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Why did Robert not search for Lyanna after the sack?


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On 6/14/2020 at 12:18 PM, corbon said:

I'm not so sure that Robert was really that obsessed about Lyanna back then. None of his actions fit his claims. I suspect his obsession with Lyanna is more a product of his relationship with Cersei than anything else.
Sure, he wanted Lyanna and desired her, but I'm not certain he was that obsessed. The only clue anywhere (back then) that he really cared for her, is drunkenly whispering her name on his wedding night with Cersei, and thats easily explained by the drink and normal relationship history/desire.

Let me be clear that when I write about Robert's obsession with Lyanna I don't mean his love for her. I think his obsession comes with the "kidnapping" and has to do with Rhaegar taking what is his. Getting Lyanna back is the same obsessive compulsion he would feel if someone had robbed him of his money, or destroyed his property, or denied his lordly rights. Which is why he is also obsessively still looking to kill all Targaryens almost two decades later. Why he dreams of killing Rhaegar every night. He doesn't say he dreams of Lyanna and the tragedy of his lost love. It is all about what should have been his property and the lack of respect by the Targaryens for his rights.

I do think you're right that his relationship with Cersei makes him idealize Lyanna, but I don't think his obsession starts with a bad relationship with Cersei. It starts with Rhaegar.

But to the reason why I think it likely Robert would have ridden to get to Lyanna if he knew where she was after the sack, I think he shows his compulsion to get what was his back from the Targaryen robbers of his property. We see it in his view of Rhaegar's dead family as "dragonspawn." I think the Robert we know would have needed to kill Lyanna's "jailers" himself and win back his promised bride. Which makes me think he didn't know where she was.

No way to know for certain here, but that is my read of Robert's character.

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23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So the only possible take away is that when Eddard went to the tower of joy, he knew something was there that he needed to keep a secret from everyone, including his own Southron allies, at the expense of actually being able to accomplish his mission.  My thought is either Eddard traveled there knowing that Lyanna was there and either pregnant or having recently had a child, or that Lyanna wasn't there but Eddard was travelling there to retrieve Lyanna's child.

I think he knew everything and went to the Tower of Joy to take Lyanna, Baby Jon, then bring them back to Winterfell. The real question here is: how did he know ? Someone must have told him where to look.

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13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was for most of the war, so I'd say that information was not available in KL.

The counterpoint to this is that at some point the White Bull finds out where Rhaegar is and goes there  to deliver Aerys's message and to get Rhaegar to come back to his father's court. Possibly the Lord Commander doesn't get this information in King's Landing, but it is also possible that he knows where to go to find Rhaegar when he leaves the city. It is possibilities like this that make me not want to rule out Ned finding out Lyanna's location from a source in King's Landing.

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert isn't the one who went to rescue Lyanna when she went missing, and he wasn't the one who acted out when Rhaegar named her QoLaB. In both of those cases it was Brandon. Robert didn't do anything until Jon Arryn called his banners to go to war on behalf of his wards. I think part of Robert's feelings for Lyanna are an extension of his feelings for Ned (which Stannis is jealous of due to being Robert's actual brother). And if the Starks (such as Brandon) can act on behalf of Lyanna, then that removes the need for Robert to do that himself. The war is often reduced to Robert trying to get his fiancee back, which is a romanticized version he himself might prefer, but in addition to trying to save his own head, he's also fighting on behalf of his foster-brother and the wrongs his family experienced at the hands of the Targaryens. Robert remembers that years later, and expects the shared feelings that he and Ned have over those wrongs to bind their political coalition together.

