Will Westeros ever change?

[King Adrian Storm]

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

 

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

I think Westeros will become a place where magic is common and Bran as a greenseer and a warg will be king from the Gods Eye. It might not happen and I might be wrong but it’s what I imagine as I feel like magic is coming back into the world , not leaving. As for the others and how they’re defeated, well, your guess is as good as mine until we find out more about them in TWOW.

[King Adrian Storm]

4 minutes ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

I think Westeros will become a place where magic is common and Bran as a greenseer and a warg will be king from the Gods Eye. It might not happen and I might be wrong but it’s what I imagine as I feel like magic is coming back into the world , not leaving. As for the others and how they’re defeated, well, your guess is as good as mine until we find out more about them in TWOW.

It's funny you say that, because it's how I want the story to end as well. I posted this as an observation, and to see what the responses to this sort of ending would be. I've tried posting my King Bran theories before including book evidence and it was deleted.

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

12 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

It's funny you say that, because it's how I want the story to end as well. I posted this as an observation, and to see what the responses to this sort of ending would be. I've tried posting my King Bran theories before including book evidence and it was deleted.

Yep and I’m pretty sure D&D said that making Bran king at the end of the abomination was George’s idea too. 

[Mordred]

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power.  Those people are the ones causing the most problems.  They will have to be removed and swept away in order for something better to start.  Queen Daenerys and her party can reform Westeros and build from the ruins left behind by the White Walkers.  A lot of work will need to be done to undo the destruction caused by the Lannisters, Jon Snow, the Starks, and the Greyjoys.

[The Young Maester]

22 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power.  Those people are the ones causing the most problems.  They will have to be removed and swept away in order for something better to start.  Queen Daenerys and her party can reform Westeros and build from the ruins left behind by the White Walkers.  A lot of work will need to be done to undo the destruction caused by the Lannisters, Jon Snow, the Starks, and the Greyjoys.

Wait why Doran? He is probably one of the best rulers in westeros atm. 

[rotting sea cow]

7 hours ago, Mordred said:

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power. 

I wonder what reason you have to put real monsters like Euron and Ramsay together with Jon and Doran, who might be wrong on certain things but overall are nice people. Just personal biases I'd guess. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

10 hours ago, Mordred said:

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power.  Those people are the ones causing the most problems.  They will have to be removed and swept away in order for something better to start.  Queen Daenerys and her party can reform Westeros and build from the ruins left behind by the White Walkers.  A lot of work will need to be done to undo the destruction caused by the Lannisters, Jon Snow, the Starks, and the Greyjoys.

Chill with the Dany fanboyism. As Robb showed it doesn't matter how pure your intentions are, when you play the game of thrones in the end you will cause ore harm then good. The solution to Westeros's problems isn't a good king, that is just a stopgap measure as Jaehaerys showed. He was the best King ever and he couldn't stop the place going tits up after his death.

10 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Wait why Doran? He is probably one of the best rulers in westeros atm. 

Exactly. Him and Edmure are the only people right now that aren't entitled duchebags (completely). Stannis and Jon too seem to be on a course to realize just how bs the Game is, though they are still both a bit far from that point.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I wonder what reason you have to put real monsters like Euron and Ramsay together with Jon and Doran, who might be wrong on certain things but overall are nice people. Just personal biases I'd guess. 

Beacause they are against Dany so to him they are bad.

 

All in all the solution to Westeros will not be a person but rather a change of how legitimacy is perceived (right now it is blood legitimacy with a bit of legitimacy by conquest, it should be legitimacy form the people). And Westeros works. My guess is that it is going to be a 3 step journey.

- Aegon will win the Throne with limited noble support, him relying more on the people then on the nobles. This will be the first time the people had a say in who is King.

