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Why did Robert not search for Lyanna after the sack?


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I don't think that Ned told him or others that he was looking for Lyanna. He rode to Storm's End to fight the last battle in the name of Robert and accepted the fealty of Tyrell and subjects. In the meanwhile and quietly, he was likely trying to find Lyanna's whereabouts. Probably Howland Reed had a key part on this. 

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8 hours ago, corbon said:

You can't love someone you barely know and don't noticeably bother with when you do have a rare opportunity to spend time together.

And you delude yourself into believing that Rhaegar 'loved Lyanna' - and/or she him - in your sense after they just spend some time during two very busy weeks at Harrenhal?

It is certainly possible that a person loves another simply because of the idea he or she has about her/him.

Nobody is saying Robert knew or understood Lyanna on a deeper level, but he knew her enough to love her. The idea that the guy didn't love that woman when her name was on his lips in the night of his own wedding when he was fucking the most gorgeous woman in all of Westeros is ludicrous.

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think that Ned told him or others that he was looking for Lyanna. He rode to Storm's End to fight the last battle in the name of Robert and accepted the fealty of Tyrell and subjects. In the meanwhile and quietly, he was likely trying to find Lyanna's whereabouts. Probably Howland Reed had a key part on this. 

If that was the case then we have to ask ourselves why Robert himself didn't have his own people look for Lyanna.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

If that was the case then we have to ask ourselves why Robert himself didn't have his own people look for Lyanna.

I think he had or should have, i doubt they found anything and Ned was not about telling him where she was after the dragonspawn incident, it's clear that Ned wanted to check things first.

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16 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think he had or should have, i doubt they found anything and Ned was not about telling him where she was after the dragonspawn incident, it's clear that Ned wanted to check things first.

But the suggestion @rotting sea cow made was that Ned didn't tell Robert that he was looking for Lya. Considering that Robert still loved Lyanna enough in his wedding night - and he married the most beautiful and most desirable woman in all of Westeros instead of plain Lyanna - to call Cersei by Lya's name - something you usually don't do when having sex, but if you do it, if something like that slips your mind, it is quite clear your mind is very much occupied with that other person - then it would be very odd that Robert would not focus all his own attention and efforts on finding Lyanna both during the war but, especially, after it was over.

In that sense the best explanation there is that he was not yet well enough to search for her himself but knew that Ned was looking for her and thus didn't send any search parties of his own. And as I said, in addition to him not being well, the fact that Ned and he were no longer friends after the Sack also would explain why Ned didn't take him along/Robert didn't insist to accompany him. Ned still served his king after after the Sack - as him going to Storm's End shows - but they were no longer friends.

And the fact Robert didn't bother going to Storm's End himself also might reflect on the severity of his injury - his two brothers had been stuck there for about a year, and while he didn't give a rat's ass about Stannis, one might think he would have ended the siege himself and reclaim his ancestral seat in person, not to mention to perhaps check on his old buddies and garrison there, rewarding them for their loyalty and stamina, feasting them, and checking on his baby brother Renly.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And you delude yourself into believing that Rhaegar 'loved Lyanna' - and/or she him - in your sense after they just spend some time during two very busy weeks at Harrenhal?

No.
I suspect, but don't know, that a seed was planted there when Rhaegar found her as the KotLT - which I think he likely did. 
She already had something of a teen crush on him it seems, from her reaction to Benjen's teasing. But thats not love, at least not yet.
I don't think Rhaegar 'fell in love with her' then - he was still successfully on the 3-heads path with his wife Elia.

If he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips, it seems to me that love came much after Harrenhal. Probably after her 'abduction' even. We'll see, probably.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is certainly possible that a person loves another simply because of the idea he or she has about her/him.

I think we have different definitions of love. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody is saying Robert knew or understood Lyanna on a deeper level, but he knew her enough to love her. The idea that the guy didn't love that woman when her name was on his lips in the night of his own wedding when he was fucking the most gorgeous woman in all of Westeros is ludicrous.

A drunk man thinking of the woman he'd desired, or lusted after for some time, but lost, while fucking a near stranger, isn't necessarily love. Its pretty sad that people think it is.

Mind you, I'm the deluded, ludicrous one, so what do I know?
 

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19 minutes ago, corbon said:

No.
I suspect, but don't know, that a seed was planted there when Rhaegar found her as the KotLT - which I think he likely did. 
She already had something of a teen crush on him it seems, from her reaction to Benjen's teasing. But thats not love, at least not yet.
I don't think Rhaegar 'fell in love with her' then - he was still successfully on the 3-heads path with his wife Elia.

Those are literary figures, not real people. We judge what they feel and how they on the basis of what we know (so far) - and there Lya and Rhaegar's only pre-abduction scenario (where love should have died, not blossomed considering what Rhaegar's dad did to Lya's family and later Rhaegar himself tried to do to Robert and Ned) is Harrenhal.

There is not much evidence to suggest Rhaegar had 'a deeper understanding of Lya' compared to Robert. A different understanding, perhaps, but not necessarily a deeper understanding. The crucial difference between the two men is that Lya may have returned Rhaegar's feelings for her, whereas it appears that she didn't return Robert's. But that tells us nothing about the quality of those feelings relatively to each other, no?

Rhaegar having weirdo breeding programs going with his wife also has nothing to do with his romantic/sex life - he can fall in love with/lust after Lya while also looking forward to produce dragon heads with his wife. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

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If he did die with Lyanna's name on his lips, it seems to me that love came much after Harrenhal. Probably after her 'abduction' even. We'll see, probably.

