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Stannis th3 Mannis

Tywin's feelings on Tyrion and his guilt

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It always seemed a bit weird to me how Tywin acted toward Tyrion after Joffrey's death. Obviously we know Tywin had his issues with Tyrion but at the same time he had enough faith in him to put him in has Hand for a time. Marry him to Sansa in Hope's he would rule the North one day and then all of a sudden he ready to write him off to the wall or kill him. I get Cerci blaming Tyrion but always seemed off to me that Tywin actually believed Tyrion really poisoned Joff or are we to belive Tywin was using this as a way to rid himself of Tyrion for good? I just feel up until that point Tywin always had a use for Tyrion and seems out of character to me that he really wanted him gone for good

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28 minutes ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

It always seemed a bit weird to me how Tywin acted toward Tyrion after Joffrey's death. Obviously we know Tywin had his issues with Tyrion but at the same time he had enough faith in him to put him in has Hand for a time. Marry him to Sansa in Hope's he would rule the North one day and then all of a sudden he ready to write him off to the wall or kill him. I get Cerci blaming Tyrion but always seemed off to me that Tywin actually believed Tyrion really poisoned Joff or are we to belive Tywin was using this as a way to rid himself of Tyrion for good? I just feel up until that point Tywin always had a use for Tyrion and seems out of character to me that he really wanted him gone for good

Tyrion was a thorn in Tywin's side. He pushed back against his dad's authoritarian nature. He didn't bed Sansa when it was expected of him, he turned on Cersei and abducted Tommen. That, in Tywin's eyes, was treason, and he clearly didn't forget that. He also had nothing but loathing for Tyrion. I don't think Tywin feels guilt for sending Tyrion to his death. He hates Tyrion more than Cersei does, I think.

The best thing to illustrate this is Genna Lannister's talk with Jaime in A Feast for Crows. She describes a moment where she declared to Tywin that Tyrion was his true son, not Jaime. For that, Tywin gave Genna, the little sister who he defended from their own father, a six-month long silent treatment. That's a deep-seated insecurity in Tywin, that his most competent child is the one who killed his beloved wife, grew up misshapen, and becomes a laughingstock in the eyes of other nobles, even as they would rather marry their daughters beneath their station rather than marry them to the Imp. 

It doesn't surprise me at all that Tywin wanted Tyrion dead. There's Daddy Issues, but then Tywin had Son Issues, if that's an appropriate term to use. He hated Tyrion for his flaws, and hated him even more because he recognized himself in this monstrous form. 

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16 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Tyrion was a thorn in Tywin's side. He pushed back against his dad's authoritarian nature. He didn't bed Sansa when it was expected of him, he turned on Cersei and abducted Tommen. That, in Tywin's eyes, was treason, and he clearly didn't forget that. He also had nothing but loathing for Tyrion. I don't think Tywin feels guilt for sending Tyrion to his death. He hates Tyrion more than Cersei does, I think.

The best thing to illustrate this is Genna Lannister's talk with Jaime in A Feast for Crows. She describes a moment where she declared to Tywin that Tyrion was his true son, not Jaime. For that, Tywin gave Genna, the little sister who he defended from their own father, a six-month long silent treatment. That's a deep-seated insecurity in Tywin, that his most competent child is the one who killed his beloved wife, grew up misshapen, and becomes a laughingstock in the eyes of other nobles, even as they would rather marry their daughters beneath their station rather than marry them to the Imp. 

It doesn't surprise me at all that Tywin wanted Tyrion dead. There's Daddy Issues, but then Tywin had Son Issues, if that's an appropriate term to use. He hated Tyrion for his flaws, and hated him even more because he recognized himself in this monstrous form. 

