Pontius Pilate Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 6:34 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said: It's something that really makes no sense to me. Varys seems so determined to protect the realm, whatever that means, and works to help the people's condition by pushing for deals and conspiracies to ensure that the realm is protected and peaceful. So why in seven hells would Varys ever support Aerys II Targaryen? I admit, Rhaegar is still an ambiguous figure, but assuming that he really was a good guy who was plotting to push an abdication out of his dad for reasons of insanity, then why would Varys oppose him? Rhaegar managed to bring the large part of the great and noble houses in the Seven Kingdoms together at Harrenhal. Surely a man as clever as Varys could realize that Aerys was the fading figure, and clearly unworthy of sitting the Iron Throne? One way or another, Rhaegar was going to succeed Aerys. Why would Varys undermine all the peaceful efforts to get a decent man in charge of the Seven Kingdoms? It just feels like it undermines everything else that Varys claims to do. There you have it, the answer to your question. Varys serves the realm. He doesn't want a revolution as long as the realm is doing fine. Aerys was full on nuts but he largely allowed his council to do what they were hired to do. Run his kingdom. An uninvolved incompetent is much preferable to an involved incompetent. Aerys had one overwhelming advantage over Robert. He is a Targaryen. His family has ruled Westeros for as long as anybody can remember. People believed in the Targaryen right to rule as much as they believed in upholding guest rights. Both had been in place for a very, very long time and have become part of Westerosi life. The Baratheons do not enjoy the same privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 33 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said: People believed in the Targaryen right to rule as much as they believed in upholding guest rights. I wonder why people feel the need to exaggerate. Guest right came to Westeros with the First Men. If that Targ sentiment was that strong, Viserys, Aegon would be dead, would sit on the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 5:34 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said: I admit, Rhaegar is still an ambiguous figure, but assuming that he really was a good guy who was plotting to push an abdication out of his dad for reasons of insanity Rhaegar was an incredibly ineffective plotter. If Harrenhal really was part of that plot, Rhaegar himself blew it up when he won the tourney. He later said something to Jaime about making changes, but he didn't actually make any changes in time to quell the rebellion. Instead he was absent after causing a conflict and then supported his father's tyrannical actions. That's really not much basis for Varys to betray the person who'd brought him over in the first place, particularly as trying to overthrow the king might cause a civil war. Quote Rhaegar managed to bring the large part of the great and noble houses in the Seven Kingdoms together at Harrenhal He managed to bring knights to a well-funded tourney, which is exactly the sort of thing the aristocracy enjoys attending. That's not quite the same thing as forming a viable political coalition. Quote One way or another, Rhaegar was going to succeed Aerys. Why would Varys undermine all the peaceful efforts to get a decent man in charge of the Seven Kingdoms? What did Varys actually do to undermine anything? Rhaegar was still Aerys' heir as long as he lived. Even if he advised Aerys to attend the tourney, that didn't do anything to impede Rhaegar. Rhaegar's own actions did. Varys did tell Aerys not to let Tywin in, but there Varys was being honest in his assessment that Tywin wasn't there to help (and letting him in led to a sack which Varys presumably didn't want). Quote It just feels like it undermines everything else that Varys claims to do. Varys claims to serve the realm now, but decades previously he was an Essosi newcomer without ties to the people of Westeros, and it's a bit much to expect him to be replacing kings as he sees fit. Like @Lord Varys said, he probably changed during his tenure as Master of Whisperers. @Lord Varys Quote This is also the one who helps make sense of the Aegon plan if Aegon is not Rhaegar's son because if Varys went to KL to undermine the Targaryens and work for a (secret) Blackfyre takeover then it is very odd that Illyrio and the Golden Company weren't ready when the Rebellion began. I don't think there was any such plan at that early date, but we also don't know of the Blackfyres even having a candidate at that point. Quote Another take is that 'serving the Realm' means for Varys 'serving the rightful dynasty' which is the only one powerful enough to keep order. I doubt Varys thinks in terms like "rightful dynasty" himself, as an Essosi slave who wouldn't have grown up with monarchs (Targaryen or otherwise) as his norm. But like you said, other people believe in it so he'll make use of that. Quote We have no indication at this point that the Mad King was a great danger to the Realm or its people as such - if Varys cares about the common people then Aerys II is as good a king as any since Aerys II did, for the most part, only target high lords and great knights and some privileged servants serving in the Red Keep. That put early Aerys ahead of maniacs like Maegor, but Aegon IV wasn't running around massacring peasants, he was engaged in "willful misrule". And Aerys II hating Tywin for effective administration and countermanding his orders out of spite seems like willful misrule to me (even if it's not on the same scale). Tywin hardly likes the smallfolk, but he was trying to set reasonable taxes and regulations. Other kings didn't engage in willful misrule at all. Quote Although I must say I like the idea that Varys fed Cersei the idea to convince Jaime to join the KG to convince Tywin to resign, but if he did that, he could have planned to convince the king to choose Rhaegar as his new Hand. The theory I've heard is that Cersei somehow convinced Aerys to name Jaime to the KG. Her reasoning seems to have been inspired by Aerys removing Ilyn Payne's tongue, which Tywin couldn't do anything about. We don't know why Cersei was so confident she could convince Aerys, but perhaps she figured just letting him know how much Tywin would hate it (like Littlefinger suggesting the dwarves to Joffrey) was sufficient. Varys convincing Cersei seems trickier, since her motivation was her incestuous relationship she must have assumed was secret to everyone else. If Varys simply convinced Aerys, he wouldn't have to go through Cersei, and as Jaime was such a hero-worshipper of Aerys' Kingsguard and it was considered a great honor, he might have expected Jaime to accept. I suppose the one thing in favor of that theory is that we know Varys did something somewhat related by recommending that Barristan be dismissed in order to undermine Joffrey's legitimacy. Quote As I tried to do a couple of times recent postings - you can make a case that Robert Baratheon was a worse king than the Mad King if you consider his spending habits and the way he set up the Realm for explosion in his last years. Floki might want to read this thread. An important point I made there is that Littlefinger was made Master of Coin, and when Tyrion got the job he found that LF was using funds in a way Tyrion himself couldn't make sense of. Quote Later we know that Aerys II and Rhaegar reconciled and Rhaegar was allowed to command the troops in the right against the rebels. Who is to say that Varys didn't play a considerable role in bringing father and son back together? It wouldn't have been Jon Connington who was in exile already, and most likely also not the other courtiers who didn't like Rhaegar very much. Varys certainly