I don't like how the Summer Isles are potrayed

[Guest]

As a brief disclosure, this is entirely my own opinion. It's likely to be filed with tons of logical fallacies, but nevertheless it's one that I have formed based off my biases and personal tastes. Feel free to disagree with me on this, and I would love to hear your opposing thoughts on this matter.

 

In the books, the Summer Islanders are described as having very little war and violence (and what little war and violence is extremely ritualized to avoid civilian collateral damage), lax sexual norms, equal gender roles, etc.. All in all, just every ideal virtue that a society could have.

 

I really don't like that sort of portrayal. Personally, I just feel like the Summer Isles are just too much of a "Mary Sue" utopia and too reminiscent of the "noble savage" myth for my liking. Especially for ASOIAF's faux-realistic grimdark setting. I wish there was more moral ambiguity and a bit of a dark underbelly to the Summer Islanders.

 

In every culture and society that has existed, there are positive aspects to admire and appreciate, along negatives to be appalled by. Human beings are inherently flawed and morally complex/contradictory creatures, capable both of heartwarming acts of altruism and despicable acts are cruelty. I know this level of introspection belongs to the im14andthisisdeep subreddit, but it really fascinates me on how the world works like that.

 

Please note, I fully understand that the Summer Isles are just a minor location in the series, that only very few characters belong to. I don't expect the Summer Isles to receive the amount of depth as Westeros gets. I just wish there was more to the Summer Isles then a (mostly) pacifistic people that are all "free love", and happen to be skilled seafarers and bowmen.

 

Does anything that I'm saying here makes any sense to you? I'm having a very hard time putting my thoughts on the Summer Isles into words on paper. If not, feel free to tear me apart in the comment section.

 

Edit: I'm going to have to make myself clear here. Please note, my issues with the Summer Islanders have nothing to do with their skin color. I apologize if my post came off as racist, that was not my intention at all. I simply don't believe in idyllic utopias, that seemingly have no negative traits or qualities. That is it.

[The Grey Wolf]

The Summer Isles are part of a wider problem known as "erotic exoticism".

[Prince_Of_SummerIsles]

Some people may find lax attitudes towards sex to be a bad thing.

 

[Vaith]

I partially agree, although making the Summer Islanders warmongers could have equally been regarded as having unfortunate implications.

I would say that Xho shows that the Summer Islanders aren't a peaceful monolith. He has been exiled, as apparently the worst punishment is... but he's constantly asking Robert and Cersei to retake his former principality with the might of the Iron Throne, which doesn't fully line up with the supposed respect for ritual combat, and possibly shows that Yandel is simplifying things a good deal.

[Ran]

Yes, I'm sure Jalabhar Xho could tell us about the negative sides of the Summer Isles . . . from his perspective, in any case. 

The only really utopic society that we know of, if we can say that much, are the Naathi, who (according to what little we're told of their society) seem to have no problems to speak of at all internally, and their only danger is external. This would likely be rendered more complicated if they were brought front-and-center of the narrative, like the Summer Isles would be, but as neither aren't, they aren't.

[John Suburbs]

6 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I partially agree, although making the Summer Islanders warmongers could have equally been regarded as having unfortunate implications.

I would say that Xho shows that the Summer Islanders aren't a peaceful monolith. He has been exiled, as apparently the worst punishment is... but he's constantly asking Robert and Cersei to retake his former principality with the might of the Iron Throne, which doesn't fully line up with the supposed respect for ritual combat, and possibly shows that Yandel is simplifying things a good deal.

This. I have a feeling that the Summer Isles are not as idyllic as we are led to believe. 

[zandru]

Other than Jalabar Xho, the only Summer Islanders we see are those on the trading ships. Are businesspeople, whose main interest is commerce and free market transfers of goods, going to be "warlike" and trying to stir up conflicts?

Also, about the sex thing - remember how the traditional British totally condemned homosexuality with severe penalties for its practice, while at the same time, the British Navy was a hotbed (heh) of buggery?

I hate to be "that guy", but with the current condition of worldwide demonstrations against the police murder of George Floyd (and so many, many others), whinging about how ASOIAF is too nice in its portrayal of black people is just off.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I hate to be "that guy", but with the current condition of worldwide demonstrations against the police murder of George Floyd (and so many, many others), whinging about how ASOIAF is too nice in its portrayal of black people is just off.