- Dany will then take over and become an absolutist (and slightly tyrannical) monarch and due to her killing Aegon she will be hated by the masses. When she does die, two things will become clear. Such a war must not be allowed to happen again and the people will start to matter. So a code of laws will be implemented to establish clear succession laws, a legistlative body comprised of all nobles will be assembled, and the people will be given some voice in the ruling of the realm (though the nobility will still have the most power). Basically the beginning of constitutional monarchy,

[Loge]

The biggest change obviously will be the seasons. We don't know for sure but its very likely that beating the Others will fix the seasons. Not sure about the political implications but I don't really care, if truth be told. The economic reasons for the feudal system will still be in place, so that system should stay. You could wish for something like democracy but it would be very unrealistic and therefore a bad ending.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The world in the Wire was cyclical, but even there, the rules of the game didn't remain exactly the same.

As for ASOIAF, I can't imagine nothing changes in the end. Both Westeros and Essos are embroiled in war, disease, religious and peasant/slave uprisings... and on top of that you have a mystical long winter and the Others. Westeros will be left with chunks of its population decimated. The lords can still play their games, but who'll fight for them? Who're they gonna collect their taxes from?

It would be unrealistic for Westeros to suddenly become a democracy, but to me, a satisfying ending must include a shift in power towards the smallfolk. You can't go on about the plight of the smallfolk for five books (plus the Dunk & Egg novellas) and then keep same the system that oppresses them.

24 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Dany will then take over and become an absolutist (and slightly tyrannical) monarch and due to her killing Aegon she will be hated by the masses. When she does die, two things will become clear. Such a war must not be allowed to happen again and the people will start to matter. So a code of laws will be implemented to establish clear succession laws, a legistlative body comprised of all nobles will be assembled, and the people will be given some voice in the ruling of the realm (though the nobility will still have the most power). Basically the beginning of constitutional monarchy,

Oh yes, it's the Dany fanboys who are ridiculously biased.

[The Young Maester]

37 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It would be unrealistic for Westeros to suddenly become a democracy, but to me, a satisfying ending must include a shift in power towards the smallfolk. You can't go on about the plight of the smallfolk for five books (plus the Dunk & Egg novellas) and then keep same the system that oppresses them.

It could be something similar to the aftermaths of the Black Plague. The peasants realising that their is little competition for certain jobs, started asking for higher wages from their bosses, and if the boss refused it would be very hard for them to find a replacement that is good enough. So they’d cave into their demands. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

21 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It would be unrealistic for Westeros to suddenly become a democracy, but to me, a satisfying ending must include a shift in power towards the smallfolk. You can't go on about the plight of the smallfolk for five books (plus the Dunk & Egg novellas) and then keep same the system that oppresses them.

It could be something similar to the aftermaths of the Black Plague. The peasants realising that their is little competition for certain jobs, started asking for higher wages from their bosses, and if the boss refused it would be very hard for them to find a replacement that is good enough. So they’d cave into their demands. 

I think that was Aegon the V. We know some of his reforms are still around. And by bet is that the most important one is the end of serfdom. All in all from what we've seen the smallfolk does have some economic power. It's political power they have none. And I agree that is going to change. Not much by the end of the story, but it will be a beginning.

[Damsel in Distress]

13 hours ago, Mordred said:

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power.  Those people are the ones causing the most problems.  They will have to be removed and swept away in order for something better to start.  Queen Daenerys and her party can reform Westeros and build from the ruins left behind by the White Walkers.  A lot of work will need to be done to undo the destruction caused by the Lannisters, Jon Snow, the Starks, and the Greyjoys.

Robert, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, Petyr Baelish, Cersei Lannister, Jon Snow, Balon, and Rob Stark brought Westeros on its knees.  It will take an outside power to come in and save the people.  I believe that person to be Dany. And her advisors.    

[BalerionTheCat]

15 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

I think Westeros will become a place where magic is common and Bran as a greenseer and a warg will be king from the Gods Eye.

I also believe Bran will make the Old Gods and the CotF magic strong again. With weirwood all over Westeros again. He will be the eyes. But I don't think he will be the king, sitting and ruling, a figure people would believe in and follow.

Kings are kingdoms are not something of the CotF, the Free Folk or the First Men. Clans with chieftains. People following leaders close to them. Referring to other renowned leaders, like Mance or the Stark at crisis time. But independent and free otherwise. Jon, the remaining Starks, other people having shown their colors during the LN will be these leaders.

