Can we predict anything about Jon and Dany in TWOW through their parallel arcs?

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:14 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

So if we use this logic of their parallel storylines what could we possibly predict in TWOW?

1. Both of them will experience a sort of rebirth. Jon literally being ressurected, and Dany burning the khals, which will probably be one of the fires she must light.

2. Both will be darker characters (Quaithe telling Dany to "be a dragon" and Jon coming back more wolfish)

3. Both will return to the seven kingdoms by the end of the book. Jon as king in the north, and Dany claiming to be queen of the seven kingdoms most likely on dragonstone.

They are also opposites.  Dany was reborn from the flames and came back with her dragons.  Jon will be reborn from ice.  So let us say some kind of ice magic revives Jon Snow.  This is where I see the similarities and the differences.

1. Daenerys, Drogo, Stallion, Sorceress, and 3 dragon eggs enter the fire.
2. Daenerys is reborn into Azor Ahai and the dragons are hatched.
3. The Khalasar accept her as their leader.  Mormont swears his allegiance.
4. Jon, Ghost, Mellie, and Shireen are frozen in ice by the White Walkers.
5. Jon is reborn into their champion and Shireen (the stone equivalent) is hatched into a great stone beast that breathes the darkness.  Shireen is the equivalent of the petrified dragon eggs but in the ice magic, she gives rise to a flying demon who breathes not fire but cold darkness.

You are correct about Jon becoming King In the North.  I do not think it will be the lords who will crown him but the Others and the Free Folk.  A treaty will come to pass between the Wildlings and the Others involving the return of blood sacrifice.  I believe Daenerys will be content to lead the refugees across the Narrow Sea to Essos. 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

What Daenerys Targaryen is doing is what Abraham Lincoln did for the southern slaves.  Both are heroes.  To quote Abner Marsh (Fevre Dream), better if slavery ends peacefully but it must end even if it means fire and blood.  The slave masters are the ones responsible for the need for violence.  They have a choice.  They can choose to accept the right moral path and end slavery.  No violence will be needed if they make this choice.  Instead they chose to resist progress and wished to continue slavery.  The violence going on in Slaver's Bay is their fault. 

Burning people alive is not that unusual of a punishment.  Stannis does it.  Stannis does it to his own loyal men.  And for what crime?  Because he brought these men to battle without adequate provisions so they had to eat the dead.  Now that is very cruel and harsh by any standards.  To burn slavers during a battle is not at all different from the air force dropping bombs on the enemies today.  That's right, the militaries of the world drop bombs on people who are less sinful than slavers.  The people who got burnt in Slaver's Bay are casualties of war.  There would have been no need for war if the slavers had cooperated.  People who were suspected of witchcraft were burned during the middle ages.  It wasn't right.  In the case of ASOIAF, the people who were burned in Essos were actually witches who committed heinous crimes, admitted to the crimes, and showed no remorse.  That was right execution for the time.

Race and color have nothing to do with what is going on in Essos.  The off-color people are the majority over there.  The slaves are not one color, nor one ethnic group.  What they have in common is being poor and powerless.  What their masters have been doing to them for thousands of years is a sin. 

You want to talk madness.  How about a little girl who keeps a book list of people to kill.  A kid so messed up, she joins a death cult to learn how to murder.  Arya is so dead inside, she felt nothing while watching Raf bleed to death.  A murderer so bereft of morality that she kills an old man for supposedly shady business practices. 

Can we predict anything about Jon and Dany in TWOW through their parallel arcs?

Only guess but not predict.  Daenerys and Bran have the most in common. 

"War without fire is like meat without mustard".  That's as true today as when Henry V spoke. 

As you say, we incinerate our enemies in war.  We razed numerous cities to the ground in WWII.   The accepted way of beating the Japanese in caves at Iwo Jima and Okinawa was to pump in millions of gallons of seawater laced with oil and petrol, and then to set it alight.  We rained fire on an entire Iraqi convoy in 1991, as it fled Kuwait city.  I actually met one of the pilots who took part, who told me his orders were basically, "Leave none alive." 

So, I won't condemn Daenerys for doing what our own armed forces do, in the modern world. The use of incendiaries in war is not considered a crime. 

Nor do I think that the in-universe alternatives, such as hanging, beheading, mass rape, destroying villages and crops, impalement, should be considered as better.

