Can we predict anything about Jon and Dany in TWOW through their parallel arcs?

[King Adrian Storm]

This is just a crazy idea I came up with while I was reading the books, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. 

It's pretty clear Jon and Dany's arcs mirror each other a lot. I won't go through every little detail on how, but with each book their storylines have at least some sort of resemblance to each other. I'll mainly go over plot beats that are similar.

AGOT: Both are outcasts, and mistreated by someone in their family (Viseryes and Catelyn) Both of their stroylines kick off when they swear their vows (marraige to Khal Drogo and night's watch vows). And they both end up killing someone with fire in the end. (Othor and Mirri maaz duur)

ACOK: Both start out travelling with their people through intense weather looking for shelter. (Jon north of the wall, and Dany in Essos). They are both travelling farther and farther away from the seven kingdoms getting involved with magic, while the politics of the seven kingdoms are behind them. Plus both have lots of visions throughout the story (weirwood dreams and Hotu)

ASOS: Both get involved in a "forbidden love affair" (Daario and Ygritte). Both become leaders by the end of the story.

ADWD: Both of them fail at being political leaders, and their own people turn against them.

So if we use this logic of their parallel storylines what could we possibly predict in TWOW?

1. Both of them will experience a sort of rebirth. Jon literally being ressurected, and Dany burning the khals, which will probably be one of the fires she must light.

2. Both will be darker characters (Quaithe telling Dany to "be a dragon" and Jon coming back more wolfish)

3. Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

[Bowen 747]

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two characters which parallel each other the most.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark parallel each other.  It is also not a given that Daenerys T will burn the khals.  Nor is it a given that Jon Snow will get resurrected.  We don't know what will happen.  

The love affair with Daario, who is many levels beneath a Targaryen princess, is not forbidden.  It is just something which a Targaryen parent would never have approved of.  This is the equivalent of a high schooler dating a boy whom her parents did not approve of.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

37 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two characters which parallel each other the most.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark parallel each other.  It is also not a given that Daenerys T will burn the khals.  Nor is it a given that Jon Snow will get resurrected.  We don't know what will happen.  

The love affair with Daario, who is many levels beneath a Targaryen princess, is not forbidden.  It is just something which a Targaryen parent would never have approved of.  This is the equivalent of a high schooler dating a boy whom her parents did not approve of.  

How exactly do Robb and Jon Snow parallel each other? They're more like opposites.

-Robb is born the heir to Winterfell, Jon is the bastard

-Robb is the better rider, Jon is the better swordsman

-Jon betrays his vows for love, Robb betrays his vows for honour's sake

-They both personally execute men who are supposed to be their followers but who disobey them (Karstark and Slynt), but while Robb's cause is weakened, Jon's position is strengthened

-In AGOT, Jon flounders in the NW while Robb becomes wildly successful as a commander and then becomes the King in the North

-In ASOS, Robb flounders and then dies a brutal death while Jon comes into his own as a commander until he's chosen as the LC of the Nights' Watch

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

And they both end up killing someone with fire in the end. (Othor and Mirri maaz duur)

This is more of a foil, I think. The paralel is somewhat shallow.

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

mistreated by someone in their family (Viseryes and Catelyn) 

Catelyn didnt abuse him like Viserys abused her, and I think Viserys abuse causes her to continue the cycle with her handmaidens/slaves.

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Both of them fail at being political leaders, and their own people turn against them.

This is a big one, yeah. Both end up just doing what they want and throwing their political work in the trash. I am less worried about Jon attacking Ramsay than Dany being BFFs with her WMDs though. 

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Dany burning the khals,

Burning men of color, not a good look even if they are slavers, Dany isnt exactly interested in offering them much in the way of a replacement way of life, she's always wanted to use them to do her conquests for her and expected them to violate their moral boundaries for her. Jon doesnt push the wildlings that far, doesnt expect to be their king, and his interactions with them have been much more humanitarian.

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

Good guess. Still think their parallels are superficial and their foils are much more prevalent. 

[Castellan]

4 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

This is just a crazy idea I came up with while I was reading the books, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. 

It's pretty clear Jon and Dany's arcs mirror each other a lot. I won't go through every little detail on how, but with each book their storylines have at least some sort of resemblance to each other. I'll mainly go over plot beats that are similar.

