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Stannis th3 Mannis

Tywin's feelings on Tyrion and his guilt

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

That's not the relationship the text portrays.

I wasn't portraying a relationship. I was portraying Tywin's values which are the same most lords and live on today in honour killings. He loves Joanna. He never believes she has been unfaithful. So we don't know what his emotions or actions would be if he had to confront that. I don't think he'd be capable of forgiveness. He would be very tempted to kill her, can't know if he would have.

I don't think there is any evidence about whether she was or wasn't unfaithful (other than I am rather taken with the chimera theory), there is only evidence that the charming Aerys is after her. I think your portrayal of Joanna is bizarre. 'masterful manipulator' etc. If Aerys succeeded it would be because  he is the king. The Queen probably sent her away for Joanne's own protection as much as to save face as a wife. I really can't imagine she wanted his attentions herself.

 

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1 hour ago, Castellan said:

I wasn't portraying a relationship. I was portraying Tywin's values which are the same most lords and live on today in honour killings. He loves Joanna. He never believes she has been unfaithful. So we don't know what his emotions or actions would be if he had to confront that. I don't think he'd be capable of forgiveness. He would be very tempted to kill her, can't know if he would have.

I don't think there is any evidence about whether she was or wasn't unfaithful (other than I am rather taken with the chimera theory), there is only evidence that the charming Aerys is after her. I think your portrayal of Joanna is bizarre. 'masterful manipulator' etc. If Aerys succeeded it would be because  he is the king. The Queen probably sent her away for Joanne's own protection as much as to save face as a wife. I really can't imagine she wanted his attentions herself.

The inability to perceive Joanna as a manipulator and the determination to make her out as some victim is what is truly bizarre. This is Cersei Lannister's mother, the Westerwoman archetype. GRRM literally tells you she uses tears as weapons. She gets flung from the most powerful man in the realm's bed and lands in the second most powerful man's bed. More than half the text devoted to her is about sex scandal.

The text gives it as plain as can be so no-one will be able to say they weren't told - "Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin."

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That's not the relationship the text portrays.

We are given very little information about Johanna, and half of it is "rumours" concerning how much she was fucking Aerys and the other half is how much Tywin adored her. And there's this.

Johanna taught Cersei tears are a woman's weapons. She was a manipulator.

And it can be assumed where Cersei also picked this one up.

The woman fucked the king so much she got dismissed by the queen.

After the king she turns to Tywin.

Who adores her. And Tywin goes on to become Hand, the second most powerful man in the realm, thought by many to be the most powerful.

Tywin ruled the realm and Johanna ruled Tywin.

Johanna Lannister is the original master player of the game of thrones. She amasses power by bedding and emotionally manipulating the most powerful men in the realm. And that is what Shae and Tywin is about, as Shae is Johanna if Johanna had been born without the advantages of a high birth.

First GRRM tells us that Johanna used her tears to manipulate.

Then he demonstrates to us that Tywin is susceptible to manipulation by women's tears.

Great post :) up till this point

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Johanna coveted power and Aerys and Tywin coveted her, they're her source of power and play things. When Aerys insulted her it was a defiance - you've gotten old, I don't find you attractive, you hold no power over me anymore. Her reply was to prove otherwise that night, where Tyrion is conceived.

And after Tywin manages to muster up the balls to ask what happened, Johanna turns on the waterworks and plays the victim. The Tywin/Johanna relationship is the Tyrion/Shae relationship is to become the Tyrion/Sansa relationship, as Sansa learns to become the master manipulator and Tyrion roars back into contention for power.

The hard truth is the (these particular women in these cases) women love the position, not the man.

The point will be the central question of Tyrion's arc. Tywin was unable to accept Johanna did not love the man but loved the power. Can Tyrion prove himself stronger than Tywin and accept Sansa does not love him?

No evidence of this, either way. Except that Johanna was without doubt the victim of one or both men.

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On 6/8/2020 at 4:28 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

To be fair it was in context of being Joffrey's Hand, and Joffrey truly showed he is incompetent so someone had to govern somehow, even though not all decisions made by Tyrion were good.

A strong king (strong and confident, not an insecure tyrant like Joffrey or Aerys II) wouldn't need a firm hand like Tywin to begin with. 

It's not the quality of Tyrion's decisions that is my issue. It's the fact that he is Tywin's hireling and doesn't seem aware of the fact. Tywin sees himself has Tyrion's boss, as he does with Cersei, the Queen Regent.

Tywin would expect Tyrion to consult him over major decisions (where practically possible, by raven or fast messenger). Major decisions like marrying off Tywin's princess grand-daughter, like sending the Gold Cloaks commander to the Wall, like humiliating and jailing the Grand Maester, like putting Jaime's life in danger with a bungled escape plan. But there's no sign that Tyrion thought he needed advice or approval from anyone. He rules like a king.

On 6/8/2020 at 4:28 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin warned Tyrion from people like Pycelle and if I remember correctly advised him to be even more harsh with them if he saw it fit. 

I don't remember; is there a quote for this? Anyway, Tyrion was dismissed from the Handship, and Tywin took up the role himself, restoring Pycelle to the Small Council, and also removing all Tyrion's military support.

Doesn't look like Tywin was totally satisfied with what Tyrion was doing.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't remember; is there a quote for this? Anyway, Tyrion was dismissed from the Handship, and Tywin took up the role himself, restoring Pycelle to the Small Council, and also removing all Tyrion's military support.

Doesn't look like Tywin was totally satisfied with what Tyrion was doing.

Yarp, here's the quote from Tyrion IX:

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …"

Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls."

"I see you have taken a few lessons from me."

Edited by The Sunland Lord

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2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Yarp, here's the quote from Tyrion IX:

Good, thanks. So certainly Tyrion has a green light from Tywin to get rid of Janos. Not Pycelle though. Tywin values the Small Council enough to employ them himself. And in 'councillors playing us false' - us means family. Us against them. No way did Twyin intend an internal squabble between his children to result in assault and false imprisonment of the Grand Maester, risking deep offence from the citadel. Maesters are powerful, and obeying the queen is no crime.

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next?

I'm not sure if he has any knowledge to specifically lay blame to any particular individual.  These three are named because they are the only ones left on the Small Council, so they also get the brunt of the blame.

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11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Great post :) up till this point

No evidence of this, either way. Except that Johanna was without doubt the victim of one or both men.

Nothing in the text depicts Joanna as a victim, that is a complete fabrication.

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21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Nothing in the text depicts Joanna as a victim, that is a complete fabrication.

:D Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Ok, there is no doubt in my mind that Johanna was the victim of one or both men  - based on the known cruelties of both men.  Also, I thought Johanna's reaction to the twins' early twincest games was a bit excessive - they were very young - so I suspect she was terrified of Tywin's rage if he found the twins showing Targ traits.

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