Rickard's Ambitions: A Survey

[frenin]

24 minutes ago, Big P said:

Aerys has the authority to order those engagements dissolved. 

No, he didn't. No one has such authority.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, James Steller said:

He was already close friends with House Lannister and House Targaryen, so why not expand that influence? The Great Houses would want to foster their kids to houses which share an equal level of power with each other. Otherwise the lesser houses would just want to flatter their wares and tie themselves to them. Look at Brandon Stark in the Rills and Lord Ryswell encouraging a marriage between Barbrey and Brandon. Look at Rickard Karstark trying to make his prepubescent child make an impression on Robb Stark when they go visiting. I can imagine that the Great Houses might not want their kids raised somewhere where their kids will be spoiled rotten. At least, I imagine Steffon could be that kind of guy. 

I think you're making my point for me. Steffon Baratheon could have fostered Robert in King's Landing, he didn't. He might have had him fostered at Casterly Rock, which again he didn't. He went to the Vale instead.

And Hoster Tully betrothed Catelyn to Brandon (and I suspect this might have been his idea) after he refused a marriage proposal from Lord Brax for either her or Lysa. He negotiated a marriage between Lysa and Jaime. He did not enter the rebellion until Jon Arryn accepted to marry Lysa. And later, he tried to negotiate a marriage between Edmure and Arianne. And that's not to mention the marriage he wanted between his brother and Bethany Redwyne. I personally think he was doing this to check Walder Frey and all those marriages he was making for his own children, but no one has accused him of ambition even though all 3 children would have been married off into Great Houses, which would in turn increase his own influence. 

But Rickard Stark was apparently super ambitious and was trying to bring House Targaryen down. 

Anyway . . . 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think that Steffon fostering Robert in the Vale is weirder than Rickard fostering Ned there, tbh. 

I guess that might go down to a personal relationship between Jon and Steffon, perhaps going back the War of the Ninepenny Kings, as well as his and Cassana's intention to separate Robert and Stannis for a while and, perhaps, broaden Robert's horizon or and change his attitudes somewhat by having him live where not everybody was looking at him as their future lord.

But it could also have Robert's own desire to leave the Stormlands and get to know other parts of the Seven Kingdoms. He is the kind of person who could convince his father to let him go to the Vale at the age of, say, 7-8 or so.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen?

No. There's a big step between creating alliances/increasing your influence and overthrowing the king.

It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark.  If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons?  

Are we only supposed to answer this if we think it's true?

You are King Aerys Targaryen.  How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances?

idk... stop pissing them off?

[Willam Stark]

10 hours ago, Big P said:

Aerys has the authority to order those engagements dissolved.  That is the approach he should have taken before executing Rickard and Brandon.  Execute them only if they refuse to obey.

No he didn't, he only has this authority on his own kids. Make alliances with rightfuls lords is not a crime, Aerys can't blame them for that and command them to dissolve their engagements, otherwise it would start a war for nothing. This is just assumptions, he can't rely on that to punish his vassals for a supposed conspiracy and Rickard didn't have any reasons to try overthrowing Aerys back then. It was only after Aerys captured Brandon that he may have wanted to start a rebellion against his king, not before this event.

[Hugorfonics]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen?

No, not personally. As noted, he happily charged into the dragons gullet, which are not the movements of a schemer 

But there was a plot of sorts. Rickard ( allegedly largely influenced by his maester, who, among other things, are supposed to curb Targaryen influence) attempted and shifted the dynamics of the politics and the power vacume of the 7 kingdoms.

The world of Aegon ii and Aegon iii are very different. The absolute monarchy that Targaryen had was then strictly a facade, like Varys' riddle about the 3 men. (Fortunately there was Aegon iv kids to keep Westeros distracted) If the Dance didnt wake up the proud Sunset nobles to this reality then Duskendale surely did. How long can man fear waking the dragon, when there is no dragon to wake?

On 6/3/2020 at 9:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

You are King Aerys Targaryen.  How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances?

Yea, I guess do my best to stop those weddings and turn myself into a dragon as fast as I can.

A tyrant who is unable to force tyranny is a dead man walking. 

I guess I could go the other way, draft a constitution and call for free elections. Good times and free grog

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, Mithras said:

To be clear, no one plotted to overthrow the Targaryens and put Robert or someone else on the Iron Throne before the Rebellion. It was only Rickard Stark's ambitions and it was only about empowering the Starks in the North in dealing with their own troubles in the North.

With this perspective, there are two ways to read the frustration of Lady Dustin about Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions:

So said Odysseus to the Cyclops...

The one part of Lady Dustin's, umm frustrations, that you left out is the role of the Maesters:

Quote

"If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.  They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters.  But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly?  ..