I agree with all of this, but I also think it doesn't deal with the points I try to make in the above response to @corbon

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36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the real question isn't why Robert didn't accompany Eddard at the tower of joy, I think the real question is why Eddard traveled to that location with such a small group of only northern men.  In other words men that Eddard probably knew could keep a secret from everyone else, including Robert, and perhaps including John Connington.  There were no Stormlanders, or Valemen, or even Rivermen to supplement Eddards forces.  And the men that Eddard traveled with were all Northmen of note:

1.  Howland Reed, the Lord of the Neck and a friend to the Starks, particularly to Lyanna Stark.

2. Willlam Dustin, the Lord of House Dustin, the consolation prize for Lady Barbrey, Lord of the House where Brandon Stark was fostered,

3. Mark Ryswell, a knight of House Ryswell, and the location where Lyanna and Brandon rode the "Rills" together.

4.  Ethan Glover:  squire to Brandon Stark

5. Martyn Cassel: from to the House probably with the closest connection to House Stark,and probably their most loyal vassals

6. And finally Theo Wull of the most powerful northern clan, considered "faithful" by Eddard.  And the Wulls seemingly also having a strong loyalty to the Starks.

Outside of Theo Wull, who we know very little about, everyone else it can be assumed had strong loyal ties to both Lyanna, and/or Brandon.  These are people that Eddard probably could entrust to keep a secret.  

So the only possible take away is that when Eddard went to the tower of joy, he knew something was there that he needed to keep a secret from everyone, including his own Southron allies, at the expense of actually being able to accomplish his mission.  My thought is either Eddard traveled there knowing that Lyanna was there and either pregnant or having recently had a child, or that Lyanna wasn't there but Eddard was travelling there to retrieve Lyanna's child.

I absolutely agree with the critical point concerning the meaning of the nature of the small party that goes with Ned, and the crucial nature of the relationship these men have with Ned. 

I do think you make a jump in thinking it likely Ned knew Lyanna was pregnant, or that she had recently given birth. Ned has another reason to travel with only his closest friends and bannermen. I think it very likely Ned knew Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly because she wanted no part of a marriage to Robert and his unchanging "nature" and quite likely did not approve of her father's "southron ambitions." Ned was at Harrenhal and almost certainly knows of the attraction between Rhaegar and his sister, so he may well think a child could be the result, but I don't think it means that is why he goes so secretly to get his sister. I would suggest he knows she won't want to go back to Robert and likely hates him for killing Rhaegar. Child or no child, Ned needs to protect his sister from his friend, the new king.

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13 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I absolutely agree with the critical point concerning the meaning of the nature of the small party that goes with Ned, and the crucial nature of the relationship these men have with Ned. 

I do think you make a jump in thinking it likely Ned knew Lyanna was pregnant, or that she had recently given birth. Ned has another reason to travel with only his closest friends and bannermen. I think it very likely Ned knew Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly because she wanted no part of a marriage to Robert and his unchanging "nature" and quite likely did not approve of her father's "southron ambitions." Ned was at Harrenhal and almost certainly knows of the attraction between Rhaegar and his sister, so he may well think a child could be the result, but I don't think it means that is why he goes so secretly to get his sister. I would suggest he knows she won't want to go back to Robert and likely hates him for killing Rhaegar. Child or no child, Ned needs to protect his sister from his friend, the new king.

You and I have gone back and forth on this topic enough on the R + L thread, where you probably know where I stand.  

I lean towards the purpose of the journey to the tower of joy was to retrieve Lyanna's son, not Lyanna.  And I believe that the father was either Rhaegar or Brandon, the only two reasons why Lyanna's child would be such a deep dark secret.  I do find it interesting just how many people travelling with Eddard probably had stronger ties to Brandon than they would have had to Eddard.  Presumably Lord Dustin and Brandon may have grown up in a similar relationship that Ned and Robert had.  We have Brandon's squire, and we have a knight from the region where Brandon and Lyanna rode together.

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17 hours ago, corbon said:

To have previously had some accurate knowledge of what Lyanna was like?
If he got everything dead wrong every time he talked about her, why would the last time be any different?

So nothing in that particular bit of dialogue. Robert doesn't spend a whole lot of time talking to Ned about Lyanna was like, because he's unaware that readers could use the exposition.