This post has nothing to do with the George Flyod incident nor American racial politics in general. I simply don't believe in "idyllic" utopian societies, regardless of the skin color of their inhabitants. I would have the same opinion about the Summer Islanders if they had white skin, were some Asian ethnicity, etc. Truly peaceful societies are just not feasible, and especially feel out of place in a series praised for it's realistic portrayal of the human nature. For the love of god, please don't strawman my post into something it wasn't intended or derail it into a political argument.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

The information fed to Westeros about these culture may be inaccurate.  Dany may stop at the islands on her way to Westeros and discover cannibalism among the island folk.  We just don't know more than sailor's tales.  The good people of Naath may be not all that good.  Making love all day long would lead to unwanted babies.   Do they sacrifice to the butterflies for protection?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

The information fed to Westeros about these culture may be inaccurate.  Dany may stop at the islands on her way to Westeros and discover cannibalism among the island folk.  We just don't know more than sailor's tales.  The good people of Naath may be not all that good.  Making love all day long would lead to unwanted babies.   Do they sacrifice to the butterflies for protection?

Very true indeed. As you mentioned, most of what is known about the Summer Isles (and Naath) by the Westerosi are just fanciful traveler tales. A lot of that has been clouded by either deliberate misinformation or through a long game of telephone. They are most likely not as utopic as the traveler tales have led you to believe.

[broken one]

As far as I remember some Vargo Hoat's brave companions were Summer Islanders, this plus the banished prince plus their skills in archery prevented me from taking impression of "idyllic summer islands"

but it reminds me of problem I have with ships of asoiaf.  If sailings of Summer Islanders are so good (I imagine the Sun Chaser was modeled on them or just similar) - why do others still use inferior types of vessels for maritime trade instead of copying technology? cogs, holks...  the books are full of merchant galleys, merchant galley does not make any sense imho but that's another thing

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I hate to be "that guy", but with the current condition of worldwide demonstrations against the police murder of George Floyd (and so many, many others), whinging about how ASOIAF is too nice in its portrayal of black people is just off

Sorry, but equating a thread about a fictional group of people in a fictional world with the current protests just because of the color of their skin, kind of makes you “that guy”.  

A much more accurate analogy is the plight of the very poor and predominantly white people of King’s Landing and elsewhere that have been dispossessed and suppressed by the Lords of the realm.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't think the Summer Islands are peaceful, Jalabhar Xho was exiled from his homeland and he is asking the help of the Iron Throne to get his throne back, I am pretty sure there are wars going on just like there are wars in Westeros an Essos. We just don't have a lot of information about them, considering the Summer Islanders are kind of a secretive people.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Otherdude said:

For the love of god, please don't strawman my post into something it wasn't intended or derail it into a political argument.

My apologies. Things have just gotten a little sensitive in the US in recent years.

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

kind of makes you “that guy”.  

I didn't deny it; I just felt compelled to bring it up. At least, I've managed to draw the line at "Hitler"! (Which, admittedly, is not saying much... nor would Hitler be appropriate in this thread, anyway.)

I'm with the many others who point out that the reputation of the Summer Isles for being an idyllic utopia is probably exaggerated. We hear it from Summer Islanders themselves, who are trying to ingratiate themselves to Samwell and by extension, the Citadel. At best, it's an ideal, an aspiration.

In short, don't blame GRRM - he's given plenty of indications that the Summer Islands are more complicated than merely being island paradises. And also, not necessarily just islands.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

People need to go deep into the lore to know all the details, but the Summer Isles aren't the main focus of the story, it is the same why we don't hear much of Asshai or Yi Ti and places far away, they are far away and news take a long time to reach far away places. Daenerys didn't even know Robert was dead until she was in Qarth, if I am not mistaken.

[The Mountain that Cries]

I kinda agree with this but i feel this idea of the Summer Islands and there utopia is a false idea that that most people in this world would believe just because most of these people live in utter shit unless born in to money, When your faced with devastation on a daily bases stories are easy to believe. Look at Sansa and her childish belief in knights, love and honor. She is super privileged and has the best of everything now consider never really knowing where your gonna eat and if your gonna be a useless death in war or if your gonna be raped at any givin time and your hear stories of a far off island where everyone is safe happy and live without fear. You could easily believe that.

And lets never forget that a lot of Sailor's are lair's and all slavers are lairs and that most of the info relayed to us about the summer islands probably came from sailors/slaver's. I know this i a big guess as we truly don't get much info where these stories actually come from.

Do the Iron born truly drown and die then are brought back by the power of the drowned god or can Rob turn in to a werewolf, or are these just stories that people tell to scary the shit out of people based on misunderstood beliefs or the melding of camp stories. These are just examples of things a lot of people there believe. 

[Aldarion]

15 hours ago, Otherdude said:

As a brief disclosure, this is entirely my own opinion. It's likely to be filed with tons of logical fallacies, but nevertheless it's one that I have formed based off my biases and personal tastes. Feel free to disagree with me on this, and I would love to hear your opposing thoughts on this matter.

 

In the books, the Summer Islanders are described as having very little war and violence (and what little war and violence is extremely ritualized to avoid civilian collateral damage), lax sexual norms, equal gender roles, etc.. All in all, just every ideal virtue that a society could have.