The grey rats read and write out letters, even for such lords as cannot read for themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends?...

Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council.  And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

If we are looking towards a group that would want to overthrow the Targaryens, we may have to look no further than the Citadel.  After all who do you think helped arrange the fostering of Robert and Ned with the Vale?  (If you recall, who tried to later get Stannis to foster his daughter at the Vale?) 

 Who do you think took a hand in arranging the marriage alliances of Brandon, Cat, Lyanna, and Robert?  Who counseled Aerys to open his gates to the Lannisters?

And why would the Citadel take an active interest, in putting Aerys out of power?  

I think the simple answer is that their influence with the Targaryens was waning.  The guild of Alchemists were starting to supplant their influence over the Throne.  And I think the other issue may have been with the Targaryens dream of dragons.  Summerhall may have been a wake up call for the Citadel, if indeed Summerhall dealt with the Targaryens obsession over bringing dragons back into the world.

 

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we are looking towards a group that would want to overthrow the Targaryens, we may have to look no further than the Citadel.  After all who do you think helped arrange the fostering of Robert and Ned with the Vale?  (If you recall, who tried to later get Stannis to foster his daughter at the Vale?) 

Is the Citadel full of seers?? How are they going to know that fostering Robert and Ned together with Jon Arryn would produce the perfect concatenation of events for a succesful rebellion?? How are the maesters going to know that they are going to get along?? Robert and Stannis never got along.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 Who do you think took a hand in arranging the marriage alliances of Brandon, Cat, Lyanna, and Robert?  Who counseled Aerys to open his gates to the Lannisters?

 Lyanna and Robert were betrothed because Robert asked for it via Ned, Barbs thinks that Rickard's maester had a hand in Brandon's bethrothal but the only proof she presents is her bitterness.  And Pycelle led Aerys to his doom because as he says.

 

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"
"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."
"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the simple answer is that their influence with the Targaryens was waning.  The guild of Alchemists were starting to supplant their influence over the Throne.  And I think the other issue may have been with the Targaryens dream of dragons.  Summerhall may have been a wake up call for the Citadel, if indeed Summerhall dealt with the Targaryens obsession over bringing dragons back into the world.

Aerys only started to massively summon the alchemists after Duskendale and during the first decade of his reign... What they had to worry about??

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is the Citadel full of seers?? How are they going to know that fostering Robert and Ned together with Jon Arryn would produce the perfect concatenation of events for a succesful rebellion?? How are the maesters going to know that they are going to get along?? Robert and Stannis never got along.

They don't need to be seers.  They are helping to foster relationships between the Houses.  Have Arryn raise Robert and Ned as brothers, and if successful you have fairly strong ties between three major houses.  You solidify the Houses with marriage alliances, and bring in a fourth House with another marriage alliance.  I think you are being naive if you think the Maesters in each of these Houses did not help influence these decision.

After all, how did Jon end up at the Wall?  

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Lyanna and Robert were betrothed because Robert asked for it via Ned, Barbs thinks that Rickard's maester had a hand in Brandon's bethrothal but the only proof she presents is her bitterness.  And Pycelle led Aerys to his doom because as he says.

Robert may have been smitten, but how do you think it was arranged for Robert to have met and spent time with Lyanna?  It's Lady Barberry's whole point, the Maesters become almost part of the family, the Lords start thinking of them as one of their own.  You can see it with Maester Luwin.  Yet it should not be forgotten that all of the Maesters have another Master, one they all share, the Citadel.  Who needs spymasters when your recruits are all put in the position as lead counselors to all of the Lords of the land.  And they can further communicate with each other, without any of the Lords being the wiser.  

So if you are going to try and foster an alliance, or a rebellion, there is really only one organization that can accomplish it.  There is no Southron alliance, without the Citadel.  

The author is subtly putting this idea out between Barbery's extensive rant about the Maesters to Marwyn's own accusations that the Maesters were responsible for the death of the dragons.  It's not proof that would stand up in a court of law, but it is a way for the author of a series set with first person POV structures to set up a plot point.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

They don't need to be seers.  They are helping to foster relationships between the Houses.  Have Arryn raise Robert and Ned as brothers, and if successful you have fairly strong ties between three major houses. 

But fairly strong ties between three major houses=/rebellion.  Ned also wasn't going to inherit, so the relationship between the three houses would not be as strong, it would be strong since Brandon and Elbert seemed bros, as it was during and after the rebellion, when those three were the heads of their houses.

 

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You solidify the Houses with marriage alliances, and bring in a fourth House with another marriage alliance.

Marriage alliances that weren't their ideas, unless ofc they warged into Robert.