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Like Rhaegar's introduction as a rapist who did terrible things to Lyanna

Unlike Robert's love for Lyanna, that's not one of Ned's thoughts.

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He's young, handsome, the King, why would he want to marry and be restricted?

He wanted to marry Lyanna when he was the young & handsome Lord of Storm's End. His parents didn't arrange it, he did.

9 hours ago, Walda said:

I suspect Robert knew Lyanna didn't want him.

What is your suspicion based on?

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That was why Robert was so obsessed with killing Rhaegar

It's Brandon who sought out Rhaegar, challenging him to "come out and die". Robert thinks a lot about killing Rhaegar, which was the end of the war for Robert and the closest thing to justice in his view given that Aerys and Lyanna both died with him absent.

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So when she takes off with Rhaegar, it seems monstrously unfair and wrong to Robert,  and loudly raising the hue and cry against Rhaegar and hammering him down, loudly proclaiming it was all for her, while quietly hoping she dies of rape-related injuries

It wasn't Robert who raised the hue and cry, but Brandon. And if he thinks she left voluntarily, why would he think she's being raped to the point of death?

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JonCon worshipped Rhaegar for his honour, and despised Robert for his lack of it

I think JonCon's take on Rhaegar vs Robert turned on something other than honor. After all, Robert sending his own maester to care for Barristan even though the latter had fought as hard as he could against Robert's forces is an emblematic instance of Westerosi honor.

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if Ned found out, either from Robert after the battle on the Trident, or from Lyanna (when they snuck back north via Sweetsister, if she was disguised as Wylla the fishwife, or later, at the tower of Joy, if she was not), well maybe that was the real reason Ned had stayed in the North except when required to go into battle as Robert's bannerlord

Ned thoughts on Robert don't indicate that he gave up on him long ago. Instead Ned is disappointed that Robert isn't as Ned remembered.

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And making no secret of it, because he wanted Cersei to know he didn't think about her even when he was using her

Robert doesn't put that much thought into what other people think. As GRRM said of his grants of Storm's End & Dragonstone to his brothers, he's thoughtlessly generous (and generous is how an aristocrat is supposed to be).

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Btw, do we know if Robert married Cersei before or after Eddard returned from the Tower of Joy?

After.

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Getting Lyanna back is the same obsessive compulsion he would feel if someone had robbed him of his money, or destroyed his property

I don't think Robert cared that much about material possessions. As noted, he was thoughtlessly generous. He doesn't care much if corrupt officials are embezzling taxes before they can reach Robert. He also wishes he could abandon the throne to be a sellsword without Joffrey & Cersei screwing everything up. And even when people gave him blades as gifts, thinking Robert would appreciate that, he just continued using his old hunting knife Jon Arryn gave him as a boy and forgot about those.

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Which is why he is also obsessively still looking to kill all Targaryens almost two decades later.

He'd gone alone with Jon Arryn's advice to ignore the Targaryens when they were young. The reason he gives for that changing is the Dothraki horde gained in a marriage alliance. And all the Small Council but Ned and Barristan agree with Robert, even though you can assume they're not all "obsessed". Even Ned & Barristan's objection is based on it being dishonorable to assassinate someone rather than fight them in open battle.

 

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Possibly the Lord Commander doesn't get this information in King's Landing, but it is also possible that he knows where to go to find Rhaegar when he leaves the city.

As Lord Commander, he knows which KG are missing and they may have more personal loyalty to him that they wouldn't to Aerys if he's looking for them.

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I do think you make a jump in thinking it likely Ned knew Lyanna was pregnant, or that she had recently given birth. Ned has another reason to travel with only his closest friends and bannermen. I think it very likely Ned knew Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly because she wanted no part of a marriage to Robert and his unchanging "nature" and quite likely did not approve of her father's "southron ambitions." Ned was at Harrenhal and almost certainly knows of the attraction between Rhaegar and his sister

Brandon was also at Harrenhal, but he still demanded that Rhaegar come out and die. Ned didn't seem to do anything with his knowledge when his brother was locked up and his father was summoned.