That strikes me as unlikely. Robert's thoughts being sort of with Lya near his own death - we don't know his last words/thoughts - apparently don't shape your view of his feelings for her.

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I think we have different definitions of love. 

Your definition of love as a concept is irrelevant if it only includes 'magical romantic love'. Not that it is confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other in that way.

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A drunk man thinking of the woman he'd desired, or lusted after for some time, but lost, while fucking a near stranger, isn't necessarily love. Its pretty sad that people think it is.

That is just one example - there are many other instances where Robert proves his devotion to Lyanna, but the Cersei thing is pretty significant. Others are the devotion he shows to Lya's memory at Winterfell, which completely goes against protocol (and this actually sort of reminiscent of Rhaegar's humiliation of Elia with Lya's coronation, with Robert preferring Lya to Cersei), also his thoughts on his deathbed show that Lya is still very much on his mind even then. Also his continued Targaryen hatred, which is caused by his loss of Lyanna. Even the Joffrey-Sansa match is triggered by Robert's desire to realize a union he desired with Lyanna which never was.

Robert might be wrong about Lya loving him, but you are clearly wrong in your belief that he didn't love her.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the suggestion @rotting sea cow made was that Ned didn't tell Robert that he was looking for Lya.

I think it's a obvious conclussion for Robert that Ned would look for his sister, whether Ned had told him or not.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Robert still loved Lyanna enough in his wedding night - and he married the most beautiful and most desirable woman in all of Westeros instead of plain Lyanna - to call Cersei by Lya's name - something you usually don't do when having sex,

Robert calling for Lyanna does not necessarily imply that he was in love with her, it may very well be that he desired her, and after she was  gone that desire would only get stronger.  Robert may have loved her, Ned who knew him well enough never dounted that and that is a far better evidence than the rest, but he could've also been wrong.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

then it would be very odd that Robert would not focus all his own attention and efforts on finding Lyanna both during the war but, especially, after it was over.

I think he did, that doesn't mean he found her, he must likely had his men looking for her without hope, i think that's why he went to Summerhall, to look for them. If Robert knew where Lyanna was, it's obvious that he would've gone personally but he simply couldn't  go looking for her through all the continent without any clue of her whereabouts while he wasn't even crowned yet.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that sense the best explanation there is that he was not yet well enough to search for her himself but knew that Ned was looking for her and thus didn't send any search parties of his own. And as I said, in addition to him not being well, the fact that Ned and he were no longer friends after the Sack also would explain why Ned didn't take him along/Robert didn't insist to accompany him. Ned still served his king after after the Sack - as him going to Storm's End shows - but they were no longer friends.

I don't really believe that they stopped being friends, they simply weren't in good tems at the time and they didn't want each other around, i doubt that Robert wasn't well enough, he made it to King's Landing pretty fast, wandering through Westeros without a clear destiny wasn't an option however.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And the fact Robert didn't bother going to Storm's End himself also might reflect on the severity of his injury - his two brothers had been stuck there for about a year, and while he didn't give a rat's ass about Stannis, one might think he would have ended the siege himself and reclaim his ancestral seat in person, not to mention to perhaps check on his old buddies and garrison there, rewarding them for their loyalty and stamina, feasting them, and checking on his baby brother Renly.

Ditto, he could see them at any given time, he was needed at King's Landing and he and Ned weren't talking, in that sense, marching  all the way to Storm's End with that tension could actually endanger if not their friendship.

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, frenin said:

A very absurd point whether he loved, she loved but the Harrenhall story is like Jaime's tidbits. Robert not being with Lyanna at all times doesn't mean he  didn't noticeably bother to spend time together.

Thats why I said noticeably. Its a limitation we have, but all we have to go on.
The fact is, we have no information or indication that Robert ever spent any significant time with Lyanna. He doesn't appear to know anything about her except that she was Ned's sister and was beautiful and although he professes great love later, he's only seen partying with his mates (both at the feast before the KotLT and the next night when Aerys declares the KotLT his enemy) when they do have a rare chance to get to know each other. 

We can't tell for sure, because too much is unknown, but its also not clear that Robert ever took any political action on her behalf. Maybe he wanted to and was restrained by Jon Arryn. Or maybe they were just too far behind the pace of events in the vale, or any number of other reasons.
But the rebellion started when Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads, not for Lyanna, and we are not aware of any action taken or ordered by Robert to try to find her or recover her before, during or after the rebellion.
Perhaps we'll learn more in the future..

18 hours ago, frenin said:

And till this day people keep reading "you don't know her as i did" with you don't know her at all.

Its more than that. When Robert thinks or talks of Lyanna he seems to have everything wrong, almost opposite about her. 

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The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."
"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

Robert thinks Lyanna would say what he would want her to say. Ned thinks she would be the opposite.

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 "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"
"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."
"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

Its pretty clear that he's thinking about what he would want, not what she would want, just as he did about the melee. She's not an individual to Robert, she's an empty space to fill with his own ideas.

He doesn't know her at all. He only knows his projection of her.

Robert also says something else interesting.

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"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

Its not clear that Robert truly wanted (beyond sex) Lyanna, the girl he clearly didn't know at all, or to join his House with Ned's and rule together.

