Rickard's Ambitions: A Survey

[Adam Yozza]

8 hours ago, divica said:

I had a topic about this, but the real proof that something weird is really going on behind the scenes is how aerys dealt with the starks and his orders to jon arryn. Unless we assume he is insane (behaves without logic) then the starks must have been planning something. And if we assume he tortured brandon's friends and the squire that survived talked about some stark plot then his actions actually make sense.

 

What? Of course Aerys is insane. He has an extremely competent Hand and instead of ensuring his loyalty he insults and slights and mocks him at every opportunity. He allows Tywin into the city despite having been consistently paranoid about him and then sends Jaime to kill his father and somehow expected a different result than what happened. There is more than enough evidence to show that at this point, Aerys was behaving without any sort of logic.

And as had been pointed out before, if there was any sort of Stark plot, Ned knew nothing of it because we are in his head for the whole first book and it doesn't come up once, despite how many times he thinks of the rebellion and its cause. So even if executing Brandon and Rickard and Brandon's pals and their fathers was somehow just, Ned was completely innocent and thus Aerys had no valid cause to demand Ned's death.

And if some sort of Stark-Arryn-Baratheon plot was uncovered, then why didn't Aerys announce it to the world. He would have sent letters all over the realm revealing this info and denouncing the Stark's. Hell, he should have done this anyway, if only to (falsely) justify his actions. But he didn't. Otherwise one of the Stark's enemies in the main series would have mentioned it. Cersei especially would probably use it against Ned in AGOT or think on it during Feast/Dance. And Jaime was there at court when this all went down and doesn't ever mention or think about a Stark plot.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, divica said:

I had a topic about this, but the real proof that something weird is really going on behind the scenes is how aerys dealt with the starks and his orders to jon arryn. Unless we assume he is insane (behaves without logic) then the starks must have been planning something. And if we assume he tortured brandon's friends and the squire that survived talked about some stark plot then his actions actually make sense.

What @Adam Yozza said. But also, we don’t have to make any assumptions about Aerys II Targaryen, aka “The Mad King”, being insane. We are explicitly told as much over and over and over again, from several PoVs.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, divica said:

I had a topic about this, but the real proof that something weird is really going on behind the scenes is how aerys dealt with the starks and his orders to jon arryn. Unless we assume he is insane (behaves without logic) then the starks must have been planning something. And if we assume he tortured brandon's friends and the squire that survived talked about some stark plot then his actions actually make sense.

Aerys was insane. That is a fact and no amount of "unless we assume he is insane" is going to change that. It is explicit in the text that Aerys was several marbles short. 

In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. (The Queensguard, ADwD 55)

That said, I think we can make a case for the small council taking advantage of Aerys's madness and paranoia when the time came to dealing with the Starks and Brandon's companions to get rid of a perceived threat to them and their position in court. 

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, his lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell, unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. (The World Book)

Symond Staunton was the master of laws under Aerys. And between that and Gerold Hightower telling Jaime and he swore to guard the king, not judge him, I think that the small council enabled Aerys's worst impulses when it came to this. If Symond Staunton and the others really believed that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in exchange for Winterfell's allegiance, then removing Rickard Stark might cut Rhaegar at the knees.

Let's break this so-called alliance further by having Jon Arryn kill his wards. Once that's done, the connection between Arryn/Baratheon is severed and the connection between Arryn/Stark is severed along with the Stark/Tully connection.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, divica said:

It went really wrong. But something had to be done to break that marriage. 

Maybe... Don't break the marriage and start creating their own webs of alliances. They were the guys in power, they could do that. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Aerys was insane. That is a fact and no amount of "unless we assume he is insane" is going to change that.

I wouldnt call it a fact. Facts are hard to come by in asoiaf

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 It is explicit in the text that Aerys was several marbles short. 

In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. (The Queensguard, ADwD 55)

So, like the unkiss, I dont consider the commander of the Queensguard to be a reliable source. Largely because hes an old man whos battled concussions and other traumatic head injuries in his 50+ year line of work.  But also

 

.

"No," he said aloud. "Daenerys is not dead. She was riding that dragon. I saw it with mine own two eyes." He had said the same a hundred times before … but every day that passed made it harder to believe. Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning … and if I did not see her fall, hundreds swear they did.

.

we see Selmy rejecting the truth in real time. Compounded with the inaccuracies in his Whitebook entry and his whole Dany didnt laugh at Quentyn act, we can assume Selmys memory is not to be trusted.

