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Who forged Ice?

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Do we know how the Mormonts, no wealthier than the Starks, got their sword? IIRC the Lannisters paid theirs in gold. And it was hugely expensive. IMO a few swords got scattered after the Doom. And pirates and whatever got them. At some point, probably after Aegon conquest, a Stark got the head and the sword of someone. Same for the Mormonts.

That or GRRM doesn't care to explain how such number Valyrian swords, long and short, are found there and there.

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2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Do we know how the Mormonts, no wealthier than the Starks, got their sword? IIRC the Lannisters paid theirs in gold. And it was hugely expensive. IMO a few swords got scattered after the Doom. And pirates and whatever got them. At some point, probably after Aegon conquest, a Stark got the head and the sword of someone. Same for the Mormonts.

That or GRRM doesn't care to explain how such number Valyrian swords, long and short, are found there and there.

No, we don't. More likely than not, an foreigner a la Red Kraken got the blade in war and then lost it to a Mormont in war. 

Actually this is a more logical way to get one instead of just buying one. And that's how Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail but that's also what happened to Nightfall, Red Rain and Orphan Maker.

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13 hours ago, frenin said:

Actually this is a more logical way to get one instead of just buying one.

Yeah. The sword gets a new name. Becomes the house's pride. Does as if it belonged to the house since the age of legends. And everyone forget it was taken from a common criminal.

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The sword is not that important.  Ice is not really fitting in with the Stark because it is made from Valyrian Steel, which is an invention of the fire people.  The Starks are of ice.  The loss of Ice is symbolic in that now the Starks have lost everything tying them to fire and warmth.  The Starks are now free to follow their more savage nature.  Ice.  They will fully embrace its meaning.  Vengeful and lacking warmth.  Traitors and breaker of oaths.  Pack animals like their Direwolves.  They will be Kings of Winter again and that is not a good thing.  They will choose to ally themselves with the Others and once again get dominion over the north in return.

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1 hour ago, Van Gogh said:

The sword is not that important.  Ice is not really fitting in with the Stark because it is made from Valyrian Steel, which is an invention of the fire people.  The Starks are of ice.  The loss of Ice is symbolic in that now the Starks have lost everything tying them to fire and warmth.  The Starks are now free to follow their more savage nature.  Ice.  They will fully embrace its meaning.  Vengeful and lacking warmth.  Traitors and breaker of oaths.  Pack animals like their Direwolves.  They will be Kings of Winter again and that is not a good thing.  They will choose to ally themselves with the Others and once again get dominion over the north in return.

There is an old joke in Heresy that the undead army is being raised to protect Bran from Mel and Fiery lot; and I'd suggest Euron as well. That would certainly turn things on it's head.  The king of winter is probably the only one who can control the undead army.  My guess is that he needs the real sword Ice to do it.

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16 hours ago, Van Gogh said:

Ice is not really fitting in with the Stark because it is made from Valyrian Steel, which is an invention of the fire people

Agree. We don't know exactly how Valyrian steel was made. But there seem to be deaths and dark secrets around it. It was so rare, the price to make one would be deterring. Anyway, the Valyrians were not shy of slavery and blood magic and sacrifices.

16 hours ago, Van Gogh said:

They will choose to ally themselves with the Others and once again

Possibly, Likely. The CotF found a way to survive or live with the Others, or have them in rest. I suppose the Starks (and the survivors of the LN) will learn (again) how to live this way.

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Agree. We don't know exactly how Valyrian steel was made. But there seem to be deaths and dark secrets around it. It was so rare, the price to make one would be deterring. Anyway, the Valyrians were not shy of slavery and blood magic and sacrifices.

Here's what I find interesting - from the symbolism of swords:

Quote

'On my honor': Taking an oath of honor upon your sword (pledge, swear). This was done by either gripping the handle of your own sword (remaining in the scabbard), or by kissing the blade of the other persons sword (typically a person of royalty). If such an oath was broken, the individual was to be executed by his own sword.  

 Ned was certainly all about 'honor' and he dies by his own sword.

http://www.glbet-el.org/masonictexte/Symbolism of the Sword.pdf

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

 Ned was certainly all about 'honor' and he dies by his own sword.

Interesting. Which oath was broken? Not the one to support Robert or his heir. IMO he lied to Robert, mainly to protect Cersei's children, even fucking Joffrey. The one to stay North and care for his people? Killing Lady, the creature of his gods?

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My guess is that Ice was made by some valyrian smiths in Valyria and pretty sure that magic was used in forging.  It was, probably, one of last weapon orders made by masters of valyrian steel before the doom, considering the timeline.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Interesting. Which oath was broken? Not the one to support Robert or his heir. IMO he lied to Robert, mainly to protect Cersei's children, even fucking Joffrey. The one to stay North and care for his people? Killing Lady, the creature of his gods?

He does dream of broken promises and the frozen hell reserved for Starks.  But I don't know.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

This is again echoed in Bran's dream of Ned's Ghost:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

This certainly evokes Lyanna and her bed of blood.  Or is he talking about blood as in 'family'? Did Ned break a promise about Jon?

Edited by LynnS

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This certainly evokes Lyanna and her bed of blood

So he would have broken a promise to Lyanna. He certainly protected Jon from Robert. Only other promise he would have broken, would be telling Jon who he is. How bad Ned may feel about it, it was the right thing for sending Jon on his path to the Old Gods and his destiny. IMO, would not call for the retribution of his gods.