 

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On 6/13/2020 at 10:29 PM, SFDanny said:

That is certainly a possible answer, but I lean to Robert not knowing where Lyanna is, either from Ned hiding that information from him, or because Ned learns where his sister is after he leaves King's Landing.

Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was for most of the war, so I'd say that information was not available in KL.

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Robert's feelings towards Lyanna more than border on obsession. Robert seems to have cornered the market on obsession when it comes to having his Lyanna back, and in the killing of Targaryens. It is hard for me to believe if he knew where she was that he would not have gone to get her in person.

Robert isn't the one who went to rescue Lyanna when she went missing, and he wasn't the one who acted out when Rhaegar named her QoLaB. In both of those cases it was Brandon. Robert didn't do anything until Jon Arryn called his banners to go to war on behalf of his wards. I think part of Robert's feelings for Lyanna are an extension of his feelings for Ned (which Stannis is jealous of due to being Robert's actual brother). And if the Starks (such as Brandon) can act on behalf of Lyanna, then that removes the need for Robert to do that himself. The war is often reduced to Robert trying to get his fiancee back, which is a romanticized version he himself might prefer, but in addition to trying to save his own head, he's also fighting on behalf of his foster-brother and the wrongs his family experienced at the hands of the Targaryens. Robert remembers that years later, and expects the shared feelings that he and Ned have over those wrongs to bind their political coalition together.

On 6/14/2020 at 2:18 PM, corbon said:

I'm not so sure that Robert was really that obsessed about Lyanna back then. None of his actions fit his claims. I suspect his obsession with Lyanna is more a product of his relationship with Cersei than anything else.
Sure, he wanted Lyanna and desired her, but I'm not certain he was that obsessed. The only clue anywhere (back then) that he really cared for her, is drunkenly whispering her name on his wedding night with Cersei, and thats easily explained by the drink and normal relationship history/desire.

I think his dissatisfaction with the present in which he's married with Cersei does cause him to dwell more on the past and what might have been. But recreating the marriage-that-never-was via his and Ned's offspring won't due anything about his own unhappy marriage. Robert lost his parents at an early age and became lord, so unlike with Brandon and Catelyn his own betrothal seems to have been freely chosen rather than arranged. He says he didn't want to marry at all when Lyanna died and Jon Arryn had to convince him of the necessity of marrying Cersei, so he probably didn't decide to marry Lyanna out of something like Rickard's alleged "southron ambitions" for political power. Instead he just personally wanted it, and presumably thinks he loved her however little he actually knew her.

On 6/14/2020 at 3:32 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think his reaction to her disappearance had mostly to do with himself and little to do with her. He couldn't abide the thought of anyone else having access to his possession and he really couldn't abide the thought of what her disappearance might say about her view of him.

I doubt Robert ever thought out that far or really considered the possibility (he may not actually have any experience with being rejected by women). The facts he knew were consistent with his vision of Rhaegar as kidnapping rapist. Aerys was a murderous tyrant who insisted his son was above any law and anybody who objected should just die, and while Rhaegar's initial action indicates he thought that of himself then his fighting at the Trident show he thought the same of his father, so Robert can easily tar them both with one brush.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That strikes me as unlikely. Robert's thoughts being sort of with Lya near his own death - we don't know his last words/thoughts - apparently don't shape your view of his feelings for her.

No, they don't. Because Robert's thoughts aren't for Lyanna-the-actual-person, they are for the anti-Cersei false view of Lyanna that he has in his head.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just one example - there are many other instances where Robert proves his devotion to Lyanna, but the Cersei thing is pretty significant. Others are the devotion he shows to Lya's memory at Winterfell, which completely goes against protocol (and this actually sort of reminiscent of Rhaegar's humiliation of Elia with Lya's coronation, with Robert preferring Lya to Cersei), also his thoughts on his deathbed show that Lya is still very much on his mind even then.

Yeah sure. These are all references to a clearly utterly false idea of Lyanna, made stronger each day as a shining false ideal to be compared to the hellhole of marriage to Cersei. Of course Robert is devoted to the 'should have been' 'not-Cersei'. 
But his own words clearly show that he's not actually talking about the real Lyanna, just his projected idea of her.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also his continued Targaryen hatred, which is caused by his loss of Lyanna.

Because they took something from him? or because he lost Lyanna herself? Or because he lost the chance to team up with Ned?

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even the Joffrey-Sansa match is triggered by Robert's desire to realize a union he desired with Lyanna which never was.

Robert thinks of it as a union with Ned, joining their houses and ruling together.
I'm not a fan of the underlying sexual Nedbert theory, but literally Robert's words are "we were meant to rule together...brothers bound by blood...join our houses". 

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert calling for Lyanna does not necessarily imply that he was in love with her, it may very well be that he desired her, and after she was  gone that desire would only get stronger. 

Especially after his marriage to Cersei was so awful.

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert may have loved her, Ned who knew him well enough never dounted that and that is a far better evidence than the rest, but he could've also been wrong.

Ned projects good things onto his friend. The actual evidence is that Robert didn't know Lyanna at all and loves a false idea of her.

Who knows, he might have loved the real her even more - I could see her qualities really appealing to a man like him, at least on a superficial level. Whether he'd have the necessary strength of character to grow up with her s another thing though, and that strikes me as unlikely given what we seem from him. Not impossible though. 

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think he did, that doesn't mean he found her, he must likely had his men looking for her without hope, i think that's why he went to Summerhall, to look for them.

