How would you make an adaptation of AFFC and ADWD?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

I'm not interested in discussions about the abomination here, but rather, if you were adapting these books into miniseries/TV shows/animation/anime/whatever how would you do it, in a way that doesn't fell bloated but still has a decent length. I mean it is 2 book worth of material, that can't really be chronologically split (because that messes up the character arks) nor can they be spacially split (because that would be very WTF for a visual audience). So how would you do it?

[Morte]

First of all, we have to define what "bloated" is, because for example, for me, the best adaptation of "The Sea-Wolf" by London is the six hour miniseries by the German and French television, and we are talking about a book of ~200-300 pages (depending on print). Tarkovsky's "Stalker" spends 2:40 hours for essentially just chapter three of "Roadside Picnic", a novel that has around 250 pages total (again, depending on print). "Eyes Wide Shut" is 2:30 for Schnitzler's novel "Traumnovelle" of ~100 pages, and "2001: Odyssey in Space" spends 2:20 hours only on themes from Clark's short-stories. Non of the mentioned felt "bloated", nor did "Twin Peaks".

So, what do we hold in hand, when we look at AFfC and ADwD? Two large novels with a lot of plotlines, most of them slow and character- and insight-driven (Chamber plays, essentially), with a lot of travelogues in bad weather through war-torn countrysides, vast wilderness or exotic, albeit melancholic landscapes, very little action.

So we can't really make something like "Shining" or "The Name of the Rose" work that well, as we can't cut too much without making the story confusing, nor can we simply take one theme out of the story and concentrate on it while also still be telling the same story (as was done in "The Name of the Rose", which was reduced to the crime investigation and glimpses of the love story by Eco and Annaud).

So if we want to tell the whole story of AFfC and ADwD, I would go for a TV-show, two seasons, around 10-20 episodes each. I would try to do them in chronological order, this way we would also get more contrasts between the different locations and tempi, and get what little "action" we have more spread out.

And I would use wide-angles and very long takes, both for the courts and for the travelogues; and also plan-séquences.

Edit: I also would make Thoros or Melissandre resurrect Tarkovsky or Kubrick and try to get them as directors. I would strongly advise to not take Jodorowsky, as while his adaption would surely be a great and mind-bogging movie, it would confuse the audience. Maybe we could force Lynch or Fincher...  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

33 minutes ago, Morte said:

I would go for a TV-show, two seasons

That's a problem though. the seasons would not be able to stand on their own can't they? I really bloody hate Tweedle Dan and Tweedle Dave, and season 5 is shit, but the more I think about it AFFC and ADWD are adaptational nightmares. The two season approach is the best I think, but it does have one big problem as the ending of the first one would be incredibly unsatisfying, especially with the AFFC parts that are all about the slow burn and satisfying pay off.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

36 minutes ago, Morte said:

Edit: I also would make Thoros or Melissandre resurrect Tarkovsky or Kubrick and try to get them as directors. I would strongly advise to not take Jodorowsky, as while his adaption would surely be a great and mind-bogging movie, it would confuse the audience. Maybe we could force Lynch or Fincher...  

Kubrick would probably work best for the AFFC parts, with the slow burn anti war sentiment, matching almost perfectly with Paths of Glory. For the ADWD parts however I think someone with more then one cut per minute would be best

[Curled Finger]

Faithfully, hopefully.  A show entirely its own over enough seasons to really tell the tale.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's a problem though. the seasons would not be able to stand on their own can't they? I really bloody hate Tweedle Dan and Tweedle Dave, and season 5 is shit, but the more I think about it AFFC and ADWD are adaptational nightmares. The two season approach is the best I think, but it does have one big problem as the ending of the first one would be incredibly unsatisfying, especially with the AFFC parts that are all about the slow burn and satisfying pay off.

Here's something to consider. Two of the big resolutions of ADWD are not in the book. They're going to be the first chapters of the new book. Therefore, I'd devote AFFC and ADWD to less than two seasons. That means there would be a bit more leeway for an intense season finale to the first season, and then the finale to the second season includes the great battles in the sand and the snow.

[FictionIsntReal]

War and Peace was adapted as a 20 episode miniseries in 1972. Who says you need a limited number of episodes for your "season"? Gunsmoke used to have seasons of 39 episodes.

[Morte]

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's a problem though. the seasons would not be able to stand on their own can't they? I really bloody hate Tweedle Dan and Tweedle Dave, and season 5 is shit, but the more I think about it AFFC and ADWD are adaptational nightmares. The two season approach is the best I think, but it does have one big problem as the ending of the first one would be incredibly unsatisfying, especially with the AFFC parts that are all about the slow burn and satisfying pay off.

I think we could solve the problem with @FictionIsntReal's approach of one season with 40 episodes, with this we would even get proper cliffhangers for almost all places (maybe moving Barristan's speech from his first POV and Theon I from TWoW to the last episode, so we end with the heralding of the battles). Or maybe really move both battles to the last episode, like @Floki of the Ironborn suggested, ending the season with a Bang, but of course without the resolution of the battles. If we contrast the two battles by colours (cold and dimmed for the Battle on the Ice, warm and bright for the Battle of Meereen) and techniques, it could even become a cinematically worthwhile experience.

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Kubrick would probably work best for the AFFC parts, with the slow burn anti war sentiment, matching almost perfectly with Paths of Glory. For the ADWD parts however I think someone with more then one cut per minute would be best

He would also work best for Tyrion's travels, imho, as well as the audience scenes in Meereen. His battles would of course be very cinematoscopic and technical, not much focus on the "heroes", but more on the general misery. But of course Kubrick did make shorter takes, when needed for the scene. It's a pity he never got his Napoleon made... *sigh*

So Lynch, Fincher, Annaud... Visconti would work great, too.

