloodstone Emperor, and certainly not the Amethyst Empress. 

As for how they would have come to Westeros, I would say "the way" was via the Sunset Sea. Their high lighttower or beacon is towards the west. And they have funded and helped both Elissa Farman and Velaryon after to explore the Sunset Sea. This all indicates that the Hightowers believe it's possible to get to Asshai or Yi Ti via the Sunset Sea.

We don't have anything remotely like this continuous effort to gain control over a power tool with the Daynes. Nor are they exclusively silver haired. They warred against the Reach as kings of the Torrentine, burned down Oldtown of the Hightowers (Samwell Dayne), and while yes they have Swords of the Evening as well as Swords of the Morning, and the first fought Nymeria upon her arrival, the second (Davos Dayne) became her third husband-consort. Though Princess Nymeria had a son with Davos, there seems to be no insurgence or war over the fact that Nymeria's daughter with her first husband Martell was Nymeria's heir - The "princess" of Dorne (not queen). During the first Dornish war it were again Daynes who attacked Oldtown. They also managed to wed a Dayne to a then Targaryen prince, Maekar, and she died before Maekar became king. She's the mother of Aemon Targaryen and Egg. Targaryens who were particularly interested in making things right for the people, the smallfolk. And well, when she wed Maekar, he wasn't even in the running to be king. Egg was already born prior to crown prince Baelor's death, prior to the death of Baelor's son in the Spring Sickness. Hence, the Daynes are time and time again associated to Princesses, not Queens. And when they do manage to get into a powerful position, by happenstance mostly, they don't seem to aim to acquire it to elevate their house above another.

As has been pointed out: with the Hightowers you have Uthor (Uther), a reference to Pendragon, while the Daynes have an Arthur. Both were kings, but became so only in a different manner. Uther warred for it, while Arthur was as unlikely to be king as Egg was. The legitimacy of his birth was in question (illigitemate conception) and it took Arthur pulling Excalibur out of a stone (meteorite sword) to be accepted as king, after which he set up the round table to that everyone was each other's equal... a concept reflected in the Dornish water gardens, built for a "namesake" Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Prince Martell.

Edited by sweetsunray

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7 hours ago, level52 said:

So you don’t believe that dragons are the results of blood magic that combines wyverns and firewyms?  I personally subscribe to that theory.  

No, I think that dragons are dragons. They originally were what they are, they weren't made thru fusion of some other species. This is the legend about dragons' origin:

"The Valyrians themselves claimed that dragons sprang forth as the children of the Fourteen Flames, while in Qarth the tales state that there was once a second moon in the sky. One day this moon was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth. In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.

Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did?"

 

It seems to me that this second moon in the sky was a space-ship, so the origin of the dragons is some other planet, not Planetos, or they were artificially created beings. Prior ASOIAF George Martin wrote a sci-fi series Tuf Voyaging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging

I have an impression that Planetos is part of GRRM's Thousand Worlds, and thus Tuf's Voyaging took place in the same universe as events of ASOIAF. Main character of TV owned a seedship, using which he was able to create new species, and also to terraform planets and affect their climate. Maybe Planetos' dragons were created by Tuf in his laboratory, and that second moon in the sky was his seedship. Could be that dragons got out of control, broke his ship, and escaped to Planetos' surface. Asshai's Shadow could be what remains of that ship, and Tuf himself also went to Planetos, and in its history is known as God-on-Earth.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/God-on-Earth

Could be that unnatural seasoning of Planetos is caused by malfunctioning terraforming device that is still working on Tuf's ship. The Others also could be something like artificial beings created by Tuf's ship. While greenseeing and Weirwood Network seems to be something similar to parasitic mold (greeshka) from A Song for Lya.

