I don't like how the Summer Isles are potrayed

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

I do wonder to what degree those islands will be affected by the long winter.  

There might be some effects there this winter when the Others come, but it does not strike me as very likely the people on the Summer Islands or in Sothoryos are going to be affected by that very much - they might, if the good guys lose and the Others turn Dorne into an icy wastelands, and freeze the Narrow Sea to march to Essos and eventually on through the Summer Sea to the lands in the father south.

But that's not likely to happen.

I also don't think the Long Night affected Sothoryos and the Summer Islands in a meaningful way.

[GoldenGail3]

Wasn’t their slavery there? A woman heard of this. 

[sweetsunray]

If you were to complain about "Naath" I'd agree. For the Summer Islanders, I don't get the impression of the "utopian savage" from the books. Exotic, to be sure, which makes sense in the setting - to Westerosi who've never set a fout outside of Westeros, Summer Islanders would be exotic, but so is anyone whose culture differs from the main Faith one.

[Shaera Targaryen]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

TWoIaF does not only exoticise far away places like Yi Ti, Leng, or the Summer Isles, but also ephemeral cultures like the Ironborn (although we do have an aboriginal archmaester telling part of their history there), the Dornish, the Northmen (and especially there the crannogmen and Skagosi), and, of course, the wildlings.

This is a trend the Yandel narrator continues very much with the cultures outside Westeros. This is intentional exoticism, I assume, although I imagine @Ran could tell us more about the intention behind the way Yandel talks about different cultures and peoples - and at times even about different species of men (which I found very racist when first reading it - all that crap about Ibbenese not being able to have offspring with other humans, etc.).

And one has to consider that in context a place the Westerosi call 'the Summer Islands' clearly evoke a worldly paradise for them regardless how exactly the people there live - simply because it is a place of eternal summer, not touched or marred by winter. Which in this world is really a big deal. Even if the Summer Islanders were a very war-like people life there would be much better than in Westeros simply because there is no winter there - or no winter that includes snow and ice. If reports come from the Summer Isles telling that war on the islands is rare and always done in those ritualistic battles then this would be something that fits into a 'worldly paradise' narrative, but might not be the whole truth

The actual Summer Islanders we meet in the books are not all nice people. Black Balaq commands the archers in the Golden Company, Jalabhar Xho is unhappy with his exile and apparently wants to convince Robert to help him with an invasion, Chataya turns her own daughter Alayaya into a whore (which isn't a decent profession in King's Landing) and exploits the other whores in her brothel the same way the proprietor of any other brothel in Westeros does. There is nothing voluntary about the sexual services these women provide.

The crew of the Cinnamon Wind coaxes Samwell into sexual activities as well - which certainly do push his boundaries and might eventually be detrimental to his well-being thanks to his vows. Not to mention that they are not altruistic enough to just allow Sam and company tag along - they want money in exchange for their help.

We also know the Summer Islanders are very secretive about their maps and the lands they discovered (they could have trade relations and colonies down in the south or even beyond the Sunset Sea), that they were not nice enough to Nymeria and her people to convince them to stay, and that they are more than capable to defend themselves and take on pirates and raiders of any kind.

Considering that they seem to have been a very insular culture for most of their history - and seem to have no problems with resources, bad seasons, etc. - I don't think the way they settle things doesn't strike me as very odd. What reason for war could there be if they don't have to conquer new territories/resources?

The whole temple sex thing also seems to fit well with historical temple prostitution and stuff. As a culture the Summer Islanders are less prude and more open about sexuality, but it is definitely not an ideal culture where young people are encouraged to see it as a duty to have sex with other people. That would certainly put pressure on at least some of them.

In that sense I'd say the Summer Isles are not as idyllic as they seem to appear.