didn't get Aerys to trust Tywin at the end of the war, Aerys might have simply decided to ignore past conflicts now that the rebels were his main enemy (and don't forget Aerys had started the bloodshed due to Brandon threatening Rhaegar). On 5/30/2020 at 6:36 PM, Canon Claude said: Why wouldn't Aerys have spent bucketfuls of money on those wacky ideas he had, or the many women he slept with during his younger years? Even if you acknowledge that he had some kind of attention disorder with those big plans of his, what was he doing all those days that Tywin was effectively ruling? Sitting on his stomach playing chess? We know he was a womaniser during his younger years, and even a king will need to spend some amount of cash on that pursuit. He travelled across the realm, so where are the expenses for all that? Aerys' wacky ideas would indeed have cost a lot of money if they had proceeded. Aerys' womanizing would not. We don't even hear of him being like Aegon IV in granting huge favors to people who provided him with women. Neither was the case with Robert, but I've noted that Robert wouldn't have personally made much of a dent in the realm's finances without something else going on. Quote By all means, say that Robert was a terrible king. I agree. By the fantastical standards of the Targaryen dynasty, he's actually not that bad. He's more of an indifferent king. Quote But the difference was that Jon Arryn couldn't stop Robert from burning through money Robert didn't have wacky schemes, so he personally wasn't burning through much money. Littlefinger was emptying the treasury for his own schemes (schemes which still permitted him to provide whatever funds the king actually did need whenever he asked), and the nobility of Westeros couldn't understand what he was up to. On 5/30/2020 at 7:10 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said: You're forgetting that Robert also had two wars instead of just one. The Greyjoy Rebellion caused a significant amount of damage and lives. Isn't that just one war during Robert's reign? And that was much smaller than the rebellion which overthrew Aerys. On 5/30/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: I would have sent Robert and Ned to King's Landing for judgment. Whatever happens to them happens. They get what they deserve if they were really plotting against Aerys. They were both old enough to know what Rickard was up to. If Ned knew of his father's plan to overthrow the Targaryens and did not report this to his king - - - he is supporting the conspiracy. Aerys murdered people without trial. There was nothing about "deserving" anything, and Brandon was an impetuous hothead rather than a conspirator. Robert and Ned hadn't done anything, and their heads were demanded merely for being guilty by association. On 5/30/2020 at 7:56 PM, Lord Varys said: The point just was that Aerys, while mad, wasn't particularly cruel or ineffective as the head of his own government while he had Tywin to guide him. I'd say Aerys murdering his mistress' family and Dontos Hollard's was "cruel", but I agree not enough that Varys would have thought that worth overthrowing him. Quote prior to Duskendale Note that Tywin was still his Hand then. Quote Because frankly, a king hiding in his own castle is a danger to no one. He hid in his castle after Harrenhal, but still managed to be a lethal danger to quite a lot of people. Quote Aerys II may have wasted money during the first few years of his reign, but he clearly didn't seem to have thrown one tourney after another the way Robert did it What is the evidence Robert had more tourneys than Aerys? Or that Robert had more tourneys than any other king? Robert is surprised that he can't fit into his armor during the Hand's tourney, so it seems like he hadn't attempted to recently. Note that Henry VIII, an inspiration for Robert's size, gained weight after he got injured and could no longer participate in athletics, which is not the case with Robert. Quote after Duskendale the Crown would have pretty much financed not a single entertainment thingy - no tourneys, no balls, feasts, no spectacles of any kind. That should have saved a lot of money. Not compared to the scale of a realm's finances. Those things are the sort of expenses a single House might have to undertake to host, which is small relative to the central government. Quote And even then it was fear ruling his actions, not a desire for cruelty. Just think how he is too afraid to fire Tywin after Steffon's death rather than actually moving against the man. Or take how he shits his pants in fear when he suddenly realizes Jaime Lannister is his bodyguard now. I would describe that as "irrationality" rather than simply "fear". Aerys seemed to think Tywin was somewhow behind the storm which killed Steffon, which is ridiculous. But he wasn't afraid enough of Tywin to refrain from making crude jokes about his wife, removing the tongue from his Captain of the Guards, and naming Jaime to the KG. Jaime was Aerys' only bodyguard the whole time the rest of the KG was dispatched to the Trident, but Aerys was irrationally unafraid then, and even when he ordered Jaime to kill his own father (after irrationally letting Tywin in). Quote KL only raised two armies throughout the Rebellion. It couldn't have cost the Iron Throne all that much. Wars are the MAIN COST medieval kings face. This rebellion was an existential threat to the monarchy, you had better believe it was expensive. Quote And unlike Aerys II Aegon IV would have likely surrounded himself with men as mean and corrupt as he himself was Aerys seems to have personally been more of a dick than his cronies, but they were known to be incompetent lickspittles chosen to laugh at his jokes and not threaten Aerys with Tywin-like competence. Cersei similarly preferred incompetent toadies on her council. On 5/30/2020 at 8:43 PM, Canon Claude said: Plus, I suspect that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and might even have had Rickard's blessing. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Rickard arranged the betrothal with Robert, just as he'd arranged for Brandon to marry Catelyn. He didn't do anything to clear up Rhaegar's absence, even though redirecting Aerys' anger toward Rhaegar would have been a lot less personally risky than a trial by combat. On 5/30/2020 at 8:55 PM, Canon Claude said: From what we know of what happened, it's clear that Varys, either inadvertently or willingly, added to the Mad King's paranoia when he suspected his son of treason. Varys is constantly the one warning Aerys about trusting people Varys was right to tell him not to trust Tywin, and while it's less certain it appears he was right that Rhaegar was conspiring against his father. Varys was doign the job he'd been hired to do. Quote Why not talk to Rhaegar in private? Why would Rhaegar listen to Varys? Rhaegar appeared to be acting based on prophecy rather than reason. 23 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That's why he no longer cut his hair or nails - he didn't allow any people with blades near him (KG aside) and having never cut either hair or nails himself, he had no other choice but to turn into the freak we see on the pictures. Learning to cut his own hair and nails seems like something a reasonable person might do. 19 hours ago, BlackLightning said: Why does he care so much? Especially when he murders Kevan Lannister who was in the business of trying to heal the realm? Apparently, he feels like breaking the realm and allowing Aegon to take the credit for putting it back together is the best way to serve the realm. Kevan was trying, but even under optimistic assumptions he would have had quite a hard time as the legitimacy of the regime was perhaps mortally wounded by that point. Admittedly, some of that was due to Varys and LF already conspiring to undermine the regime. Other parts were however Lannisters (I'm including Joffrey) undermining themselves. Quote The fact that GRRM has pointed out that Varys' true motives will be revealed in the last book tells us all we need to know. He's said Melisandre and Varys are the most misunderstood characters. Melisandre's POV shows her to be sometimes dishonest but a True Believer in that she's doing the right thing for humanity. 