I do think Aerys was a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket, just not the level hes perceived as, and I agree advisors and yes men can always be dangerous too.

Its just weird that Jaime, im pretty sure, never calls him mad. Like, he justifies his murder every day, he obviously hated him. He does compare Cersei to Aerys though, and while Cersei may be one excedrin tablet short of a medicine cabinet, I don't think shes actually insane. At least comparable to other kings, notably Euron Joff and Viserys

[frenin]

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, like the unkiss, I dont consider the commander of the Queensguard to be a reliable source. Largely because hes an old man whos battled concussions and other traumatic head injuries in his 50+ year line of work.  But also

 

Aerys's actions marked Barristan and it's not like he omited an event, but that Aerys went downhill for more than a decade, you can't forget a decade of your life, a decade of your life is not the same as not remembering what we had for breakfast a a month ago. Especially if said decade left psychological scars in you, nope no way. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Aerys's actions marked Barristan and it's not like he omited an event, but that Aerys went downhill for more than a decade, you can't forget a decade of your life, a decade of your life is not the same as not remembering what we had for breakfast a a month ago. Especially if said decade left psychological scars in you, nope no way. 

 

Exactly. And we have more on Aerys from other characters as well. The idea that maybe Aerys wasn’t insane is, quite frankly, preposterous.

[Hugorfonics]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Aerys's actions marked Barristan and it's not like he omited an event, but that Aerys went downhill for more than a decade, you can't forget a decade of your life, a decade of your life is not the same as not remembering what we had for breakfast a a month ago. Especially if said decade left psychological scars in you, nope no way. 

What psychological scars?

.

Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that.

.

Nothing may excuse that. But rationalizing it with Roberts propaganda is a better way to live with Jaime and them.

[frenin]

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What psychological scars?

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.
But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

Those psychological scars.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nothing may excuse that. But rationalizing it with Roberts propaganda is a better way to live with Jaime and them.

Wow, so the man invented new memories of that decade to paint Aerys in a bad light?? Wow, that's some level of denial.

 

[divica]

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

And yet when the King called Rickard walked right into King's Landing alone. Thats not the actions of a man who's been plotting a rebellion. Thats the actions of a man with nothing to hide. And torture is a questionable method of information gathering, as F&B's secret siege shows. So even if Brandon did confess to something (I doubt it) the validity of that information is questionable.

He didn t go alone. 

Then if someone confessed something it should be the spared squire.

Rickard needed to go to KL as fast as possible in order to save his son and get there before any of Brandon's friends talked. Rickard behaved like a desperate man, not an innocent one... 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nothing may excuse that. But rationalizing it with Roberts propaganda is a better way to live with Jaime and them.

Robert propaganda. You're the one trying to rationalize what we've been told about Aerys from practically every character. Barristan doesn't approach Dany because he wants to make sure she doesn't have the taint. He says Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was. 

Robert did not need any type of propaganda against Aerys. Aerys did a very good job dragging his own name through the mud. The only piece of propaganda Robert may have tried to push, as far as I can tell, was the abduction and rape of Lyanna by Rhaegar.

[Lollygag]

Aerys is mentioned as Mad all over the place and I can't think of one single person in-world who disputes this with any credibility. It's treated as common knowledge entirely throughout the main story and TWOIAF like 2+2=4. I'm not gonna quote this myself because there's way too much.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=aerys+mad&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=aerys+mad&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=affc

Ok, I'll quote one thing. These are Jaime's thoughts, not his words to anyone.

AFFC Jaime II

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

By the end the Mad King had become so fearful that he would allow no blade in his presence, save for the swords his Kingsguard wore. His beard was matted and unwashed, his hair a silver-gold tangle that reached his waist, his fingernails cracked yellow claws nine inches long. Yet still the blades tormented him, the ones he could never escape, the blades of the Iron Throne. His arms and legs were always covered with scabs and half-healed cuts.

Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister's smile. Let him be the king of ashes. "Your Grace," he said, "might we have a private word?"

[divica]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

What @Adam Yozza said. But also, we don’t have to make any assumptions about Aerys II Targaryen, aka “The Mad King”, being insane. We are explicitly told as much over and over and over again, from several PoVs.

He had mental problems, no doubt. But his behaviour previous to the rebelion is batshit crazy.

Why did he kill rickard? Why spare the squire? Why order jon arryn to kill ned and robert? What have these 2 people done to deserve death?