AGOT: Both are outcasts, and mistreated by someone in their family (Viseryes and Catelyn) Both of their stroylines kick off when they swear their vows (marraige to Khal Drogo and night's watch vows). And they both end up killing someone with fire in the end. (Othor and Mirri maaz duur)

ACOK: Both start out travelling with their people through intense weather looking for shelter. (Jon north of the wall, and Dany in Essos). They are both travelling farther and farther away from the seven kingdoms getting involved with magic, while the politics of the seven kingdoms are behind them. Plus both have lots of visions throughout the story (weirwood dreams and Hotu) I'd also make this small note - they both encounter men bearing books who accompany them on their journey - Jorah and Tyrion. 

ASOS: Both get involved in a "forbidden love affair" (Daario and Ygritte). Both become leaders by the end of the story.

ADWD: Both of them fail at being political leaders, and their own people turn against them.

So if we use this logic of their parallel storylines what could we possibly predict in TWOW?

1. Both of them will experience a sort of rebirth. Jon literally being ressurected, and Dany burning the khals, which will probably be one of the fires she must light. I think Dany has already experienced such as thing when she survived the funeral pyre and hatched the eggs.

2. Both will be darker characters (Quaithe telling Dany to "be a dragon" and Jon coming back more wolfish)

3. Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

I'm afraid I can't really help you - I can see these parallels - and that they are both the paths of people becoming a leader - the only prediction for TWOW I see if the obvious that one leader is arising in Westeros and one in Essos and the question is will they become rivals or join together, or perhaps another way of looking at it is who is becoming the better leader?

[Hodor the Articulate]

I can't help but throw Tyrion in here too. Like Dany and Jon, he is also an outcast, leads a ragtag army, and becomes a darker character. Obviously, Dany and Jon's storylines run a lot closer but the parallels with Tyrion are still there. I'm not sure what it's leading to beyond all of them being harder people in TWOW though.

[Megorova]

In TWOW Dany will be reunited with Rhaego. Her son was kidnapped by Khal Pono, and this was the treason for blood. Pono was Drogo's blood rider, so Rhaego, as Drogo's son, is blood of Pono's blood, he was obligated to "save" the Stallion from his mother, whom Dothraki considered to be an evil maegi. So the fire for death could be burning of khals, for making Dany believe that her child was dead. Also it's likely that Dany will meet Quaithe again, in flesh, not in a vision. Quaithe's real name is Shiera Seastar, she was Mirri Maz Duur's master/teacher in Asshai. So when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Mirri with magic summoned Shiera to assist her. In her fevered dream Dany saw Shiera as smiling and whispering stars, as ghosts in faded raiment of kings - red and black clothes in traditional coloring of Targaryen court - Quaithe's black hooded cape and her red laquered mask, which later in that "dream" she took off and Dany saw her face. The ghosts that urged Dany "Faster, faster" was one person, with eyes colored like jade (green or blue), amethyst (purple with blue secondary hue), tourmaline (green or blue), opal (multicolored stone, mix of greens and blues) <- Shiera's eyes are mismatched blue and green. Swords of white fire was a glass candle in Shiera's hands. Same as here in TWOW - "He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire."

"When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

Same as Mirri Maz Duur, Euron was Quaithe's apprentice. His nickname is the Crow's Eye because thru his dark eye he is connected with blood magic to his ex-teacher Shiera, who is the Three-Eyed Crow. Yes, the Three-Eyed Crow is not Bloodraven, it's Shiera Seastar. Euron betrayed her, and now is using all that knowledge that he learned from her, to become the Night's King.

Quaithe/Shiera gave Dany directions where to go, and now Dany have ended that part of her path. To go forvard to Westeros, she had to go back to Dothraki, because they had her son, and prior going to Westeros Dany is supposed to find the second dragonrider, for Rhaegal. In Dany's IX's chapter in AGOT GRRM hid clues that Rhaego is going to become second dragonrider after Dany, and that his dragon is going to be Rhaegal, while Jon is going to become the last dragonrider, and Viserion will be his dragon.

So it's logical that prior Dany will go to Westeros, she will have to meet Quaithe, to get new directions.

