200 valyrian steel swords?

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

I'm sure it's been asked before but I havent seen. Is it a mistake when tyrion says there are a thousand valyrian swords and 200 in Westeros alone, seems like alot when we've only heard of a few. And I find it hard to belive if there where that many at some point a house would have fell on hard times and/or been on the wrong side of a war and there sword would have became available for a man like Tywin Lannister

[Aebram]

Good question: where are those other 800 swords? I suppose that, as in Westeros, many of them belong to wealthy families in the Free Cities, and perhaps in other parts of Essos as well. Sellsword companies might have some too.

A thousand swords could be enough to make a decisive difference in a battle against the Others, but only if they can all be brought together with a common command ... Maybe Asshai has a militia, and every man equipped with dragonsteel???

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Good question: where are those other 800 swords? I suppose that, as in Westeros, many of them belong to wealthy families in the Free Cities, and perhaps in other parts of Essos as well. Sellsword companies might have some too.

A thousand swords could be enough to make a decisive difference in a battle against the Others, but only if they can all be brought together with a common command ... Maybe Asshai has a militia, and every man equipped with dragonsteel???

Behind the walls of Old Volantis?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

This is something I’ve always wondered about, feels like 200 is way too much

[dsjj251]

48 minutes ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

This is something I’ve always wondered about, feels like 200 is way too much

200 isnt that many. 

 

House Stark, Lannister, Royce, Corbray, Tarly, Mormont, Harlaw, Drumm, Tarly, Roxton, and Hightower  all had one at one point. 

2 of  those blades being stolen from others. I think its safe to say most of the major Houses have one, just never mentioned. 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Tyrion actually says blades, not swords.  Here is the quote:

Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone.  ASOS Tyrion IV.

The Valyrian Steel swords in Westeros appear to have names unlike the daggers we have seen.  Thus far there have been 15 named VS swords in Westeros.  

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

200 isnt that many. 

 

House Stark, Lannister, Royce, Corbray, Tarly, Mormont, Harlaw, Drumm, Tarly, Roxton, and Hightower  all had one at one point. 

2 of  those blades being stolen from others. I think its safe to say most of the major Houses have one, just never mentioned. 

 

 

11 is far from 200. Even if the major houses had one wich I dont think they do what's that 30 maybe? I'd consider a major house to be one of the 7 rueling houses and the biggest bannerman to each of them like Tully's have the freys... and like I said if there where 200 you would thing Tywin could have got one easily 

[Trigger Warning]

Yeah I don't like that little snippet of information, it's supposed to show how valuable they are in that there's so many yet Tywin still can't acquire one but in my opinion it just sounds ridiculous that Tywin Lannister couldn't leverage one of 200 different owners to give up a sword despite being arguably the most influential person in the Seven Kingdoms besides Robert. 

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Yeah I don't like that little snippet of information, it's supposed to show how valuable they are in that there's so many yet Tywin still can't acquire one but in my opinion it just sounds ridiculous that Tywin Lannister couldn't leverage one of 200 different owners to give up a sword despite being arguably the most influential person in the Seven Kingdoms besides Robert. 

What’s Tywin going to do? Take them by force? He’d be in trouble with the law. Nobody would sympathize with him either. Why would they support a great house attacking a lesser house to steal their heirloom? I like the fact that despite having so much gold, so much influence, and so much power, Tywin can’t get what he wants because not everything is about money. It’s a good limitation and frustration for him to have.  

[The hairy bear]

As Curled Finger says, Tyrion's quote mentions 200 blades. That would include the catspaw blade, Lord Celtigar's axe, and plenty of other minor weapons that do not get the fame or recognition of the Valyrian steel swords.

Tywin was only interested in purchasing longswords, so the number of potential sellers would be lower.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

What’s Tywin going to do? Take them by force?

There would be an excuse for that at every single armed conflict in Westeros. If the Reynes or the Tarbeks had owned a Valyrian Steel sword, it would be Tywin's now. Similarly, any lord of the West who had sided with the Blackfyre's, would have seen their sword taken by Damon Lannister.

If there were 200 Valyrian steel longswords in Westeros, that would average about 25 per region.  It's difficult for me to believe that there could be so high an amount when most of the Great Lords (and the royal house) do not own any. It would require us to assume that none of those houses never chose the losing side of a war in at least 3 centuries. But only during the war of the 5 kings we have seen many powerful houses dispossessed of their ancestral seats and possessions: the Tullys, the Carons, the Darrys, the Hornwoods...