I agree with everything you said to a point. The thing is if he hated him so much why send him to king landing in his place? Cerci would Never!! put Tyrion in any position of power but Tywin did and actually expected him to check Cerci. Up until Joff's death I felt like Tywin had a relationship with Tyrion where he held a huge grudge for his mothers death and also held a grudge for Tyrion being a dwarf but still thought of him as a Son and Lannister and that made him better than anyone who was not a Lannister in Tywins eyes. And also saw him as capable and thought he could trust him in matters of ruling. Just seems to me all that goes out the window after Cercis accusation and I feel Tywin was smart enought to see throught that and would not really buy that Tyrion actually did it

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Posted (edited)

He did make use of Tyrion sometimes, but overall he saw Tyrion as a whoring drunk among other things, and Tyrion didn't exactly try to dispel Tywin of that idea.

Tywin tried to make sure Tyrion died in the first battle against Robb in AGOT and when Tyrion accused him of it, he didn't deny it at all. The conversation (you want me dead) sounded like one they've had a lot as Tywin wasn't in the least surprised at the accusation nor Tyrion in the attempt. Tyrion also accused Tywin of wanting Tyrion dead when he assigned him to clean Casterly Rock's drains.

I think the turning point for Tywin was when Tyrion asked for Casterly Rock in the first chapter of ASOS. He was damned at that point, only waiting for a time for Tywin to find the right plan. Whenever Tywin's eyes are described as gold, he's thinking of murder. Note Tyrion described the word as sharp and poisoned.

ASOS Tyrion I

"You have important letters, yes." Tyrion rose on unsteady legs, closed his eyes for an instant as a wave of dizziness washed over him, and took a shaky step toward the door. Later, he would reflect that he should have taken a second, and then a third. Instead he turned. "What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

Adding,

Tywin also didn't think Tyrion was guilty of killing Joff. When Jaime questioned Tywin on this stating how he finds it very unbelievable, Tywin kept trying to distract Jaime and change the subject.

Edited by Lollygag

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46 minutes ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

I agree with everything you said to a point. The thing is if he hated him so much why send him to king landing in his place? Cerci would Never!! put Tyrion in any position of power but Tywin did and actually expected him to check Cerci. Up until Joff's death I felt like Tywin had a relationship with Tyrion where he held a huge grudge for his mothers death and also held a grudge for Tyrion being a dwarf but still thought of him as a Son and Lannister and that made him better than anyone who was not a Lannister in Tywins eyes. And also saw him as capable and thought he could trust him in matters of ruling. Just seems to me all that goes out the window after Cercis accusation and I feel Tywin was smart enought to see throught that and would not really buy that Tyrion actually did it

 

"That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left" 

Jaime's on his way to King's Landing by the time Tyrion's accused of regicide. 

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2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

"That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left" 

Jaime's on his way to King's Landing by the time Tyrion's accused of regicide. 

Another good point! I guess I just didn't think Tywin hated Tyrion enought to falsely convict him (assuming he dosent really think Tyrion did it) and also why dont they want to figure out who really killed Joff? Tywin dosent have alot if time but it's never brought up.. maybe we are to belive that Tywin does think Tyrion did it?

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

He did make use of Tyrion sometimes, but overall he saw Tyrion as a whoring drunk among other things, and Tyrion didn't exactly try to dispel Tywin of that idea.

Tywin tried to make sure Tyrion died in the first battle against Robb in AGOT and when Tyrion accused him of it, he didn't deny it at all. The conversation (you want me dead) sounded like one they've had a lot as Tywin wasn't in the least surprised at the accusation nor Tyrion in the attempt. Tyrion also accused Tywin of wanting Tyrion dead when he assigned him to clean Casterly Rock's drains.

I think the turning point for Tywin was when Tyrion asked for Casterly Rock in the first chapter of ASOS. He was damned at that point, only waiting for a time for Tywin to find the right plan. Whenever Tywin's eyes are described as gold, he's thinking of murder. Note Tyrion described the word as sharp and poisoned.

ASOS Tyrion I

"You have important letters, yes." Tyrion rose on unsteady legs, closed his eyes for an instant as a wave of dizziness washed over him, and took a shaky step toward the door. Later, he would reflect that he should have taken a second, and then a third. Instead he turned. "What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

Adding,

Tywin also didn't think Tyrion was guilty of killing Joff. When Jaime questioned Tywin on this stating how he finds it very unbelievable, Tywin kept trying to distract Jaime and change the subject.