If Jon's arc in TWOW will be parallel to Dany's, then he will be reunited with his family member, same as Dany will be eunited with her son. Dany thought that her son was dead, so Jon is going to be reunited with a Stark, who was supposedly dead - either uncle Benjen or Rickon, or Arya). And there will be more magic connected to Jon. If Dany will burn khals for their blood treason, then Jon is also, maybe, will burn those who tried to kill him. Probably Melisandre will demand those people to be sacrificed to R'hllor. If in the end of her arc Dany is going home to 7K, then in the end of his arc Jon is also going back home to Winterfell. Dany will take with her those slaves that will wish to leave with her (her children), thus Jon is going to take wildlings (his brothers) with him to Winterfell. Probably Meereen will be partially destroyed in a war with Yunkaii, similar thing will happen to Castle Black in a battle against Undead Army. Near the end of her arc Dany is going to receive guidance from Quaithe, who is bloodrelated to her and is a user of fire-magic. Thus Jon is going to receive guidance from Bran, who is bloodrelated to Jon and is a user of ice-magic. Quaithe will send Dany to find the last dragon (Jon), and Bran will send Jon to find dragons (to Dany).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think Dany and Jon parallel at various stages in the story, in that their stories are following the same path, but the trajectory is different, if that makes sense. For instance, Dany is going to embrace her identity judging by the vision quest she goes on in the Dothraki sea, while Jon is likely to be thrown into turmoil over his own identity. I think Dany's fever dream of "waking the dragon" is something that is about to happen with Jon, but for him it will be tied to his crypts dream that he keeps waking from before it sees its conclusion instead (there are a lot of similarities between "ghosts the hallway lined dressed in raiment of kings, holding swords of pale fire vs the statues of Stark kings and lords with their own swords). 

[Lady Topspin]

13 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

This is just a crazy idea I came up with while I was reading the books, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. 

It's pretty clear Jon and Dany's arcs mirror each other a lot. I won't go through every little detail on how, but with each book their storylines have at least some sort of resemblance to each other. I'll mainly go over plot beats that are similar.

AGOT: Both are outcasts, and mistreated by someone in their family (Viseryes and Catelyn) Both of their stroylines kick off when they swear their vows (marraige to Khal Drogo and night's watch vows). And they both end up killing someone with fire in the end. (Othor and Mirri maaz duur)

ACOK: Both start out travelling with their people through intense weather looking for shelter. (Jon north of the wall, and Dany in Essos). They are both travelling farther and farther away from the seven kingdoms getting involved with magic, while the politics of the seven kingdoms are behind them. Plus both have lots of visions throughout the story (weirwood dreams and Hotu)

ASOS: Both get involved in a "forbidden love affair" (Daario and Ygritte). Both become leaders by the end of the story.

ADWD: Both of them fail at being political leaders, and their own people turn against them.

So if we use this logic of their parallel storylines what could we possibly predict in TWOW?

1. Both of them will experience a sort of rebirth. Jon literally being ressurected, and Dany burning the khals, which will probably be one of the fires she must light.

2. Both will be darker characters (Quaithe telling Dany to "be a dragon" and Jon coming back more wolfish)

3. Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

You can draw similarities from one character to just about any other.  Me personally, I think they are opposites.  Dany is fire, the giver of life.  Jon is the darkness, the one person who will turn to the Others and betray humankind.  One is life, the other is death. 

[Amris]

On 6/11/2020 at 3:36 AM, Bowen 747 said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two characters which parallel each other the most.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark parallel each other. [snip]

Nope.

[Amris]

You are 100% right that Jon's and Dany's arcs mirror each other a lot, regardless of what some in this thread claim.

It's clearly no coincidence either but something that GRRM has carefully set up.

What I suspect we can infer from that for the near future is that both go on some kind of vision quest again.

Dany already has begun hers in her last ADWD chapter. It's likely that she will continue that in the next installment (the vision with the kneeling crones at the lake near the mother of mountains in her HotU vision.)

That's one reason why I think Jon will not be resurrected as easily and as soon as in the TV series. Rather he'll possibly have a vision quest of his own, mirroring Dany. Thus roaming the north in Ghost for a while maybe.

[SeanF]

On 6/11/2020 at 2:14 AM, King Adrian Storm said:

This is just a crazy idea I came up with while I was reading the books, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it. 

It's pretty clear Jon and Dany's arcs mirror each other a lot. I won't go through every little detail on how, but with each book their storylines have at least some sort of resemblance to each other. I'll mainly go over plot beats that are similar.