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24 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What is your suspicion based on?

I don't have time or energy for longer answers at the moment. 
I suspect this.
 

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Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar  Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.

Rapists don't get to reunite with their victims in death, lovers do. Robert sub-consciously believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna are united after death.

Robert isn't willing to admit it, even to himself, but somehow he knew that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar.

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9 minutes ago, corbon said:

I don't have time or energy for longer answers at the moment. 
I suspect this.

That question was for Walda.

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Rapists don't get to reunite with their victims in death, lovers do. Robert sub-consciously believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna are united after death.

The Zodiac Killer claimed his victims would be his slaves in the afterlife. Robert is alive while Lyanna is dead, so he feels like he lost. When Robert himself is dying he thinks he's going to be reunited with Lyanna.

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On 6/17/2020 at 9:15 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

What is your suspicion based on?

My suspicion that Robert knew Lyanna didn't want him is mainly based on details from Meera's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Robert's use of the word 'protect'.

At the ball, the night before Rhaegar named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, Meera tells of Ashara dancing with one partner after another, while Lyanna is with her little brother in one corner, moved to tears by a song sung by Rhaegar,  and Robert is in another corner doing shots with Rhaegar's squire.

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The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war.

(ASoS Ch.24 Bran II)

Here we see how Robert treated an opportunity to associate with his betrothed, one of the few where associating with each other was not only socially sanctioned, but expected.

For girls, being asked to dance or not being asked to dance had great social significance, and other people were keeping track on the sidelines (as we can see with Ashara's partners). 

As Lyanna's betrothed, Robert would be expected to have the first dance with her, which would then allow other men to ask her to dance without seeming to be trying to cut his grass. If they had been married and Robert did not wish to dance, a prospective partner could simply have asked his permission as well as hers, the way Ser Garlan does at Sansa's wedding, but that is not appropriate when Robert hasn't yet put a cloak on it. 

If he had considered her situation and wished her to be free to dance, he would have danced with her first. By not dancing with her, but still hanging around the hall, any man who attempts to dance with her is publically taking precedence of Robert, and is giving Robert an excuse to 'protect' his betrothed and defend 'her honour' (really, his claim on her). The only men able to dance with Lyanna without risking Robert's righteous wrath are her brothers, and a woman who stands up with her brother at a ball is a laughing stock.

I believe that GRRM intended Westeros to have a code for dancing and dueling that was every bit as complex and absurd as that of Regency England, from what we are told of Alys Karstark's marriage to the Magnar of Thenn

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Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. Jon judged that wise. He did not like the way some of the queen’s knights were looking at the steward, particularly Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain. That one wants to shed a bit of blood, he thought. He is looking for some provocation.

(ADwD Ch.49 Jon X)

 So, there is that. I don't think that is why Lyanna is crying, though. Although the fact she is crying, at a ball, and it is Benjen that distracts her, not Robert, is another public display of trouble in paradise. Other people notice (to the point where it makes it into the story Howland tells his children) but Robert is too busy drinking.

It is not unusual for Rhaegar's songs to reduce ladies to tears, but Lyanna is a Stark. Starks don't cry. Sometimes when they are sad they get snowmelt on their cheeks, that's all. I think Lyanna heard a particular message in that song that moved her deeply, perhaps decided her on a fateful course. I think that it would take more than Rhaegar's sad eyes or virtuosity or a pretty tune to melt a Stark.

Robert did not go to Lyanna to ask her to dance, and he did not go to her when she cried.

He had been given no cause to 'defend' her honour with steel, and his obsession with Lyanna did not extend to even an ordinary amount of solicitation for her happiness. At least, not that night.