https://grrm-thousand-worlds.fandom.com/wiki/A_Song_for_Lya

Maybe White walkers are undead because they are also infected with greeshka. Could be that either Tuf accidentally brought that parasite to Planetos, or greeshka's spores arrived to Planetos with a meteorite/Bloodstone. So the Bloodstone Emperor, who was Tuf's ninth descendant, was infected by greeshka, that turned out to be a carnivorous predator that needed blood for feed, that's why Bloodstone Emperor became a canibal. His actions caused First Long Night, and his nephew, Azor Ahai, figured out how to get rid of this parasite. It's likely that Tuf wasn't alone on his ship, so those people (or maybe they were androids), that came with him to Planetos, created Asshai. Tuf's descendants ruled over Yi Ti, one of them from each generation served in R'hllor's temple in Asshai, and Azor Ahai was one of those. When First Long Night ended from Asshai his descendants took 40 dragon eggs and brought them to Valyria, where they hatched, and then Ancients from Asshai's Shadow gave them knowledge how to tame dragons. They knew how to do that, because dragons were created by the same ship on which those aliens arrived to Planetos together with Tuf, who was God-on-Earth and ancestor of Amethyst Empress, Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai, Valyrians, Daynes and Hightowers. Or something like that.

So, what is known about the origin of dragons from that legend in the World Book, makes sense in frames of my theory about Azor Ahai and his descendants. It explains why Shadow-people weren't conquering Planetos, even though they were first dragon-tamers, prior Valyrians.

8 hours ago, level52 said:

You have a lot of great ideas but I am curious: since the base of Hightower is fused black stone how did they transports the massive object from Essos?  It’s seemless so it couldn’t have been brought in several pieces.

Maybe they transported it in pieces, and then fused them thru usage of magic (or alien technology). Or, maybe, if originally that structure was placed in Oldtown in one piece, then could be that it was also brought from Essos in one piece - thru usage of some sort of antigravitational device, that made them able to move huge objects. And later either that technology was lost, or got broken, or, those that were able to use it, died.

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The Amethyst Empress was from the ancient equivalent of Yi Ti.

Why would it be that eye color would persist in the Daynes for thousands of years, but presumable East Asian facial features would disappear? Given the "bright eyes" of the present YiTish, it seems like they are the primary descendants of these gem emperors.

GRRM's quote about Elizabeth Taylor not being Valyrian does not mean that she is also a descendant of the Amethyst Empress. I think he meant that some features (e.g. purple eyes) might develop in different cultures without necessarily having to be related to one another.

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7 hours ago, Vaith said:

The Amethyst Empress was from the ancient equivalent of Yi Ti.

Why would it be that eye color would persist in the Daynes for thousands of years, but presumable East Asian facial features would disappear? Given the "bright eyes" of the present YiTish, it seems like they are the primary descendants of these gem emperors.

GRRM's quote about Elizabeth Taylor not being Valyrian does not mean that she is also a descendant of the Amethyst Empress. I think he meant that some features (e.g. purple eyes) might develop in different cultures without necessarily having to be related to one another.

Fair enough, but the Daynes have an eye color not seen in other First Men.  GRRM didn’t give the Daynes purple eyes for fun, colors are clues.  Also it’s not clear if the ancient people YiTi had Asian facial features.  Or perhaps they did look Asian but the intermixing of Daynes and other First Men removed the Asian facial features but left the purple eyes. Why would just the purple eyes remain?  This is a fantasy world, not the real world.
 

It’s likely some ancient dragonlords (Pre-Valyrian) came to Westeros because the base of Hightower is fused black stone.  There are no other known ways in the ASOIAF lore fused black stone can be made other than by dragon fire.  

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7 hours ago, level52 said:

Fair enough, but the Daynes have an eye color not seen in other First Men.  GRRM didn’t give the Daynes purple eyes for fun, colors are clues.  Also it’s not clear if the ancient people YiTi had Asian facial features.  Or perhaps they did look Asian but the intermixing of Daynes and other First Men removed the Asian facial features but left the purple eyes. Why would just the purple eyes remain?  This is a fantasy world, not the real world.
 

It’s likely some ancient dragonlords (Pre-Valyrian) came to Westeros because the base of Hightower is fused black stone.  There are no other known ways in the ASOIAF lore fused black stone can be made other than by dragon fire.  

Well, the purple eyes and silver hair imo are a feature of albinism, which can occur in many various degrees or levels of severity, and will happen as a mutation all over a widespread population. And especially on islands recessive genes can remain a common phenotype through genetical drift. Notice that those with Valyrian like features all live on islands or peninusla - Lys, Dragonstone, Starfall, Oldtown, Valyria, Tarth.