AGOT: Both are outcasts, and mistreated by someone in their family (Viseryes and Catelyn) Both of their stroylines kick off when they swear their vows (marraige to Khal Drogo and night's watch vows). And they both end up killing someone with fire in the end. (Othor and Mirri maaz duur)

ACOK: Both start out travelling with their people through intense weather looking for shelter. (Jon north of the wall, and Dany in Essos). They are both travelling farther and farther away from the seven kingdoms getting involved with magic, while the politics of the seven kingdoms are behind them. Plus both have lots of visions throughout the story (weirwood dreams and Hotu)

ASOS: Both get involved in a "forbidden love affair" (Daario and Ygritte). Both become leaders by the end of the story.

ADWD: Both of them fail at being political leaders, and their own people turn against them.

So if we use this logic of their parallel storylines what could we possibly predict in TWOW?

1. Both of them will experience a sort of rebirth. Jon literally being ressurected, and Dany burning the khals, which will probably be one of the fires she must light.

2. Both will be darker characters (Quaithe telling Dany to "be a dragon" and Jon coming back more wolfish)

3. Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

I think it more likely that she'll have to undergo some form of trial by ordeal at Vaes Dothrak. Her being fireproof is a show-only invention.   If and when she passes it, then some or all of the Dothraki will accept her as leader.  I think too, that she will have to bargain with the Dothraki;  eg offer them the treasure of Volantis, in return for abandoning slaving.

There is a good deal of Christ-like/messianic imagery surrounding both characters, and IMHO, they are the two characters who are most central to the story.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Amris said:

That's one reason why I think Jon will not be resurrected as easily and as soon as in the TV series. Rather he'll possibly have a vision quest of his own, mirroring Dany. 

I am 100% expecting this. I think the a vision quest, unlike the dreams, will be guided by Bran. I think we're going to see Bran reach Jon through Ghost exactly the way he did in ACoK. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:36 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two characters which parallel each other the most.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark parallel each other.  It is also not a given that Daenerys T will burn the khals.  Nor is it a given that Jon Snow will get resurrected.  We don't know what will happen.  

The love affair with Daario, who is many levels beneath a Targaryen princess, is not forbidden.  It is just something which a Targaryen parent would never have approved of.  This is the equivalent of a high schooler dating a boy whom her parents did not approve of.  

Great points with one minor difference of opinion.  I believe Jon Snowman will become an Icewight.  That should be his final destiny.  To walk the frozen forests as a sentient wight like Coldhands.  

[King Adrian Storm]

2 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Great points with one minor difference of opinion.  I believe Jon Snowman will become an Icewight.  That should be his final destiny.  To walk the frozen forests as a sentient wight like Coldhands.  

That's a good theory. People say Beric and Lady Stoneheart are foreshadowing for Jon, but Coldhands, could end up being the one to foreshadow Jon's fate. What is the reason for Coldhand's being a sentient wight? In my opinion what I want to happen is for Jon to be wighted while he's in the ice cells, and have him go insane, then the nights watch tries to burn his body, and Mel does something to force his spirit out of Ghost and back into Jon before it happens. That way he could be an ice and fire wight.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:32 AM, Lady Topspin said:

You can draw similarities from one character to just about any other.  Me personally, I think they are opposites.  Dany is fire, the giver of life.  Jon is the darkness, the one person who will turn to the Others and betray humankind.  One is life, the other is death. 

Life doesnt depend on fire. Life depends on all the elements working in balance. Too much fire = dead just like too much of anything.

[violentdelights]

On 6/10/2020 at 10:57 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Burning men of color, not a good look even if they are slavers,

I find the rest of your post quite bizarre but what's the point of this contention lol? I say this as a woman of colour, I don't see the supposed bad optics. The slavers are almost cartoonish in how ridiculously evil they are, it's always amusing seeing people defend their 'way of life’.

As to your point, @King Adrian Storm, I definitely see the parallels. On my next read of the series, I was thinking of just reading all of Dany's chapters and then afterwards, all Jon chapters. Bran and Daenerys are another two with a lot of parallels as noted above. I’m not really sure what it means for their respective arcs, I’ll come back once I do that re-read. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

48 minutes ago, violentdelights said:

I find the rest of your post quite bizarre but what's the point of this contention lol? I say this as a woman of colour, I don't see the supposed bad optics. The slavers are almost cartoonish in how ridiculously evil they are, it's always amusing seeing people defend their 'way of life’.