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

What Daenerys Targaryen is doing is what Abraham Lincoln did for the southern slaves.  Both are heroes.  

The narrative undercuts this straightforward heroic view. Dany has bought slaves, owned slaves, slapped slaves, burned slaves alive, used slaves to plow fields, offered zero opportunities for freed slaves--which begs the question are they really free at all. 

And what if she uses them to invade another continent to help her win a throne? Did Lincoln do that?

Seems like the characterization might be a bit more complicated.

Quote

To quote Abner Marsh (Fevre Dream), better if slavery ends peacefully but it must end even if it means fire and blood.

The books go farther than that though and dont just stop at burn them all. What is left, after you've burnt everyone and not bothered to stay and rebuild? Freedom to starve, freedom to be lynched, under Jim Crow. And then what do you do to solve that? Burn people again? Burn every white person?

Dany's simple-minded approach to these complex issues isn't going to work. We saw that with Astapor (soon to be Meereen). We also saw that with Cleon who just made the slaves the masters and the masters the slaves. Real change didn't happen just because "fire and blood."

Quote

The slave masters are the ones responsible for the need for violence.  They have a choice.  They can choose to accept the right moral path and end slavery.  No violence will be needed if they make this choice.  Instead they chose to resist progress and wished to continue slavery.  The violence going on in Slaver's Bay is their fault. 

Dany let them sell slaves in Yunkai and Astapor. That's what she wanted. And I'd hazard a guess that Dany will burn them anyway even if they surrender because that's what happened at Tumbleton. 

Quote

Burning people alive is not that unusual of a punishment.  Stannis does it.  Stannis does it to his own loyal men.  And for what crime?  Because he brought these men to battle without adequate provisions so they had to eat the dead.  Now that is very cruel and harsh by any standards.  To burn slavers during a battle is not at all different from the air force dropping bombs on the enemies today.  That's right, the militaries of the world drop bombs on people who are less sinful than slavers.  The people who got burnt in Slaver's Bay are casualties of war.  There would have been no need for war if the slavers had cooperated.  People who were suspected of witchcraft were burned during the middle ages.  It wasn't right.  In the case of ASOIAF, the people who were burned in Essos were actually witches who committed heinous crimes, admitted to the crimes, and showed no remorse.  That was right execution for the time.

So you have no moral line that you will ever draw because burning people is "normal?" And why would the author let you keep those views and not press you to challenge them or make you uncomfortable at any point? Especially since he has said that Dany choosing to destroy entire cities and cultures is something he wants readers to think about: "look at the dilemmas, look at the contradictions, look at the problems, and the unintended consequences" (x). You're just not interested in any of that? 

Quote

Race and color have nothing to do with what is going on in Essos.  The off-color people are the majority over there.  The slaves are not one color, nor one ethnic group.  What they have in common is being poor and powerless.  What their masters have been doing to them for thousands of years is a sin. 

Almost everyone in Essos is racialized through Dany's eyes, you're just not picking up on it.

The author has called Targaryens "a race apart" and has said he considered making them black so he must be working with some race coded concepts here. The Targaryens do enforce a colorline through their obsession with blood purity. The only person in the story who represents blood purity is positioned as the ONLY champion for otherized unfamiliar groups in Essos activates harmful white savior tropes. Could the Dothraki have saved themselves from conquering and enslaving people if it wasn't for Dany? If the answer is no, she is a white savior--and this concept was used to enforce genocide, colonization, and religious conversion in our world. I refuse to be enamoured with that.

 

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The narrative undercuts this straightforward heroic view. Dany has bought slaves, owned slaves, slapped slaves, burned slaves alive, used slaves to plow fields, offered zero opportunities for freed slaves--which begs the question are they really free at all. 

And what if she uses them to invade another continent to help her win a throne? Did Lincoln do that?

Seems like the characterization might be a bit more complicated.

The books go farther than that though and dont just stop at burn them all. What is left, after you've burnt everyone and not bothered to stay and rebuild? Freedom to starve, freedom to be lynched, under Jim Crow. And then what do you do to solve that? Burn people again? Burn every white person?

Dany's simple-minded approach to these complex issues isn't going to work. We saw that with Astapor (soon to be Meereen). We also saw that with Cleon who just made the slaves the masters and the masters the slaves. Real change didn't happen just because "fire and blood."