Before you go "yeah but then how can they get a tan!" or "how don't they need eyeglasses"...

1 - Well Bloodraven is a confirmed complete albino when it comes to skin and eyes, with red eyes. Despite this, he can shoot arrows to a target as if he has the sight of a hawk. So, at least on Planetos, his eyesight isn't diminished or blurred by the fact he has no melanine whatsoever in his or behind his iris.

2 - There are various forms of albinism. There are versions where people can in fact tan normally or up to a certain age. There are albinism forms that do not affect hair color.

So, yes, it's entirely possible that the Daynes have violet-blue eyes, without it necessarily being a mutation stemming from either Valyria or Yi Ti.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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9 hours ago, level52 said:

Fair enough, but the Daynes have an eye color not seen in other First Men.  GRRM didn’t give the Daynes purple eyes for fun, colors are clues.  Also it’s not clear if the ancient people YiTi had Asian facial features.  Or perhaps they did look Asian but the intermixing of Daynes and other First Men removed the Asian facial features but left the purple eyes. Why would just the purple eyes remain?  This is a fantasy world, not the real world.
 

It’s likely some ancient dragonlords (Pre-Valyrian) came to Westeros because the base of Hightower is fused black stone.  There are no other known ways in the ASOIAF lore fused black stone can be made other than by dragon fire.  

They'd have to have an awfully good reason to go that far west, given that even legendary accounts never state that the Great Empire of the Dawn expanded past the Bone Mountains or into Qarth.

The base of the Hightower is not explicitly said to be dragonstone, but rather seems to be a black stone that is compared to that in the Seastone Chair, in Yeen, and Asshai. It is likely more of an eldritch / "squishers" type thing more than something related to dragonlords. The comparison is made in the text itself in TWOIAF.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Notice that those with Valyrian like features all live on islands or peninusla - Lys, Dragonstone, Starfall, Oldtown, Valyria, Tarth.

Tbh, a lot of these are accounted for too, or supposed "Valyrian" features have been exaggerated by fans. Lys was a colony of the Valyrian Freehold and attractive slaves have been bred together on purpose, Dragonstone was another Valyrian colony and supposedly infamous for Targs seducing the nobles, there's not much indication about Oldtown except Alerie having "silver" hair (which seems like a poetic way of the text saying she has grey hair, not silver-gold hair like Dany) and in Tarth, Brienne is just blond and blue-eyed: there's also a specific Targaryen marriage mentioned in TWOIAF, and no real evidence that the locals of Tarth are all fair-haired like her.

But agreed that these elements can reoccur without needing to be related, whether it's a scientific reason or GRRM just reusing the purple eyed motif (and not even in the same way... dark haired, violet eyed individuals are also apparently common in the Daynes, but not e.g. the Targaryens)

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9 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Tbh, a lot of these are accounted for too, or supposed "Valyrian" features have been exaggerated by fans. Lys was a colony of the Valyrian Freehold and attractive slaves have been bred together on purpose, Dragonstone was another Valyrian colony and supposedly infamous for Targs seducing the nobles, there's not much indication about Oldtown except Alerie having "silver" hair (which seems like a poetic way of the text saying she has grey hair, not silver-gold hair like Dany) and in Tarth, Brienne is just blond and blue-eyed: there's also a specific Targaryen marriage mentioned in TWOIAF, and no real evidence that the locals of Tarth are all fair-haired like her.

But agreed that these elements can reoccur without needing to be related, whether it's a scientific reason or GRRM just reusing the purple eyed motif (and not even in the same way... dark haired, violet eyed individuals are also apparently common in the Daynes, but not e.g. the Targaryens)

Sure, Velaryons and Targaryens are Valyrians. And yes there's a Targaryen marriage mentioned for Tarth. And yes, Lys is a Valyrian freehold. I wasn't saying that various mutations occurred on every island, but that the phenotepical preservation of such a recessive mutation has a chance of being better preserved as a phenotype on an island, because of genetic drift. Even if settlers such as Velaryons (before the Targs) mingled with local smallfolk, chances are that across generations the majority of the island population carries the recessive genes. And as they procreate a lot of people will have the recessive phenotype.