17 hours ago, Mithras said: There was no Blackfyre backstory back when AGoT was published. This might be the case even for the majority of ACoK. Then ask yourself, what were Varys and Illyrio up to at that point? What was their game before the retcon? Is it really that much of a mystery? Arya overheard them plotting to have the Dothraki invade when the realm was sufficiently destabilized (which was happening too quickly at that point in time). Afterward Illyrio is trying to bring Dany and her dragons back to Pentos. 11 hours ago, Lord Varys said: What we are missing so far is why the hell Varys should care about Westeros at all, why he would be invested in that kingdom to the point that he hangs out there at a court where half or more of the powerful people would gladly see him dead? Those are the unanswered questions at this point. That is a question, but it makes more sense after he's spent decades there. Quote Aegon is already in AGoT, although merely implicitly. Dany realizes that Illyrio Mopatis subtly mocks her dear brother, and it is quite clear he doesn't care about her as a pretender, either. Tyrion mocks Joffrey while also acting to bolster his regime. Having a claim can count a whole lot more than personal merit in receiving political support. 8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: He tried to protect Gendry by sending him out of Cersei's reach, which is a really good parallel to what he might have done with Aegon. (we have the whole sending the boy away, but keeping the girl behind as well) He's also suspected by some to have hidden away Tyrek Lannister. Quote Them seeing Aerys with their own eyes might make them more open to a change. I think he gave up Lyanna's identity as the KotLT and then did the same thing he did with Dany, tried to protect her by getting Rhaegar involved Was Varys at the tourney? Lots of knights volunteered to unmask the KotLT. I don't see any indication that Varys knows more than anyone else about Rhaegar & Lyanna's relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 11 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think there was any such plan at that early date, but we also don't know of the Blackfyres even having a candidate at that point. They would have had one in Varys himself and/or Illyrio. Or they could have just made one up. When you have power and seize a throne by force legitimacy comes later. Quote I doubt Varys thinks in terms like "rightful dynasty" himself, as an Essosi slave who wouldn't have grown up with monarchs (Targaryen or otherwise) as his norm. But like you said, other people believe in it so he'll make use of that. He could believe in things like that if he is Westerosi by birth with a blood tie to the royal dynasty we are talking about. If he has Blackfyre or Targaryen ancestors/relatives such things might be pretty important to him. Quote That put early Aerys ahead of maniacs like Maegor, but Aegon IV wasn't running around massacring peasants, he was engaged in "willful misrule". And Aerys II hating Tywin for effective administration and countermanding his orders out of spite seems like willful misrule to me (even if it's not on the same scale). Tywin hardly likes the smallfolk, but he was trying to set reasonable taxes and regulations. Other kings didn't engage in willful misrule at all. Irrelevant if the boat wasn't all that shaky at that point. Which it wasn't. Aerys II burned some people, but his reign was all peaceful and quiet and prosperous, never mind what happened to the Darklyns and Hollards and the occasional wetnurse. Quote The theory I've heard is that Cersei somehow convinced Aerys to name Jaime to the KG. Her reasoning seems to have been inspired by Aerys removing Ilyn Payne's tongue, which Tywin couldn't do anything about. We don't know why Cersei was so confident she could convince Aerys, but perhaps she figured just letting him know how much Tywin would hate it (like Littlefinger suggesting the dwarves to Joffrey) was sufficient. Varys convincing Cersei seems trickier, since her motivation was her incestuous relationship she must have assumed was secret to everyone else. If Varys simply convinced Aerys, he wouldn't have to go through Cersei, and as Jaime was such a hero-worshipper of Aerys' Kingsguard and it was considered a great honor, he might have expected Jaime to accept. I suppose the one thing in favor of that theory is that we know Varys did something somewhat related by recommending that Barristan be dismissed in order to undermine Joffrey's legitimacy. That seems to be weird stuff. My point is that Cersei has gone on record saying she believed for years Varys was her best friend at court when she first came there ... and she came there during the reign of the Mad King. The reason why Varys would have needed Cersei for this is obvious - alone Jaime wouldn't have ever agreed. He wanted Casterly Rock - he just wanted Cersei more. Without her there is no indication he would have considered joining the KG. Quote Varys certainly didn't get Aerys to trust Tywin at the end of the war, Aerys might have simply decided to ignore past conflicts now that the rebels were his main enemy (and don't forget Aerys had started the bloodshed due to Brandon threatening Rhaegar). Aerys II executed a bunch of people after that - and we have no idea why that was. Brandon could have been accused of 'threatening the Crown Prince', but we don't know that he was, but his companions and their fathers never did such a thing. Rickard demanded a trial-by-combat for himself, meaning he also stood accused of a crime - which we don't know anything about at this point. Quote Robert didn't have wacky schemes, so he personally wasn't burning through much money. Littlefinger was emptying the treasury for his own schemes (schemes which still permitted him to provide whatever funds the king actually did need whenever he asked), and the nobility of Westeros couldn't understand what he was up to. That is just nonsense. Littlefinger had nothing to do with the state the treasury was in when he took over. Robert spent all the gold he stole from the Targaryens. Quote I'd say Aerys murdering his mistress' family and Dontos Hollard's was "cruel", but I agree not enough that Varys would have thought that worth overthrowing him. Those are irrelevant things. They had nothing to do with the effectiveness of his government. Quote He hid in his castle after Harrenhal, but still managed to be a lethal danger to quite a lot of people. Prior to that, after Duskendale. Who, a couple of lords who provoked him after Harrenhal? Aside from that, perhaps some servants and grooms, and lords of the council, and the criminals brought before him for trial. Big deal. A man not leaving his castle cannot even terrorize his own city. He wouldn't know what's going on out there. Quote What is the evidence Robert had more tourneys than Aerys? Or that Robert had more tourneys than any other king? Robert is surprised that he can't fit into his armor during the Hand's tourney, so it seems like he hadn't attempted to recently. Note that Henry VIII, an inspiration for Robert's size, gained weight after he got injured and could no longer participate in athletics, which is not the case with Robert. Robert certainly can no longer participate in athletics by the time we meet him. He tries and would like to, but he never actually does. I don't care how many tourneys there were, but we do know there were none in KL for years between Duskendale and Robert's coronation. During Robert's reign we have the nameday tourney and the