Will Westeros ever change?

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:14 PM, The Young Maester said:

Wait why Doran? He is probably one of the best rulers in westeros atm. 

Is he though? He wants to ride the dragon.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:05 AM, Loose Bolt said:

As long as nobles have almost total control of military, administration and juridical matters nothing could not really change. Or any major changes are not possible unless there would be standing army, civil servants that are loyal to central government and working justice system that would follow rule of law instead of any whims of local lordling.

Besides nobles also seems to have very strong control of economy and land. So property rights of commoners are also lacking.

In real life making reforms that fixed all those problems took hundreds of years and sometimes only way to make those was by using violence. For instance land reforms or who owns the land. So I do not think that we will see any major chances in Westeros during last books of the serie. 

I dont think GRRM is a revolutionary; I think he's a reformist.

[Lion of the West]

EDITED: Forget about it. Please remove.

[Darth Sidious]

20 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

I am hoping the Starks and the Lannisters will completely destroy themselves.  That should open the way for a smoother restoration of Targaryen rule.

  I would love it.  

[Mordred]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:02 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

Robert, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, Petyr Baelish, Cersei Lannister, Jon Snow, Balon, and Rob Stark brought Westeros on its knees.  It will take an outside power to come in and save the people.  I believe that person to be Dany. And her advisors.    

Robert, Jon Arryn, Ned, Jon, Balon, and Robb are gone.  We just need to roast Littlefinger and Cersei. 

[Curled Finger]

Magic is the problem with the seasons, not necessarily the people.   We have plenty of examples of how X type rule works and doesn't.  Not everyone is ready for whatever we might consider to be fair and progressive rule.   Monarchy can work if the guy at the top is surrounded by smart like minded people.  I don't think the point of this story is to wipe out any and all progress men brought.  If magic is a problem it needs to go and that would include all magic, from dragons to greenseeing and everything in between.  We don't know that magic is the problem and with balance an informed, enlightened magic practitioner could make a great ruler for Westeros.  As with Dany and her dragons, we get a look at how fire can be used both effectively and poorly.  The same can be said for whatever catchall phrase we can use for greenseeing and warging and all that peculiarly Westerosi magic.  It's clear Westeros requires a fire breathing, greenseeing, flying, skinchanging, clairvoyant warg to set things straight.  

[The Fattest Leech]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:03 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

 

The change and social advancement of Westeros is the whole point of Bran's arc (enlightenment). And before anyone assumes wrongly, this idea has been discussed far longer than the abomination, this is ALL book based.

[divica]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The change and social advancement of Westeros is the whole point of Bran's arc (enlightenment). And before anyone assumes wrongly, this idea has been discussed far longer than the abomination, this is ALL book based.

I could see this pre AFfC/ADwD. I have said this multiple times, but the whole point of these books is to show us how people like jon, danny, cersei and euron rule. Show them deliang with everyday problems and crisis, make mistakes and good decisions… Besides that we have hints about Aegon and arianne possible style.

 

If we end up with someone becoming the ideal ruler because he learned about the past and lost his personal interestests in the process (and I think we all must agree that become the 3ec will have some cost)it would destroy the whole point of these books. And even if bran gets out of the cave and returns north I can t see him doing anytime soon. By that time someone will be ruling the north and having organized the defense of the north… If grrm ends his series with a new monarch that we have never seen rule for a long period of time then it would go against everything he has been saying...

[divica]

On 6/5/2020 at 11:03 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

 

I don t think there will be a huge diference in the ruling sistem. It doesn t make sense...

But I hope people will change a lot. North of the neck will be filled with people sick of war, less civilized, mourning, refugees and that follow the old gods (at lest not the 7) so I can see them forming their kingdom (basically the north, wildlings and maybe ironborn). I can even see them adopting something similar to a kingsmoot to chose their ruler. I wouldn t it strange if jon ends up in charge of a place like this at least for a while.

On the other hand the south will be traumatized with the lannisters, fake and true targs, maybe greyscale, the apearance of monsters they thought were legends, dragons… I could see them seting for faegon that looks like what they want in a king. They don t care anymore if he really a targ or no as long as he is sane, follow their gods, looks pretty and rules well.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:03 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

I have been thinking lately about possible ways the political system of Westeros can change, and bring peace to the world in the end, and each one sounds kind of cheesy to me. I was thinking what if Westeros never changes? If any of you have ever seen HBO's The Wire (spoilers if you haven't seen it), you know in the end, the city of Baltimore doesn't change. It stays the corrupted city that it was at the beginning. When you first see it, it may seem a bit anticlimactic, but when you really think about it, it was the perfect ending to that kind of show. Relating to a song of ice and fire, what if the books end, with Westeros staying the politically corrupted country it has always been? Do you really see a way that all of the characters can come together, and bring peace in the end? There are tons of people with plans to take the throne for themselves.

