Lord Varys Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 There is no internal evidence anywhere for the idea that Rickard Stark wanted an 'independent North', just as there is no evidence that anyone else wanted to go back to the silly Seven Kingdoms of old. If that were the case the Seven Kingdoms would have never accepted nor crowned Robert the Moron, nor would he have been able to keep them together. Nobody would have put him on the throne, especially not the other rebel leaders. Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully would have made themselves kings, not Robert Baratheon - or rather: they would have said Robert could be the new Storm King but not a king they were beholden to. Robb Stark's coronation was a spur of the moment nonsense, an idea that got popular because any other option had been dismissed and the lords in question had grown tired and wanted a solution. And it gained steam because Westeros isn't overall happy with the idea that their own peers rule over them rather than the semi-divine Targaryens. The authority of the Iron Throne already declined with Robert's rule, but a cruel boy king whose court is dominated by the ambitious and arrogant Lannisters - who have no right whatsoever to rule over their peers whereas the Baratheons are at least of Targaryen descent - is too much for them. Especially since that boy king and his Lannister allies murdered Eddard Stark and invaded the Riverlands. What we do have is the possibility that Rickard Stark's ambitions in the marriage department and the general advancement department caused him to be seen as a man receptive to Rhaegar's alleged plots against his father and eventually, thanks to the Lyanna incident at Harrenhal, as a man who was actively in cahoots with Rhaegar against his father. But there is no evidence at all that Rickard had any treacherous intentions when he struck his marriage alliances (especially not the one with Robert which seems to go back to Robert's own initiative, not Rickard's); instead, it is indicated that Lord Rickard's betrothals - made for different reasons - eventually worked out fine for the rebels when Robert's Rebellion started. Although seriously it was more the fact that Ned and Robert were friends and Jon Arryn saw them as his own children, that made the real difference there. The only guy who joined the rebels because of a marriage alliance was Hoster Tully - and he insisted on one completely new marriage alliance to do that. But, sure, the Cat-Brandon betrothal was what got Ned's foot into the doors of Riverrun, so to speak. Although the crucial thing there was that Ned was neither betrothed nor married himself at that point. If he had refused/not been able to marry Catelyn - and Jon had refused to marry slutty Lysa - then Riverrun wouldn't have stood with the rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 I don’t necessarily believe in the Southron Ambitions plot, but I believe that the matches Rickard made for his children weren’t the best matches and were done rather carelessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 21 hours ago, SFDanny said: Down to the attempt to poison the Red Woman. I, for one, would love to know more about any connections or communications between Cressen, Walys, Kim, and the other unnamed maesters of the Great Houses during this time. Assuming that the Archmaester father of Walys was Walgrave, Walgrave seemed to have some relationship with Cressen, enough of one to repeatedly mistake Pate for Cressen: Quote Archmaester Walgrave had no trouble telling one raven from another, but he was not so good with people. Some days he seemed to think Pate was someone named Cressen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: Assuming that the Archmaester father of Walys was Walgrave, Walgrave seemed to have some relationship with Cressen, enough of one to repeatedly mistake Pate for Cressen: That implies either that Walgrave thought of Cressen as his servant back in the day - since he confused his new servant, Pate, with him - or that Cressen and Walgrave were friends as novices and acolytes, something that could but doesn't have to have extended into the days of their older years. Senile people always remember stuff from their childhood and youth they didn't think about in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Assuming that the Archmaester father of Walys was Walgrave, Walgrave seemed to have some relationship with Cressen, enough of one to repeatedly mistake Pate for Cressen: Excellent example of a clue that demands even more information. Martin seems to be laying out, first with Marwyn's warning of the maester's conspiracy, and next with remarks about Maester Walys by Lady Dustin how the anti-Targaryen maesters are hip deep in the formation of Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions" plans. It is a important part of showing the reader the anti-Targaryen nature of the alliances Lord Stark and his allies are building. As I said earlier, the reader should look at the ACoK prologue with new eyes after reading Marwyn's warning to Sam. It is classic Martin. He starts us with sympathetic POV in which a character who truly loves Stannis and Shireen and which shows he thinks of the danger Melisandre, as a wielder of magic and teller of prophecy, that ends with him sacrificing his own life to protect his loved ones from her evil ways. When we read Marwyn's warning to Sam about how some maesters would poison him for even talking about such subjects, it should tell readers that there is a different side to Maester Cressen and his beliefs that we should consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I wonder how Vaegon got to be Archmaester... Cressen doesn't really like Meli not because she is magical but because she is a clear danger for Cressen's "sons". Cressen himself, albeit reluctantly, acknowledges that something beyond the wisdom of the Citadel is going on. And well, Marwyn's story would be far more credible if his only evidence (Aemon) wasn't outright false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, frenin said: I wonder how Vaegon got to be Archmaester... Cressen doesn't really like Meli not because she is magical but because she is a clear danger for Cressen's "sons". Cressen himself, albeit reluctantly, acknowledges that something beyond the wisdom of the Citadel is going on. And well, Marwyn's story would be far more credible if his only evidence (Aemon) wasn't outright false. Whether Marwyn's story is credible or not, I have a feeling its more there as a reason to get him out of Oldtown before