 

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You solidify the Houses with marriage alliances, and bring in a fourth House with another marriage alliance.

Because Ned ordered, do you think that Luwin had a great plan too?? There is a big jump between Jon and Robert and Lyanna.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Robert may have been smitten, but how do you think it was arranged for Robert to have met and spent time with Lyanna? 

Ned. Unless Rickard was illiterate, Ned would be the go between with the three of them. Without any master's help.

 

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's Lady Barberry's whole point, the Maesters become almost part of the family, the Lords start thinking of them as one of their own.

And her point is simply bitterness, she doesn't explain how she came to that conclusion, the maesters being behind most of the decisions, she just refuses to believe other thing.

 

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet it should not be forgotten that all of the Maesters have another Master, one they all share, the Citadel.  Who needs spymasters when your recruits are all put in the position as lead counselors to all of the Lords of the land.  And they can further communicate with each other, without any of the Lords being the wiser.  

It so?? Luwin seemed more close to the Starks than the Citadel, ditto with Cressen, Pycelle was a Lannister man etc.

 

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So if you are going to try and foster an alliance, or a rebellion, there is really only one organization that can accomplish it.  There is no Southron alliance, without the Citadel.  

Not true, all the lords could accomplish it. Unless the lords were illiterate, the maesters aren't much needed for them to came to that conclussion.

 

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The author is subtly putting this idea out between Barbery's extensive rant about the Maesters to Marwyn's own accusations that the Maesters were responsible for the death of the dragons.  It's not proof that would stand up in a court of law, but it is a way for the author of a series set with first person POV structures to set up a plot point.

It seems rants of bitter old people, especially when you consider that Marwyn's main evidence is Aemon who went to the wall on his volution and Marwyn claims foul play.

[Tyrion1991]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:23 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have created a strong bond between the two houses.  That alone will not be enough to threaten Targaryen rule.  However, add the marriage between Brandon and Catelyn and the balance of power changes.  I want to know what you believe. 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen?

It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark.  If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons?  

What if Lyanna Stark ran away of her own choice.  For those who do not like Lyanna: Would you feel better about her if she did this to stop her father's marriage/political ambitions?

You are King Aerys Targaryen.  How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances?

 

 

 

I don’t think George as an author would want to depict House Stark in a negative light. Plotting to seize power, being underhanded and simply wanting power are traits that he assigns to those who oppose the Starks. He depicts this as an inherent good in House Stark. We are told not wanting power is good and House do not desire power.

Anything that looks like it in the story we are provided with excuses and rationalisations which even their enemies dont seriously question. The Lannister’s don’t actually question the legitimacy or motives of Rob Starks rebellion.

With that agenda in mind it becomes impossible. These were simply innocent acts that a paranoid and weak Targaryen thought were schemes. He made an enemy of the North and fell as a result.

Well you’re striking at the issue with Targaryen insanity. It’s an absurdity. No normal person would behave or act as they do with the information available. So why should I take any moral lessons from that or sympathise with their position? If you had an absolute monarch who wasn’t an inbred moron the system would work. This is why readers love Robert Baratheon. It gets in the way of any serious debate about these factions.

[Damsel in Distress]

The monarch has the right to say who gets to marry who.  There is a precedent for it in Westeros history.

Page 49, The World of Ice and Fire

Quote

The queen (Rhaenys) also did much to bring the realm together through the marriages she arranged between far-flung houses.

King Aerys had the right to arrange as well as dissolve marriages.  Rickard, Hoster, Robert, and Jon are required to obey if Aerys had commanded them to stop those marriage plans for their children and wards.

[Adam Yozza]

9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The monarch has the right to say who gets to marry who.  There is a precedent for it in Westeros history.

Page 49, The World of Ice and Fire

King Aerys had the right to arrange as well as dissolve marriages.  Rickard, Hoster, Robert, and Jon are required to obey if Aerys had commanded them to stop those marriage plans for their children and wards.

Nope. Alysanne arranged the marriages but it was still down to the Lords themselves to consent. And helping to arrange beneficial marriages between houses that normally wouldn't interact is a lot different than breaking someone else's betrothals/marriages. Thats not something the King has the right to do and to do it anyway would lead straight back down the path to rebellion because the Lords would feel imposed on. And this time, there's every chance the Valemen, Riverlords and Stormlords who sided with Aerys in canon (not to mention the Reach, who love their influential marriages) would side differently in this hypothetical because their freedoms are being enroached on as much as the STAB alliances' are.

[M.Alhazred]

Aerys was out of his mind wouldn't matter what advice anyone would have given him the result would still be the same. Rickard Stark didn't seem to have any intentions to set up an opposing faction. 