Great response!!! I never noticed the part at the end about changing the subject with Jamie

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9 hours ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

It always seemed a bit weird to me how Tywin acted toward Tyrion after Joffrey's death. Obviously we know Tywin had his issues with Tyrion but at the same time he had enough faith in him to put him in has Hand for a time. Marry him to Sansa in Hope's he would rule the North one day and then all of a sudden he ready to write him off to the wall or kill him. I get Cerci blaming Tyrion but always seemed off to me that Tywin actually believed Tyrion really poisoned Joff or are we to belive Tywin was using this as a way to rid himself of Tyrion for good? I just feel up until that point Tywin always had a use for Tyrion and seems out of character to me that he really wanted him gone for good

Tywin raised his children to not make threats they had no intention of carrying out. Tywin believes that Tyrion could have killed Joffrey and with no other alternative he went with the evidence and the person who had the biggest motive. Kevan also believed Tyrion was guilty.

The only person who did not was Jaime, and even he still has to ask Tyrion for confirmation as he had his doubts. Tyrion has anger issues with his family, justifiably so, so the idea of him not being able to do what he threatened is not outlandish to them.

Obviously the reader knows he is innocent, but the people in the books don't.

 

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Tyrion was a thorn in Tywin's side.

Not really. Tyrion's elevation is down to his father's nepotism. Tywin does not seem to mind Tyrion being around and being in a position of power, otherwise why would he keep him around and give him those positions.

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

He pushed back against his dad's authoritarian nature.

He certainly pushed back, I think it a stretch to call it 'authoritarian' though given that is how most Lords behaved with their families (gangrapes aside).

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

He didn't bed Sansa when it was expected of him, he turned on Cersei and abducted Tommen. That, in Tywin's eyes, was treason, and he clearly didn't forget that.

Well yeah, he punished him for it by telling him he'd never inherit the Rock as a result.

He then gave him a position on the Small Council and married him to potentially the most powerful heiress in the realm.

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

He also had nothing but loathing for Tyrion.

He certainly did not like him. But clearly that is not all there was, otherwise why keep him around, why set him up as potential Lord Protector of the North? There are other Lannisters he could have behested those rewards to.

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

I don't think Tywin feels guilt for sending Tyrion to his death. He hates Tyrion more than Cersei does, I think.

Doubtful. Tywin was what was stopping Cersei ridding herself of Tywin in ACOK.

Cersei would never have made him Hand or Master of Coin, Cersei would never have set him with the Heiress of the North.

Tywin does not like his son, but it is not hate and certainly nowhere near the vitriol that Cersei has for him.

8 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that Tywin wanted Tyrion dead. There's Daddy Issues, but then Tywin had Son Issues, if that's an appropriate term to use. He hated Tyrion for his flaws, and hated him even more because he recognized himself in this monstrous form. 

One of the greatest misconceptions of this fandom is Tywin, Tyrion, Tytos and whores/paramours.

If Tyrion and Tytos simply slept with whores there would be no issue from Tywin. He sleeps with whores, his army had camp followers within it. Tywin does not have a problem with prostitution.

  • The Lannisters almost lost their Kingdom because Tytos was weak, spent his time with his paramours, even let them rule in his stead. He was fiddling while the Westerlands burned.
  • Tyrion marries the first homeless peasant who shows a liking to him. He threatens to harm the his royal nephews over his feelings for a whore

Tywin does not see himself in Tyrion at all. Tywin is not attached to the women he sleeps with the same way his father and son get to their paramours.

Tywin's (reprehensible) lesson to Tyrion was that anyone could have the likes of Tysha. His lesson was to demonstrate that to such women the only difference between Guards and Lannisters is that Lannisters can pay more. It is obviously a fucked up lesson, but that was the lesson and Tyrion failing to learn it is one of the many things that sets them apart.

I truly doubt that Tywin sees much of himself in Tyrion.

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

Tywin also didn't think Tyrion was guilty of killing Joff. When Jaime questioned Tywin on this stating how he finds it very unbelievable, Tywin kept trying to distract Jaime and change the subject.