IMHO, the best way to reconcile this is to assume that there's only two or three dozen Valyrian swords in Westeros, and stick to the more generous interpretation of Tyrion's "blades"

[dsjj251]

9 hours ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

11 is far from 200. Even if the major houses had one wich I dont think they do what's that 30 maybe? I'd consider a major house to be one of the 7 rueling houses and the biggest bannerman to each of them like Tully's have the freys... and like I said if there where 200 you would thing Tywin could have got one easily 

The point of listing the 11 swords was to show that Houses both large and small, rich and poor have them, 

To further my argument, House Targaryen had 2 of them, House Celtigar has an Axe. There are daggars and arakhs, and links in Maesters chains. Ice is 400 years old, meaning it was forged as the Doom came. 

Buying and having the sword wasnt so prestigious (uncommon) that any decent sized house couldnt have one if they wanted.  Once the Doom came, there simply wasnt anyone left to forge new ones, so that is what made them precious. 

Also, you and I define major differently. In short, I define it as any house to have every styled themselves  as kings; That is 89 according to the wiki, I would also add in any house that has ruled over other decent size houses or have acquired wealth. 
 

Not to  hard to get to 200 from there. 

As for Tywin, having a lot of money doesnt mean anyone is willing to give up something that is now considered priceless. 

 

 

[dsjj251]

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

As Curled Finger says, Tyrion's quote mentions 200 blades. That would include the catspaw blade, Lord Celtigar's axe, and plenty of other minor weapons that do not get the fame or recognition of the Valyrian steel swords.

Tywin was only interested in purchasing longswords, so the number of potential sellers would be lower.

There would be an excuse for that at every single armed conflict in Westeros. If the Reynes or the Tarbeks had owned a Valyrian Steel sword, it would be Tywin's now. Similarly, any lord of the West who had sided with the Blackfyre's, would have seen their sword taken by Damon Lannister.

If there were 200 Valyrian steel longswords in Westeros, that would average about 25 per region.  It's difficult for me to believe that there could be so high an amount when most of the Great Lords (and the royal house) do not own any. It would require us to assume that none of those houses never chose the losing side of a war in at least 3 centuries. But only during the war of the 5 kings we have seen many powerful houses dispossessed of their ancestral seats and possessions: the Tullys, the Carons, the Darrys, the Hornwoods...

IMHO, the best way to reconcile this is to assume that there's only two or three dozen Valyrian swords in Westeros, and stick to the more generous interpretation of Tyrion's "blades"

 

George leaves out a lot of info, so its quite possible many houses have them and they are never mentioned. House Hightower is technically the most powerful individual house, and their sword isnt even mentioned in the main story. only in The Princess and the Queen. 

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, James Steller said:

What’s Tywin going to do? Take them by force? He’d be in trouble with the law. Nobody would sympathize with him either. Why would they support a great house attacking a lesser house to steal their heirloom? I like the fact that despite having so much gold, so much influence, and so much power, Tywin can’t get what he wants because not everything is about money. It’s a good limitation and frustration for him to have.  

I just don't believe that not one out of those 200 would cave to financial or political pressure. I'd agree with you if it was a smaller number. 

[The hairy bear]

2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

As for Tywin, having a lot of money doesnt mean anyone is willing to give up something that is now considered priceless.

But the thing is that powerful lords would have plenty of ways to forcefully acquire Valyrian steel swords from lesser houses. Every time that a vassal of him was on the wrong side of a war, was late on paying the taxes or showed any sign of disloyalty, he would have an excuse to expropriate the sword.

After three centuries, many of the swords of the minor lords would have been seized by the Great Houses. Just the same way as we know of many houses that have had their lands and keeps taken away by their overlords. If the VS swords were that common, Tywin (or any Lannister Lord before him) would have had plenty of chances to get one.

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

George leaves out a lot of info, so its quite possible many houses have them and they are never mentioned.

There's no doubt that there are plenty of houses owning VS swords that we haven't heard about.

My point is not that the Crakehalls, the Fells or the Yronwoods can't have VS swords. Even a minor lordling on a remote valley in the Reach that we've never heard about could have a VS swords. My point is that if the number of VS swords was as high as 200, every Great Lord would own one.

We know that the Lannisters and the Tullys don't have one. We can't be reasonably sure that neither the Arryns, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys and the Tyrells. That only leaves the Martells as realistic candidates to own a VS sword that we haven't heard about before.

So at the start of ASOIAF, only 1 or 2 out the 8 greater houses owned a VS sword after centuries of civil wars, banishments, extortions and marriages. I would only buy it if they were much scarcer than 200.

[dsjj251]

27 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

But the thing is that powerful lords would have plenty of ways to forcefully acquire Valyrian steel swords from lesser houses. Every time that a vassal of him was on the wrong side of a war, was late on paying the taxes or showed any sign of disloyalty, he would have an excuse to expropriate the sword.

After three centuries, many of the swords of the minor lords would have been seized by the Great Houses. Just the same way as we know of many houses that have had their lands and keeps taken away by their overlords. If the VS swords were that common, Tywin (or any Lannister Lord before him) would have had plenty of chances to get one.