Examples of how this would look story wise:

- Faegon becomes king in the end, even though he is not the true heir but the people love him.

He is not the true heir.  So in your scenario, his reign will be built on a weak foundation, a lie.  And that lie will come out and be the ruin of his reign.  So no, he will be bad news for Westeros because his reign, if he even gets that far, is built on fraud and dishonesty.  He will be no better than Joffrey Lannister. 

- Jon Snow the true heir, stays with the night's watch.

I will argue with you that Jon is not the true heir.  But that is a discussion for another time, another topic.  Jon should stay with the night's watch, whoever and whatever he may be.  He took an oath.  And that oath is more important than family.  Jon would be a very awful king anyway. 

- Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly rock, but his hate for his family has consumed him.

Tyrion already gave away Lannister lands to his new friends in Essos.  Very little will be left.  They are not going to let him off.  The reason why I do not like Tyrion is because he doesn't hate the Lannisters enough.  I think he will side with his brothers and sisters when push comes to shove.  A Song of ice and Fire is a study on how love and attachment cause people to make bad decisions.  

- The Others are defeated, but the people don't get the (metaphorical) point of why they attacked, and continue scheming against each other.

- Daenerys comes to save Westeros but fails.

Westeros will be a dark continent for the next 80 years.  The only move is to relocate the people.  Her goal will be preserving as many lives as she can.  It won't be to save the continent itself.   I don't think she will fail.  She has more discipline compared to Robb and Jon; more wisdom compared to Cersei.  She will know the solution is to move the people over to Essos.  Essos will have to be prepared in advance. 

- Littlefinger has turned Sansa into a monster, and she overthrows him and takes power in the Vale for herself.

That can happen but the plot will be a lot more interesting if she puts all of her hope on Littlefinger and supports him all the way to their bitter ends. 

- Arya kills all of her enemies as an assassain but loses herself.

Or maybe she dies trying.  Maybe she has a change of heart, experiences remorse, and checks herself into a sept to join the Silent Sisters as penance for her crimes. 

This isn't necassarily want I would want to happen, but I think it would be a powerful message.

  The Long Night cannot be stopped and the only smart move is to relocate.  I understand how big of an upheaval this will be.  I mean, the nobility's power is based on land control.  Moving to Essos will change their status and most will choose to remain.  And they will die in their castles as easily as the peasants do in their hovels.  The ones with an open mind and the means can cross over to Essos.  The ones with boats can try their luck in the southern islands and fight the legendary creatures that are rumored to exists there. 

[broken one]

Westeros (or the whole world) seems to be progress free. Many thousands years of pretty the same thing as for technology, political and social matters. Maybe because of magic. I don't think anything will change, slavers gonna enslave, knights gonna joust.

[King Adrian Storm]

7 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

 

You don't understand my point. I know Aegon isn't the true heir, him becoming king in the end despite not being the true heir would be very ironic Considering all these claimants fighting for their RIGHT to the throne, and a fake Aegon ends up winning. He's a good king, but not the true heir. 

Ummm. Tyrion does hate the Lannisters. You must be thinking of the show. He literally said he was going to rape and kill Cersei! He also fantasizes about killing Tywin again, and hacking at jaime's head with an axe. How  much more could he hate them?

About relocating, why would they relocate? When the long night comes, it will be winter all over the world, not just Westeros. Essos will face the winter just as Westeros does. There is no logic or foreshadowing in the seven kingdoms moving to Essos. They would just create a new seven kingdoms in Essos.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 6/16/2020 at 8:55 AM, King Adrian Storm said:

You don't understand my point. I know Aegon isn't the true heir, him becoming king in the end despite not being the true heir would be very ironic Considering all these claimants fighting for their RIGHT to the throne, and a fake Aegon ends up winning. He's a good king, but not the true heir. 

Ummm. Tyrion does hate the Lannisters. You must be thinking of the show. He literally said he was going to rape and kill Cersei! He also fantasizes about killing Tywin again, and hacking at jaime's head with an axe. How  much more could he hate them?

About relocating, why would they relocate? When the long night comes, it will be winter all over the world, not just Westeros. Essos will face the winter just as Westeros does. There is no logic or foreshadowing in the seven kingdoms moving to Essos. They would just create a new seven kingdoms in Essos.

I understood your question.  I just do not agree with some of your ideas.  Look, if Aegon becomes king, knowing he is not the true heir, then he is a fraud.  He is guilty of deceit.  Therefore he is not a good king.  His reign will start off on the wrong foot and it will be built on a foundation of lies. 

Winter will be mild in the southern latitudes.  The Others have so far not threatened Essos.  The best course of action is to avoid them and move as far away from them as possible.  Staying and fighting an enemy who can raise the dead is futile.