Kevan believed it, the likelihood is Tywin believed it as well. Those two were pretty much in sync.

 

And I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that Tywin kept trying to distract Jaime on the subject?

“Unless it’s a new hand, let it wait.” Jaime took the chair across from him. “How did Joffrey die?”
“Poison. It was meant to appear as though he choked on a morsel of food, but I had his throat slit open and the maesters could find no obstruction.”
“Cersei claims that Tyrion did it.”
“Your brother served the king the poisoned wine, with a thousand people looking on.”
“That was rather foolish of him.”
“I have taken Tyrion’s squire into custody. His wife’s maids as well. We shall see if they have anything to tell us. Ser Addam’s gold cloaks are searching for the Stark girl, and Varys has offered a reward. The king’s justice will be done.”
The king’s justice. “You would execute your own son?”
“He stands accused of regicide and kinslaying. If he is innocent, he has nothing to fear. First we must needs consider the evidence for and against him.”

Evidence. In this city of liars, Jaime knew what sort of evidence would be found. “Renly died strangely as well, when Stannis needed him to.”
“Lord Renly was murdered by one of his own guards, some woman from Tarth.”
“That woman from Tarth is the reason I’m here. I tossed her into a cell to appease Ser Loras, but I’ll believe in Renly’s ghost before I believe she did him any harm. But Stannis—”
“It was poison that killed Joffrey, not sorcery.” Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime’s stump again. “You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand—”

That is it, their entire conversation. To say he kept on trying to change the subject is false. He engages in the conversation and is pretty clear that the Trial will decide his  fate.

 

4 hours ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

Another good point! I guess I just didn't think Tywin hated Tyrion enought to falsely convict him (assuming he dosent really think Tyrion did it) and also why dont they want to figure out who really killed Joff? Tywin dosent have alot if time but it's never brought up.. maybe we are to belive that Tywin does think Tyrion did it?

Tywin has not just sat his Tyrion on the Small Cocunil and rushed him into a marriage in order to allow him to die/take the black.

Sansa was an important piece of Twyin's power play. If he had no intention of keeping Tyrion in a powerful position he would have married another Lannister or Lannister loyalist to her. Tyrion was rewarded with that.

If Tywin wanted Tyrion dead, he'd be dead. The only reason he got a trial was because he was Tywin's son. He'd have had his throat slit as soon as Joffrey was dead in any other scenario.

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11 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Tyrion was a thorn in Tywin's side. He pushed back against his dad's authoritarian nature. He didn't bed Sansa when it was expected of him, he turned on Cersei and abducted Tommen.

This, basically. Tywin wants/needs obedience from his family. Tyrion can't be a good little cog in the family machine, he's too disobedient. He's too independent too - give him power and he rules like a king. He married off Myrcella to the Dornish without consulting anyone - not Cersei her mother, not Tywin the head of family, not the Small Council, not anyone. He banished Janos. He threw Pycelle in jail. He made highest level negotiations with Robb, he betrayed Robb's trust in a failed attempt to free Jaime (putting Jaime's life in danger). There's not a sign Tyrion thought of his father, or sent a raven at any time. Even under trial for regicide, Tyrion still can't buckle down and conform. Tywin gave up on him.

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24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This, basically. Tywin wants/needs obedience from his family. Tyrion can't be a good little cog in the family machine, he's too disobedient. He's too independent too - give him power and he rules like a king. He married off Myrcella to the Dornish without consulting anyone - not Cersei her mother, not Tywin the head of family, not the Small Council, not anyone. He banished Janos. He threw Pycelle in jail. He made highest level negotiations with Robb, he betrayed Robb's trust in a failed attempt to free Jaime (putting Jaime's life in danger). There's not a sign Tyrion thought of his father, or sent a raven at any time. 

To be fair it was in context of being Joffrey's Hand, and Joffrey truly showed he is incompetent so someone had to govern somehow, even though not all decisions made by Tyrion were good.

A strong king (strong and confident, not an insecure tyrant like Joffrey or Aerys II) wouldn't need a firm hand like Tywin to begin with. 