 

I really don't like that sort of portrayal. Personally, I just feel like the Summer Isles are just too much of a "Mary Sue" utopia and too reminiscent of the "noble savage" myth for my liking. Especially for ASOIAF's faux-realistic grimdark setting. I wish there was more moral ambiguity and a bit of a dark underbelly to the Summer Islanders.

 

In every culture and society that has existed, there are positive aspects to admire and appreciate, along negatives to be appalled by. Human beings are inherently flawed and morally complex/contradictory creatures, capable both of heartwarming acts of altruism and despicable acts are cruelty. I know this level of introspection belongs to the im14andthisisdeep subreddit, but it really fascinates me on how the world works like that.

 

Please note, I fully understand that the Summer Isles are just a minor location in the series, that only very few characters belong to. I don't expect the Summer Isles to receive the amount of depth as Westeros gets. I just wish there was more to the Summer Isles then a (mostly) pacifistic people that are all "free love", and happen to be skilled seafarers and bowmen.

 

Does anything that I'm saying here makes any sense to you? I'm having a very hard time putting my thoughts on the Summer Isles into words on paper. If not, feel free to tear me apart in the comment section.

 

Edit: I'm going to have to make myself clear here. Please note, my issues with the Summer Islanders have nothing to do with their skin color. I apologize if my post came off as racist, that was not my intention at all. I simply don't believe in idyllic utopias, that seemingly have no negative traits or qualities. That is it.

Long story short? In a medieval setting, with a medieval technology, society which followed Summer Islands' model would literally fall apart. And that is accounting for the fact that real Middle Ages were far less violent and discriminatory than we (and George Martin) like to think.

[Lord Varys]

TWoIaF does not only exoticise far away places like Yi Ti, Leng, or the Summer Isles, but also ephemeral cultures like the Ironborn (although we do have an aboriginal archmaester telling part of their history there), the Dornish, the Northmen (and especially there the crannogmen and Skagosi), and, of course, the wildlings.

This is a trend the Yandel narrator continues very much with the cultures outside Westeros. This is intentional exoticism, I assume, although I imagine @Ran could tell us more about the intention behind the way Yandel talks about different cultures and peoples - and at times even about different species of men (which I found very racist when first reading it - all that crap about Ibbenese not being able to have offspring with other humans, etc.).

And one has to consider that in context a place the Westerosi call 'the Summer Islands' clearly evoke a worldly paradise for them regardless how exactly the people there live - simply because it is a place of eternal summer, not touched or marred by winter. Which in this world is really a big deal. Even if the Summer Islanders were a very war-like people life there would be much better than in Westeros simply because there is no winter there - or no winter that includes snow and ice. If reports come from the Summer Isles telling that war on the islands is rare and always done in those ritualistic battles then this would be something that fits into a 'worldly paradise' narrative, but might not be the whole truth

The actual Summer Islanders we meet in the books are not all nice people. Black Balaq commands the archers in the Golden Company, Jalabhar Xho is unhappy with his exile and apparently wants to convince Robert to help him with an invasion, Chataya turns her own daughter Alayaya into a whore (which isn't a decent profession in King's Landing) and exploits the other whores in her brothel the same way the proprietor of any other brothel in Westeros does. There is nothing voluntary about the sexual services these women provide.

The crew of the Cinnamon Wind coaxes Samwell into sexual activities as well - which certainly do push his boundaries and might eventually be detrimental to his well-being thanks to his vows. Not to mention that they are not altruistic enough to just allow Sam and company tag along - they want money in exchange for their help.

We also know the Summer Islanders are very secretive about their maps and the lands they discovered (they could have trade relations and colonies down in the south or even beyond the Sunset Sea), that they were not nice enough to Nymeria and her people to convince them to stay, and that they are more than capable to defend themselves and take on pirates and raiders of any kind.

Considering that they seem to have been a very insular culture for most of their history - and seem to have no problems with resources, bad seasons, etc. - I don't think the way they settle things doesn't strike me as very odd. What reason for war could there be if they don't have to conquer new territories/resources?

The whole temple sex thing also seems to fit well with historical temple prostitution and stuff. As a culture the Summer Islanders are less prude and more open about sexuality, but it is definitely not an ideal culture where young people are encouraged to see it as a duty to have sex with other people. That would certainly put pressure on at least some of them.

In that sense I'd say the Summer Isles are not as idyllic as they seem to appear.

[Back door hodor]

I never got the impression that the isles were some violence free utopia personally. The name itself obviously has a positive connotation, and I certainly have no doubt they are beautiful, They are simply too remote for we the readers to know thier politics and the Inner workings of thier society. We know they make really good bows, and have superior shipbuilding and navigation technology, one of which comes from a wood native to the Isles and no where else, that's about it.

As others have said Xho is a political exile and we see many martial Summer Islanders in the series. The attitude toward sex is not presented as positive or negative in my opinion, just as "other" or different.....and very, very, possibly not accurate.

 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

I do wonder to what degree those islands will be affected by the long winter.