On the other hand his behaviour during the rebelion is much more sane. Evil, but there is some logic behind his actions. You can t justify any of the actions I said previously.

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

What? Of course Aerys is insane. He has an extremely competent Hand and instead of ensuring his loyalty he insults and slights and mocks him at every opportunity. He allows Tywin into the city despite having been consistently paranoid about him and then sends Jaime to kill his father and somehow expected a different result than what happened. There is more than enough evidence to show that at this point, Aerys was behaving without any sort of logic.

Not true. Despite their conflicts tywin suported aerys his whole life. Why not believe one of his oldest friends was there to help him in his time of need? Why would he think a kingsguard would betray him when as far as we know the KG have always been loyal? You might not like it but there is logic behind these actions...

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

And as had been pointed out before, if there was any sort of Stark plot, Ned knew nothing of it because we are in his head for the whole first book and it doesn't come up once, despite how many times he thinks of the rebellion and its cause. So even if executing Brandon and Rickard and Brandon's pals and their fathers was somehow just, Ned was completely innocent and thus Aerys had no valid cause to demand Ned's death.

Here I agree. But whatever story we choose to believe ned was a pawn. He was basically used by other people without knowing what was really going on. We just have to see how he was the link between lyanna and robert...

And aerys calling for robert and ned's heads shows that something must have been going on. Why would he want these 2 dead and not stannis, renly and benjen? What criteria is behind this decision? 

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

And if some sort of Stark-Arryn-Baratheon plot was uncovered, then why didn't Aerys announce it to the world. He would have sent letters all over the realm revealing this info and denouncing the Stark's. Hell, he should have done this anyway, if only to (falsely) justify his actions. But he didn't. Otherwise one of the Stark's enemies in the main series would have mentioned it. Cersei especially would probably use it against Ned in AGOT or think on it during Feast/Dance. And Jaime was there at court when this all went down and doesn't ever mention or think about a Stark plot.

There are several ways to justify him keeping it secret. First and foremost that he can t anounce than 4 kingdoms are preparing rebelion! What would he do if the remaining kingdoms that dont  like him joined them? 

If he uncovered a rebelion then him killing rickard and brandon, testing jon arryn's loyalty by ordering him to kill ned and robert after telling him about their rebelion and calling for rhaegar (previous to this they were at odds but now are making peace) actually makes sense. He would solve all his problems! Even if jon arryn betrayed him he was ready to kill robert. He was just unlucky in the battle of the bells.

In regards to other characters not knowing about it we can also justify it. Jaime was just a new recruit of the KG and anyone that wasn t in KL would never have heard about it because only aerys smallcouncil would know about this and the people in power would do whatever was necessary to keep this information a secret. 

But if there really was reason to believe there was a conspiracy I think griff's pov will tell us about it. Don t worry =)

18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Robert propaganda. You're the one trying to rationalize what we've been told about Aerys from practically every character. Barristan doesn't approach Dany because he wants to make sure she doesn't have the taint. He says Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was. 

Robert did not need any type of propaganda against Aerys. Aerys did a very good job dragging his own name through the mud. The only piece of propaganda Robert may have tried to push, as far as I can tell, was the abduction and rape of Lyanna by Rhaegar.

People thinking aerys had mental problems actually helped robert to sell whatever he wanted to sell about aerys. The problem here is that aerys behaved more insane that we have seen before.

He had motives to kill brandon, but he called ricarkd and other importante nobles from the north just to kill them! He was one of the most importante nobles at the time. Aerys had never killed his high lords without some reason… Then he calls for ned and robert's heads why? What have they done? Why leave benjen, stannis and renly alone? why spare the squire? why did rhaegar run away with lyanna?

We have so many hints that something was going on behind the scenes besides aerys madness...

[frenin]

23 minutes ago, divica said:

He had mental problems, no doubt. But his behaviour previous to the rebelion is batshit crazy.

Why did he kill rickard? Why spare the squire? Why order jon arryn to kill ned and robert? What have these 2 people done to deserve death?

On the other hand his behaviour during the rebelion is much more sane. Evil, but there is some logic behind his actions. You can t justify any of the actions I said previously.

There is nothing sane about his actions during that time.

 

 

24 minutes ago, divica said:

Not true. Despite their conflicts tywin suported aerys his whole life. Why not believe one of his oldest friends was there to help him in his time of need? Why would he think a kingsguard would betray him when as far as we know the KG have always been loyal? You might not like it but there is logic behind these actions...