Maybe we should go with Tarantino, he would cited whoever he needs for specific sequences and mix it with his "tarantinoness".

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, Morte said:

I think we could solve the problem with @FictionIsntReal's approach of one season with 40 episodes, with this we would even get proper cliffhangers for almost all places (maybe moving Barristan's speech from his first POV and Theon I from TWoW to the last episode, so we end with the heralding of the battles). Or maybe really move both battles to the last episode, like @Floki of the Ironborn suggested, ending the season with a Bang, but of course without the resolution of the battles. If we contrast the two battles by colours (cold and dimmed for the Battle on the Ice, warm and bright for the Battle of Meereen) and techniques, it could even become a cinematically worthwhile experience.

The more I think about it Floki's idea is best, with the big massive pay off. Still 40 episodes is bit much, but it does seem to be the lesser of two evils.

6 minutes ago, Morte said:

But of course Kubrick did make shorter takes, when needed for the scene. It's a pity he never got his Napoleon made... *sigh*

Well is terms of Napoleon we still have Bondarchuk's movies which are awesome, though if I had to choose I would say Waterloo is better.

8 minutes ago, Morte said:

Maybe we should go with Tarantino, he would cited whoever he needs for specific sequences and mix it with his "tarantinoness".

I don't think he should be in ASOIAF given his thing with feet and cock and ball torture

[Morte]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The more I think about it Floki's idea is best, with the big massive pay off. Still 40 episodes is bit much, but it does seem to be the lesser of two evils.

Yes. We would have the Big Bang at the end of the long season and don't have to desperately search for a way to get the first season not to end on a "Why?-WTF?-So-nothing-happened?"-moment for a lot of places... So ~40 episodes and the Big Bang it is.

14 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well is terms of Napoleon we still have Bondarchuk's movies which are awesome, though if I had to choose I would say Waterloo is better.

Waterloo was awesome in terms how you do a battle scene. In fact, I would force whoever directs the last episode in our project to watch the movie at least ten times, till they get it.

Maybe we also can consider Werner Herzog, and he has the advantage to still be alive.

21 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think he should be in ASOIAF given his thing with feet and cock and ball torture

Okay, you're right, no Tarantino.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Waterloo was awesome in terms how you do a battle scene. In fact, I would force whoever directs the last episode in our project to watch the movie at least ten times, till they get it.

Just imagine the Frey attack on the ice made like the Scott's Grey's charge. However nowadays it would be difficult to find 16000 Red Army ,,volunteers".

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Maybe we also can consider Werner Herzog, and he has the advantage to still be alive.

Mel can deal with Bondarchuk

[Morte]

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Just imagine the Frey attack on the ice made like the Scott's Grey's charge. However nowadays it would be difficult to find 16000 Red Army ,,volunteers".

I think Vova can sort that problem out.

4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mel can deal with Bondarchuk

We sure keep her busy.

It's a good thing I see actors as tools, else I would have to feel pity for those involved with our production under all the perfectionists...

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Morte said:

It's a good thing I see actors as tools, else I would have to feel pity for those involved with our production under all the perfectionists...

Shelly Duvall's 127th take intensifies

[Morte]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Shelly Duvall's 127th take intensifies

It took Kubrick a whole additional weekend till they got the handshake with Sky du Mont right in "Eyes wide shut" right. I wonder how many takes they would need for Quentyn's audience with Dany?

Maybe we should start searching for actors who don't kill themselves after spending 40 episodes with our choice directors...

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:22 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not interested in discussions about the abomination here, but rather, if you were adapting these books into miniseries/TV shows/animation/anime/whatever how would you do it, in a way that doesn't fell bloated but still has a decent length. I mean it is 2 book worth of material, that can't really be chronologically split (because that messes up the character arks) nor can they be spacially split (because that would be very WTF for a visual audience). So how would you do it?

The only way to do the series and make it affordable with the plethora of minor characters is to animate it. 

 

[rotting sea cow]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The only way to do the series and make it affordable with the plethora of minor characters is to animate it. 

 

Pretty much. It also gives a lot of freedom in terms of world building, flashbacks, places, etc.

I disagree with the statement that seasons  cannot be split between Feast&Dance. Yes, it can be done as long as you include the chapters of the recurrent characters that appear in Dance (Arya, Jaime, Cersei). This way, give more incentives to watch the next season.

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I disagree with the statement that seasons  cannot be split between Feast&Dance. Yes, it can be done as long as you include the chapters of the recurrent characters that appear in Dance (Arya, Jaime, Cersei). This way, give more incentives to watch the next season.

The geographic split  wouldn't be needed since it was only there to deal with his writing issues  

[Bullrout]

I would immediately write out Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Cersei, and Jaime out of the plot.  Just because I do not enjoy their chapters. 

[rotting sea cow]

18 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The geographic split  wouldn't be needed since it was only there to deal with his writing issues  

Yes, but in a TV setting you would also like to make the story comprehensible. If you have too many locations, viewers will have trouble in following the story.  Also, at the end of a season you would like to reach certain plot points and it becomes harder when you are switching between too many locations and plotlines.

For example in the AFFC sessions you have: Dorne, Iron Isles, King's Landing, the Riverlands, Braavos and Vale. As well as Sam's journey.

In ADWD you have mostly The North (The Wall and beyond, Winterfell), and Essos (Tyrion and Aegon) and Slaver's Bay.

Now some plotlines start to intersect in the second half of ADWD. Asha's story with Theon's and Stannis. Victarion with the Slaver Bay. So it indeed becomes complex.

 

 

 

[Loose Bolt]

I assume that easiest way to film those books would be a porn movie. By this one could simply ignore any sane plot and just let mr Golden Shower, kinky and horny queens/princesses and other porn stars do their jobs.