There's no doubt that there are plenty of houses owning VS swords that we haven't heard about.

My point is not that the Crakehalls, the Fells or the Yronwoods can't have VS swords. Even a minor lordling on a remote valley in the Reach that we've never heard about could have a VS swords. My point is that if the number of VS swords was as high as 200, every Great Lord would own one.

We know that the Lannisters and the Tullys don't have one. We can't be reasonably sure that neither the Arryns, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys and the Tyrells. That only leaves the Martells as realistic candidates to own a VS sword that we haven't heard about before.

So at the start of ASOIAF, only 1 or 2 out the 8 greater houses owned a VS sword after centuries of civil wars, banishments, extortions and marriages. I would only buy it if they were much scarcer than 200.

Again, my point is that GRRM hasnt made a big deal out of Houses having these swords, only that they cant be made any more. He doesnt even mention many of these swords in the main story. These houses could have swords and GRRM simply not mention them.

[The hairy bear]

I think George has made it a big deal.

Tyrion says that their owner cherish their swords more than their daughters. Randyll Tally justifies disowning Sam with the argument that "Heartsbane must go to a man strong to wield her". At his all-time low and having been sentence to death, Jorah Mormont doesn't dare to take Longclaw with him. Even the Blackfyres justify their claim by arguing that Daemon was given the Valyrian Steel blade of the kings.

It's an item that it's instantly recognized by the POVs when there's someone nearby with it. Catelyn describes Heartsbane when he meets Randyll at Renly's camp. Dunk remembers Dark Sister from the time he saw Bloodraven at KL. Aerion notices Red Rain and Nightfall at the kingsmoot. It can be reasonably assumed that if in any scene from the book there was a VS sword around, the POV would mention it.

[dsjj251]

37 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I think George has made it a big deal.

Tyrion says that their owner cherish their swords more than their daughters. Randyll Tally justifies disowning Sam with the argument that "Heartsbane must go to a man strong to wield her". At his all-time low and having been sentence to death, Jorah Mormont doesn't dare to take Longclaw with him. Even the Blackfyres justify their claim by arguing that Daemon was given the Valyrian Steel blade of the kings.

It's an item that it's instantly recognized by the POVs when there's someone nearby with it. Catelyn describes Heartsbane when he meets Randyll at Renly's camp. Dunk remembers Dark Sister from the time he saw Bloodraven at KL. Aerion notices Red Rain and Nightfall at the kingsmoot. It can be reasonably assumed that if in any scene from the book there was a VS sword around, the POV would mention it.

Randyll Tarly is disowning his son in general and using the sword as a proxy for earned honor. Same for Jorah and the Blackfyres. 

The fact that the Mormonts even have a sword should be reason enough to call into question How hard/expensive it was to get one of these swords when they were still being forged, which is not hard at all. 
 

[frenin]

57 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

The fact that the Mormonts even have a sword should be reason enough to call into question How hard/expensive it was to get one of these swords when they were still being forged, which is not hard at all. 

There is no reason to believe the Mormonts bought their sword tho. Just as the Peake did not buy Orphan Maker

[dsjj251]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

There is no reason to believe the Mormonts bought their sword tho. Just as the Peake did not buy Orphan Maker

By that logic, we are only told of 3 of these swords being commissioned, so this argument goes both ways. 

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

The point of listing the 11 swords was to show that Houses both large and small, rich and poor have them, 

To further my argument, House Targaryen had 2 of them, House Celtigar has an Axe. There are daggars and arakhs, and links in Maesters chains. Ice is 400 years old, meaning it was forged as the Doom came. 

Buying and having the sword wasnt so prestigious (uncommon) that any decent sized house couldnt have one if they wanted.  Once the Doom came, there simply wasnt anyone left to forge new ones, so that is what made them precious. 

Also, you and I define major differently. In short, I define it as any house to have every styled themselves  as kings; That is 89 according to the wiki, I would also add in any house that has ruled over other decent size houses or have acquired wealth. 
 

Not to  hard to get to 200 from there. 

As for Tywin, having a lot of money doesnt mean anyone is willing to give up something that is now considered priceless. 

 

 

Well look at how Tywin get his sword; he gets it by defeating a family in war who owned one in the Starks. So that's never happened before? With there being 200 of them I find it very hard to belive and ok he said blades. I think it's safe to say the sword is the most popular blade but let's go your way and say only half of the 200 are swords, that's still means there should be 12 Vs sword in the west alone but the lannisters as well as the other 2 houses Tywin destroyed (the Reines and tarbecks) didnt own one. If they had Tywin would have got it. Theres just not any logical answer for both there being that many and the most powerful man from one of the most powerful houses to not be abel to get one before he finally does