Not only is there Alalaya running a brothel with her daughter and the crew of the Cinnamon Wind pressuring Sam into having sex with Gilly, a lot of Summer Islanders are said to spend a year or two as temple prostitutes. Prostitution is considered one of the holiest professions over there and it’s described that way, but I still have questions on how much of a choice it is and if all of the temple prostitutes are post-pubescent. Sex is such an ingrained part of every aspect of their culture and considered such a wonderful thing that perhaps the people of the Summer Isles don't fully understand -- if at all -- the wrongness of infringing on others' consent like this. It doesn't make it ok, just something to consider.

[BlackLightning]

I do wish that Jalabhar Xho had a bigger role in the story.

[Lord Varys]

The Naathi strike me as too fantastic to properly fit in the category of real world colonialism/exotism. TWoIaF aside, their culture is presented to us by one of their own, and what we learn in TWoIaF about them makes them more like some sort of elven species, protected by their own god, and set apart from other human species/peoples in a sense that goes beyond the idea of a primitive utopia or the noble savage in the wild.

But to be sure, I've not read much medieval and ancient literature about places very far away - there are strange Alexander novels which have him meet all kind of weird magical folk.

And unlike a proper paradise Naath is actually very poisonous to outsiders, and we have no idea whether the Naathi really have nothing to do with those evil butterflies or their god preying on other people, or whether that's just the story they want outsiders to believe.

Missandei certainly knows some things about her homeland, but she is a child and wouldn't know the intricaties of her society and culture, nor necessarily share any such information with Dany if that were taboo in her culture.

[SeanF]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:50 PM, zandru said:

Other than Jalabar Xho, the only Summer Islanders we see are those on the trading ships. Are businesspeople, whose main interest is commerce and free market transfers of goods, going to be "warlike" and trying to stir up conflicts?

Also, about the sex thing - remember how the traditional British totally condemned homosexuality with severe penalties for its practice, while at the same time, the British Navy was a hotbed (heh) of buggery?

I hate to be "that guy", but with the current condition of worldwide demonstrations against the police murder of George Floyd (and so many, many others), whinging about how ASOIAF is too nice in its portrayal of black people is just off.

There's one Aubrey/Maturin story where a sailor is caught having sex with a pig on board ship.  They're supposed to execute both the sailor and the pig, but choose to maroon them instead, but on separate islands, as it would be unfair for the pig to remain at the mercy of the sailor.

[Walda]

On 6/2/2020 at 2:12 AM, Shadow of Asshai said:

I don't think the Summer Islands are peaceful, Jalabhar Xho was exiled from his homeland and he is asking the help of the Iron Throne to get his throne back, I am pretty sure there are wars going on just like there are wars in Westeros an Essos. We just don't have a lot of information about them, considering the Summer Islanders are kind of a secretive people.

Yes, archery such a peaceful pasttime, isn't it?

Even traders in their Swan ships practice it

Quote

Kojja Mo was the captain’s daughter, taller than Sam and slender as a spear, with skin as black and smooth as polished jet. She captained the ship’s red archers too, and pulled a double-curved goldenheart bow that could send a shaft four hundred yards.

AFfC Ch.35 Samwell IV

Red archers don't seem to be more pacifistic than archers of another colour.

Nor do they only have defensive roles in trading ships. There are Summer Islanders in the Golden Company

Quote

Black Balaq, a white-haired Summer Islander with skin dark as soot, commanded the company’s archers, as in Blackheart’s day.

ADwD Ch.24 The Lost Lord

and other Sell-sword companies

Quote

These were not the outlaws who had killed Ser Cleos, Jaime realized suddenly. The scum of the earth surrounded them: swarthy Dornishmen and blond Lyseni, Dothraki with bells in their braids, hairy Ibbenese, coal-black Summer Islanders in feathered cloaks. He knew them. The Brave Companions.

ASoS Ch.21 Jaime III

Jalabhar Xho knows what to do with a longbow

Quote

Anguy, an unheralded commoner from the Dornish Marches, won the archery competition, outshooting Ser Balon Swann and Jalabhar Xho at a hundred paces after all the other bowmen had been eliminated at the shorter distances.