Tourney of the Hand in very quick succession. This is just an idea for people who have to wrap their heads around the fact that Robert wasted money and Aerys II did not. Quote Not compared to the scale of a realm's finances. Those things are the sort of expenses a single House might have to undertake to host, which is small relative to the central government. How do you know that? Do you know how the finances of the Westerosi Crown works in detail? It seems the Crown only pay for things they do, not things their lords do, so tourneys in the capital would be something they have to pay. Quote I would describe that as "irrationality" rather than simply "fear". Aerys seemed to think Tywin was somewhow behind the storm which killed Steffon, which is ridiculous. But he wasn't afraid enough of Tywin to refrain from making crude jokes about his wife, removing the tongue from his Captain of the Guards, and naming Jaime to the KG. Jaime was Aerys' only bodyguard the whole time the rest of the KG was dispatched to the Trident, but Aerys was irrationally unafraid then, and even when he ordered Jaime to kill his own father (after irrationally letting Tywin in). Who is contesting any of that? But you get your chronology wrong. The crude jokes and the tongue-cutting took place prior to Steffon's death. There is a development in the progression of the king's madness which you either don't see or ignore. Quote Wars are the MAIN COST medieval kings face. This rebellion was an existential threat to the monarchy, you had better believe it was expensive. Since the Crown barely did anything they wouldn't have paid many of the costs. Do you think they sent money to Mace or the Stormlords or the Graftons to raise an army? The king would have sent commands, not money. Quote Aerys seems to have personally been more of a dick than his cronies, but they were known to be incompetent lickspittles chosen to laugh at his jokes and not threaten Aerys with Tywin-like competence. Cersei similarly preferred incompetent toadies on her council. Obviously those men weren't as incompetent as you want to believe they were - else the treasury would have been empty, not full. How competent they were can also be seen by the fact that the Mad King is said to have been very generous to people who pleased him, meaning he must have occasionally given lavish gifts and such. Tywin himself would also not have managed the treasury under Aerys II. That would have been the Master of Coin. Whoever served in that office throughout the years certainly would have played as great a role as Tywin to help the king get money. Quote Learning to cut his own hair and nails seems like something a reasonable person might do. Kings don't do stuff like that. Quote That is a question, but it makes more sense after he's spent decades there. It doesn't explain why he went there nor why he stayed. And to be clear - he hadn't spent decades there when Robert became king, just a couple of years. Is that enough time to care enough for the decade-spanning Aegon plan? Would be very odd and bad writing if he had just fallen in love with Westeros, or other such crap. Quote Tyrion mocks Joffrey while also acting to bolster his regime. Having a claim can count a whole lot more than personal merit in receiving political support. Tyrion physically attacked his king multiple times and should have been executed for that. He was undermining his rule while also trying to stabilize it. He tried to be a loyal servant but he wasn't. But the point there just is that there is a narrative reason as to why Dany sees that Illyrio mocks her brother - and the reason is that the reader realizes that this Illyrio guy is not just a nice chap who helps the Targaryens because he gets a lot of money from the Dothraki. He has other hidden motives. And those were there since AGoT. Quote Was Varys at the tourney? Lots of knights volunteered to unmask the KotLT. I don't see any indication that Varys knows more than anyone else about Rhaegar & Lyanna's relationship. We don't know, but we can expect he was there. He would be where the king was. But we know already why Aerys II cared about the mystery knight - because he thought it was Jaime, and he wanted to catch him. This idea that he cared about the knight for other reasons seem to be completely baseless at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Was Varys at the tourney? Lots of knights volunteered to unmask the KotLT. I don't see any indication that Varys knows more than anyone else about Rhaegar & Lyanna's relationship. I don't think we have that information. And a lot of knights is Robert and Richard Lonmouth. And Varys doesn't have to be some place to find out things, he has his spies everywhere. Things with Lyanna (whatever it was) happened too close to her father coming south and her brother's wedding. And there is a reason for that. Her so-called kidnapping happened too close to a significant event that was going to bring down to Riverrun the Warden of the North, possible the Warden of the East, probably the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Brandon's wedding might have brought 4 Great Lords together versus 3 at Harrenhal. I think that's significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: I don't think we have that information. And a lot of knights is Robert and Richard Lonmouth. And Varys doesn't have to be some place to find out things, he has his spies everywhere. He has spies everywhere in King's Landing, not so many in the rest of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 5 hours ago, frenin said: He has spies everywhere in King's Landing, not so many in the rest of the country. Fair enough. I'll phrase it another way. Varys has spies where the story calls for him to have spies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 19 hours ago, Lord Varys said: They would have had one in Varys himself and/or Illyrio. Or they could have just made one up. When you have power and seize a throne by force legitimacy comes later. A eunuch is not a viable candidate for king. And the aristocracy of Westeros aren't going to permit a Pentoshi cheesemonger to stay on the throne. The Golden Company by itself was not enough to dominate Westeros, and their perceived legitimacy had only gone down with time. Quote He could believe in things like that if he is Westerosi by birth with a blood tie to the royal dynasty we are talking about Believe in the divine right of kings is not encoded in anyone's genetics, it's cultural. And Varys was born into slavery. Quote Aerys II burned some people, but his reign was all peaceful and quiet and prosperous, never mind what happened to the Darklyns and Hollards I think the Defiance at Duskendale is sufficient to make it not "all peaceful and quiet". Quote My point is that Cersei has gone on record saying she believed for years was her best friend at court when she first came there Who was her best friend? Varys? Quote That is just nonsense. Littlefinger had nothing to do with the state the treasury was in when he took over. Robert spent all the gold he stole from the Targaryens. We don't know what state the treasury was in prior to LF taking over. And I know you don't want a rehash of the conversation in the Robert thread, but we know from Tyrion looking into the books as Master of Coin that LF didn't believe in letting the treasury just sit there and instead put it to work in various moneymaking ventures Tyrion couldn't wrap his head around (and was suspicious of). Those books don't indicate to Tyrion that Robert was spending extravagantly, but admittedly they are impenetrable. That's not "just nonsense", that's the text. Quote Prior to that, after Duskendale. Who, a couple of lords who provoked him after Harrenhal? Aside from that, perhaps some servants and grooms, and lords of council, and the criminals brought before him for trial. Big deal. A man not leaving his castle cannot