Well.. Because he didn't. There are no logic behind his actions.

 

 

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed.

 

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.”

 

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin’s daughter.

 

The gods had other notions, however. Steffon Baratheon’s mission ended in failure, and on his return from Volantis, his ship foundered and sank in Shipbreaker Bay, within sight of Storm’s End. Lord Steffon and his wife were both drowned as their two elder sons watched from the castle walls. When word of their deaths reached King’s Landing, King Aerys flew into a rage and told Grand Maester Pycelle that Tywin Lannister had somehow divined his royal intentions and arranged for Lord Baratheon’s murder. “If I dismiss him as Hand, he will kill me, too,” the king told the grand maester.

 

Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious: suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete … and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves, the most notable of whom was his former Hand, Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock.

 

Scarce had the thing been done, however, than King Aerys II began to nurse grave doubts about his new protector. The king had seized upon the notion of bringing Ser Jaime into his Kingsguard as a way of humbling his old friend, Grand Maester Pycelle tells us. Only now, belatedly, did His Grace come to the realization that he would henceforth have Lord Tywin’s son beside him day and night … with a sword at his side. The thought frightened him so badly that he could hardly eat at that night’s feast, Pycelle avows.

 

Aerys didn't trust Jaime and he certainly did not trust Tywin.

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, divica said:

Here I agree. But whatever story we choose to believe ned was a pawn. He was basically used by other people without knowing what was really going on. We just have to see how he was the link between lyanna and robert...

He was never used by other people, he is the link between Lyanna and Robert because he is delighted with the idea of his best bro together with his sister.

 

 

44 minutes ago, divica said:

And aerys calling for robert and ned's heads shows that something must have been going on. Why would he want these 2 dead and not stannis, renly and benjen? What criteria is behind this decision? 

Ned and Robert could be killed, they were now the respectives heads of their great houses and they were both far from their power base and under Jon Arryn's mercy. He was never going to get the heads of the latter three, he might get the heads of Ned and Robert.

 

46 minutes ago, divica said:

There are several ways to justify him keeping it secret. First and foremost that he can t anounce than 4 kingdoms are preparing rebelion! What would he do if the remaining kingdoms that dont  like him joined them? 

After the rebellion had already started?? 

 

48 minutes ago, divica said:

If he uncovered a rebelion then him killing rickard and brandon, testing jon arryn's loyalty by ordering him to kill ned and robert after telling him about their rebelion and calling for rhaegar (previous to this they were at odds but now are making peace) actually makes sense. He would solve all his problems! Even if jon arryn betrayed him he was ready to kill robert. He was just unlucky in the battle of the bells.

No one wants to support traitors, you only need to read about the middle ages, treason usually end the support of the nobility, Aerys not telling everyone that Robert and co were previous traitors doesn't make sense.

 

51 minutes ago, divica said:

In regards to other characters not knowing about it we can also justify it. Jaime was just a new recruit of the KG and anyone that wasn t in KL would never have heard about it because only aerys smallcouncil would know about this and the people in power would do whatever was necessary to keep this information a secret. 

Jaime was there when things happened, there is no reason for him not to know about it, or Barristan, instead Hightower tries to convince Jaime that murdering his king is not good even if he is batshit crazy.

 

 

52 minutes ago, divica said:

But if there really was reason to believe there was a conspiracy I think griff's pov will tell us about it. Don t worry =)

"There is wisdom in that," Griff admitted. It might have been different if Blackheart still commanded, but Myles Toyne was four years dead, and Homeless Harry Strickland was a different sort of man. He would not say that to the boy, however. That dwarf had already planted enough doubts in his young head. "Not every man is what he seems, and a prince especially has good cause to be wary … but go too far down that road, and the mistrust can poison you, make you sour and fearful." King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough. "You would do best to walk a middle course. Let men earn your trust with leal service … but when they do, be generous and openhearted."

 

[Adam Yozza]

6 hours ago, divica said:

He didn t go alone. 

Then if someone confessed something it should be the spared squire.

Rickard needed to go to KL as fast as possible in order to save his son and get there before any of Brandon's friends talked. Rickard behaved like a desperate man, not an innocent one... 