It's interesting to compare the Daynes with the Blackwoods in that way. For Bloodraven to be an albino, the Blackwoods are carriers. But they do not have the phenotype generally. Had the Blackwoods settled on an island though, they'd likely look more like the Daynes. Both are First Men, so this would be evidence that an albinistic mutation was present in the First Men, but the Daynes only show it because they're island people. 

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I also dig into the theory of the Great Empire of Dawn having originated the Valyrians, that feverish dream Daenerys had while birthing Rhaego seemed like a nod to her ancient ancestors, you can see even the description of their eye colours according to the gemstones they were referred to in the history of the Great Empire of Dawn.

I do think the Daynes and Hightowers have some similar origins, they have the Valyrian features but strangely aren't consider of the Blood of Old Valyria, I think those two families will play a bigger part in the last two books.

As for Dragons being a fusion of Wyverns and Fire Wyrms, I think Dragons are just dragons, I believe those are three different species or maybe all of the were fire wyrms at some point but two species evolved from the fire wyrms, being the dragons and the wyverns.

Another thing that is a big mystery is how the Dragons are associated with coming from the Shadows, it is even implied that the Valyrians learned how to tame the dragons by the people from the shadow, who then disappeared from history. I hope we get to see more about these mysterious places from the far east.

I don't think Daenerys is Azor Ahai as many think she is, I think that she will probably be Nissa Nissa. And I also think there's more than one hero, there is not just one Azor Ahai, I think we will see a group of saviours.

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On 6/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, Vaith said:

They'd have to have an awfully good reason to go that far west, given that even legendary accounts never state that the Great Empire of the Dawn expanded past the Bone Mountains or into Qarth.

The base of the Hightower is not explicitly said to be dragonstone, but rather seems to be a black stone that is compared to that in the Seastone Chair, in Yeen, and Asshai. It is likely more of an eldritch / "squishers" type thing more than something related to dragonlords. The comparison is made in the text itself in TWOIAF.

Tbh, a lot of these are accounted for too, or supposed "Valyrian" features have been exaggerated by fans. Lys was a colony of the Valyrian Freehold and attractive slaves have been bred together on purpose, Dragonstone was another Valyrian colony and supposedly infamous for Targs seducing the nobles, there's not much indication about Oldtown except Alerie having "silver" hair (which seems like a poetic way of the text saying she has grey hair, not silver-gold hair like Dany) and in Tarth, Brienne is just blond and blue-eyed: there's also a specific Targaryen marriage mentioned in TWOIAF, and no real evidence that the locals of Tarth are all fair-haired like her.

But agreed that these elements can reoccur without needing to be related, whether it's a scientific reason or GRRM just reusing the purple eyed motif (and not even in the same way... dark haired, violet eyed individuals are also apparently common in the Daynes, but not e.g. the Targaryens)

In my understanding there are 2 types of black stone: oily black stone and fused black stone.  The black stone structures made by Valyrians are not described as “oily”, and neither are the base of Hightower or the Five Forts.  Most importantly is the base of Hightower resides on on an island known Battle Isle, suggesting it was important for an ancient battle long forgotten.  And according to TWOIAF the settlement has been occupied “since the dawn age” and “we know for a certainty the base predates the upper levels by thousands of years”.  There is the suggestion in TWOIAF that “dragons once roosted at the top of battle isle”. So we have 2 ancient fortresses of fused (but not oily) black stone.  

The fused massive non-oily fused stone slabs of the Fire Five suggests dragonfire was used, as does the base of hightower, but the Five Forts predate Valyria and the Architecture of base of the Hightower has no hints of Valyrian design.  
 

So why would early Daynes leave YiTi and travel so far away?  I’m guessing it’s a bit of a parallel with the Targaryeans leaving Valyria to settle Westeros, though more extreme.  I’m guessing early Daynes left around the same time the of the legendary slaying of the “Amethyst Empress”, which happened to precede the Empire of the Dawn’s equivalent of the Long Night.  They took some dragons, the sword Dawn, and took up residence in Westeros building a fortress on Battle Isle and playing a role in ending the Long Night. 
 

