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Is George R. R. Martin's World Too Big?


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There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a big world in Fantasy. However, by the end of ADWD he has 16 POV characters each with their own arcs and goals. There came a time in the middle of ADWD that made me go "Hold on George you are telling me you are going to wrap all of this up in two books?". By the end of the 5th book I was even more confused when the book ended with the cliffhanger it did. This left me with the thought Is George's ASOIAF world too big? I thought it was a stupid question, but as a reader it is already hard to follow sometimes. As a writer it must be so incredibly stressful. 

I think this question can be coupled with the whole issue George has later on in the books with not killing characters. Already in ADWD we saw three character POV entirely left out: Samwell, Sansa and Arianne (Which was probably temporary for AFOC, but I added it anyways). For pete's sake Sam plans to become a Maester and it took him all of AFOC to get to Oldtown and becoming a Maester takes years if I am reading the lore correctly. 

Let me know what your thoughts are. Is this ridiculous to say or am I being reasonable? Also, to note this is my first Epic/High Fantasy Series (Other than LOTR) I've read, I have no experience with Malazan, WOT or [Insert fav finished epic fantasy series here]. I know Malazan has lots of world building, but that is 10 books while ASOIAF is planning to be 7. And even Jordan planned for four books then six and then whoops it is 15 (including the prequel).

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As long as he gets on with The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring. As long as he does not kill off too many good-side characters, Jon Snow gets stabbed fatally in A Dance with Dragons, but there has been talk of Melisandre reviving him.

I would like to see Dany cured of any madness that she develops, and cured of the effects of Mirri Maz Duur's curse; and then she and Jon Snow marry and become king and queen of Westeros, and raise a family. Jon's mixture of Stark blood should cure inbreeding, and the movie showed that he can ride a dragon.

"he's not going to wrap every little thing'" :: that leaves plenty of opportunity for fan-fiction writers.

 

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Is his world too big?

No.

He's the best writer in building fantasy world, though I must admit I haven't read all fantasy books out there. The breadth and depth and all the details inside of his world are just amazing, overwhelming even, and the close similarity to our real world is something that endears to me.

It's just unfortunate that he hasn't completed the work quick enough. And if I'm not mistaken, he's not gonna write another series taking place in some other part of Planetos, so I guess his "world" is never gonna be complete/canon enough.

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On 6/25/2020 at 4:45 AM, Goro said:

The world itself is fine.

It's the plot that's too big if we're being honest and let's brace ourselves: he's not going to wrap every little thing up no matter how hard he tries.

There are 3000 pages of manuscript left to finish it. He can end it comfortably enough.

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I at first thought that "too big" here meant the size of the planet that the events happen on (often called Planetos). For astronomical / geophysical realism, Planetos should be about the same size as the real Earth.

As "too big" seems to mean the complexity of the scenario and the amount of characters, I suppose that too many parallel plots and subplots and subsubplots should not be brought in.

 

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On 6/24/2020 at 10:40 AM, GoldenGail3 said:

No.

Re-quoted for emphasis.

 

 

Honestly, I don't even think that the story itself is too big. The "problem" is that:

  • the story (particularly the middle of the story) is complicated and multilayered with main characters who are all main characters
  • GRRM just works at a slow pace and is slightly undisciplined.

The world of Planetos is actually a perfect size. In fact, since GRRM is gearing up for a world war and a repeat of the Great Empire of the Dawn, I'd prefer to have another POV character in Yi-Ti, Sothryos or Asshai who can speak to the Long Night legends there and the mysteries of the Five Forts and the Shadow Lands.

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On 7/3/2020 at 5:56 AM, TheLastWolf said:

There are 3000 pages of manuscript left to finish it. He can end it comfortably enough.

I agree, but for whatever reason, he probably won't. It's taken too long even with all that.

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Not at all.  The author is keenly aware that the plot and setting in Westeros are not going to appeal to everybody.   It is better to have variety so that more people will enjoy his books.  I would have stopped reading if the story only took place in Westeros.  Slaver's Bay, the Dothraki Sea, Volantis, and the Free Cities are my favorite settings.  

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On 6/11/2020 at 8:35 AM, SamwellTrotsky said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a big world in Fantasy. However, by the end of ADWD he has 16 POV characters each with their own arcs and goals. There came a time in the middle of ADWD that made me go "Hold on George you are telling me you are going to wrap all of this up in two books?". By the end of the 5th book I was even more confused when the book ended with the cliffhanger it did. This left me with the thought Is George's ASOIAF world too big? I thought it was a stupid question, but as a reader it is already hard to follow sometimes. As a writer it must be so incredibly stressful. 

I think this question can be coupled with the whole issue George has later on in the books with not killing characters. Already in ADWD we saw three character POV entirely left out: Samwell, Sansa and Arianne (Which was probably temporary for AFOC, but I added it anyways). For pete's sake Sam plans to become a Maester and it took him all of AFOC to get to Oldtown and becoming a Maester takes years if I am reading the lore correctly. 

Let me know what your thoughts are. Is this ridiculous to say or am I being reasonable? Also, to note this is my first Epic/High Fantasy Series (Other than LOTR) I've read, I have no experience with Malazan, WOT or [Insert fav finished epic fantasy series here]. I know Malazan has lots of world building, but that is 10 books while ASOIAF is planning to be 7. And even Jordan planned for four books then six and then whoops it is 15 (including the prequel).

I'd say that Martin's world is too big, but not necessarily in a way you are asking. You can also look at it in the way: is George Martin's world the right size for the story he wants to tell? And the answer is: no. In fact, if it were not for travel times and the fact that I already know that Westeros is size of Europe, I would probably think that it was the size of Holy Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire. I mean, seriously, look at some of Roman or Byzantine civil wars, political intrigues etc. If he wanted to tell a story of political intrigue he did not have to make Westeros any larger than Middle Byzantine Empire or Frankish Empire. If he wanted to tell a story of fall of an empire, again, it did not have to be any larger than Frankish Empire or Holy Roman Empire. And if it was placed on border between civilizations - much like Byzantine Empire was until its fall, or Holy Roman Empire after Hungary and Croatia joined - he will not have necessarily lost on the ability to present multiple cultures, with or without Daenerys as PoV (and, frankly, I do not think that Essos is so important in ASoIaF - Slaver's Bay societies are underdeveloped joke and chapters there are frankly a waste of paper).

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The size of the world is fine.

The issue is the mulitude of plotlines.  This has made the story unmanageable. Not only through the sheer amount of text that 16 plotlines necessitate (though that too) but especially by the fact that those plotlines are interwoven with each other and thus need to fit together. That is a truly Herculean task. I couldn't do it with even only 3 plotlines. That GRRM has managed to juggle 16 is a testament to his writing ability. Still he seems to have bitten off more then even he can chew.

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