Dany let them sell slaves in Yunkai and Astapor. That's what she wanted. And I'd hazard a guess that Dany will burn them anyway even if they surrender because that's what happened at Tumbleton. 

So you have no moral line that you will ever draw because burning people is "normal?" And why would the author let you keep those views and not press you to challenge them or make you uncomfortable at any point? Especially since he has said that Dany choosing to destroy entire cities and cultures is something he wants readers to think about: "look at the dilemmas, look at the contradictions, look at the problems, and the unintended consequences" (x). You're just not interested in any of that? 

Almost everyone in Essos is racialized through Dany's eyes, you're just not picking up on it.

The author has called Targaryens "a race apart" and has said he considered making them black so he must be working with some race coded concepts here. The Targaryens do enforce a colorline through their obsession with blood purity. The only person in the story who represents blood purity is positioned as the ONLY champion for otherized unfamiliar groups in Essos activates harmful white savior tropes. Could the Dothraki have saved themselves from conquering and enslaving people if it wasn't for Dany? If the answer is no, she is a white savior--and this concept was used to enforce genocide, colonization, and religious conversion in our world. I refuse to be enamoured with that.

 

One can argue that some people are better off being slaves, than being free under Daenerys Targaryen. Aristotle made the point that some people were meant to be slaves, as  Xaro Xhoan Doxas does.   That seems to be your viewpoint.  You get quite hot under the collar at people who challenge slavery.   Abolitionism is something that you are plainly very strongly opposed to.  Or you believe George Martin is very strongly opposed to it.

Others have made the point.  If you think slavery is just the Ghiscari " peculiar institution" 'their way of life" well, go ahead and make the case for it.  Come out of the closet and live your truth.  Justify slavery.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Others have made the point.  If you think slavery is just the Ghiscari " peculiar institution" 'their way of life" well, go ahead and make the case for it.  

You keep trying to make this about ME, rather than dissecting a fictional character. I wonder if you can properly deal with the contradictions in Dany's story. You might want to brush up because these are only going to increase, not decrease.

I said I draw a moral line at cheering when people are being burned alive, no matter who they are. Are you going to accuse me of not cheering loudly enough, like Mussolini's fascists patrolling the crowds to make sure they're properly worshiping their cult leader? 

The author says he is interested in exploring the questions of Dany's choice to destroy cultures and cities. Are you in favor of turning this region into another Valyria? Just bomb bomb bomb them to death? As if that would "cure" slavery? I disagree that it would because punishment is not the same as justice or retribution, and it definitely isnt justice if Dany doesnt even bother to make this her life's work. So not only is it pointless, I see it as a danger specifically for this character, who will just continue to try to solve all problems with a stick. You dont see any problems with Dany's certitude or aspirations for being like Viserys? You don't see any issues with the fact that Dany didn't once think about abolitionism and the cause of slavery during her last chapter of ADWD? You dont have a problem with people being burned alive, ever, as long as Dany does it because she's always correct, amiright? But somehow this questioning of Dany must mean, defending slavery.

Quote

 

"With Dany I'm particularly looking at the... what effect great power has upon a person. She's the mother of dragons, and she controls what is in effect the only three nuclear weapons in the entire world that I've created. What does it do to you when you control the only three nuclear weapons in the world and you can destroy entire cities or cultures if you choose to? Should you choose to, should you not choose to? These are the issues that fascinate me. I don't necessarily claim to have answers to these. I think exploring the questions is far more interesting than just me giving an answer and saying to the reader, here's the answer, here's the truth. Now think about it for yourself, look at the dilemmas, look at the contradictions, look at the problems, and the unintended consequences. That's what fascinates me.“

 

What does it do to you.

No one wants to think about that? 

No one?

(In light of this quote I think Dany has more parallels to Cersei than to Jon).

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You keep trying to make this about ME, rather than dissecting a fictional character. I wonder if you can properly deal with the contradictions in Dany's story. You might want to brush up because these are only going to increase, not decrease.

I said I draw a moral line at cheering when people are being burned alive, no matter who they are. Are you going to accuse me of not cheering loudly enough, like Mussolini's fascists patrolling the crowds to make sure they're properly worshiping their cult leader? 