Well this would be the third time she’s killed another out-group who are non-white and of an alien culture to her. It would further cement Dany as a white savior with a white man’s burden trope. It would be similar to white missionaries in early Africa and the Americas trying to end slavery by “saving” barbaric cultures they found unlikable and alien, while having not a single clue what the fuck they’re doing, causing more harm than good, and acting in a self serving way. I see problems with the way Dany views the Dothraki , like they owe her something.

And I don’t care if they are mini Hitlers. Burning people alive is fanatical Mad Queen territory. There was a cop who was set on fire during the protests this past week. He was rolling around in agony trying to stop his skin from melting off and Twitter commenters cheered and laughed. So, as much as I hate these assholes, that’s where I draw the line. Arrest them, shame them, take away their status and wealth, send them to jail for life. But I’m not going to watch a person scream in agony and fucking cheer. Asking hey can we maybe not burn people alive, isn’t “defending a way of life.” That’s a hyperbolic statement that tells me you dont care to examine your own moral line on punishment.

[Barbrey Dustin]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:36 PM, Bowen 747 said:

Daenerys Targaryen and Bran Stark are the two characters which parallel each other the most.  Jon Snow and Robb Stark parallel each other.  It is also not a given that Daenerys T will burn the khals.  Nor is it a given that Jon Snow will get resurrected.  We don't know what will happen.  

 

Jon Snow parallel Mance Rayder.  I concur with everything else. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Well this would be the third time she’s killed another out-group who are non-white and of an alien culture to her. It would further cement Dany as a white savior with a white man’s burden trope. It would be similar to white missionaries in early Africa and the Americas trying to end slavery by “saving” barbaric cultures they found unlikable and alien, while having not a single clue what the fuck they’re doing, causing more harm than good, and acting in a self serving way. I see problems with the way Dany views the Dothraki , like they owe her something.

And I don’t care if they are mini Hitlers. Burning people alive is fanatical Mad Queen territory. There was a cop who was set on fire during the protests this past week. He was rolling around in agony trying to stop his skin from melting off and Twitter commenters cheered and laughed. So, as much as I hate these assholes, that’s where I draw the line. Arrest them, shame them, take away their status and wealth, send them to jail for life. But I’m not going to watch a person scream in agony and fucking cheer. Asking hey can we maybe not burn people alive, isn’t “defending a way of life.” That’s a hyperbolic statement that tells me you dont care to examine your own moral line on punishment.

What Daenerys Targaryen is doing is what Abraham Lincoln did for the southern slaves.  Both are heroes.  To quote Abner Marsh (Fevre Dream), better if slavery ends peacefully but it must end even if it means fire and blood.  The slave masters are the ones responsible for the need for violence.  They have a choice.  They can choose to accept the right moral path and end slavery.  No violence will be needed if they make this choice.  Instead they chose to resist progress and wished to continue slavery.  The violence going on in Slaver's Bay is their fault. 

Burning people alive is not that unusual of a punishment.  Stannis does it.  Stannis does it to his own loyal men.  And for what crime?  Because he brought these men to battle without adequate provisions so they had to eat the dead.  Now that is very cruel and harsh by any standards.  To burn slavers during a battle is not at all different from the air force dropping bombs on the enemies today.  That's right, the militaries of the world drop bombs on people who are less sinful than slavers.  The people who got burnt in Slaver's Bay are casualties of war.  There would have been no need for war if the slavers had cooperated.  People who were suspected of witchcraft were burned during the middle ages.  It wasn't right.  In the case of ASOIAF, the people who were burned in Essos were actually witches who committed heinous crimes, admitted to the crimes, and showed no remorse.  That was right execution for the time.

Race and color have nothing to do with what is going on in Essos.  The off-color people are the majority over there.  The slaves are not one color, nor one ethnic group.  What they have in common is being poor and powerless.  What their masters have been doing to them for thousands of years is a sin. 

You want to talk madness.  How about a little girl who keeps a book list of people to kill.  A kid so messed up, she joins a death cult to learn how to murder.  Arya is so dead inside, she felt nothing while watching Raf bleed to death.  A murderer so bereft of morality that she kills an old man for supposedly shady business practices. 

Can we predict anything about Jon and Dany in TWOW through their parallel arcs?

Only guess but not predict.  Daenerys and Bran have the most in common.