But to me the biggest reason to think the Daynes come from YiTi is their sword Dawn.  Whether or not the sword was forged from a meteorite on Starfall, it’s forging requires magic and techniques unknown in Westeros, it’s like Valyrian Steel in a respects except the color, and it’s appearance is like the swords wielded by the spirits in Dany’s fever dream (and the spirits of Dany’s dream are highly suggestive of a YiTish origin by their various eye colors.) 

I don’t see an easy way to explain the sword Dawn without invoking a Great Empire connection, whether the sword itself came from the Great Empire or was forged using the same magic.

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On 5/30/2020 at 2:14 PM, level52 said:

We’ve all read about the famous Blood Betrayal from ancient YiTi history so there’s no need to quote it here.  And we know from GRRM the Daynes don’t have purple eyes because of a Valyrian heritage. 

And we know some of the structures and artifacts in Westeros can’t be of First Men origin like the base of Hightower (fused black stone) and the sword Dawn (essentially a pale version of Valyrian steel).

Some of the fanbase reasonably believes the Daynes don’t share the same origins as the First Men.  So could the legend of the slaying of the “Amethyst Empress” (if she was indeed slain, perhaps it was more of a political divide within the ancient Great Empire1) been the catalyst for a faction of purple-eyed people to escape to Westeros?  The original Daynes could have the kin of the Amethyst Empress (or she could have been the figurative representation of an entire faction within the Great Empire.) The amethyst-eyed ancestors of the Daynes could have flown to Westeros on pre-Valyrian dragons, built the base of Hightower, established a home in Starfall, and brought the dragonsteel-like sword Dawn.  (Or perhaps, if the legends are true, forging it from a fallen rock on Starfall - likely using dragon flame and magic.)  Or perhaps the Daynes didn’t bring the dragons but through some other means came to Westeros.  It would explain how they came to possess the mysterious sword Dawn2
 

Another possibility I should mention - but don’t necessarily believe - is that the famous “black stone3 that had fallen from the sky” worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor was the “fallen star” that gave Starfall it’s name.  Perhaps the Great Empire had a colony in Westeros near old town and witnessed a meteor fall nearby.  The Daynes and the base of the Hightower could be remnants of the ancient colony.  

1It is most likely a political divide between political parties or even between the ruling classes.  The lesson, which is the critique of the moral frailty of the human heart, is lost if one person committed a sin that brought the calamity down on everybody.  The disaster in Westeros now is caused by many leaders who failed the people: Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jaime Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Jon Snow, and Jon Arryn. 

2The Daynes were able to keep the sword in their possession for so long because of their tradition of giving it only to those deemed worthy.  In contrast to how the other families kept theirs.  They do not award just to any meathead because he is the highest ranking member of the clan. 

3Those black stones are man made.  It is rather unusual to have these stones in many places and yet not a quarry in sight.  There will be many other buildings in the area made of the same stone if it was quarried locally.  I do not have to tell you the logistics of transporting stones across the world.  Impossible at the quantity required. 

 

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I believe the Yi Ti legends are the key to understand the LN and the Others. Why it came, then and now. And how it end. The Daynes and their sword is evidence there is more than a dumb maester would agree. But what we know is incomplete. Maybe false in some points. We lack also a timeline to connect the events of Essos and Westeros.

I could believe the Fist Men came to Westeros because they were fleeing something from Essos. But I don't think they came with dragons and build the Hightower's base. Not even the Daynes.

At some point, the dragons and the magic to produce fused stone in volume became available to the old Yi Ti empire. They build outposts in different places and expanded in Valyria which was bounty for their fire magic.

But I don't think the black stone fallen from the sky is the Daynes's star. The Shadow Lands, the Ash river, the dead city of of Stygai are corrupted by something. I believe this is this back stone, fallen in the middle of the Shadow Lands. Which drove the Bloadstone Emperor to dark magics and the blood betrayal that finally angered the gods, or disrupted something, and called the Others and the LN.

The fused stone seems very old. The 5 Forts were made of it in the young days of the empire. Maybe it was needing only Firewyrms and was OK. AFAIK, there is no tale of dragons in the old empire. The references for origin are the Shadow Lands and a tale (from Qarth) of dragons falling from a cracked moon. The moon could be a comet. And the fallen stone a piece of the comet. A stone, giving the magic to corrupt and hybrid life-being. Making dragons from firewyrms and wyverns may not be the worst. Or maybe, as they are things of magic. There was also this tiger-woman and the Deep Ones...