The author says he is interested in exploring the questions of Dany's choice to destroy cultures and cities. Are you in favor of turning this region into another Valyria? Just bomb bomb bomb them to death? As if that would "cure" slavery? I disagree that it would because punishment is not the same as justice or retribution, and it definitely isnt justice if Dany doesnt even bother to make this her life's work. So not only is it pointless, I see it as a danger specifically for this character, who will just continue to try to solve all problems with a stick. You dont see any problems with Dany's certitude or aspirations for being like Viserys? You don't see any issues with the fact that Dany didn't once think about abolitionism and the cause of slavery during her last chapter of ADWD? You dont have a problem with people being burned alive, ever, as long as Dany does it because she's always correct, amiright? But somehow this questioning of Dany must mean, defending slavery.

What does it do to you.

No one wants to think about that? 

No one?

(In light of this quote I think Dany has more parallels to Cersei than to Jon).

Martin doesn't say what you claim that he says.  You're projecting your own political views on to him.  Daenerys has not made a "choice to destroy cultures and cities."  Judging by the sample chapters of TWOW, the impending defeat of the Slaver coalition will come about through conventional military activity, and revolution, not through the use of dragonfire.

I generally judge people by what they do, not what they think during the course of a fever dream.

Martin is not naive enough to believe that slave-driving can end by way of peaceful persuasion.  In real life, the ending of slavery has required a good deal of military coercion.

 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 6/14/2020 at 11:35 AM, King Adrian Storm said:

That's a good theory. People say Beric and Lady Stoneheart are foreshadowing for Jon, but Coldhands, could end up being the one to foreshadow Jon's fate. What is the reason for Coldhand's being a sentient wight? In my opinion what I want to happen is for Jon to be wighted while he's in the ice cells, and have him go insane, then the nights watch tries to burn his body, and Mel does something to force his spirit out of Ghost and back into Jon before it happens. That way he could be an ice and fire wight.

Coldhands was a skin changer.  His body was kept alive by the Others but his mind remained safe inside another animal.  He was able to skin change successfully in the moments before his body was completely dead.  I am quite sure he could never go skin change back into human even if he had found a host body.  His body died and so did the ability.  

[Lluewhyn]

One important thing to note is that unlike the show, the slaves and masters in Essos are not color-coded by race, hence no "White Savior" crap. George Martin himself has addressed this concern as saying that it was an unfortunate consequence that the Essos scenes were shot in Morocco, and therefore almost all of the people that signed on to become Extras were typically people of color. He has explicitly said that the slavery in his books is based off of Roman/Greek slavery of conquered/captured peoples, and you can see in the text itself this with how Tyrion, Penny, and Jorah all become slaves.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

One important thing to note is that unlike the show, the slaves and masters in Essos are not color-coded by race, hence no "White Savior" crap. George Martin himself has addressed this concern as saying that it was an unfortunate consequence that the Essos scenes were shot in Morocco, and therefore almost all of the people that signed on to become Extras were typically people of color. He has explicitly said that the slavery in his books is based off of Roman/Greek slavery of conquered/captured peoples, and you can see in the text itself this with how Tyrion, Penny, and Jorah all become slaves.

Agreed.  It's like arguing that Spartacus was a "white saviour."

[Lollygag]

20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You keep trying to make this about ME, rather than dissecting a fictional character. I wonder if you can properly deal with the contradictions in Dany's story. You might want to brush up because these are only going to increase, not decrease.

I said I draw a moral line at cheering when people are being burned alive, no matter who they are. Are you going to accuse me of not cheering loudly enough, like Mussolini's fascists patrolling the crowds to make sure they're properly worshiping their cult leader? 

The author says he is interested in exploring the questions of Dany's choice to destroy cultures and cities. Are you in favor of turning this region into another Valyria? Just bomb bomb bomb them to death? As if that would "cure" slavery? I disagree that it would because punishment is not the same as justice or retribution, and it definitely isnt justice if Dany doesnt even bother to make this her life's work. So not only is it pointless, I see it as a danger specifically for this character, who will just continue to try to solve all problems with a stick. You dont see any problems with Dany's certitude or aspirations for being like Viserys? You don't see any issues with the fact that Dany didn't once think about abolitionism and the cause of slavery during her last chapter of ADWD? You dont have a problem with people being burned alive, ever, as long as Dany does it because she's always correct, amiright? But somehow this questioning of Dany must mean, defending slavery.

What does it do to you.

No one wants to think about that? 

No one?

(In light of this quote I think Dany has more parallels to Cersei than to Jon).