Tywin warned Tyrion from people like Pycelle and if I remember correctly advised him to be even more harsh with them if he saw it fit. 

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Tywin is also really up against it at the time Joffrey is killed. He has to keep the Tyrells on side. The Seven Kingdoms is pretty devastated by war and hunger. He has realised his daughter is a nut job and his grandson a huge liability (just witness Joffrey's behaviour at the wedding). I think he does believe Tyrion killed Joffrey (Tywin would certainly have killed anyone who treated him like that). He might have saved Tyrion if he was accused of killing someone else, because he is a Lannister, even if the least of them, but not when he is accused of killing a Lannister. This makes Tyrion a traitor to the family.

I think Tywin saw at some point that Tyrion has some talent and usefulness to the family. His surviving being kidnapped and turning up with a coalition of tribesmen and then making sapient comments about the war's progress must have impressed Tywin. I am not sure if he actually meant to kill Tyrion when he put him in place in his army or if he just saw it as 'you want to be equal, you can be' and was quite prepared to see him die. When he survived that he definitely saw he could make use of him. But there was no gratitude, as Tyrion bitterly resented after Blackwater.

I think Tyrion has a very deluded belief about Tywin accepting him. There is a point where he suddenly thinks that Tywin has given up Jaime as dead and has turned to Tyrion for that reason. This is Tyrion's neediness taking over his brain. Tywin would never give up on Jaime and never accept Tyrion as his heir.

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Perhaps his conduct seems contradictory because Tywin is conflicted.

On one hand Tyrion is Johanna's son, and Tywin loved her dearly. On the other hand he is Aerys's son, and a painful reminder of Johanna's infidelity and wrought with Aerys's character failings, a low cunning I believe Tywin termed it.

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Tyrion is accused of assassinating a king, his own grandson.  I guess Tywin thought he was guilty.  This grandson reached the pinnacle of power and therefore brought glory to the Lannisters.  The head of the family is understandably unhappy with the man who killed Joffrey.

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36 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Perhaps his conduct seems contradictory because Tywin is conflicted.

On one hand Tyrion is Johanna's son, and Tywin loved her dearly. On the other hand he is Aerys's son, and a painful reminder of Johanna's infidelity and wrought with Aerys's character failings, a low cunning I believe Tywin termed it.

If Tyrion isn’t Tywin’s son, that undermines everything that’s been built up between Tywin and Tyrion. Their whole relationship is undermined by the surprise reveal that he’s actually a Targaryen bastard. So Tyrion really wasn’t Tywin’s son, and all that emphasis on family is a big joke rather than a bit of scathing irony. If Tywin ever suspected that Tyrion wasn’t his, why would he ever put up with him? He would have sent Tyrion packing in a heartbeat. If anything, it’s Cersei and Jaime who should be Aerys’ bastards; they’re the ones who personify greatness and madness, the twin Targaryen traits. And do I even need to mention their incestuous obsession with each other? Tyrion being the secret Targ is such a cop out, but the twins being secretly Targaryen can only enhance Cersei and Jaime’s storylines. It means that Cersei is the Mad Queen, Jaime is a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer, and his struggles with identity become all the more dramatic. 

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2 hours ago, James Steller said:

If Tyrion isn’t Tywin’s son, that undermines everything that’s been built up between Tywin and Tyrion.

No it doesn't, it just means you never understood it.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Perhaps his conduct seems contradictory because Tywin is conflicted.

On one hand Tyrion is Johanna's son, and Tywin loved her dearly. On the other hand he is Aerys's son, and a painful reminder of Johanna's infidelity and wrought with Aerys's character failings, a low cunning I believe Tywin termed it.

I think if Tywin thought Joanna was unfaithful he would kill her and certainly Tyrion. I don't think he puts up with Tyrion out of love for Joanna but the opposite - because he a is Lannister (although come to think of it he has Lannister blood on both sides doesn't he?)

I am in favour of the Tyrion as chimera theory so arguably I believe something more weird the you do. Joanna forced to have sex with Aerys (if she resisted or reported it to Tywin, she'd trigger Tywin to act against the King and get himself killed) has sex with Tywin about the same time (a sensible measure for any wife who has committed adultery) conceives a child of each, one is absorbed leaving only the Targ blood line, the rest Tywin.