It is very clear Lyanna was not in love with Robert on the night they were betrothed. Lord Rickard might have rapturously gasped "Yes, a thousand times, yes" but Lyanna said

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“Robert will never keep to one bed,”

(AGoT Ch.35 Eddard IX )

She was speaking to Eddard, who was apparently the one that spoke to her about it. For all the love he professes, Robert seems to think better of actually associating with his bride unnecessarily. 

This remark tells us that Lyanna is not even trying to pretend to be in love with Robert, and that she does not believe Robert would ever inconvenience himself for her sake, that his love won't make either of them happy together.

However her father and Robert felt about it, she was clearly not delighted. Lyanna's answer is a shrewd, level-headed comment about a relationship that is doomed from the start. She isn't giving an obedient "Yes, father" , like Catelyn. Her remark is a little like Sansa's reaction to Petyr's proposal to marry her to Harry the Heir, except less innocent, and Sansa was tasked with winning Harry's affection, with Petyr carefully explaining that she will get the knights of the Vale, and Winterfell, as well as the Eyire.

Lyanna doesn't have a cause the knights of the Stormlands could assist, and if she had, it might have taken more than Robert's love for her to get the knights of the Stormlands onside (I notice half of them supported Rhaegar in Robert's  rebellion.)

Apart from the girl, Robert stood to get the strategic advantage of the banners of the North on his side. His friendship with Eddard might not have been enough to rally the North to his cause, if Lyanna had been betrothed to any other man.

 Except, of course, Robert had no need of the strategic advantage of armies of allies, as he had no communication with Lord Tywin, no thought of rebelling, until Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and Aerys killed her father and her brother. Right?

It seems odd to me that Eddard didn't tip his friend off to the fact that his sister wasn't keen on the match, and wasn't likely to make him happy. Although, the way he deals with Cersei, sullenly ignoring her when sober, assaulting her when drunk, caving to her as a tacit apology later, then blaming her and loathing her for the bad things she made him do - turning a blind eye to how Lyanna feels about marrying him is helping him develop the habits and attitudes of a miserable marriage.

Robert doesn't know Lyanna (@corbon has given several examples from the books, earlier in this thread), and at the feast at Harrenhal he acts like he doesn't want to know her.

He is too busy drinking Rhaegar's squire under the table. Rhaegar's squire. A day or two later, Robert and Richard Lonmouth join in a scheme to unmask the mystery knight. 

He is also doing this in the sight of Mad King Aerys, who is full of paranoid suspicion that Rhaegar is trying to undermine him.

When the Knight of the Laughing Tree appears in the lists, Aerys thinks he has an excuse to punish Jaime Lannister for defying him in order to compete at the tourney. (ASoS Ch.44 Jaime VI). The size of the mystery knight, the symbol on his shield, his particular targeting of the knights whose squires attacked the Crannogman, made it clear to anyone with an ounce of commonsense that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was not Ser Jaime nor any Westerman.

No doubt both Rhaegar and Robert both had enough nous to see it was a Northerner, no bigger than a boy. Robert wanted to ingratiate himself to Aerys, with Rhaegar's squire at his side, so he could rope Rhaegar in if the scheme went pearshaped. Which of course it was bound to do, because Aerys was ruthless and paranoid.

I think Rhaegar was smart enough to be able to make the Knight of the Laughing Tree vanish, just by playing a well-chosen song. Robert on the other hand, would require some stripling to be publically defeated and humiliated by him. I doubt Arys would settle for less than the death of a Crannogman. Perhaps if it were the youngest son of Lord Rickard he would settle for him spending the rest of his life on the Wall.

That confrontation never took place, but I wonder how it would have gone down. Robert was an indifferent jouster, so Lyanna might have bested him there, but then, Robert would likely have played to his strengths and  knocked off her helm with his war hammer at an opportune moment.

Looking closely at Robert's obsession, it is driven by hatred of Rhaegar, not love for Lyanna. Why he hates Rhaegar is not at all clear to me, but every time he speaks of Lyanna, his thoughts turn to Rhaegar. Lyanna is the pretext Robert needed to kill Rhaegar. He loved the pretty face, he loves the memory. He speaks in a way that reminds me of Tyrion's cynical reflection on Illyrio's Serra

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Tyrion knew that she was dead; no man spoke so fondly of a woman who had abandoned him.