Red: this is not correct. Dany's whole slavery arc circles around the fact that Dany was sold by the person who was supposed to protect her (Viserys), it was gone along with by someone she trusted (Jorah) and she came to love the person who bought her (Drago). It's about her own experience of being a slave her whole life when as a child growing up she was abused and hyper-controlled by Viserys and then when she was literally sold to Drago. She didn't have a choice then. She does now.

AGOT Daenerys II

"Best we get Princess Daenerys wedded quickly before they hand half the wealth of Pentos away to sellswords and bravos," Ser Jorah Mormont jested. The exile had offered her brother his sword the night Dany had been sold to Khal Drogo; Viserys had accepted eagerly. Mormont had been their constant companion ever since.

AGOT Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah grunted. "Yes, Khaleesi, but … the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."

ASOS Daenerys II

"There speaks one who has been neither." Dany's nostrils flared. "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I . . . my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?"

ASOS Daenerys III

Arstan Whitebeard held his tongue as well, when Dany swept by him on the terrace. He followed her down the steps in silence, but she could hear his hardwood staff tap tapping on the red bricks as they went. She did not blame him for his fury. It was a wretched thing she did. The Mother of Dragons has sold her strongest child. Even the thought made her ill.

ASOS Daenerys VI

"No. I must hold court soon." Dany had grown very fond of Missandei. The little scribe with the big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She is brave as well. She had to be, to survive the life she's lived. One day she hoped to see this fabled isle of Naath. Missandei said the Peaceful People made music instead of war. They did not kill, not even animals; they ate only fruit and never flesh. The butterfly spirits sacred to their Lord of Harmony protected their isle against those who would do them harm. Many conquerors had sailed on Naath to blood their swords, only to sicken and die. The butterflies do not help them when the slave ships come raiding, though. "I am going to take you home one day, Missandei," Dany promised. If I had made the same promise to Jorah, would he still have sold me? "I swear it."
...
"I am no man's creature. I took the eunuch's gold, yes. I learned some ciphers and wrote some letters, but that was all—"

"All? You spied on me and sold me to my enemies!"

"For a time." He said it grudgingly. "I stopped."

ADWD Daenerys III

He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly. "Slavery is not the same as rain," she insisted. "I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned."

ADWD Daenerys X

"You sold me. You betrayed me."

...

"You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me."

 

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

Martin doesn't say what you claim that he says.  You're projecting your own political views on to him.  Daenerys has not made a "choice to destroy cultures and cities."  Judging by the sample chapters of TWOW, the impending defeat of the Slaver coalition will come about through conventional military activity, and revolution, not through the use of dragonfire.

I generally judge people by what they do, not what they think during the course of a fever dream.

Martin is not naive enough to believe that slave-driving can end by way of peaceful persuasion.  In real life, the ending of slavery has required a good deal of military coercion.

Quote

This struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, and it may be both moral and physical, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. In the light of these ideas, Negroes will be hunted at the North and held and flogged at the South so long as they submit to those devilish outrages and make no resistance, either moral or physical. Men may not get all they pay for in this world, but they must certainly pay for all they get. If we ever get free from the oppressions and wrongs heaped upon us, we must pay for their removal. We must do this by labor, by suffering, by sacrifice, and if needs be, by our lives and the lives of others.

------Frederick Douglass

 

45 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

One important thing to note is that unlike the show, the slaves and masters in Essos are not color-coded by race, hence no "White Savior" crap. George Martin himself has addressed this concern as saying that it was an unfortunate consequence that the Essos scenes were shot in Morocco, and therefore almost all of the people that signed on to become Extras were typically people of color. He has explicitly said that the slavery in his books is based off of Roman/Greek slavery of conquered/captured peoples, and you can see in the text itself this with how Tyrion, Penny, and Jorah all become slaves.

This was so, so messed up and it's almost inconceivable that no one at HBO noticed. And these are the guys who wanted to make a show called Confederate.

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Red: this is not correct. Dany's whole slavery arc circles around the fact that Dany was sold by the person who was supposed to protect her (Viserys), it was gone along with by someone she trusted (Jorah) and she came to love the person who bought her (Drago). It's about her own experience of being a slave her whole life when as a child growing up she was abused and hyper-controlled by Viserys and then when she was literally sold to Drago. She didn't have a choice then. She does now.