But promises. There was more than one. I think of another promise, one to Ashara Dayne.

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On 6/5/2020 at 11:51 AM, Van Gogh said:

The sword is not that important.  Ice is not really fitting in with the Stark because it is made from Valyrian Steel, which is an invention of the fire people.  The Starks are of ice.  The loss of Ice is symbolic in that now the Starks have lost everything tying them to fire and warmth1.  The Starks are now free to follow their more savage nature.  Ice.  They will fully embrace its meaning.  Vengeful and lacking warmth.  Traitors and breaker of oaths.  Pack animals like their Direwolves.  They will be Kings of Winter again and that is not a good thing.  They will choose to ally themselves with the Others and once again get dominion over the north in return.

 

On 6/5/2020 at 1:30 PM, LynnS said:

There is an old joke in Heresy that the undead army is being raised to protect Bran from Mel and Fiery lot; and I'd suggest Euron as well. That would certainly turn things on it's head.  The king of winter is probably the only one who can control the undead army.  My guess is that he needs the real sword Ice to do it2.

1Ice is very important symbolically.  It is cold steel forged by fire.  The human conflict in this epic is not about Daenerys and her dragons versus the White Walkers.  That may happen but it has nothing to do with the conflict within the human heart.  The most immediate reason for why Westeros is in such a sorry state right now is because of the Starks and the Lannisters.   Fire (Targaryens) forged the kingdom into one, bound the families into one kingdom, as fire forged cold steel into swords.  Which is necessary to better the lives of the working class.  Daenerys will need to forge Westeros into one Queendom and make it a part of larger empire.  The Starks and the Lannisters will have to first fight it out again.  The Lannisters won the first round.  I am sure the Starks will win the second and final round. 

A Baratheon (stag) alliance was one cause of ruin for the Starks.  The Lannisters (lion) divided the wolf pack.  On the small scale, it will be a Baratheon (gendry) who will forge the Stark pack again.  Daenerys (Dragon) is playing on a grander scale and will forge the kingdoms into one empire after the snows have receded.  An empire is necessary to keep the prohibition against slavery intact in Essos. 

2I do not care for the Starks.  In my opinion, some of them will turn their backs on Westeros and pursue their own deal with the White Walkers. 

 

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On 6/3/2020 at 8:37 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Hungry Wolf lived about 2000 years ago.

No, closer to 900 years ago. 

Some of the "Hundred Kingdoms" are Andal Houses, and the Tyrells were in the Reach before the Manderlys left. 

 

But that still means it wasnt him. 
 

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

No, closer to 900 years ago. 

Some of the "Hundred Kingdoms" are Andal Houses, and the Tyrells were in the Reach before the Manderlys left. 

 

But that still means it wasnt him. 
 

No, 2000 years ago. He lived during the height of the Andal invasion and is a strong candidate for leading the Rape of the Three Sisters which occurred 2000 years ago and initiated the War Across the Water,  which raged sporadically for the next 1000 years.

Not sure what the Tyrells or Manderlys have to do with dating the life of the Hungry Wolf.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, 2000 years ago. He lived during the height of the Andal invasion and is a strong candidate for leading the Rape of the Three Sisters which occurred 2000 years ago and initiated the War Across the Water,  which raged sporadically for the next 1000 years.

Not sure what the Tyrells or Manderlys have to do with dating the life of the Hungry Wolf.

Its my convoluted logic. Ill try to be more specific and use a better example. 

 

The AGOT Appendix says Riverrun was only built 1000 years ago.  Riverrun(or rather its lands) were granted to House Tully by King Armistead Vance after the Andal invasion. 

The North was the last of the Kingdoms the Andals tried to conquer, so if House Tully has only had riverrun for 1000 years, then Theon Stark was alive less than 1000 years ago. 

It would have taken me a whole page to go through the Tyrell-Gardener --Manderly- Peake - Storm King-riverlands-Hoare scenario, so I thought this was easier, LOL

 

 

                   

 

Edited by dsjj251

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30 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

The North was the last of the Kingdoms the Andals tried to conquer, so if House Tully has only had riverrun for 1000 years, then Theon Stark was alive less than 1000 years ago. 

No it wasn't.

Theon Stark lived during the great wave of Andal conquest and that was 2000 thousands years prior the current story.

 

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

No it wasn't.

Theon Stark lived during the great wave of Andal conquest and that was 2000 thousands years prior the current story.

 

I just explained why that logic is flawed.  You offered nothing to back up your point where as I offered something to back up mine. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

I just explained why that logic is flawed.  You offered nothing to back up your point where as I offered something to back up mine. 

Your logic is that the North was the last kingdom was tried to be conquered, which is false.  But we do know that Theon lived during the Andals great landings and that was far than 1000 years go.

Riverrun is irrelevant here.

Edited by frenin

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Your logic is that the North was the last kingdom was tried to be conquered, which is false.  But we do know that Theon lived during the Andals great landings and that was far than 1000 years go.

Riverrun is irrelevant here.

Since the land for Riverrun was given to House Tully by an Andal, it is most certainly not irrelevant. but nice try. 

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The making of Valyrian Steel must have required human sacrifice.  House Targaryen did not make new Valyrian Steel during their residence at Dragonstone.  They also slowly discontinued the use of slaves during their history on Dragonstone.  The Targaryens were spared from the Doom as Lot's family was spared in Sodom because they are good people.  

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