Yes, its possible. We just don't have any evidence of it yet. At this stage, I'm inclined to look at Robert's character and known actions and statements and think he was more angry for her being taken away from him than concerned about her as a person. But that could change with more info. Its just a best guess based on what we have so far.

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Robert knew where Lyanna was, it's obvious that he would've gone personally but he simply couldn't  go looking for her through all the continent without any clue of her whereabouts while he wasn't even crowned yet.

Agreed. Or even after being crowned. Later, when Westeros was more stable, the King could afford to go gallivanting around the country (up north) for months at a time, but straight after the rebellion had finished I don't think he'd be able to get away from KL.
In fact, thinking about that, I wonder if that contributes a little to his utter irresponsibility later - kind of a reaction to being restricted early on when maybe he had other things he wanted to do?  

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't really believe that they stopped being friends, they simply weren't in good tems at the time and they didn't want each other around,

Agreed

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

i doubt that Robert wasn't well enough, he made it to King's Landing pretty fast, wandering through Westeros without a clear destiny wasn't an option however.

Also agreed. He was also plenty well enough to get thoroughly drunk and fuck Cersei.

 

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4 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, they don't. Because Robert's thoughts aren't for Lyanna-the-actual-person, they are for the anti-Cersei false view of Lyanna that he has in his head.

What would he have needed to have said with his last words for it to apply to the actual Lyanna rather than the imaginary one?

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Also agreed. He was also plenty well enough to get thoroughly drunk and fuck Cersei.

That took place later.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

No, they don't. Because Robert's thoughts aren't for Lyanna-the-actual-person, they are for the anti-Cersei false view of Lyanna that he has in his head.

You should forget the show. That shit comes from that pointless whining Robert scene from season 1, it is nowhere to be found in the books. Robert loved Lyanna as he saw her, not as an anti-Cersei. And he loved her as he saw her, not as something he wanted to own. There is no basis for any of this speculation in the text.

Not to mention that Cersei has nothing to do with what Robert felt for Lya - he would have slept around, of course, but why not? He is a lord and then the king and a man with a strong sex drive who has a right to do what he wants, just as people in the real world have. You can love a person and still fuck other people ... hell, you can even love multiple people at the same time.

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Yeah sure. These are all references to a clearly utterly false idea of Lyanna, made stronger each day as a shining false ideal to be compared to the hellhole of marriage to Cersei. Of course Robert is devoted to the 'should have been' 'not-Cersei'. 
But his own words clearly show that he's not actually talking about the real Lyanna, just his projected idea of her.

Of course he is talking about his idea of her - just as I talk about my idea/view of my girlfriend, and not her idea of herself, or her brother's, or anybody else's.

The difference between such ideas and reality is only relevent if they actually clash, i.e. if 'real Lya' clashed with Robert's image of her. But it never came to that, and there is not the slightest indication that 'real Lyanna' and Robert's Lya image would have ever come to blows if they had married - or rather: not more than Robert's image of Cersei and the real person, since both women most likely would have resented his extramarital affairs.

Robert never loved Cersei - also a sign that he truly loved Lya, since Cersei is a much more beautiful woman than Lya and yet she was never capable to make Robert love her. Not by just being there and his wife, and not by manipulation.

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Because they took something from him? or because he lost Lyanna herself? Or because he lost the chance to team up with Ned?

Because Rhaegar stole his bride, the woman he loved. This is all pretty simple. Lya wasn't some kind of price for Robert - or rather: not more than any other noblewoman marrying some noble guy in an arranged marriage was. And he cared more about her than many men care about their wives.

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Robert thinks of it as a union with Ned, joining their houses and ruling together.
I'm not a fan of the underlying sexual Nedbert theory, but literally Robert's words are "we were meant to rule together...brothers bound by blood...join our houses".

That is a reference to the offer of the Handship made earlier - the Lord of Storm's End and the second son of Rickard Stark were not meant to rule anything together, and that was what Robert and Ned were to each other when Robert decided to ask Lord Rickard for Lya's hand.

Lord Eddard Stark and King Robert Baratheon are meant to rule together - as would have Lord Eddard Stark and King Robert Baratheon if he had been married to Queen Lyanna Stark as Robert intended at the end of the war.

Robert also makes it clear he had no intention to marry and had to be forced to do it by Jon Arryn. That's not a man who didn't lose somebody he hadn't loved.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

The fact is, we have no information or indication that Robert ever spent any significant time with Lyanna. He doesn't appear to know anything about her except that she was Ned's sister and was beautiful and although he professes great love later, he's only seen partying with his mates (both at the feast before the KotLT and the next night when Aerys declares the KotLT his enemy) when they do have a rare chance to get to know each other. 

We have no info anyway, two instances in a ten day tourney are two instances in a ten day tourney, unless you're arguing that Robert should be with her all time, them being apart in those moments it's not telling much. We have no instance of Robert and Ned interacting either and we can agree that at least they said good morning to each other. It's not like we're told about every detail of their days there...

The last example it's also very sketchy, since it only tells us that Robert and Lonmouth swore to unmask the knight, were they alone when they did it?? We have no more info.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

We can't tell for sure, because too much is unknown, but its also not clear that Robert ever took any political action on her behalf. Maybe he wanted to and was restrained by Jon Arryn. Or maybe they were just too far behind the pace of events in the vale, or any number of other reasons.