AGoT Ch.30 Eddard VII

Sansa knows him only as a courtier, but Cersei has some knowledge of his mission

Quote

“Jalabhar Xho?” Cersei gave a derisive snort. “Begging her for gold and swords to win his homeland back, most like.” Beneath his jewels and feathers, Xho was little more than a wellborn beggar. Robert could have put an end to his importuning for good with one firm “No,” but the notion of conquering the Summer Isles had appealed to her drunken lout of a husband.

AFfC Ch.24 Cersei V

Quote

Jalabhar Xho was the first to petition her that day, as befit his rank as a prince in exile. Splendid as he looked in his bright feathered cloak, he had only come to beg. Cersei let him make his usual plea for men and arms to help him regain Red Flower Vale, then said, “His Grace is fighting his own war, Prince Jalabhar. He has no men to spare for yours just now. Next year, perhaps.” That was what Robert always told him.

AFfC Ch.36 Cersei VIII

The Summer Isles might be famous for birds and spiced wine, but its Goldenheart trees make famous bows and lances, its rare spices are used for poisons as well as rum.

As for the wanton women and the temple prostitution, Meereen, Yunkai, and Astapor also seem that way to Westerosi eyes, and the Dothraki, and the free cities, and the Wildlings. Westeros has a patriarchal culture where it really matters who your daddy is and whether you are a first or second son. Hence the need for women to be chaste before marriage and exclusive after (at least until they have a son). Dornish women are regarded as wanton too. As are baseborn women. The hypersexualisation and objectification of women might have something to do with GRRM going to a Marist boys school, but it might also have to do with having points of view that are male and living with other men in celibacy, or near-celibacy. Of the 22 male points of view, 9 have made vows of celibacy. Bran is too young, Eddard effectively becomes celibate when he takes up his duties as Hand, Davos ditto, Kevan hasn't seen his wife since he left the West either. Theon is a eunuch, JonCon might as well be, and does anyone know what Aeron Greyjoy's deal is? (Rhetorical question, thanks).

There does seem to be a Northern hemisphere bias - Naath and Southeros seem to be equatorial. But I guess, if the other side of Planetos is just coming out of a ten year winter, it kind of screws with the main premise of the book.

[Oak and Iron]

I was just reading another thread about skagos.  The skagosi are about the exact opposite of the summer islanders or so we hear.  THe problem with both these places is that we have not actually been to either of these places.  The summer islands could very easily have pirates or something, that we just don't hear about because it has so little "screen" time.  

Also, I'm not sure Mary-Sue is the correct term for them.  I think the closest we have to a Mary-Sue so far is (F)Aegon perhaps.  From what I know a Mary-Sue is someone that is just good at everything or any skill can just be picked up easily.  Show Arya was a Mary-Sue.  If you've ever read Kingkiller Chronicles, I'd say young Kvothe is a Mary-Sue.

[Springwatch]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:50 PM, zandru said:

Also, about the sex thing - remember how the traditional British totally condemned homosexuality with severe penalties for its practice, while at the same time, the British Navy was a hotbed (heh) of buggery?

You're concerned about hypocrisy?? As far as I know, the Navy was violently intolerant of homosexuals too.

Anyway, have we talked about Summer Isles sex yet?  High status families place their young teenage children as prostitutes for a couple of years - for religious reasons. Chataya and Alayaya are the successful and well-adjusted poster girls for the system. 

I don't personally ask for a lot of realism in the books, but I find this weird. Just so we don't forget it, the system has arisen independently in the slaver cities. More high-ranking, respectable, devout, teenage prostitution. Odd, and uncomfortable.