Yes he did. Oh he might have had a few guards with him and I guess he might have joined up with the other father's prior to entering King's Landing. But if your son and heir has just been imprisoned by the King you are attempting to overthrow, you don't just walk into your enemies homebase. You go in force. If Rickard was plotting to overthrow the Targ's he'd have raised his banners right then and there, just like Robb did. The fact that he didn't not only shows his innocence of any plotting but also that he's more naive than Robb.

If Brandon or one of his friends talked, Rickard could just deny it as Aerys lying. Its not like there's not precedent for that (Thaddeus Rowan during the Secret Siege). If they win, then history is theirs to write anyway. But no one who was actually guilty would have thought they'd be walking out of KL alive.

5 hours ago, divica said:

He had mental problems, no doubt. But his behaviour previous to the rebelion is batshit crazy.

Why did he kill rickard? Why spare the squire? Why order jon arryn to kill ned and robert? What have these 2 people done to deserve death?

On the other hand his behaviour during the rebelion is much more sane. Evil, but there is some logic behind his actions. You can t justify any of the actions I said previously.

Not true. Despite their conflicts tywin suported aerys his whole life. Why not believe one of his oldest friends was there to help him in his time of need? Why would he think a kingsguard would betray him when as far as we know the KG have always been loyal? You might not like it but there is logic behind these actions...

Here I agree. But whatever story we choose to believe ned was a pawn. He was basically used by other people without knowing what was really going on. We just have to see how he was the link between lyanna and robert...

And aerys calling for robert and ned's heads shows that something must have been going on. Why would he want these 2 dead and not stannis, renly and benjen? What criteria is behind this decision? 

There are several ways to justify him keeping it secret. First and foremost that he can t anounce than 4 kingdoms are preparing rebelion! What would he do if the remaining kingdoms that dont  like him joined them? 

If he uncovered a rebelion then him killing rickard and brandon, testing jon arryn's loyalty by ordering him to kill ned and robert after telling him about their rebelion and calling for rhaegar (previous to this they were at odds but now are making peace) actually makes sense. He would solve all his problems! Even if jon arryn betrayed him he was ready to kill robert. He was just unlucky in the battle of the bells.

In regards to other characters not knowing about it we can also justify it. Jaime was just a new recruit of the KG and anyone that wasn t in KL would never have heard about it because only aerys smallcouncil would know about this and the people in power would do whatever was necessary to keep this information a secret. 

But if there really was reason to believe there was a conspiracy I think griff's pov will tell us about it. Don t worry =)

People thinking aerys had mental problems actually helped robert to sell whatever he wanted to sell about aerys. The problem here is that aerys behaved more insane that we have seen before.

He had motives to kill brandon, but he called ricarkd and other importante nobles from the north just to kill them! He was one of the most importante nobles at the time. Aerys had never killed his high lords without some reason… Then he calls for ned and robert's heads why? What have they done? Why leave benjen, stannis and renly alone? why spare the squire? why did rhaegar run away with lyanna?

We have so many hints that something was going on behind the scenes besides aerys madness...

Well @frenin did a good job with this one anyway. I won't bother with the quotes here because he put them in above. I'm just doubling down on these points.

We get multiple POV characters confirming (in the privacy of their own mind) that Aerys was nuts, with their own eye-witness accounts. Added to the World Book and second-hand information we get from other characters who were not present, you'd be as well arguing that the sky is actually a shade of purple.

Furthermore, there are quite a few instances of Aerys blamed and being suspicious of Tywin. He suspected him of trying to kill him at Duskendale (probably rightly), of Steffon Baratheon's death (probably wrongly), for not attending Whent's tourney (he suspected both those who attended and those who didn't, so what does that say about his logic?), he kept Jaime close out of fear for Tywin (told by both Rhaegar and Jaime, the formed or whom also says that Aerys perceived Tywin to be a much bigger threat to him than Robert) and supposedly had what seems to be a panic attack at the thought of a Lannister being near him with a sword. All of that...and then he suddenly u-turns and lets Tywin into the city. After all his suspicions he thought Tywin would join the losing side? That's not logical in the slightest. A rational person would have the literal inverse thought process.

And its not like he had any particular reason to have faith in the KG oaths. In the Dance the KG was split between the two factions, in his own KG Whent and Dayne (and Hightower, apparently) had abandoned him for his son, Aenys' KG betrayed the rightful heir to support Maegor and a good portion of them later abandoned him when the tide turned to young Jahaerys. Mervyn Flowers acted in direct contrast to the wishes and well-being of Aegon III during his regency. Lucamore Strong famously broke his vows. So why would he expect Jaime to actually follow through on an order to murder his father when he already distrusted Jaime?