Robert claims that he swore to kill Rhaegar for that, we don't know more.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

But the rebellion started when Aerys demanded Ned and Robert's heads, not for Lyanna, and we are not aware of any action taken or ordered by Robert to try to find her or recover her before, during or after the rebellion.
Perhaps we'll learn more in the future..

We are not aware of any action by Ned until the very end of the war... Maybe he didn't care either.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Robert thinks Lyanna would say what he would want her to say. Ned thinks she would be the opposite.

Not really, he thinks that Lyanna would not have shamed him by forbidding him to partake in the Tourney, not that she would not have spoken her mind, it's a moot point because the odds are against Robert on that.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its pretty clear that he's thinking about what he would want, not what she would want, just as he did about the melee. She's not an individual to Robert, she's an empty space to fill with his own ideas.

He doesn't know her at all. He only knows his projection of her.

A weird take isn't it?? Robert doesn't like that place and for the way he speaks of  it, it's unlikely that he would want Ned buried there either, Robert doesn't know what she would want, because Robert doesn't know that Lyanna requested being buried there. But him not liking that place and wishing for her and more shiny plac is not really an evidence that he is projecting things etc etc, just that he doesn't like that place.

He does know her, he simply doesn't know her deeply.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its not clear that Robert truly wanted (beyond sex) Lyanna, the girl he clearly didn't know at all, or to join his House with Ned's and rule together.

I don't know how it's not clear, that's the very first thing we are told.

 

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

He doesn't want to marry after the news of her death, as appealing as the idea of him and Ned taking their bromance to whole different level:wub:, or just that he wanted to bang her really bad, that's not really the reaction of someone who just was interested in a very superficial level.

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ned projects good things onto his friend. The actual evidence is that Robert didn't know Lyanna at all and loves a false idea of her.

Doubtful, Ned is very judgmental with Robert and he is even more judgy with Robert's womanizing attitudes. That's not really the actual evidence but ok.

 

 

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

Who knows, he might have loved the real her even more - I could see her qualities really appealing to a man like him, at least on a superficial level. Whether he'd have the necessary strength of character to grow up with her s another thing though, and that strikes me as unlikely given what we seem from him. Not impossible though. 

Who knows, he seemed pretty taken for the real her, and the Robert it's shown in Agot it's not the Robert she was going to marry. 

 

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ned projects good things onto his friend. The actual evidence is that Robert didn't know Lyanna at all and loves a false idea of her.

It's a point made in the books several times that Robert changed a lot after donning the crown and not for the better, Robert's actions and statements regardless match with him being concerned about her as a person.  

 

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

Agreed. Or even after being crowned. Later, when Westeros was more stable, the King could afford to go gallivanting around the country (up north) for months at a time, but straight after the rebellion had finished I don't think he'd be able to get away from KL.
In fact, thinking about that, I wonder if that contributes a little to his utter irresponsibility later - kind of a reaction to being restricted early on when maybe he had other things he wanted to do?  

I think he could, but i doubt it would be wise, it would be stupid wandering through a whole continent without any idea of where to go regardless. It's telling tho that both Jon Arryn and Robert stayed in KL for the rest of the war, Ned was the one fighting the last battles in the south and Stannis was the one going after the Targlings, which indicates that htey were not moving unless it was very important, they needed to pacify King's Landing and start reconciling them with a new king and new dynasty after the usurpation, and Tywin's clusterfuck, they needed to start reaching the crownlands to submit and also extended the carrot and the stick to the lords of the narrow sea.

 

 

57 minutes ago, corbon said:

Also agreed. He was also plenty well enough to get thoroughly drunk and fuck Cersei.

That happened at least a year later.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What would he have needed to have said with his last words for it to apply to the actual Lyanna rather than the imaginary one?

To have previously had some accurate knowledge of what Lyanna was like?
If he got everything dead wrong every time he talked about her, why would the last time be any different?

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That took place later.

True enough. Even Barristan who was much more badly hurt than Robert, had had time to recover and be Cersei's escort.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

We have no info anyway, two instances in a ten day tourney are two instances in a ten day tourney, unless you're arguing that Robert should be with her all time, them being apart in those moments it's not telling much. We have no instance of Robert and Ned interacting either and we can agree that at least they said good morning to each other. It's not like we're told about every detail of their days there...

The last example it's also very sketchy, since it only tells us that Robert and Lonmouth swore to unmask the knight, were they alone when they did it?? We have no more info.

Indeed. 
I just prefer to go with what we have, what GRRM has chosen to show us, and not things he hasn't shown us.
What he's shown us is old Robert waxing lyrical about his love for a girl he appears to completely misunderstand, and young Robert too busy partying to interact with her when they have a rare opportunity to spend time together.
What he's shown is a drunken lecherous irresponsible old Robert who loves to fight/drink/fuck and ignores his responsibilities, and a young Robert who is the same character, just not gone to seed yet.

This is not the same necessarily as what he's told us. He's told us (through Ned) that Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart. And that Rhaegar was a rapist.
Then he's shown us different things.

When he shows more, then my opinion will adapt, if necessary.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

We are not aware of any action by Ned until the very end of the war... Maybe he didn't care either.

If we didn't see inside his head, I'd wonder the same. But his actions later showed more. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Not really, he thinks that Lyanna would not have shamed him by forbidding him to partake in the Tourney, not that she would not have spoken her mind, it's a moot point because the odds are against Robert on that.