I think it's a symbolic thing. The south is hot and sexy. The north is cool and pure.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Walda said:

As for the wanton women and the temple prostitution, Meereen, Yunkai, and Astapor also seem that way to Westerosi eyes, and the Dothraki, and the free cities, and the Wildlings. Westeros has a patriarchal culture where it really matters who your daddy is and whether you are a first or second son. Hence the need for women to be chaste before marriage and exclusive after (at least until they have a son). Dornish women are regarded as wanton too. As are baseborn women. The hypersexualisation and objectification of women might have something to do with GRRM going to a Marist boys school, but it might also have to do with having points of view that are male and living with other men in celibacy, or near-celibacy. Of the 22 male points of view, 9 have made vows of celibacy. Bran is too young, Eddard effectively becomes celibate when he takes up his duties as Hand, Davos ditto, Kevan hasn't seen his wife since he left the West either. Theon is a eunuch, JonCon might as well be, and does anyone know what Aeron Greyjoy's deal is? (Rhetorical question, thanks).

I don't think logic and reason are the tools to solve this problem. I think it's a north/south thing. An ice and fire thing.

Aeron is interesting. I'm not sure what the watery gods feel about sex. I'm not sure if Aeron had lots of sex before he 'drowned', but he certainly doesn't seem to feel any desire afterwards.

[Ran]

Just now, Springwatch said:

I don't personally ask for a lot of realism in the books, but I find this weird.

Temple prostitution is recorded on four continents, as far back as ~2000 BC and as recently as the 20th century. So while it seems weird, it's been a part of the story of human civilization for a long time.

Just now, Springwatch said:

Just so we don't forget it, the system has arisen independently in the slaver cities. More high-ranking, respectable, devout, teenage prostitution. Odd, and uncomfortable.

The particular form seen in Slaver's Bay is very much based on the classical image of it as understood by Herodotus's report of the Babylonian practice.

Just now, Springwatch said:

I think it's a symbolic thing. The south is hot and sexy. The north is cool and pure.

I think it's more complicated than that, since there's some differences between various groups in various geographical regions. The Summer Islanders certainly are depicted more positively than the Ghiscari, with the straightforward divider being that the Summer Islanders don't practice slavery and the Ghiscari do. This gets at underlying notions that they have different views on what it means to be humane, what it means to be virtuous and good, what is ethical and moral, what the value of human life is, and so on.

[The Sunland Lord]

It's a tax haven. Guys like Tywin Lannister, Mace Tyrell, and possibly Manderly have secret accounts there. 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Temple prostitution is recorded on four continents, as far back as ~2000 BC and as recently as the 20th century. So while it seems weird, it's been a part of the story of human civilization for a long time.

The particular form seen in Slaver's Bay is very much based on the classical image of it as understood by Herodotus's report of the Babylonian practice.

Interesting, thanks. I will look that up.

I admit I know little about the subject in reality,  but I vaguely remember some documentary journalism about it happening in current times. Within a decade or two. Poor families sometimes gave their daughters to the temple. There was a veneer of sanctity to it, but basically these girls and women were victimised by pimp priests (and I can well believe it was these corrupt local priests that were the problem, rather than the mainstream religion). Anyway, it was a deeply sad situation, but  easier to believe than the high status version in fiction (and Herodotus).

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I think it's more complicated than that, since there's some differences between various groups in various geographical regions. The Summer Islanders certainly are depicted more positively than the Ghiscari, with the straightforward divider being that the Summer Islanders don't practice slavery and the Ghiscari do. This gets at underlying notions that they have different views on what it means to be humane, what it means to be virtuous and good, what is ethical and moral, what the value of human life is, and so on.

A good point, the Summer Islanders may be violent, but they are not cruel.

Sometimes I wonder if Mel is wrong, and there are not two things, but a giant Venn diagram of things - sex, slavery, bloodshed, fire, colours, strength - too many to compute.

I think there are enough indications to give something of a north-south pattern. From the outset, Robert's hedonism makes Ned look puritanical. And the Dornish are more liberated still.  On slavery -  slavery is the bedrock of Qarth and Ghis in the south, but generally in the far north it's not only illegal but also taboo (Braavos; the traditional Ironborn; plus Starks & Mormonts are very severe on slavery). There are exceptions, of course.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Interesting, thanks. I will look that up.