AGOT Daenerys II

"Best we get Princess Daenerys wedded quickly before they hand half the wealth of Pentos away to sellswords and bravos," Ser Jorah Mormont jested. The exile had offered her brother his sword the night Dany had been sold to Khal Drogo; Viserys had accepted eagerly. Mormont had been their constant companion ever since.

AGOT Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah grunted. "Yes, Khaleesi, but … the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."

ASOS Daenerys II

"There speaks one who has been neither." Dany's nostrils flared. "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I . . . my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?"

ASOS Daenerys III

Arstan Whitebeard held his tongue as well, when Dany swept by him on the terrace. He followed her down the steps in silence, but she could hear his hardwood staff tap tapping on the red bricks as they went. She did not blame him for his fury. It was a wretched thing she did. The Mother of Dragons has sold her strongest child. Even the thought made her ill.

ASOS Daenerys VI

"No. I must hold court soon." Dany had grown very fond of Missandei. The little scribe with the big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She is brave as well. She had to be, to survive the life she's lived. One day she hoped to see this fabled isle of Naath. Missandei said the Peaceful People made music instead of war. They did not kill, not even animals; they ate only fruit and never flesh. The butterfly spirits sacred to their Lord of Harmony protected their isle against those who would do them harm. Many conquerors had sailed on Naath to blood their swords, only to sicken and die. The butterflies do not help them when the slave ships come raiding, though. "I am going to take you home one day, Missandei," Dany promised. If I had made the same promise to Jorah, would he still have sold me? "I swear it."
...
"I am no man's creature. I took the eunuch's gold, yes. I learned some ciphers and wrote some letters, but that was all—"

"All? You spied on me and sold me to my enemies!"

"For a time." He said it grudgingly. "I stopped."

ADWD Daenerys III

He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly. "Slavery is not the same as rain," she insisted. "I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned."

ADWD Daenerys X

"You sold me. You betrayed me."

...

"You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me."

 

 

This was so, so messed up and it's almost inconceivable that no one at HBO noticed. And these are the guys who wanted to make a show called Confederate.

I shudder to think what "Confederate" would have been like.

Most likely there would be cruel vicious slave owners at one end of the spectrum, and they'd be in the wrong.  There would be the Underground Railroad at the other, perhaps led by a charismatic young woman, and they'd be portrayed as terrorists.  D & D would portray them as being morally equivalent.

The sensible centrists would be the good slave owners, whose slaves would acknowledge that they were better off being owned by them. Perhaps they would come to accept abolition, but only upon their own terms.

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/10/2020 at 8:14 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

ASOS: Both get involved in a "forbidden love affair" (Daario and Ygritte). Both become leaders by the end of the story.

The most amusing, I guess contrast as opposed to parallel, between Jon and Dany in ASOS is the opposite roles they play in a siege:

Jon protecting his "gate" from being breached by Mance's "turtle" while 

Dany using "Joso's Cock" to break down Mereen's gate.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And these are the guys who wanted to make a show called Confederate.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I shudder to think what "Confederate" would have been like.

Most likely there would be cruel vicious slave owners at one end of the spectrum, and they'd be in the wrong.  There would be the Underground Railroad at the other, perhaps led by a charismatic young woman, and they'd be portrayed as terrorists.  D & D would portray them as being morally equivalent.

The sensible centrists would be the good slave owners, whose slaves would acknowledge that they were better off being owned by them. Perhaps they would come to accept abolition, but only upon their own terms.

Lol i dont think itd have been that bad. I mean slaves acknowledging theyre better off is such a disgusting concept that I wouldnt even expect D&D to do it.

Itd probably be more like Amazon Prime's The Man in the High Castle a horrifying (and superb) story of what easily could have been where the nazis and fascists are as despicable as they were irl.

Its kinda a shame, I thought the concept was pretty cool. Of course I still did not trust D&D with anything so I wasnt heartbroken over its cancellation. (Although... They wrote "Flowers for Charlie"... How? Its genius? And it clearly says written by D&D... How? Lol. Thank god tho they got scrapped from making a Star Wars)

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol i dont think itd have been that bad. I mean slaves acknowledging theyre better off is such a disgusting concept that I wouldnt even expect D&D to do it.

Itd probably be more like Amazon Prime's The Man in the High Castle a horrifying (and superb) story of what easily could have been where the nazis and fascists are as despicable as they were irl.