15 hours ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

As for the others and how they’re defeated, well, your guess is as good as mine

I don't think the Others will be defeated. They come IMO, as in the Yi Ti legends: because of the crimes and evils of men. And there has been plenty recently. I they were vanquished in battle, it would be the signal the shit can resume, worse than ever. Nowhere in the Last Hero legend, it is stated that the Others were defeated in battle. The men were defeated, this single hero the last hope. The only escape was in making peace with them. And Azor Ahai led the virtuous in battle. It is not said it was against the Others.

[Loose Bolt]

As long as nobles have almost total control of military, administration and juridical matters nothing could not really change. Or any major changes are not possible unless there would be standing army, civil servants that are loyal to central government and working justice system that would follow rule of law instead of any whims of local lordling.

Besides nobles also seems to have very strong control of economy and land. So property rights of commoners are also lacking.

In real life making reforms that fixed all those problems took hundreds of years and sometimes only way to make those was by using violence. For instance land reforms or who owns the land. So I do not think that we will see any major chances in Westeros during last books of the serie. 

[Darth Sidious]

51 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

As long as nobles have almost total control of military, administration and juridical matters nothing could not really change. Or any major changes are not possible unless there would be standing army, civil servants that are loyal to central government and working justice system that would follow rule of law instead of any whims of local lordling.

Besides nobles also seems to have very strong control of economy and land. So property rights of commoners are also lacking.

In real life making reforms that fixed all those problems took hundreds of years and sometimes only way to make those was by using violence. For instance land reforms or who owns the land. So I do not think that we will see any major chances in Westeros during last books of the serie. 

Nobles having control of the economy and the land is what feudalism is about.  All that will change when ice and darkness cover the land.  That's the environment for you.  It can do easily what politics cannot.  Violence can work.  

[Hugorfonics]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:03 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

 

The game is the game...

Always.

.

Stark and Lannister may make peace like Barksdale and Stanfield, they may even dethrone the prop, Joe, but still, the integrity of the game is still there. Woe to all Bells, Bunnies Berics and Jon Snow who see the Game as anything but a chess board with its strict rules.

Quote

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads.

(It could be done. After years of deciding how to play, Daniels decides not to. Namond Brice as well got out.

Can Dany find her red door? Probably not. But, maybe... Its a shame Bunny cant adopt her too)

21 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Wait why Doran? He is probably one of the best rulers in westeros atm. 

Best for whom? The prince that was raised away? Who dedicated his death to steal two dragons on behalf of his father's wish? Or the princess who was kept in the dark her whole life in preparation to marry Viserys? Or the mother who watched her children be bartered back and forth like the Cyvesse piece their father saw them as?

Dorans entire existence is dedicated to vengance, I wouldn't put him in the "best rulers" catagory (id only actually put Edmure. Beric Cat and Jon Snow too, if we're not saying legally)

[867-5309]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:51 PM, Mordred said:

Westeros is not going to get any better as long as unfit people like Cersei, Petyr Baelish, Doran, Ramsey Bolton, Jon Snow, and Euron Greyjoy have power.  Those people are the ones causing the most problems.  They will have to be removed and swept away in order for something better to start.  Queen Daenerys and her party can reform Westeros and build from the ruins left behind by the White Walkers.  A lot of work will need to be done to undo the destruction caused by the Lannisters, Jon Snow, the Starks, and the Greyjoys.

I am hoping the Starks and the Lannisters will completely destroy themselves.  That should open the way for a smoother restoration of Targaryen rule.

[Quoth the raven,]

20 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Robert, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, Petyr Baelish, Cersei Lannister, Jon Snow, Balon, and Rob Stark brought Westeros on its knees.  It will take an outside power to come in and save the people.  I believe that person to be Dany. And her advisors.    

Most of those troublemakers are already dead.  We only have to deal with Cersei, Jon, and LF.  Dracarys.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:03 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

 

On the Wire, system didn't change, but the main characters found peace. Bubbles' ending? That was the heart of the show and he found rehab. It wasn't all dark. 

I dont think its a powerful message to have everything be bleak, some characters need to find what they were looking for. Or, perhaps not necessarily what they are looking for, but what they need. This is how good writers deliver an ending.