I admit I know little about the subject in reality,  but I vaguely remember some documentary journalism about it happening in current times. Within a decade or two. Poor families sometimes gave their daughters to the temple. There was a veneer of sanctity to it, but basically these girls and women were victimised by pimp priests (and I can well believe it was these corrupt local priests that were the problem, rather than the mainstream religion). Anyway, it was a deeply sad situation, but  easier to believe than the high status version in fiction (and Herodotus).

A good point, the Summer Islanders may be violent, but they are not cruel.

Sometimes I wonder if Mel is wrong, and there are not two things, but a giant Venn diagram of things - sex, slavery, bloodshed, fire, colours, strength - too many to compute.

I think there are enough indications to give something of a north-south pattern. From the outset, Robert's hedonism makes Ned look puritanical. And the Dornish are more liberated still.  On slavery -  slavery is the bedrock of Qarth and Ghis in the south, but generally in the far north it's not only illegal but also taboo (Braavos; the traditional Ironborn; plus Starks & Mormonts are very severe on slavery). There are exceptions, of course.

If you imagine a less patriarchal, more equal society, where you also have a more sex positive attitude, then chances are not that bad that a society would not encourage their young people to do this kind of voluntary work. I mean, if you volunteer for something it is usually something that is held in high esteem in that culture, and George world, like the real world, do not all equally condemn prostitution - the courtesans of Braavos are women held in high regard, too.

Those things aren't less unrelastic than, say, the gender roles of the Jogos Nhai - which do exist in this manner in some real world cultures.

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you imagine a less patriarchal, more equal society, where you also have a more sex positive attitude, then chances are not that bad that a society would not encourage their young people to do this kind of voluntary work. I mean, if you volunteer for something it is usually something that is held in high esteem in that culture, and George world, like the real world, do not all equally condemn prostitution - the courtesans of Braavos are women held in high regard, too.

Those things aren't less unrelastic than, say, the gender roles of the Jogos Nhai - which do exist in this manner in some real world cultures.

I think it's pure fantasy that people of high birth would become temple prostitutes, however.  It's probably considered a step up in the world for a slave, like Melisandre.

Like you, I find nothing good about what Chataya is doing with her daughter, even if she persuades herself it's some kind of sacred calling.  Offering your daughter's body to anybody who can do anything they want to do her, short of killing or maiming her, in return for cash, is not the act of a good mother in any culture.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think it's pure fantasy that people of high birth would become temple prostitutes, however.  It's probably considered a step up in the world for a slave, like Melisandre.

What the Summer Islanders seem to have as per Yandel isn't temple prostitution in a society where slavery is a thing. It is like a temporary voluntary service. I mean, to put it blunty, forcing our young to serve in the military for a year or so, as many modern societies do, twisting them into potential killers, cannot be worse than encouraging them on a voluntary basis to give sexual joy to other people. The concept there is not exploitation of people, especially women, for monetary gain, but the free exchange/giving of sexual pleasure. That is a completely different thing than prostitution as we know it.

How accurate that ideal is in practice on the Summer Isles we don't know, but I'm pretty sure it is different than prostitution elsewhere in Martinworld.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Like you, I find nothing good about what Chataya is doing with her daughter, even if she persuades herself it's some kind of sacred calling.  Offering your daughter's body to anybody who can do anything they want to do her, short of killing or maiming her, in return for cash, is not the act of a good mother in any culture.

There I agree - doing the Summer Islander thing in KL is a twisted thing since Alayaya doesn't get the same gratification and high esteem she would get back on the islands. Instead she is seen as a common whore which isn't a good thing in Westeros. And Chataya can be seen as a shady character because she runs a brothel like everybody else - and not the way it is done back on the Summer Isles.