even terrorize his own city. He wouldn't know what's going on out there. Funny you mention "his own city", since we know from Jaime he had placed wildfire all over it and tried to light it. And a king doesn't need magic psychic powers to personally know what's going on elsewhere, he has people who work for him. Quote How do you know that? Do you know how the finances of the Westerosi Crown works in detail? It seems the Crown only pay for things they do, not things their lords do, so tourneys in the capital would be something they have to pay. We know that Westerosi houses other than the crown host tourneys. But the crown has vastly higher revenues, because they are collecting from an entire continent. The crown needs such revenues to pay for things like wars, which are the primary expense of a medieval monarch. Quote Who is contesting any of that? But you get your chronology wrong. The crude jokes and the tongue-cutting took place prior to Steffon's death. There is a development in the progression of the king's madness which you either don't see or ignore. There is a progression in the king's madness, but it doesn't proceed via him getting more cautious about Tywin. Naming Jaime to the KG was specifically to spite Tywin, and having Tywin's son as a bodyguard makes no sense at all if you're afraid of him. Quote Since the Crown barely did anything they wouldn't have paid many of the costs. Do you think they sent money to Mace or the Stormlords or the Graftons to raise an army? The king would have sent commands, not money. Medieval kingdoms did not have their own standing armies and would rely on their vassals for troops during wars, but they would still have to pay to keep them in the field. Robert's rebellion lasted for roughly a year, which is well beyond any customary length of military service. Quote Obviously those men weren't as incompetent as you want to believe they were - else the treasury would have been empty, not full. That's not the only way to determine incompetence (although since the king lost a rebellion, competency might have entailed spending more of it to stay in charge). Aegon IV was known for his "willful misrule", and he gave away a dragon egg along with the sword Blackfyre, but we don't hear about Daeron II inheriting an empty treasury (Aegon did attempt to invade Dorne twice, but it didn't last as long as an actual war). Quote How competent they were can also be seen by the fact that the Mad King is said to have been very generous to people who pleased him, meaning he must have occasionally given lavish gifts and such. The Mad King giving lavish gifts doesn't establish anyone's competence. Quote Kings don't do stuff like that. Kings who have other people do it for them don't, nobody just lets their fingernails just grow forever. Quote Is that enough time to care enough for the decade-spanning Aegon plan? Would be very odd and bad writing if he had just fallen in love with Westeros, or other such crap. His initial actions could have been more opportunistic, but as he spent more time near the center of power he came to think of how much better he could run things and felt more personal investment in the plot. Quote Tyrion physically attacked his king multiple times and should have been executed for that. He was undermining his rule while also trying to stabilize it. He tried to be a loyal servant but he wasn't. Tyrion slapped Joffrey because Joffrey is a child insufficiently disciplined by his parents. Without Tyrion, Joffrey would have lost the throne to Stannis. Tywin also speaks dismissively of Joffrey, and like Tyrion it's his competence that permits the regime to continue. Quote But he there point just is that there is a narrative reason as to why Dany sees that Illyrio mocks her brother - and the reason is that the reader realizes that this Illyrio guy is not just a nice chap who helps the Targaryens because he gets a lot of money from the Dothraki. The people keeping in Joffrey in power are not, for the most part, "nice". In fact, support for someone like him in the first place can be taken as evidence against someone's niceness. 11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: I don't think we have that information. And a lot of knights is Robert and Richard Lonmouth. And Varys doesn't have to be some place to find out things, he has his spies everywhere. If he dispatched spies to keep a look out for anything interesting at the tourney, did they have orders to pass along any such information to Rhaegar? I'd expect Varys to personally decide to whom each secret should be doled out, if at all. Quote Things with Lyanna (whatever it was) happened too close to her father coming south and her brother's wedding. And there is a reason for that. Her so-called kidnapping happened too close to a significant event that was going to bring down to Riverrun the Warden of the North, possible the Warden of the East, probably the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Brandon's wedding might have brought 4 Great Lords together versus 3 at Harrenhal. I think that's significant. Lyanna herself had a wedding coming up. She had to act in advance of that. The Starks gathering in the Riverlands for Brandon's wedding is a good reason for her to be there. 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Lord Varys Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: A eunuch is not a viable candidate for king. And the aristocracy of Westeros aren't going to permit a Pentoshi cheesemonger to stay on the throne. The Golden Company by itself was not enough to dominate Westeros, and their perceived legitimacy had only gone down with time. Who cares? They could have still tried. If Varys had gone to KL to destroy the Targaryens he should have had a plan what to do once that was done. Especially if he was actually the true father of Robert's Rebellion - which he would be if he was the one fueling Aerys' paranoia. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Believe in the divine right of kings is not encoded in anyone's genetics, it's cultural. And Varys was born into slavery. And that means he didn't know who he is and who his parents were? 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I think the Defiance at Duskendale is sufficient to make it not "all peaceful and quiet". Nope, that was a minor affair that had no effect on the government and the Realm at large. Things continued as before and there wasn't even a battle. Just a bunch of executions. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Who was her best friend? Varys? According to Cersei, Varys was her best friend at court, yes, and she believed that for years. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: We don't know what state the treasury was in prior to LF taking over. And I know you don't want a rehash of the conversation in the Robert thread, but we know from Tyrion looking into the books as Master of Coin that LF didn't believe in letting the treasury just sit there and instead put it to work in various moneymaking ventures Tyrion couldn't wrap his head around (and was suspicious of). Those books don't indicate to Tyrion that Robert was spending extravagantly, but admittedly they are impenetrable. That's not "just nonsense", that's the text. It is nonsense, because I said that Littlefinger had nothing to do with the king's spending habits before he took over. And we do know that Littlefinger was only brought in because he was a financial wizard - which, in turn, means the Crown was having financial problems long before Littlefinger was brought in. This nobody wouldn't have become Master of Coin if Jon Arryn hadn't been in need to find a man to give Robert what he wanted - more money. And I really don't care about conspiracy theory ideas that nobody on the Small Council knew where the money of the king went - Littlefinger say that the Master of Coin provides the money, and the king and the Hand spend it. Nobody ever contradicts that. No sane person doubts that Littlefinger and Varys are embezzling the Crown with various schemes (one of them being paying royal officials that don't exist), but this doesn't mean Littlefinger could actually empty the royal treasury without anyone noticing it. That would be insane. As insane as the idea that the Iron Throne would take huge loans from the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Faith, and the Iron Bank without the Hand and the king signing off on that. That's not something the Master of Coin could authorize. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Funny you mention "his own city", since we know from Jaime he had placed wildfire all over it and tried to light it. And a king doesn't need magic psychic powers to personally know what's going on elsewhere, he has people who work for him. So are we imagining an army of evil advisers and spies now, who had nothing better to do than informing the king about the treason committed by the bakers and barbers and whores of the city? A king in seclusion is dependent on his advisers and servants and officials for information, and there is no indication that Varys and others had the king execute armies of innocent Kingslanders. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: We know that Westerosi houses other than the crown host tourneys. But the crown has vastly higher revenues, because they are collecting from an entire continent. The crown needs such revenues to pay for things like wars, which are the primary expense of a medieval monarch. Wars are definitely not the primary expense of a Westerosi monarch since very few Westerosi monarchs ever fought wars. Of course the lords host tourneys, but as Harrenhal demonstrates - there are tourneys and tourneys. Some tourneys only very wealthy people can finance. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: There is a progression in the king's madness, but it doesn't proceed via him getting more cautious about Tywin. Naming Jaime to the KG was specifically to spite Tywin, and having Tywin's son as a bodyguard makes no sense at all if you're afraid of him. Perhaps the plan of the king and Varys actually was to get Tywin to resign? Thus the king no longer had any reason to fear for his life? 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Medieval kingdoms did not have their own standing armies and would rely on their vassals for troops during wars, but they would still have to pay to keep them in the field. Robert's rebellion lasted for roughly a year, which is well beyond any customary length of military service. There is no indication that anyone is ever paid for their services in war. When Robb calls his banners the men joining him do it because it is their duty - they are not paid to do that. And it is also made clear that they will not hang around forever if their lord is not going to march to war. In any case, though, your point is irrelevant. We know Aerys II left a full treasury, in spite of there being a war. I don't see a reason to care about your idea that the war should have been costly when it wasn't. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's not the only way to determine incompetence (although since the king lost a rebellion, competency might have entailed spending more of it to stay in charge). Aegon IV was known for his "willful misrule", and he gave away a dragon egg along with the sword Blackfyre, but we don't hear about Daeron II inheriting an empty treasury (Aegon did attempt to invade Dorne twice, but it didn't last as long as an actual war). It is a criteria I use - accept it or ignore it, but it is actually a rather important sign of proper government that you are able to control the finances of your own state. Aerys II was mad but he wasn't as ineffective and incompetent a ruler to allow his advisers and officials to steal from him, nor did he himself beggar the Crown. Losing the Rebellion was a close thing. Rhaegar could have won the Trident - money wasn't the deciding factor there. It doesn't seem to have been a factor at all. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: The Mad King giving lavish gifts doesn't establish anyone's competence. It establishes that Aerys II could manage his finances infinitely better than Robert the Fool because he had a lot of gold left when he died, unlike the fat drunkard - despite the fact that he also made lavish gifts to people he trusted. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Kings who have other people do it for them don't, nobody just lets their fingernails just grow forever. There is a reason the man is called 'the Mad King'. Although I'd say quite a few monarchs somewhat less deranged would refuse to cut their nails themselves (much less make themselves fools in front of mirror trying to cut their hair with medieval instruments) because that's how they were brought up. A king doing such things himself doesn't need servants ... but a king has servants so they do what their job descriptions says they do. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: His initial actions could have been more opportunistic, but as he spent more time near the center of power he came to think of how much better he could run things and felt more personal investment in the plot. In what plot? There was no Aegon plot before there was an Aegon plot. If Varys wanted to run things he could have teamed up with one of the Baratheons. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Tyrion slapped Joffrey because Joffrey is a child insufficiently disciplined by his parents. Without Tyrion, Joffrey would have lost the throne to Stannis. Tywin also speaks dismissively of Joffrey, and like Tyrion it's his competence that permits the regime to continue. Tywin and the Tyrells and Littlefinger saved Joffrey, not Tyrion. Stannis may have sacked the city, but chances are pretty good that he wouldn't have taken the Red Keep by the time Tywin and the Tyrells showed up. Joffrey is the king - his person is inviolable. When Tyrion slapped him in ACoK he should have died for that. In fact, he also should have lost the hand which struck Prince Joffrey back in AGoT and would have if the old laws had been properly upheld. Tyrion has no royal blood, he is just a brother of the queen, not a brother to the king. He has no right to beat Prince Joffrey. Tywin never speaks dismissively of Joff. He is concerned about his behavior and treats him like a child, but he doesn't insult him in public or in private. Instead, he seems to secretly enjoy it when his royal grandson publicly humiliates Tyrion. 7 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: The people keeping in Joffrey in power are not, for the most part, "nice". In fact, support for someone like him in the first place can be taken as evidence against someone's niceness. I'm talking about Dany, Viserys III, and Illyrio there, not Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 22 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Who cares? They could have still tried. Not everything is worth trying, particularly invading another country. A lot of GC have died from such attempts, at times where they thought they did have a chance of taking over. Their own numbers aren't sufficient, so they need allies, and they certainly weren't going to have the Martells at that point in time. Quote And that means he didn't know who he is and who his parents were? We don't know anything about his parents, but we know he was sold to a troupe of mummers as a child, and I think we can assume he was separated from them at that point. As Nietzche would put it, he'd be inculcated in "slave morality". Varys contrasts Aegon with Tommen, saying the latter has been taught kingship is his "right" while the former has had a modest upbringing and taught it is his "duty". This would fit with Varys not sharing the aristocratic ethos. And from