UK Politics: Black Lives Matter Here Too

[Alarich II]

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

It infers that Germany are behind Auschwitz remaining as as a memorial - as if they decided to keep it up and maintain it (whixh suggests its in German territory.

Maybe it's a reference that the German state set up and finances a foundation dedicated to the preservation of the historical site at Auschwitz (Of the 120 Mio EUR needed, they contributed about 60 Mio iirc)? I don't know, the post war preservation of Auschwitz as an international place to remember the Holocaust was a collective effort, mostly carried by the nations who were victims of the Nazis, whereas the concentration camps in Germany (Dachau, Neuengamme, Buchenwald etc.) are mainly preserved by public foundations financed by the German state.

[Ser Reptitious]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Now we have a problem, are you saying only those who have a historic grievance get a pass for ripping down a statue if its subject was a monster? 

I’m honestly not sure what you mean here. If you could answer the questions I posed in the very next paragraph after the part you quoted that would be helpful.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

15 hours ago, Hereward said:

Corbyn had all the faults of Johnson in his organisational abilities, plus he shared Johnson’s views on the EU, plus he wanted to abolish the UK military, plus he is an enthusiastic supporter of Putin and all that entails. 

Oh, FFS. I asked how he could've done worse policy wise than Johnson, likesay during the corona crisis. And all I get is election slogans? I must say, I am deeply disappointed in your fabulous amount of imagination. Same with the EU negotiations, that have been going nowhere, are going nowhere, and are headed for no-deal with the UK goverment not triggering the extension. I know, for one boarder that is awesome, judging from your post, I assume, you're not part of the crazed Brexit crowd. So how could Corbyn (or whoever he would've sent there) done worse?

He wanted to abolish the military? Ok, fine, how would he have gone around it? Would he have sent a corona infected Milne on a tour through all the army baracks, to take out the military by himself. Would momentum kids ride UK tanks through trafalgar square, before dumping them into Thamse in celebration? Like I said, I lack imagination. So you were supposed to provide me with the details. He shared Johnson's vision on the EU? Fine, let's assume for a second that Johnson has a view on anything otehr than the he should be PM for reasons. He would still have a more remain party to pacify instead of that lil troll Cummings. The Putin support? I was lead to believe Johnson and Cummings are doing his bidding right now. I am not saying that Corbyn was a good choice, because he obviously wasn't. I just fail to see, how he could've done worse than Johnson and his motley crew.

You can have another go. But please, come up with something better than the slogans Tories tell their kids at the fire on a camping trip to scare them.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Guardian article about the UK’s trade deal wth the US, poorer quality meat, possibility of our standards lowering.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/boris-johnson-trade-deal-us-chlorinated-chicken

Similar from the Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/07/us-trade-deal-promised-tariffs-chlorinated-chicken-questioned/

[kiko]

16 hours ago, Hereward said:

. If you only want to make people ashamed of their country, you are asking for massive trouble.

I definitely will use that next time I talk with my English colleagues.

[A wilding]

6 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Now we have a problem, are you saying only those who have a historic grievance get a pass for ripping down a statue if its subject was a monster? 

I would say that the key point is whether the wrong concerned is still a live issue.

I don't think that anyone today seriously advocates making people fight to the death for sport. But from the Colston statue's defenders over the last few years I definitely picked up whiffs of "Slavery was not that bad really. And anyway it was mostly the blacks doing it to themselves. Today's blacks should keep quiet and be grateful for all we have done for them."

[BigFatCoward]

OECD says we will be worst hit of developed nations. Say what you like, but we are always at the top of the league table. 

[Which Tyler]

18 hours ago, Raja said:

*Another one bites the dust*

 

But I'm sure I was told that "violent" protesting never changed anything!

Also statues of Leopold II in Belgium; Liverpool University is renaming it's halls of residence Plymouth is renaming a public square, whilst statues and namings are now being planned to honour windrush

 

 

Elsewise, from Banksy
"What should we do with the empty plinth in the middle of Bristol?

Here’s an idea that caters for both those who miss the Colston statue and those who don’t.
We drag him out the water, put him back on the plinth, tie cable round his neck and commission some life size bronze statues of protestors in the act of pulling him down. Everyone happy. A famous day commemorated."

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNmTVZsDKS

[The Mance]

Love the Banksy idea.  While I get the how offensive these statues are, simply removing them seems too easy.  I feel like the communities that erected them should have to own the shame for a while.  Maintaining a statue of a statue being torn down acknowledges that, yes, this figure was once revered here, but no longer.  I like it.

[dog-days]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

OECD says we will be worst hit of developed nations. Say what you like, but we are always at the top of the league table. 

The Tories can take comfort in the fact that we are, at least in one sense, world-beating. 

[Blue Roses]

Don't know what the students of Oxford are thinking: statue of Rhodes fell in 226BC. Thought they were meant to be clever.

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, Hereward said:

However, we need to keep our eyes on the prize, and not further the damaging division we see in the US. A lot of people have pride in their country as their prime motivation. Pissing them off leads to that division. So, for instance, remove Colston and Rhodes, replace them with memorials to the black lives lost in the slave trade, but also memorialise the West African Squadron that lost thousands of lives preventing the slave trade, memorialise abolitionists. If you only want to make people ashamed of their country, you are asking for massive trouble.