A weird take isn't it?? Robert doesn't like that place and for the way he speaks of  it, it's unlikely that he would want Ned buried there either, Robert doesn't know what she would want, because Robert doesn't know that Lyanna requested being buried there. But him not liking that place and wishing for her and more shiny plac is not really an evidence that he is projecting things etc etc, just that he doesn't like that place.

The point is, every time Robert talks about her, he's wrong. And every time he talks of what she would have wanted or done he translates his desires to be hers. There is no 'her' there in his head, only a him-shaped ideal.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He does know her,

How do you know? Because his bestie Ned thinks he loved her?
I'd put more stock in that if I saw more actions, as opposed to words, from Robert that showed it.

Robert certainly loves the idea of her. I think Ned's love for his friend makes him a gullible fool in this area. Lyanna was the wiser of the two, we saw that in their remembered conversation.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't know how it's not clear, that's the very first thing we are told.

 

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

Which only makes me doubt it more. 
Like Rhaegar's introduction as a rapist who did terrible things to Lyanna which Robert vowed to (and did) kill him for. Robert's introduction as a true love tragic is just as false I think.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He doesn't want to marry after the news of her death,

Words are wind. He's young, handsome, the King, why would he want to marry and be restricted?
Especially now that he's got a 'lost love' that gives him an emotional escape clause.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Doubtful, Ned is very judgmental with Robert and he is even more judgy with Robert's womanizing attitudes.

He's judgmental in certain ways, sure, yet naively always expects the best in this one area. Lyanna saw otherwise. Ned's too close. He judges certain elements, but refuses to let that judgement mean anything because it would hurt their friendship. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

That's not really the actual evidence but ok.

What is the actual evidence? Robert has this idea of Lyanna that simply isn't her. He's wrong every time he talks about her

1 hour ago, frenin said:
Who knows, he seemed pretty taken for the real her,

When?

1 hour ago, frenin said:
and the Robert it's shown in Agot it's not the Robert she was going to marry. 

Yes he is. 
He's older, and gone to seed, but he's still a hard drinking lech who avoids responsibilities that don't involve fighting.

What do we see of him outside a military context?
Trying to drink a fellow noble (fun :thumbsup:!) and leaping into a potential fight with an unknown (fun :thumbsup:!) (Lyanna, ironically!) at Harrenhal.
Playing with baby Mya (fun :thumbsup:!), even while losing interest in her mother (responsibility :thumbsdown: ). Did he provide for the baby at all? There's no evidence he did, Mya seems to have made her own way and not know her father was the king. He did want to bring her to KL (irresponsible fun :thumbsup:!) which was pretty damn stupid even if Cersei wasn't Cersei.
Fucking an entire brothel (fun :thumbsup:) while supposedly Lyanna is being raped daily by Rhaegar.

Robert is characterised by just a high sex drive. He's characterised as a fun frat-boy party guy who refuses to handle any responsibilities. The high sex drive is a part of that, but only part.

1 hour ago, frenin said:
It's a point made in the books several times that Robert changed a lot after donning the crown and not for the better,

Er, what?
The only change in Robert in the books is physical. He's still the character as he was in his youth, rather pointedly.

1 hour ago, frenin said:
Robert's actions and statements regardless match with him being concerned about her as a person.  

I don't see how. They seem to me to match with him being concerned for her as an extension of him. And what could have been as a stark opposite of what is.

 

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

If we didn't see inside his head, I'd wonder the same. But his actions later showed more. 

Gee, I don't know, maybe what he did later what out of guilt for having ignored his sister for a year..

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

I just prefer to go with what we have, what GRRM has chosen to show us, and not things he hasn't shown us.

True, then you should say that Robert wasn't hanging around with Lyanna in two, one really since the latter is super vague, instances of a ten day tourney.  

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

What he's shown us is old Robert waxing lyrical about his love for a girl he appears to completely misunderstand, and young Robert too busy partying to interact with her when they have a rare opportunity to spend time together.

That seems a curious take, Robert doesn't seem to completely misunderstand and Martin is shown young Robert doing other things while at Harrenhall than just hang with the Starks all the time, having a rare opportunity to spend time together doesn't mean they have to be together all the time. Lyanna would not be the only person he hadn't seen in a very long time.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

What he's shown is a drunken lecherous irresponsible old Robert who loves to fight/drink/fuck and ignores his responsibilities, and a young Robert who is the same character, just not gone to seed yet.

What he has shown is a depressed Robert who tries to mitigate his pain and dissatisfaction through rampant hedonism and dwelling in the good ol days, the young Robert is just a party animal. 

 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

This is not the same necessarily as what he's told us. He's told us (through Ned) that Robert loved Lyanna with all his heart. And that Rhaegar was a rapist.
Then he's shown us different things.

No, he didn't. Ned didn't accuse Rhaegar of being a rapist, Robert did.

 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

The point is, every time Robert talks about her, he's wrong. And every time he talks of what she would have wanted or done he translates his desires to be hers. There is no 'her' there in his head, only a him-shaped ideal.

I know your point.

Robert talks about what she would've done once and both him and Ned are meaning different things, even if at the end it's more likely than not that he'd be wrong, the tomb scene isn't Robert talking about what Lyanna would have wanted or done, it's Robert outright talking about what he would've wanted for her. Only after Ned reveals him what she wanted, he doesn't insist.

Regardless, given that he didn't know deeply, it's a foregone conclussion tha he would fill the voids anyway.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

How do you know? Because his bestie Ned thinks he loved her?
I'd put more stock in that if I saw more actions, as opposed to words, from Robert that showed it.