what we see of Aegon, he does indeed place less importance on station of birth than aristocrats like Jon Connington, although we haven't heard him espouse utilitarian justifications for his rule. Quote Nope, that was a minor affair that had no effect on the government and the Realm at large. Tywin wouldn't consider it a "minor affair" when vassals defy their lord. Killing kingsguard and kidnapping the king to be held under siege wouldn't be considered a "minor affair" by anyone. And Aerys' increasing paranoia has been attributed to it, so it did affect governance and the realm. Quote According to Cersei, Varys was her best friend at court, yes, and she believed that for years She said Varys "played the same game with me, when I first wed Robert", and that is the context in which she refers to thinking of him as her "truest" friend. Not when she was in KL with Tywin, prior to marrying Robert. I suppose there are different senses in which we can refer to her "first coming to court", but only one of them is relevant to convincing Jaime to join the KG. If Varys had convinced her to have Jaime join and then that resulted in Tywin leaving and the two of them being separated, you'd think she'd reconsider the value of Varys' advice. On the other hand, she doesn't seem good at learning from her mistakes. Quote It is nonsense, because I said that Littlefinger had nothing to do with the king's spending habits before he took over. And we do know that Littlefinger was only brought in because he was a financial wizard - which, in turn, means the Crown was having financial problems long before Littlefinger was brought in. No it doesn't. Littlefinger had increased revenues under Gulltown, why wouldn't Jon Arryn want to promote somebody who had demonstrated effectiveness? The crown doesn't say "No thanks, we don't need more money, so we should go with someone less competent". Raising revenue was quite difficult in the medieval era, they would value someone who could do it well at any time. Quote This nobody wouldn't have become Master of Coin if Jon Arryn hadn't been in need to find a man to give Robert what he wanted - more money. Jaehaerys appointed Rego Draz, a Pentoshi born into poverty, which is even lower than a minor Westerosi noble like LF. He even continued practicing a foreign religion. Ronnel Penrose's duties were performed by his wife. Tyrion is an ugly dwarf disliked by his own family. Aristocrats typically have stewards to manage household finances for them. Other families look down on the Freys as "coin counters". Master of Coin is a small council position, so higher than a steward, but there's precedent for giving a position at odds with the warrior ethos (like Master of Whisperers, the only spot to openly go to women so far) to someone who doesn't fit the ideal of the aristocratic class. Jon Arryn listened to Lysa when he appointed LF to Gulltown, and we have no reason to believe Gulltown's revenues were in shambles prior to that. Quote And I really don't care about conspiracy theory ideas that nobody on the Small Council knew where the money of the king went - Littlefinger say that the Master of Coin provides the money, and the king and the Hand spend it. Nobody ever contradicts that. LF did indeed always manage to provide whatever coin the crown needed, including for the tourney, even if the treasury was officially "empty". What others can't understand is LF's schemes for increasing revenues, which involve putting the treasury to work rather than letting it sit idle. Since he seemed to be successful, and he could always provide whatever coin was needed, nobody complained. Quote No sane person doubts that Littlefinger and Varys are embezzling the Crown with various schemes (one of them being paying royal officials that don't exist), but this doesn't mean Littlefinger could actually empty the royal treasury without anyone noticing it. That would be insane. As insane as the idea that the Iron Throne would take huge loans from the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Faith, and the Iron Bank without the Hand and the king signing off on that. That's not something the Master of Coin could authorize. I expect they did sign off, and accepted LF's claims about how he was multiplying all those dragons. And I'm not saying he wasn't multiplying those dragons either, which was why all those different lenders were willing to give him loans (monarchs had serious problems borrowing money up until the Glorious Revolution due to the justified fear that they wouldn't pay up). It's precisely because the scale of his embezzlement is small (even if it is obviously noticeable) relative to the revenues he's bringing in that he can get away with it. Precisely because pre-modern states had trouble raising revenue, it was normal for officials to be compensated via means that we would today think of as "corruption". Quote So are we imagining an army of evil advisers and spies now, who had nothing better to do than informing the king about the treason committed by the bakers and barbers and whores of the city? Aerys is insanely paranoid, he can come up with schemes himself even if they don't exist. Quote A king in seclusion is dependent on his advisers and servants and officials for information, and there is no indication that Varys and others had the king execute armies of innocent Kingslanders. Aerys placed wildfire all over the city without Varys' knowledge. When one of his lickspittle appointees found out and objected, Aerys burned him and replaced him with someone more willing. Quote Wars are definitely not the primary expense of a Westerosi monarch since very few Westerosi monarchs ever fought wars. What fraction? Quote Perhaps the plan of the king and Varys actually was to get Tywin to resign? Thus the king no longer had any reason to fear for his life? Appointing your enemy's son as a bodyguard would normally be a reason to fear for your life! Tywin had even offered to resign before, but the king refused to accept his resignation. Quote When Robb calls his banners the men joining him do it because it is their duty - they are not paid to do that. And it is also made clear that they will not hang around forever if their lord is not going to march to war. As noted, there's a limited length of time during which vassals would consider military service to be their duty owed to their lord. Robert's rebellion lasted multiples of that. Robb called his banners to rescue his father, which was not something expected to take a long time. And his vassals turned on him as the war dragged on. Quote It is a criteria I use - accept it or ignore it If it's a criteria which doesn't flag the most notoriously bad kings in Westerosi history, shouldn't we reject it? Quote Losing the Rebellion was a close thing. Rhaegar could have won the Trident - money wasn't the deciding factor there. It doesn't seem to have been a factor at all. The loyalists lost every battle but Ashford, which wasn't conclusive. If the fate of the regime is coming down to a "close" battle and you have a full treasury, what are you doing!? Quote It establishes that Aerys II could manage his finances infinitely better than Robert the Fool because he had a lot of gold left when he died, unlike the fat drunkard - despite the fact that he also made lavish gifts to people he trusted. Making lavish gifts to friends doesn't establish competence in Aerys or Robert (it's also unlikely to make a dent in the royal finances unless you're giving away sources of tax revenue). Manufacturing a rebellion where there was none and appointing incompetents who lose the war for you is mismanagement. Quote There is a reason the man is called 'the Mad King'. Precisely. It's pointless trying to rationalize what he became. Quote In what plot? There was no Aegon plot before there was an Aegon plot. Varys had been an Aerys loyalist to the end and didn't know his position would be secure under