This is a good point, although I think the ship is, if not sailing, then certainly unmooring from the pier with regard to Britain following the US into partisan hell.

One of the key problems in both countries is education. In the UK school children are pretty much taught exclusively about the tubthumping awesome moments of British history: the Battle of Hastings, the Spanish Armada, the Battle of Britain, D-Day etc. Even the Henry VIII stuff is often framed so kids come out of it thinking he's a good guy and a bit of a lad (although this varies wildly by teacher and how they get across the greater complexities of the Reformation). The negative impacts of British history are pretty much completely ignored. You get a little in GCSE History (which most children don't take) and a lot more at A-level and higher, but of course that's too late for the general audience.

If we taught more widely that Britain has done both incredibly good things we can be very proud of and committed atrocities to rank among the more heinous in history, we might have more people having a more balanced, less exceptionalist view of the country and its history.

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OECD says we will be worst hit of developed nations. Say what you like, but we are always at the top of the league table. 

Will be? I think we are now, apart from Belgium on a per head of population basis.

The government's handling of this crisis was a fiasco on almost every level.

[Luzifer's right hand]

3 hours ago, kiko said:

I definitely will use that next time I talk with my English colleagues.

It worked out pretty well for you Germans and us Austrians. 

Maybe other countries should give the shame approach a try? 

Edit:Unless it requires a total defeat at war to work of course.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

One of the key problems in both countries is education. In the UK school children are pretty much taught exclusively about the tubthumping awesome moments of British history: the Battle of Hastings, the Spanish Armada, the Battle of Britain, D-Day etc. Even the Henry VIII stuff is often framed so kids come out of it thinking he's a good guy and a bit of a lad (although this varies wildly by teacher and how they get across the greater complexities of the Reformation). The negative impacts of British history are pretty much completely ignored. 

Can you show me sources for this claim? It’s said quite often but I know I certainly wasn’t taught any of these things even when I was at school, and the Empire was certainly never held up as a good thing.

[Chaircat Meow]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Can you show me sources for this claim? It’s said quite often but I know I certainly wasn’t taught any of these things even when I was at school, and the Empire was certainly never held up as a good thing.

Yeah, I agree.

The description of the Battle of Hastings as 'tubthumping' is weird too. I don't think people identify with the Normans. 

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Yeah, I agree.

The description of the Battle of Hastings as 'tubthumping' is weird too. I don't think people identify with the Normans. 

Yeah Battle of Hastings was taught a lot.. it’s a story about how rubbish the brits were and got invaded. Not much to beat your chest about 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah Battle of Hastings was taught a lot.. it’s a story about how rubbish the brits were and got invaded. Not much to beat your chest about 

I remember it being we where not really Fully made up British until after the Normans had mixed with us.   

Basically the recipe for British   is   Ancheint Brit + Roman + Saxon + Dane + Norman.       After that we where made,  no more people needed to make us great.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Greetings from across the Atlantic! Yesterday was the day a statue of Chris Columbus was toppled, and another beheaded. Much ink was spilled, many tears were shed....or maybe it just met with a giant meh.

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Greetings from across the Atlantic! Yesterday was the day a statue of Chris Columbus was toppled, and another beheaded. Much ink was spilled, many tears were shed....or maybe it just met with a giant meh.

I'd be looking for scandinavians. 

[Werthead]

24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Can you show me sources for this claim? It’s said quite often but I know I certainly wasn’t taught any of these things even when I was at school, and the Empire was certainly never held up as a good thing.

The current UK history national curriculum.

The national curriculum allows for some latitude in the teaching of history but it is limited. American civil rights history is taught to a limited degree (so Rosa Parks) but not the American Civil War. For British history, Queen Victoria can be used as a study of a historical figure but not the wider impact of Empire at its height. Decolonisation is on the curriculum and the partition of India is a suggested study topic, but not until key stage 4 (so after options). The British occupation of Ireland can also be taught at the level after kids have chosen their subject but not before (and since most people don't take History as a subject, they are unaware of it).

Two of my best friends are both GCSE History teachers and they've gone into some detail about how they teach the subject in a way that emphasises the good and bad, but they note that quite a few other teachers go for the topics which seem to be the easiest to teach because of the sheer amount of material available, and that is very much Romans+1066+Henry VIII+Elizabeth I+Victoria (to a certain degree)+WWI+WWII.

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I remember it being we where not really Fully made up British until after the Normans had mixed with us.   

Basically the recipe for British   is   Ancheint Brit + Roman + Saxon + Dane + Norman.       After that we where made,  no more people needed to make us great.

 

Pretty much. There was also a lot of discussion in the texts about how amazing the Brits are that we haven't been invaded since 1066. To be fair, our my GCSE teacher was very good in going beyond the texts and recommending books on wider topics, but noted she couldn't get into some topics in as much detail as it wasn't germane to the exams (and GCSE History is very much focused on beating the exam, not gaining a broader basis in national history for the sake of it).