Truly, i find really no contradictions in his actions, since he hasn't any, just words.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Robert certainly loves the idea of her. I think Ned's love for his friend makes him a gullible fool in this area. Lyanna was the wiser of the two, we saw that in their remembered conversation.

He can love the idea of her, 15 years of glorification, there is little for him to love the idea of her in his young days, if he simply was smitten Ned would've noticed.

I think not, Ned's love for his friend doesn't refrain him for judging him sharply when he feels to both the old one and the young one, nor  do i think that Lyanna was really the wiser, love did change  Robert, to the very bad. And Lyanna never doubted Robert's alledged love, she simply saw that as inssuficient for him to stop being a womanizing.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Which only makes me doubt it more. 
Like Rhaegar's introduction as a rapist who did terrible things to Lyanna which Robert vowed to (and did) kill him for. Robert's introduction as a true love tragic is just as false I think.

That's not Rhaegar's introduction, this is Rhaegar's and Robert's introduction.

 

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

 

From the very beginning Martin is presenting a divided view. There is no reason for Ned to think that if that was false.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Words are wind. He's young, handsome, the King, why would he want to marry and be restricted?
Especially now that he's got a 'lost love' that gives him an emotional escape clause.

Acts aren't since it was Jon Arryn who convinced him to marry, Robert married Cersei a year later of his crowning, which means that it took several moths for Jon Arryn to be convinced to do it and if Lyanna was a fling, he would've fallen for Cersei just as quick.

Why would he be restricted if he marries again?? That's certainly not a conudrum for Westerosi Kings and Lords, him having sex.

He didn't want to marry because he just wanted to marry Lyanna. 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

He's judgmental in certain ways, sure, yet naively always expects the best in this one area. Lyanna saw otherwise. Ned's too close. He judges certain elements, but refuses to let that judgement mean anything because it would hurt their friendship. 

He is judgmental in every way tho, he ofc expected the best, but he thought he had little reason to expect otherwise, if Ned had believed that Robert's attitudes would suppose a problem, he would not have carried his proposal to Rickard and would've shut him down from the very beginning

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes he is. 
He's older, and gone to seed, but he's still a hard drinking lech who avoids responsibilities that don't involve fighting.

Trying to drink a fellow noble (fun :thumbsup:!) and leaping into a potential fight with an unknown (fun :thumbsup:!) (Lyanna, ironically!) at Harrenhal.
Playing with baby Mya (fun :thumbsup:!), even while losing interest in her mother (responsibility :thumbsdown: ). Did he provide for the baby at all? There's no evidence he did, Mya seems to have made her own way and not know her father was the king. He did want to bring her to KL (irresponsible fun :thumbsup:!) which was pretty damn stupid even if Cersei wasn't Cersei.
Fucking an entire brothel (fun :thumbsup:) while supposedly Lyanna is being raped daily by Rhaegar.

Robert is characterised by just a high sex drive. He's characterised as a fun frat-boy party guy who refuses to handle any responsibilities. The high sex drive is a part of that, but only part.

No, he isn't.

Losing interest in the mother is not irresponsible, as long as he provided for them, and we don't really know why he lost contact Mya, however having your daughter with you can never be irresponsible. Btw, can you tell me what has to fo the sex with the heart?? Is him not banging the brothel would make Lyanna less raped??

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Er, what?
The only change in Robert in the books is physical. He's still the character as he was in his youth, rather pointedly.

Hmm no, Ned knew and was used to Robert and yet he can't recognize him, Noye says that too, Robert is old age is neglectful and depressed, sloth and hedonist.

Unless ofc you think that fighting drinking and whoring is all he was reduced to as a person and since that didn't change, rather it got 100 times worse nothing change, then nothing can be done.

 

 

 

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I suspect Robert knew Lyanna didn't want him. At all. And unlike Cersei, (or for that matter, Sansa, or her mother) was not going to just let herself be married off to a knuckle-dragging drunk and bully she could outfight and outwit, and thoroughly despised.

That was why Robert was so obsessed with killing Rhaegar, and fantasizing about Lyanna being raped viciously hundreds of times by Rhaegar. Because before she left Harrenhal, she had shamed him and rejected him privately, and he was really keen that no one ever found out about that bit. So when she takes off with Rhaegar, it seems monstrously unfair and wrong to Robert,  and loudly raising the hue and cry against Rhaegar and hammering him down, loudly proclaiming it was all for her, while quietly hoping she dies of rape-related injuries and serve her right for rejecting the better warrior and better commander, for what he privately knows was the better man.

 JonCon worshipped Rhaegar for his honour, and despised Robert for his lack of it, even as Robert emerged from the brothel when the bells rang, and handed him defeat, because he wouldn't stoop to Tywin's tactics. The Starks are big on honour. Robert got pretty drunk at the feast of the tourney of Harrenhal, and he was dishonourably inclined to obilge women to have sex with him when he was drunk, and if Gendry's mum and Cersei were telling it true, was inclined to be rough. The Starks are big on honour, and Robert as the Lord of Storms End is not a great catch for Cersei, who lusts for power, or Lyanna, who doesn't. If Lyanna catches him out doing something sneaky and shameful that night, well, that could explain Robert's attitude to me. Also, if Ned found out, either from Robert after the battle on the Trident, or from Lyanna (when they snuck back north via Sweetsister, if she was disguised as Wylla the fishwife, or later, at the tower of Joy, if she was not), well maybe that was the real reason Ned had stayed in the North except when required to go into battle as Robert's bannerlord. And maybe that was why Robert thought better of inviting himself up to Winterfell while Jon Arryn lived, and Eddard thought he had a hide to come even then.