Its kinda a shame, I thought the concept was pretty cool. Of course I still did not trust D&D with anything so I wasnt heartbroken over its cancellation. (Although... They wrote "Flowers for Charlie"... How? Its genius? And it clearly says written by D&D... How? Lol. Thank god tho they got scrapped from making a Star Wars)

I think you underestimate D & D. 

Their self-insert, Tyrion,  was able to explain to Missandei and Grey Worm what slavery was about, because he'd been a slave for a few weeks, and one of his best friends was a slave, too.  His brilliant idea was to reinstate slavery for seven years. 

And, at the end, we got Tyrion's "First they came for the slave traders ....." speech, plainly making the case that it was wrong to fight against slavers.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think you underestimate D & D. 

Lol maybe. I mean, they wrote flowers for Charlie! Some of the funniest writing Ive ever seen on tv (although its all Charlie Day)

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Their self-insert, Tyrion,  was able to explain to Missandei and Grey Worm what slavery was about, because he'd been a slave for a few weeks, and one of his best friends was a slave, too.  His brilliant idea was to reinstate slavery for seven years. 

And, at the end, we got Tyrion's "First they came for the slave traders ....." speech, plainly making the case that it was wrong to fight against slavers.

Yeesh. Smh

[Hodor the Articulate]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The most amusing, I guess contrast as opposed to parallel, between Jon and Dany in ASOS is the opposite roles they play in a siege:

Jon protecting his "gate" from being breached by Mance's "turtle" while 

Dany using "Joso's Cock" to break down Mereen's gate.

Dany pegging Jon, confirmed.

[Bowen 747]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:02 AM, Barbrey Dustin said:

What Daenerys Targaryen is doing is what Abraham Lincoln did for the southern slaves.  Both are heroes.  To quote Abner Marsh (Fevre Dream), better if slavery ends peacefully but it must end even if it means fire and blood.  The slave masters are the ones responsible for the need for violence.  They have a choice.  They can choose to accept the right moral path and end slavery.  No violence will be needed if they make this choice.  Instead they chose to resist progress and wished to continue slavery.  The violence going on in Slaver's Bay is their fault. 

Burning people alive is not that unusual of a punishment.  Stannis does it.  Stannis does it to his own loyal men.  And for what crime?  Because he brought these men to battle without adequate provisions so they had to eat the dead.  Now that is very cruel and harsh by any standards.  To burn slavers during a battle is not at all different from the air force dropping bombs on the enemies today.  That's right, the militaries of the world drop bombs on people who are less sinful than slavers.  The people who got burnt in Slaver's Bay are casualties of war.  There would have been no need for war if the slavers had cooperated.  People who were suspected of witchcraft were burned during the middle ages.  It wasn't right.  In the case of ASOIAF, the people who were burned in Essos were actually witches who committed heinous crimes, admitted to the crimes, and showed no remorse.  That was right execution for the time.

Race and color have nothing to do with what is going on in Essos.  The off-color people are the majority over there.  The slaves are not one color, nor one ethnic group.  What they have in common is being poor and powerless.  What their masters have been doing to them for thousands of years is a sin. 

You want to talk madness.  How about a little girl who keeps a book list of people to kill.  A kid so messed up, she joins a death cult to learn how to murder.  Arya is so dead inside, she felt nothing while watching Raf bleed to death.  A murderer so bereft of morality that she kills an old man for supposedly shady business practices. 

Can we predict anything about Jon and Dany in TWOW through their parallel arcs?

Only guess but not predict.  Daenerys and Bran have the most in common. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:26 AM, Lollygag said:

Red: this is not correct. Dany's whole slavery arc circles around the fact that Dany was sold by the person who was supposed to protect her (Viserys), it was gone along with by someone she trusted (Jorah) and she came to love the person who bought her (Drago). It's about her own experience of being a slave her whole life when as a child growing up she was abused and hyper-controlled by Viserys and then when she was literally sold to Drago. She didn't have a choice then. She does now.

AGOT Daenerys II

"Best we get Princess Daenerys wedded quickly before they hand half the wealth of Pentos away to sellswords and bravos," Ser Jorah Mormont jested. The exile had offered her brother his sword the night Dany had been sold to Khal Drogo; Viserys had accepted eagerly. Mormont had been their constant companion ever since.