There's no reason not to tell the world about the plot, especially not after Jon Arryn raised his banners. Doing so turns the STAB alliance from the aggrieved party fighting to overthrow a mad evil tyrant to devious plotters trying to usurp the rightful dynasty. That sort of stuff has the potential to massively erode support of the LP's from the lesser houses.

Jaime was right there. So was Barristan at that time. They both would have known. So would Connington, seeing as he became Hand for a time. And as @frenin quoted above, he also clearly thinks Aerys' paranoia to be unhealthy and problematic. He wouldn't think that if Aerys' fears had been justified. And this is from someone who absolutely loaths the Starks and Baratheon's.

And there's a whole lot of time between Rickard and Brandon's death and the Battle of the Bells, so Aerys clearly wasn't 'ready' to kill Robert regardless of Jon's decision. 

He didn't call for Benjen, Stannis and Renly's heads because they were safe in their own castles. Ned and Robert were not. And he called for Ned and Robert's heads not because they were named in some plot (or if they were, it was falsely, seeing as we know that Ned at least wasn't involved), he did because he was paranoid and insane and saw them as a threat.

 

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Barristan doesn't approach Dany because he wants to make sure she doesn't have the taint. He says Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was. 

Which is weird because Viserys was like 5. Also Selmy went to Essos to serve and die for Viserys 

Quote

I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—"

... Also Dany does have the taint, right? (If such a taint exists.) 

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Aerys is mentioned as Mad all over the place and I can't think of one single person in-world who disputes this with any credibility. It's treated as common knowledge entirely throughout the main story and TWOIAF like 2+2=4. I'm not gonna quote this myself because there's way too much.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=aerys+mad&scope[]=twoiaf

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=aerys+mad&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

Ok, I'll quote one thing. These are Jaime's thoughts, not his words to anyone.

AFFC Jaime II

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

By the end the Mad King had become so fearful that he would allow no blade in his presence, save for the swords his Kingsguard wore. His beard was matted and unwashed, his hair a silver-gold tangle that reached his waist, his fingernails cracked yellow claws nine inches long. Yet still the blades tormented him, the ones he could never escape, the blades of the Iron Throne. His arms and legs were always covered with scabs and half-healed cuts.

Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister's smile. Let him be the king of ashes. "Your Grace," he said, "might we have a private word?"

So here Mad King is capitalized cuz thats his name. Like if we mention unworthy kings and we say Aegon the Unworthy, its not really definitive proof that he was actually unworthy

Again, I do not think Aerys was all there, I definitely think he was evil and scary too, as Jaimes recollections show. I just dont think hes the picture Robert (whos sanity I question) painted was 100% accurate. (Not do I trust Tywin or Selmy)

 

[SFDanny]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The marriage between Robert and Lyanna would have created a strong bond between the two houses.  That alone will not be enough to threaten Targaryen rule.  However, add the marriage between Brandon and Catelyn and the balance of power changes.  I want to know what you believe. 

Do you believe Rickard Stark was plotting against King Aerys Targaryen?

Yes, absolutely. Lord Rickard was a critical part of a plot to do away with Targaryen rule. Not to simply remove Aerys, but to do away with Targaryen rule. The aim, I believe, was not to replace the Targaryens with another king to sit on the Iron Throne, but to create a new political reality, modeled in part on the old pre-Targaryen order of independent kingdoms based on the alliance of the High Lords of the realm. The leaders of The North, The Vale, The Stormlands, The Riverlands, and the Westerlands united to bring about this new version of political reality through their system of marriage alliances and fosterings. In so doing they could have renounced their oaths of fealty to the Iron Throne and had the political and military power to make it happen. 

In looking at this question, one should not just look at the marriage pacts of Robert/Lyanna and Brandon/Catelyn and the fostering of Ned and Robert in the Vale, but also the near betrothal of Jaime to Lysa and the attempts to marry into powerful families in the Reach like the aborted Blackfish marriage to House Redwyne, and possibly the Stannis marriage into House Florent (we don't know when the negotiations for this started.) The pattern of behavior on the part of the High Lords during Aerys's reign is unprecedented in its scope, and clearly represents a threat to the Targaryen crown.