The oily black stone, seems different of the fused stone. Less wholesome. It is found in the Seastone Chair of the Ironmen, Ashai, Yeen, and the Isle of Toads. I would guess they're also taints of the Shadow Lands. And related to the sea and the Deep Ones.

Where is the Daynes's star, IDK. Bran sees a "curtain of light at the end of the world". Maybe that is where a star fell. The opposite of the Shadow, at the opposite of the world. Anyway, Dawn looks more like the swords of the Other than Valyrian Steel.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe the Yi Ti legends are the key to understand the LN and the Others. Why it came, then and now. And how it end. The Daynes and their sword is evidence there is more than a dumb maester would agree. But what we know is incomplete. Maybe false in some points. We lack also a timeline to connect the events of Essos and Westeros.

I could believe the Fist Men came to Westeros because they were fleeing something from Essos. But I don't think they came with dragons and build the Hightower's base. Not even the Daynes.

At some point, the dragons and the magic to produce fused stone in volume became available to the old Yi Ti empire. They build outposts in different places and expanded in Valyria which was bounty for their fire magic.

But I don't think the black stone fallen from the sky is the Daynes's star. The Shadow Lands, the Ash river, the dead city of of Stygai are corrupted by something. I believe this is this back stone, fallen in the middle of the Shadow Lands. Which drove the Bloadstone Emperor to dark magics and the blood betrayal that finally angered the gods, or disrupted something, and called the Others and the LN.

The fused stone seems very old. The 5 Forts were made of it in the young days of the empire. Maybe it was needing only Firewyrms and was OK. AFAIK, there is no tale of dragons in the old empire. The references for origin are the Shadow Lands and a tale (from Qarth) of dragons falling from a cracked moon. The moon could be a comet. And the fallen stone a piece of the comet. A stone, giving the magic to corrupt and hybrid life-being. Making dragons from firewyrms and wyverns may not be the worst. Or maybe, as they are things of magic. There was also this tiger-woman and the Deep Ones...

The oily black stone, seems different of the fused stone. Less wholesome. It is found in the Seastone Chair of the Ironmen, Ashai, Yeen, and the Isle of Toads. I would guess they're also taints of the Shadow Lands. And related to the sea and the Deep Ones.

Where is the Daynes's star, IDK. Bran sees a "curtain of light at the end of the world". Maybe that is where a star fell. The opposite of the Shadow, at the opposite of the world. Anyway, Dawn looks more like the swords of the Other than Valyrian Steel.

I would consider the tale of dragons coming from a cracked moon simply the prophesy we see fulfilled in the books: the moon comes close to the sun, cracks, dragons spill forth and drink the flames of the sun = Dany walks into Dragos funeral pyre (she’s the moon, he’s the sun) and the magic brings the stone eggs to life birthing the 3 dragons.

I’ve personally never felt many of the ASOIAF astronomy theories compelling.  I’m personally not hung up on the Daynes following a meteor to Starfall and forging a sword from the rock, in fact I think it’s more like they brought it over from the Empire of the Dawn. The best link is Dany’s fever dream which provides an undeniable link to the ancient Empire: 

“ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded rain meant of kings.  In their hands were swords of pale fire.  They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.”

Dawn sounds like one of these swords of pale fire.  We do not have any direct evidence of dragons in YiTi, but GRRM is scanty with evidence sometimes.  I think he intends us to make the connection between the mysterious sword Dawn, like Valyrian steel in every way except color, and the fused stone 5 forts and ancient base of Hightower to dragonflame, especially since the Empire was so close to Asshai.

And I agree with you, I think some dark magic in the Great Empire brought on the Others and the Lion of Night, and this same dark magic corrupted the lands of Asshai.  I wouldn’t doubt if nothing truly fell from the sky in the case of Starfall or the Blood Emperor, it’s just the same distorted myths that led to myths of dragons from the sky.

 

 

 

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On 5/31/2020 at 4:52 PM, Vaith said:

The Amethyst Empress was from the ancient equivalent of Yi Ti.

Why would it be that eye color would persist in the Daynes for thousands of years, but presumable East Asian facial features would disappear? Given the "bright eyes" of the present YiTish, it seems like they are the primary descendants of these gem emperors.