Cersei assumes Robert whispered Lyanna's name on their wedding night because he worshipped her, but Robert was a pig in bed, and ashamed to remember what turned him on, he blamed the wine, and chose to drink heavily before sex. It is possible he could have been fantasizing about doing something much less than reverent to Lyanna. And making no secret of it, because he wanted Cersei to know he didn't think about her even when he was using her, and he didn't rate her, no more than Rhaegar did. Heavy dramatic irony that Cersei gets revenge inside her head by pretending she is having sex with Rhaegar, who doesn't seem to have been the Seven's gift to women, either.

Robert being the king instead of Rhaegar might have been his fantasy revenge on Lyanna.

Btw, do we know if Robert married Cersei before or after Eddard returned from the Tower of Joy?

 

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1 hour ago, Walda said:

I suspect Robert knew Lyanna didn't want him. At all. And unlike Cersei, (or for that matter, Sansa, or her mother) was not going to just let herself be married off to a knuckle-dragging drunk and bully she could outfight and outwit, and thoroughly despised.

That was why Robert was so obsessed with killing Rhaegar, and fantasizing about Lyanna being raped viciously hundreds of times by Rhaegar. Because before she left Harrenhal, she had shamed him and rejected him privately, and he was really keen that no one ever found out about that bit. So when she takes off with Rhaegar, it seems monstrously unfair and wrong to Robert,  and loudly raising the hue and cry against Rhaegar and hammering him down, loudly proclaiming it was all for her, while quietly hoping she dies of rape-related injuries and serve her right for rejecting the better warrior and better commander, for what he privately knows was the better man.

 JonCon worshipped Rhaegar for his honour, and despised Robert for his lack of it, even as Robert emerged from the brothel when the bells rang, and handed him defeat, because he wouldn't stoop to Tywin's tactics. The Starks are big on honour. Robert got pretty drunk at the feast of the tourney of Harrenhal, and he was dishonourably inclined to obilge women to have sex with him when he was drunk, and if Gendry's mum and Cersei were telling it true, was inclined to be rough. The Starks are big on honour, and Robert as the Lord of Storms End is not a great catch for Cersei, who lusts for power, or Lyanna, who doesn't. If Lyanna catches him out doing something sneaky and shameful that night, well, that could explain Robert's attitude to me. Also, if Ned found out, either from Robert after the battle on the Trident, or from Lyanna (when they snuck back north via Sweetsister, if she was disguised as Wylla the fishwife, or later, at the tower of Joy, if she was not), well maybe that was the real reason Ned had stayed in the North except when required to go into battle as Robert's bannerlord. And maybe that was why Robert thought better of inviting himself up to Winterfell while Jon Arryn lived, and Eddard thought he had a hide to come even then.

Cersei assumes Robert whispered Lyanna's name on their wedding night because he worshipped her, but Robert was a pig in bed, and ashamed to remember what turned him on, he blamed the wine, and chose to drink heavily before sex. It is possible he could have been fantasizing about doing something much less than reverent to Lyanna. And making no secret of it, because he wanted Cersei to know he didn't think about her even when he was using her, and he didn't rate her, no more than Rhaegar did. Heavy dramatic irony that Cersei gets revenge inside her head by pretending she is having sex with Rhaegar, who doesn't seem to have been the Seven's gift to women, either.

Robert being the king instead of Rhaegar might have been his fantasy revenge on Lyanna.

Btw, do we know if Robert married Cersei before or after Eddard returned from the Tower of Joy?

 

  Robert married Cersei the year after his crowning.

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I think the real question isn't why Robert didn't accompany Eddard at the tower of joy, I think the real question is why Eddard traveled to that location with such a small group of only northern men.  In other words men that Eddard probably knew could keep a secret from everyone else, including Robert, and perhaps including John Connington.  There were no Stormlanders, or Valemen, or even Rivermen to supplement Eddards forces.  And the men that Eddard traveled with were all Northmen of note:

1.  Howland Reed, the Lord of the Neck and a friend to the Starks, particularly to Lyanna Stark.

2. Willlam Dustin, the Lord of House Dustin, the consolation prize for Lady Barbrey, Lord of the House where Brandon Stark was fostered,

3. Mark Ryswell, a knight of House Ryswell, and the location where Lyanna and Brandon rode the "Rills" together.

4.  Ethan Glover:  squire to Brandon Stark

5. Martyn Cassel: from to the House probably with the closest connection to House Stark,and probably their most loyal vassals

6. And finally Theo Wull of the most powerful northern clan, considered "faithful" by Eddard.  And the Wulls seemingly also having a strong loyalty to the Starks.

Outside of Theo Wull, who we know very little about, everyone else it can be assumed had strong loyal ties to both Lyanna, and/or Brandon.  These are people that Eddard probably could entrust to keep a secret.  

So the only possible take away is that when Eddard went to the tower of joy, he knew something was there that he needed to keep a secret from everyone, including his own Southron allies, at the expense of actually being able to accomplish his mission.  My thought is either Eddard traveled there knowing that Lyanna was there and either pregnant or having recently had a child, or that Lyanna wasn't there but Eddard was travelling there to retrieve Lyanna's child.

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