[divica]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:23 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have created a strong bond between the two houses.  That alone will not be enough to threaten Targaryen rule.  However, add the marriage between Brandon and Catelyn and the balance of power changes.  I want to know what you believe. 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen?

It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark.  If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons?  

What if Lyanna Stark ran away of her own choice.  For those who do not like Lyanna: Would you feel better about her if she did this to stop her father's marriage/political ambitions?

You are King Aerys Targaryen.  How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances?

 

 

Whatever happened I think rhaegar had to stop the marriage between lyanna and robbert at all costs.

If the marriage happened we would have 4 great houses with strong links between them. No responsable monarch could ever accept that. It is just too dangerous. So I am perfectly fine with rhaegar kidnaping lyanna as a desperate action and as they spend time together they fall in love.

It would help to explain the absense of letters from rhaegar explaining the whole situation. He kidnaped lyanna to avoid an aliance against his familly but he couldn t bring lyanna to KL because aerys would kill her and that would start the war he wanted to avoid. So he needed to hid her while he dealed with the ramifications of his action and sought a peacefull resolution but ended up falling in love with her. He was also fucked by brandon that decided to commit suicide by stupidity...

I had a topic about this, but the real proof that something weird is really going on behind the scenes is how aerys dealt with the starks and his orders to jon arryn. Unless we assume he is insane (behaves without logic) then the starks must have been planning something. And if we assume he tortured brandon's friends and the squire that survived talked about some stark plot then his actions actually make sense.

 

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, divica said:

If the marriage happened we would have 4 great houses with strong links between them. No responsable monarch could ever accept that. It is just too dangerous. So I am perfectly fine with rhaegar kidnaping lyanna as a desperate action and as they spend time together they fall in love.

A responsible action by a responsible monarch that at all would start a war.

 

 

[867-5309]

1 hour ago, divica said:

And if we assume he tortured brandon's friends and the squire that survived talked about some stark plot then his actions actually make sense.

Brandon was tortured.  Aerys might not think of doing that but his advisers would have.  Brandon talked.  There was no reason to send for Robert and Ned if their families had not engaged in conspiracy.  Brandon's squire was spared.  So we know the executions were not done indiscriminately. 

[divica]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

A responsible action by a responsible monarch that at all would start a war.

 

 

It went really wrong. But something had to be done to break that marriage. 

[Mithras]

On 6/5/2020 at 7:07 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So said Odysseus to the Cyclops...

The one part of Lady Dustin's, umm frustrations, that you left out is the role of the Maesters:

If we are looking towards a group that would want to overthrow the Targaryens, we may have to look no further than the Citadel.  After all who do you think helped arrange the fostering of Robert and Ned with the Vale?  (If you recall, who tried to later get Stannis to foster his daughter at the Vale?) 

 Who do you think took a hand in arranging the marriage alliances of Brandon, Cat, Lyanna, and Robert?  Who counseled Aerys to open his gates to the Lannisters?

And why would the Citadel take an active interest, in putting Aerys out of power?  

I think the simple answer is that their influence with the Targaryens was waning.  The guild of Alchemists were starting to supplant their influence over the Throne.  And I think the other issue may have been with the Targaryens dream of dragons.  Summerhall may have been a wake up call for the Citadel, if indeed Summerhall dealt with the Targaryens obsession over bringing dragons back into the world.

What is the Maester conspiracy? The maesters manipulated the Great Lords into marriages or the Great Lords were aware of and complicit in the plans of the maesters? The first option (Great Lords not being aware of being pawns in the maester conspiracy about overthrowing the Targaryens) deprives them of intelligence and agency. The second option is the classic Southron Ambitions theory, which is a Grand Conspiracy Theory that is impossible to implement without leaks and also absolves Aerys and villifies the victims.

The nobility is "programmed" to think about marriages because that is their nature. That is a huge part of politics in this world. Therefore, fooling the nobles in perhaps the only matter they care about does not seem like a good idea. The nobles should not be such incompetent fools, if we are talking about realistic characters. Instead, they should be able to have their own opinions and plans about marital politics, which have many examples in the text (down to Sansa's musings about a possible Mya Stone - Lothor Brune match).

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Brandon was tortured.  Aerys might not think of doing that but his advisers would have.  Brandon talked.  There was no reason to send for Robert and Ned if their families had not engaged in conspiracy.  Brandon's squire was spared.  So we know the executions were not done indiscriminately. 

And yet when the King called Rickard walked right into King's Landing alone. Thats not the actions of a man who's been plotting a rebellion. Thats the actions of a man with nothing to hide. And torture is a questionable method of information gathering, as F&B's secret siege shows. So even if Brandon did confess to something (I doubt it) the validity of that information is questionable.