Euron's attack. If that is the case, then it may be that most of the other senior Maester's are not long for the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 On 6/12/2020 at 4:28 PM, SFDanny said: I hope that isn't aimed at me? If so you haven't understood anything I've written. While Aerys was every bit the supremacist you allude to, it does not mean the High Lords of the realm haven't given him their oaths of fealty. Nor that the record of some of them isn't any better than the Mad King. Recognition of different perspectives is the basic necessity of understanding this story. By which I mean, in this case, if one cannot see Aerys's perspective or Rhaegar's perspective then one is hopelessly turned Martin into a root for the Starks narrative. Not a problem to love some characters more than others, but understanding all of them is what Martin wants us, the readers, to do. Hell, if I had a political choice of who I had to choose that most closely represents my own, I'd only read the Wildlings chapters. Curse the bloody "kneelers!" That's not what this story is about. Step back and read the story from the view of characters one doesn't always like, and I think we get a better view of the world Martin has created. A certain portion of Dany fans go so far as to justify Aerys in their defense of Dany. I've seen too much of that BS. My reaction was aimed at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 On 6/8/2020 at 3:07 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said: Sure, give Rickard a chance to obey. Burn Winterfell with Wildfire if he refuses. We, of course, do not know if that was not tried and Rickard disobeyed. He deserved an execution if he was commanded to change his plans and he refused. Right. Test his and Robert's loyalty. But do not be hasty. Call them to the capital for a negotiation. Make it a royal summons. Which they cannot refuse. Set up a deadly ambush somewhere on the Kingsroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 This is one the best takes on the whole Southron Ambitions which includes Rickard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: This is one the best takes on the whole Southron Ambitions which includes Rickard. That is not a theory. That is the unfinished outline of a series about Robert's Rebellion, which should take at least several volumes to tell properly. That thing cannot fit in the last two books of the main series, whose subject is not Robert's Rebellion. Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark. If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons? He was a pedo creeping on young girls. On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: What if Lyanna Stark ran away of her own choice. For those who do not like Lyanna: Would you feel better about her if she did this to stop her father's marriage/political ambitions? No, I think she was taken advantage of and didn't quite know how serious the situation was. On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: You are King Aerys Targaryen. How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances? I guess I'd get high sniffing some wildfire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said: The marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have created a strong bond between the two houses. That alone will not be enough to threaten Targaryen rule. However, add the marriage between Brandon and Catelyn and the balance of power changes. I want to know what you believe. Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen? It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark. If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons? What if Lyanna Stark ran away of her own choice. For those who do not like Lyanna: Would you feel better about her if she did this to stop her father's marriage/political ambitions? You are King Aerys Targaryen. How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances? The unusual tact of marrying the Stark heir to a Southron girl was supposedly put into Rickard's head by the Maesters. So while it doesn't seem likely that Rickard was plotting against the throne, the Maesters certainly were. Not that this marriage would itself be a threat to the Targaryens, but it was absolutely a move in the long-standing mythic feud between the Citadel/Hightower faction and the Children of the Forest and their puppets (which includes the Targaryens, but more relevant to this plot, the Starks). By mingling the line of House Stark with Whent blood (and thus, likely the blood of House Hoare), it's likely they sought to cut off House Stark from being manipulated by the Children due to the Hoare mental resistance. This is why, of all the Maesters, the Stark children got one of the few with a Valyrian Steel link, there to supervise this project and intervene if necessary. It's also not a coincidence that it just so happened that the drugs he gave Bran had anti-psychic properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big P Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 On 6/5/2020 at 4:22 AM, Willam Stark said: No he didn't, he only has this authority on his own kids. Make alliances with rightfuls lords is not a crime, Aerys can't blame them for that and command them to dissolve their engagements, otherwise it would start a war for nothing. This is just assumptions, he can't rely on that to punish his vassals for a supposed conspiracy and Rickard didn't have any reasons to try overthrowing Aerys back then. It was only after Aerys captured Brandon that he may have wanted to start a rebellion against his king, not before this event. The king has the authority to decide who his subjects marry. On 6/6/2020 at 11:10 AM, Damsel in Distress said: The monarch has the right to say who gets to marry who. There is a precedent for it in Westeros history. Page 49, The World of Ice and Fire King Aerys had the right to arrange as well as dissolve marriages. Rickard, Hoster, Robert, and Jon are required to obey if Aerys had commanded them to stop those marriage plans for their children and wards. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, Big P said: The king has the authority to decide who his subjects marry. Please, back up your claim w/ some (any!) textual support. And no, wishful thinking doesn’t count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 On 6/20/2020 at 8:55 PM, Big P said: The king has the authority to decide who his subjects marry. Sadly he doesn't, your personal opinion won't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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