Each to their own theory. 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/3-human-chimeras-that-already-exist/

 

Edited by Castellan

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

No it doesn't, it just means you never understood it.

That’s debatable, as with any subjective speculation. I for one refuse to see the value in Tyrion being the Mad King’s son as opposed to Tywin’s son. We already have the “misunderstood parentage” plot with Ned Stark and Jon Snow. Making Tyrion yet another dragonseed is a retread and I think it clashes with the story that we’ve gotten so far. Maybe that’s what GRRM really is building towards, maybe not, but I really hope Tyrion doesn’t get revealed as a dragon riding half Targ.

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31 minutes ago, James Steller said:

, but I really hope Tyrion doesn’t get revealed as a dragon riding half Targ.

I think (certainly hope) that many things will never be explicitly 'revealed' by the end of the series. Some may, others may just be lurking there in the text evermore. Some people's standards of proof would spoil any piece of literature. e.g. unless there is a scene where an eyewitness jumps up and makes an incontrovertible speech, they'd say it can't be so.

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17 hours ago, Castellan said:

I think if Tywin thought Joanna was unfaithful he would kill her and certainly Tyrion.

That's not the relationship the text portrays.

We are given very little information about Johanna, and half of it is "rumours" concerning how much she was fucking Aerys and the other half is how much Tywin adored her. And there's this.

Quote

"Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, my lady mother used to call them. The man's weapon is a sword. And that tells us all you need to know, doesn't it?"

Johanna taught Cersei tears are a woman's weapons. She was a manipulator.

Quote

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

And it can be assumed where Cersei also picked this one up.

Quote

The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his father's coronation and enjoyed a brief reign as his paramour after he ascended the Iron Throne can safely be discounted. As Pycelle insists in his letters, Tywin Lannister would scarce have taken his cousin to wife if that had been true, "for he was ever a proud man and not one accustomed to feasting upon another man's leavings."

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

The woman fucked the king so much she got dismissed by the queen.

Quote

Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his "turning my ladies into his whores." (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last).

After the king she turns to Tywin.

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The bride and groom had known each other since they were children together at Casterly Rock. Though Tywin Lannister was not a man given to public display, it is said that his love for his lady wife was deep and long-abiding. "Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor," Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, "and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!"

Who adores her. And Tywin goes on to become Hand, the second most powerful man in the realm, thought by many to be the most powerful.

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Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin.

Tywin ruled the realm and Johanna ruled Tywin.

Johanna Lannister is the original master player of the game of thrones. She amasses power by bedding and emotionally manipulating the most powerful men in the realm. And that is what Shae and Tywin is about, as Shae is Johanna if Johanna had been born without the advantages of a high birth.

First GRRM tells us that Johanna used her tears to manipulate.

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"Unspeakable things." As the tears rolled slowly down that pretty face, no doubt every man in the hall wanted to take Shae in his arms and comfort her. 

Then he demonstrates to us that Tywin is susceptible to manipulation by women's tears.

Johanna coveted power and Aerys and Tywin coveted her, they're her source of power and play things. When Aerys insulted her it was a defiance - you've gotten old, I don't find you attractive, you hold no power over me anymore. Her reply was to prove otherwise that night, where Tyrion is conceived.

And after Tywin manages to muster up the balls to ask what happened, Johanna turns on the waterworks and plays the victim. The Tywin/Johanna relationship is the Tyrion/Shae relationship is to become the Tyrion/Sansa relationship, as Sansa learns to become the master manipulator and Tyrion roars back into contention for power.

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Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

The hard truth is the (these particular women in these cases) women love the position, not the man.

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How could I tell her that and still think she would love me? part of him said, and another part mocked, saying, fool of a dwarf, it is only the gold and jewels the whore loves.

The point will be the central question of Tyrion's arc. Tywin was unable to accept Johanna did not love the man but loved the power. Can Tyrion prove himself stronger than Tywin and accept Sansa does not love him?

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