What the reader need ask themselves, however, is not just that such a plot existed, but toward what political future does it point towards. In that regard, I would suggest that only a world in which kingship is restored, or, in the case of Tullys created for the first time, answers the widely differing ambitions of individuals such as Lords Rickard, Robert, Tywin, Hoster, and Jon Arryn. It makes no sense that these men are willing to risk all only to submit to another new dynasty. Tywin does not throw his lot in with Rickard and Robert to put one of them in power over him. He will join a plot in which makes him the new restored King of the Westerlands.

In all of this, I would suggest the evidence points the active involvement of the "maester's conspiracy" that is dedicated to the end of magic, prophecy, and the return of the dragons. In short, the overthrow of everything central to the founding of Targaryen rule.

On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It is generally believed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped Lyanna Stark.  If this is true, what do you believe were his reasons?  

What if Lyanna Stark ran away of her own choice.  For those who do not like Lyanna: Would you feel better about her if she did this to stop her father's marriage/political ambitions?

i do not think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Rather, I think, he rescues her from the upcoming marriage to Robert that she wants no part of. I believe his reasons for doing so are not only his love for Lyanna, but the debt owed to her for using her as a political act before those assembled at Harrenhal. I believe Rhaegar used her to show his refusal to allow Rickard's and the other High Lord's plans to go forward. In his crowning of Lyanna he shows his stand, alongside of his father, against any attempt to replace Targaryen rule. He symbolically shows his own interest in stopping the marriage to Robert.

I think the Lyanna we are shown wants nothing to do with her father's plans, and most especially his pledge to marry her to Robert. I believe what we see is Lyanna on her way to her brother's wedding, and perhaps on the way to her own wedding, and seizing on a chance meeting with Rhaegar as he travels in search for answers to his understanding of the dragon having three heads. I think Rhaegar is infatuated and lovestruck, but he also feels he owes Lyanna for Harrenhal. Combined with his own political interests in not having the wedding take place, he helps Lyanna run away from her father's plans for her. It is a rescue, as Daenerys tells us many years later, not a kidnapping or a elopement.

On 6/3/2020 at 6:23 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

You are King Aerys Targaryen.  How do you handle the potential danger of these marriage alliances?

At Harrenhal he shows us how a Targaryen king, without the power of dragons, deals with such plots. He steals Jaime from Tywin and uses him as a de facto hostage against Tywin's involvement in the conspiracy, and ends the marriage pact between House Lannister and Tully. He has already tied House Martell to Targaryen interests with the marriage of Rhaegar to Elia. What he does next to stop the growing alliance of his High Lords against him is a interesting question in the way of an alternate timeline, but what we do know is what he did when Brandon presented him with the opportunity to strike against his enemies. He dealt with them ruthlessly and killed not only Brandon and Rickard, but also summoned all the fathers of Brandon's party to present themselves to his "justice." If Jon Arryn had come to King's Landing, and had not protected Robert and Ned, then Rickard's "southron ambitions" would have come to naught.

[Adam Yozza]

37 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Yes, absolutely. Lord Rickard was a critical part of a plot to do away with Targaryen rule. Not to simply remove Aerys, but to do away with Targaryen rule. The aim, I believe, was not to replace the Targaryens with another king to sit on the Iron Throne, but to create a new political reality, modeled in part on the old pre-Targaryen order of independent kingdoms based on the alliance of the High Lords of the realm. The leaders of The North, The Vale, The Stormlands, The Riverlands, and the Westerlands united to bring about this new version of political reality through their system of marriage alliances and fosterings. In so doing they could have renounced their oaths of fealty to the Iron Throne and had the political and military power to make it happen. 

In looking at this question, one should not just look at the marriage pacts of Robert/Lyanna and Brandon/Catelyn and the fostering of Ned and Robert in the Vale, but also the near betrothal of Jaime to Lysa and the attempts to marry into powerful families in the Reach like the aborted Blackfish marriage to House Redwyne, and possibly the Stannis marriage into House Florent (we don't know when the negotiations for this started.) The pattern of behavior on the part of the High Lords during Aerys's reign is unprecedented in its scope, and clearly represents a threat to the Targaryen crown.

What the reader need ask themselves, however, is not just that such a plot existed, but toward what political future does it point towards. In that regard, I would suggest that only a world in which kingship is restored, or, in the case of Tullys created for the first time, answers the widely differing ambitions of individuals such as Lords Rickard, Robert, Tywin, Hoster, and Jon Arryn. It makes no sense that these men are willing to risk all only to submit to another new dynasty. Tywin does not throw his lot in with Rickard and Robert to put one of them in power over him. He will join a plot in which makes him the new restored King of the Westerlands.