Robert. Having a rival candidate for the throne in his pocket would be in his self interest. Quote If Varys wanted to run things he could have teamed up with one of the Baratheons. He's not well liked or trusted enough to actually run things. Stannis certainly didn't want any Aerys loyalists around. Quote Tywin and the Tyrells and Littlefinger saved Joffrey, not Tyrion. Stannis may have sacked the city, but chances are pretty good that he wouldn't have taken the Red Keep by the time Tywin and the Tyrells showed up. The regime was being abandoned when it looked like they were losing. That would have happened much sooner without Tyrion's defenses. And Tyrion dispatched LF to make an alliance with the Tyrells (over Cersei's objection). Cersei was acting to undermine Joffrey, however unintentionally, while Tyrion was shoring up the regime. Quote Joffrey is the king - his person is inviolable. When Tyrion slapped him in ACoK he should have died for that. In fact, he also should have lost the hand which struck Prince Joffrey back in AGoT and would have if the old laws had been properly upheld. A law which prohibits the disciplining of children because they are royal is in no need of proper upholding. Joffrey's parents should have been disciplining him, so while Cersei is threatening to respond to that with murder in Robert's sleep, his uncle is a good substitute. Quote Tywin never speaks dismissively of Joff. He is concerned about his behavior and treats him like a child, but he doesn't insult him in public or in private. When Tywin says ""There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid", he is correcting Cersei's characterization of Joffrey as "willful", and thus saying he is stupid. And when he says directly to Joffrey "any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all", he's already spelled out the implication for me. Quote Instead, he seems to secretly enjoy it when his royal grandson publicly humiliates Tyrion. When Tyrion is calling Joffrey a monster and implicitly threatening him, Tywin doesn't seem to care. Instead he rebukes Joffrey and Cersei. Tywin sent Tyrion to KL in the first place because he didn't trust Cersei to run things, particularly after the terrible decisions made at the beginning of Joffrey's reign. Tyrion counteracting her and Joffrey's stupidity is precisely what he was supposed to be doing, and as far as Tywin was concerned Tyrion had done as expected (although not enough had been done in terms of teaching Joffrey a "sharp lesson"). Quote I'm talking about Dany, Viserys III, and Illyrio there, not Joffrey. This is reasoning by analogy. Political candidates get support for a number of reasons. "Niceness" does not rank highly among them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullrout Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 5/31/2020 at 9:17 PM, frenin said: I wonder why people feel the need to exaggerate. Guest right came to Westeros with the First Men. If that Targ sentiment was that strong, Viserys, Aegon would be dead, would sit on the Iron Throne. Half the realm were willing to stake their fortunes and lives. They fought to keep Aerys on the throne. Too bad they lost though. Ser Willem gave up his life for the Targaryen heirs. Varys is risking his for them. Meanwhile, nobody seems willing to die to defend guest rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 8 hours ago, Bullrout said: Half the realm were willing to stake their fortunes and lives. They fought to keep Aerys on the throne. Too bad they lost though. Ser Willem gave up his life for the Targaryen heirs. Varys is risking his for them. Meanwhile, nobody seems willing to die to defend guest rights. No, they are willing to kill for it and guests rights being broken caused and uproar through all the Kingdom. Varys is acting by pure self interest. On 6/2/2020 at 3:12 AM, Lord Varys said: Tywin and the Tyrells and Littlefinger saved Joffrey, not Tyrion. Stannis may have sacked the city, but chances are pretty good that he wouldn't have taken the Red Keep by the time Tywin and the Tyrells showed up. If not for Tyrion, Tywin would be chasing down Robb in the Westerlands while Stannis took the city. It was Tyrion who saw that the Tyrells could be won over and sent Petyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Fenimore Cooper XXII Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 On 5/31/2020 at 11:17 PM, FictionIsntReal said: Aerys murdered people without trial. There was nothing about "deserving" anything, and Brandon was an impetuous hothead rather than a conspirator. Robert and Ned hadn't done anything, and their heads were demanded merely for being guilty by association. Trials were not necessary for those executions. And Brandon Stark deserved to die. No lord would tolerate somebody entering their keep and making threats. Today, that idiot would be shot if he tried to enter a home and making threats to kill the son of the house. Like I said, if they were plotting against Aerys. If they were then they deserve to get executed for treason. We have no proof as a reader but it may be revealed later on that Aerys had proof. Robert and Ned were old to know what their elders were up to. And if they knew and chose not to report it to their king it is treason. They should die for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 On 6/2/2020 at 9:05 PM, Bullrout said: Half the realm were willing to stake their fortunes and lives. They fought to keep Aerys on the throne. They fought for the status quo, which is normal in a war. After Aerys died almost everybody (Tower of Joy being the exception) accepted Robert and stopped fighting. Quote Ser Willem gave up his life for the Targaryen heirs Didn't he die of natural causes? He gave up life in Westeros for them. Quote Meanwhile, nobody seems willing to die to defend guest rights. The Brotherhood Without Banners have been willing to die to avenge all sorts of transgressions. And Stannis is recruiting northmen who are specifically planning to die in the winter to stick it to the Boltons & Freys. 9 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said: Trials were not necessary for those executions. Not necessary if we don't know if they deserved it? Tyrion has repeatedly been able to obtain a trial by combat, since it would be unthinkable to deny that of a noble. Why were those "necessary"? Quote And Brandon Stark deserved to die. No lord would tolerate somebody entering their keep and making threats. Today, that idiot would be shot if he tried to enter a home and making threats to kill the son of the house. Today dueling is far less acceptable. Brandon had already dueled Littlefinger over Catelyn, and nobody was executed. Targaryen royals have engaged in duels to the death. Quote Like I said, if they were plotting against Aerys. If they were then they deserve to get executed for treason. We have no proof as a reader but it may be revealed later on that Aerys had proof. Robert and Ned were old to know what their elders were up to. And if they knew and chose not to report it to their king it is treason. They should die for it. Aerys didn't just execute Brandon Stark, he executed the lords who obeyed his command to come to KL. Under no system of punishment is execution ok because they "might" be guilty. They were denied their right to a trial, so we never received any reason to believe they were guilty. Instead Brandon was ticked that Rhaegar ran off with his sister, so he challenged him, and the fathers of Brandon & his companions simply obeyed Aerys' command. There's no need to invoke any conspiracy. Aerys is crazy enough to think Tywin caused the storm which killed Steffon, and his wife's miscarriages must have been caused by his mistress. Aerys believing in a plot cannot be considered good evidence that such a plot existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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