[SeanF]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What the Summer Islanders seem to have as per Yandel isn't temple prostitution in a society where slavery is a thing. It is like a temporary voluntary service. I mean, to put it blunty, forcing our young to serve in the military for a year or so, as many modern societies do, twisting them into potential killers, cannot be worse than encouraging them on a voluntary basis to give sexual joy to other people. The concept there is not exploitation of people, especially women, for monetary gain, but the free exchange/giving of sexual pleasure. That is a completely different thing than prostitution as we know it.

How accurate that ideal is in practice on the Summer Isles we don't know, but I'm pretty sure it is different than prostitution elsewhere in Martinworld.

There I agree - doing the Summer Islander thing in KL is a twisted thing since Alayaya doesn't get the same gratification and high esteem she would get back on the islands. Instead she is seen as a common whore which isn't a good thing in Westeros. And Chataya can be seen as a shady character because she runs a brothel like everybody else - and not the way it is done back on the Summer Isles.

I understand that, but it seems too much like an erotic fantasy to me.  Rather like Anne Rice's novels, where beautiful young men and women of high birth voluntarily undergo a period of sexual servitude, prior to assuming leadership roles.

What bothers me most about the latter is that the clients are negotiating with the mother, not the daughter.  There will always be those who will offer a high price to do really brutal things. And, I don't think Alayaya would have much of a say in the matter.  In some ways, I think her position would be worse than that of the other prostitutes, who may have families that they can return to.  She's just there to be exploited. 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I understand that, but it seems too much like an erotic fantasy to me.  Rather like Anne Rice's novels, where beautiful young men and women of high birth voluntarily undergo a period of sexual servitude, prior to assuming leadership roles.

One can say that there is a fantasy element to this, but I don't find that very stretching. If you imagine a religious framework/culture which is more sex positive and which really gratifies people who do their best to give other pleasure. I mean, a lot of things are done in our societies because people get gratification out of that. All philantropy wouldn't happen if the people doing it could not bask in the light sympathy and adoration that comes with doing good deeds.

In that culture it is seen as a good thing if people give each other sexual pleasure. In fact, that's part of how they worship their gods.

Whether that's really good for everybody I'm not sure. But I definitely won't say it is bad for everybody or worse than our culture.

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What bothers me most about the latter is that the clients are negotiating with the mother, not the daughter.  There will always be those who will offer a high price to do really brutal things. And, I don't think Alayaya would have much of a say in the matter.  In some ways, I think her position would be worse than that of the other prostitutes, who may have families that they can return to.  She's just there to be exploited. 

I'd expect that Chataya doesn't agree to stuff like that with her daughter, but, as you say, if she were a cruel or uncaring person she would have the power to do so, meaning Alayaya is at her mercy like any other whore is.

But to be sure, we learn that Chataya's is apparently a literal money machine - didn't Anguy lose his entire price money from the archery competion at Chataya's? We don't know how the money is distributed. Does Chataya get most/all of it or are her girls effectively among the richest women in KL? We don't know that, but considering this is one of the top brothels there is certainly a chance that you might get your own manse out of, say, a couple of years of work with Chataya. That wouldn't necessarily that bad of a deal.

Still, if it isn't like that it would be pretty shitty.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I'd expect that Chataya doesn't agree to stuff like that with her daughter, but, as you say, if she were a cruel or uncaring person she would have the power to do so, meaning Alayaya is at her mercy like any other whore is.

But to be sure, we learn that Chataya's is apparently a literal money machine - didn't Anguy lose his entire price money from the archery competion at Chataya's? We don't know how the money is distributed. Does Chataya get most/all of it or are her girls effectively among the richest women in KL? We don't know that, but considering this is one of the top brothels there is certainly a chance that you might get your own manse out of, say, a couple of years of work with Chataya. That wouldn't necessarily that bad of a deal.

Still, if it isn't like that it would be pretty shitty.

High class brothels and gambling tend to go together.  I expect Anguy was fleeced at dice and cards.