In all of this, I would suggest the evidence points the active involvement of the "maester's conspiracy" that is dedicated to the end of magic, prophecy, and the return of the dragons. In short, the overthrow of everything central to the founding of Targaryen rule.

i do not think Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Rather, I think, he rescues her from the upcoming marriage to Robert that she wants no part of. I believe his reasons for doing so are not only his love for Lyanna, but the debt owed to her for using her as a political act before those assembled at Harrenhal. I believe Rhaegar used her to show his refusal to allow Rickard's and the other High Lord's plans to go forward. In his crowning of Lyanna he shows his stand, alongside of his father, against any attempt to replace Targaryen rule. He symbolically shows his own interest in stopping the marriage to Robert.

I think the Lyanna we are shown wants nothing to do with her father's plans, and most especially his pledge to marry her to Robert. I believe what we see is Lyanna on her way to her brother's wedding, and perhaps on the way to her own wedding, and seizing on a chance meeting with Rhaegar as he travels in search for answers to his understanding of the dragon having three heads. I think Rhaegar is infatuated and lovestruck, but he also feels he owes Lyanna for Harrenhal. Combined with his own political interests in not having the wedding take place, he helps Lyanna run away from her father's plans for her. It is a rescue, as Daenerys tells us many years later, not a kidnapping or a elopement.

At Harrenhal he shows us how a Targaryen king, without the power of dragons, deals with such plots. He steals Jaime from Tywin and uses him as a de facto hostage against Tywin's involvement in the conspiracy, and ends the marriage pact between House Lannister and Tully. He has already tied House Martell to Targaryen interests with the marriage of Rhaegar to Elia. What he does next to stop the growing alliance of his High Lords against him is a interesting question in the way of an alternate timeline, but what we do know is what he did when Brandon presented him with the opportunity to strike against his enemies. He dealt with them ruthlessly and killed not only Brandon and Rickard, but also summoned all the fathers of Brandon's party to present themselves to his "justice." If Jon Arryn had come to King's Landing, and had not protected Robert and Ned, then Rickard's "southron ambitions" would have come to naught.

There's one major flaw with this theory of yours; if the High Lords were plotting to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty and become independent again, why then didn't they do it after the rebellion when they had completed step one?

This theory doesn't work. If there was any conspiracy in the realm to remove Aerys from power, then it was Rhaegar's plot. Not Rickard's.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

There's one major flaw with this theory of yours; if the High Lords were plotting to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty and become independent again, why then didn't they do it after the rebellion when they had completed step one?

Because the plan changes as the rebellion unfolds. The marriages of Brandon to Catelyn and Robert to Lyanna never take place. As I point out, Tywin's participation in the plot ends with Jaime joining the Kingsguard. He only comes back in when he is clear who the winner will be. Tywin sits most of the war out refusing to reply to either side's entreaties or commands for support.We know from Martin that the rebels only choose Robert as a new king around the time of the Trident. The careful pre-rebellion plots of Lord Rickard's southron ambitions, so carefully built over many years are destroyed. Once the rebels have won at the Trident those old attempts to build a web of alliances based on mutual ambitions of the High Lords is replaced by the realities of a year plus long hard fought rebellion. Those realities no longer allow for equal treatment of the Martells, the Tyrells, or any of the other lords of the realm who sided with Aerys.

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

This theory doesn't work. If there was any conspiracy in the realm to remove Aerys from power, then it was Rhaegar's plot. Not Rickard's.

There are more than one plot at work here. There are multiple players in this game all with their own interests. Yes, Rhaegar had his plans to remove Aerys, but he wants to continue Targaryen rule with himself on the throne. Rickard and his alliance does not. It looks to me like Brandon makes this very clear at Harrenhal.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:18 PM, Lady Topspin said:

I don't know what Rickard's intent towards the Targaryens was.  But it would have been bad for the Targaryens if those marriages had happened.  I would not care what Rickard wanted to do.  I would command Rickard and Robert to marry their bannermen's daughters instead.  I will have them killed if they refused to obey.  They were becoming dangerous to the Targaryens.  Something had to be done to protect the Targaryen dynasty.  

Sure, give Rickard a chance to obey.  Burn Winterfell with Wildfire if he refuses.  We, of course, do not know if that was not tried and Rickard disobeyed.  He deserved an execution if he was commanded to change his plans and he refused.