AGOT Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah grunted. "Yes, Khaleesi, but … the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."

ASOS Daenerys II

"There speaks one who has been neither." Dany's nostrils flared. "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I . . . my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?"

ASOS Daenerys III

Arstan Whitebeard held his tongue as well, when Dany swept by him on the terrace. He followed her down the steps in silence, but she could hear his hardwood staff tap tapping on the red bricks as they went. She did not blame him for his fury. It was a wretched thing she did. The Mother of Dragons has sold her strongest child. Even the thought made her ill.

ASOS Daenerys VI

"No. I must hold court soon." Dany had grown very fond of Missandei. The little scribe with the big golden eyes was wise beyond her years. She is brave as well. She had to be, to survive the life she's lived. One day she hoped to see this fabled isle of Naath. Missandei said the Peaceful People made music instead of war. They did not kill, not even animals; they ate only fruit and never flesh. The butterfly spirits sacred to their Lord of Harmony protected their isle against those who would do them harm. Many conquerors had sailed on Naath to blood their swords, only to sicken and die. The butterflies do not help them when the slave ships come raiding, though. "I am going to take you home one day, Missandei," Dany promised. If I had made the same promise to Jorah, would he still have sold me? "I swear it."
...
"I am no man's creature. I took the eunuch's gold, yes. I learned some ciphers and wrote some letters, but that was all—"

"All? You spied on me and sold me to my enemies!"

"For a time." He said it grudgingly. "I stopped."

ADWD Daenerys III

He was too eloquent for her. Dany had no answer for him, only the raw feeling in her belly. "Slavery is not the same as rain," she insisted. "I have been rained on and I have been sold. It is not the same. No man wants to be owned."

ADWD Daenerys X

"You sold me. You betrayed me."

...

"You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me."

 

 

This was so, so messed up and it's almost inconceivable that no one at HBO noticed. And these are the guys who wanted to make a show called Confederate.

I meant that she doesnt think of the cause of abolitionism in her culminating chapter.  Activists dont constantly think of themselves and thats all she does in Daenerys X. She doesnt express a sense of concern for the plight of slaves. Its just about herself and her brother, whom she endorses by concluding that she must not forget who she is (again, herself). She adopts the Viserys' position: that she's too superior of a person to be rebuilding societies, that is for weaklings.

The Frederick Douglas quote doesnt quite fit Dany's situation because she's on a corruption arc. Quotes about absolute power are more appropriate for her.

Also, do you think Dany's experiences are exactly the same as chattle slavery? I kinda think what Viserys did was what any Westerosi noblewoman with an arranged marriage for X political goal would have experienced. Its awful and coercive, but is it the same?

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

There is a a lot of parallels in the story, Dany/Jon being one of them. You were pretty solid with your summaries on them. But Robb and Jon mirror each other equally as much and its supposed to show, Ned’s actions from Robert’s Rebellion. 

Bran/Arya mirror each other very much so. The only Stark child that’s really it’s own (in terms of similarity to the rest is Sansa. Sansa is the only one that’s truly deep integrated into the politics and elites of Westeros consistently throughout the series)

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I meant that she doesnt think of the cause of abolitionism in her culminating chapter.  Activists dont constantly think of themselves and thats all she does in Daenerys X. She doesnt express a sense of concern for the plight of slaves. Its just about herself and her brother, whom she endorses by concluding that she must not forget who she is (again, herself). She adopts the Viserys' position: that she's too superior of a person to be rebuilding societies, that is for weaklings.

The Frederick Douglas quote doesnt quite fit Dany's situation because she's on a corruption arc. Quotes about absolute power are more appropriate for her.

Also, do you think Dany's experiences are exactly the same as chattle slavery? I kinda think what Viserys did was what any Westerosi noblewoman with an arranged marriage for X political goal would have experienced. Its awful and coercive, but is it the same?

Activists usually choose causes which affect themselves or loved ones, either in the present or some past experience. Just turn on the news. It's also a foundation idea in Christianity that personal suffering is one of the main ways we learn empathy for others. It's a big part of that whole Jesus Christ thing. I'm more than a little shocked that I would need to explain this to someone.

I don't accept absolutist statements about how the books will go from anyone but GRRM. As for so-called corruption arcs? Take a look at just about every character. They're almost all to a one poised to get put into some very difficult situations and those will result in some very difficult and no doubt controversial choices.