GRRM's quote about Elizabeth Taylor not being Valyrian does not mean that she is also a descendant of the Amethyst Empress. I think he meant that some features (e.g. purple eyes) might develop in different cultures without necessarily having to be related to one another.

IIRC, he regretted putting too much emphasis on eye color.

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On 5/31/2020 at 1:52 PM, Vaith said:

The Amethyst Empress was from the ancient equivalent of Yi Ti.

Why would it be that eye color would persist in the Daynes for thousands of years, but presumable East Asian facial features would disappear? Given the "bright eyes" of the present YiTish, it seems like they are the primary descendants of these gem emperors.

GRRM's quote about Elizabeth Taylor not being Valyrian does not mean that she is also a descendant of the Amethyst Empress. I think he meant that some features (e.g. purple eyes) might develop in different cultures without necessarily having to be related to one another.

We should note that in Dany’s fever dream in GOT she sees the spirits of ancient YiTi kings, and the descriptions of their hair don’t exactly match those of East Asians:

 

“Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.”

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5 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said:

IIRC, he regretted putting too much emphasis on eye color.

For me it’s really the sword Dawn that’s the most prominent connection between the Daynes and Great Empire.  It’s unlike any sword  in known world EXCEPT for the swords wielded by the YiTi spirits in Dany’s dreams.  
 

In fact I haven’t really seen any really compelling theory on the origin of Dawn.  

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Just now, level52 said:

I would consider the tale of dragons coming from a cracked moon simply the prophesy we see fulfilled in the books: the moon comes close to the sun, cracks, dragons spill forth and drink the flames of the sun = Dany walks into Dragos funeral pyre (she’s the moon, he’s the sun) and the magic brings the stone eggs to life birthing the 3 dragons.

I’ve personally never felt many of the ASOIAF astronomy theories compelling.  I’m personally not hung up on the Daynes following a meteor to Starfall and forging a sword from the rock, in fact I think it’s more like they brought it over from the Empire of the Dawn. The best link is Dany’s fever dream which provides an undeniable link to the ancient Empire: 

“ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded rain meant of kings.  In their hands were swords of pale fire.  They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.”

Dawn sounds like one of these swords of pale fire.  We do not have any direct evidence of dragons in YiTi, but GRRM is scanty with evidence sometimes.  I think he intends us to make the connection between the mysterious sword Dawn, like Valyrian steel in every way except color, and the fused stone 5 forts and ancient base of Hightower to dragonflame, especially since the Empire was so close to Asshai.

And I agree with you, I think some dark magic in the Great Empire brought on the Others and the Lion of Night, and this same dark magic corrupted the lands of Asshai.  I wouldn’t doubt if nothing truly fell from the sky in the case of Starfall or the Blood Emperor, it’s just the same distorted myths that led to myths of dragons from the sky.

 

 

 

The key to survival is to work together.  But how will that help survival against an enemy who can turn your dead against you.  It does not look like working together will help.  The more you fight the Others, the stronger they become.  The more soldiers you lose, the bigger the size of the Wight army becomes.  The way to defeat them will have to be done through magic rather than conventional warfare.  Bringing together these ancient objects, candles and swords, is the answer.  The objects can only be used by people with the right DNA.  The way to survive is to get all the objects together and get them in the right hands.  Most of these objects are going to be in Essos due to simple probability.  It is the task of Daenerys and Brandon to find them.  Brandon is the historian who can search the river of time to locate them.  Daenerys has the resources to take up the scavenger hunt and obtain the objects. 

House Dayne is not going to get a lot of pages.  Too bad.  They are an interesting lot.  But their sword is obviously of great importance.  The only Dayne who so far has had enough pages is Darkstar.  His DNA will allow him to use Dawn. 

 

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2 minutes ago, level52 said:

For me it’s really the sword Dawn that’s the most prominent connection between the Daynes and Great Empire.  It’s unlike any sword  in known world EXCEPT for the swords wielded by the YiTi spirits in Dany’s dreams.  
 

In fact I haven’t really seen any really compelling theory on the origin of Dawn.  

Dawn is special.  What its real role is?  We will have to wait to find out. 

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