(ADwD Ch.5 Tyrion II)

And then there is the rape. It seems to me that someone who really cared about Lyanna's existence would be more grieved by the fact she is gone, and less inclined to dwell on how she died. It takes a special kind of love to ask her brother how many hundreds of times does he think Rhagar raped her. That is yet another sign that this is more about hatred of Rhaegar than love for Lyanna.

Drinking with Rhaegar's squire is a good way to obtain information about the condition of Rhaegar's horses and whatever Rhaegar is planning to do on the morrow. He might hope to get Lonmouth so hungover the next day rhat he neglected some vital part of Rhaegar's armour or just want Rhaegar to know he had his eyes on him.

Also, with respect to the targets of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, when it was time to enter the battle of the Trident, the Freys and the Heighs were late to the field, but claimed to be on Robert's side,  and the only Blount we know of became a knight of Robert's Kingsguard. 

Really, if anyone is plotting against Aerys at Harrenhal, it is Robert. He is the one that can mingle wirh whom he chooses, unsuspected.

 We are told time and again that Robert rose in rebellion because Rhaegar abducted Lyanna

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Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark.

(ADwD Epilogue (Kevan))

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Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

(ADwD Ch.67 The Kingbreaker (Barristan))

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“Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that?"

(ASoS Ch.42 Daenerys IV )

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Where was the beautiful Lady Lyanna that King Robert had named in honor of the maid he’d loved and lost?

(ACoK Ch.58 Davos III)

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“Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her,” Bran explained. “Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all.”

(AGoT Ch.66 Bran VII)

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“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

(AGoT Ch.12 Eddard II)

 That last is the first mention of the story, so we know from the start that Lyanna herself had a different story. 'Promise me, Ned' follows every time Eddard claims she wanted to come home to Winterfell, or that Robert fought for her. Eddard and Ser Barristan were at the battle, first hand witnesses, but both of them are choosing thier words carefully, both withhold information.

A couple of times Eddard says things about his former friend that could reveal a less than brotherly opinion of Robert

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Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, 

 (AGoT Ch.5 Jon I)

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“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.

(AGoT Ch.35 Eddard IX)

The way that last one is written strongly implies Robert had broken some vow he made Lyanna, too.

As you pointed out, it was Brandon who went to find Rhaegar and demand satisfaction from him, not Robert.

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Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun.

(AGoT Ch. 4 Eddard I)

But Robert never contradictd the story that he rose in rebellion for the love of Lyanna.

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A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be.

(AGoT Ch.12 Eddard II)

Which brings me to what Robert Baratheon means by safe

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“Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House. She refused to even hear of it. Then she left in the dead of night, without so much as a by-your-leave. Cersei was furious.” He sighed deeply. “The boy is my namesake, did you know that? Robert Arryn. I am sworn to protect him. How can I do that if his mother steals him away?

(AGoT Ch.4 Eddard I)

Robert saw the Targaryen children, wrapped in their Lannister cloaks. Cersei understands why Lord Tywin would honour Lysa this way, and explains to Jaime

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“You fret too much. Lysa Arryn is a frightened cow.”


“That frightened cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.”


“If she knew anything, she would have gone to Robert before she fled King’s Landing.”


“When he had already agreed to foster that weakling son of hers at Casterly Rock? I think not. She knew the boy’s life would be hostage to her silence. She may grow bolder now that he’s safe atop the Eyrie.

(AGoT Ch.8 Bran II)

Robert was not concerned about protecting the personal safety of the child, his interest was in keeping the knights of the Vale under the control of the Iron Throne, ready to defend the throne against the Dothraki hordes of Daenerys, and any other threat to the realm that Varys chooses to amp up 250%.

Cersei knows SweetRobin is safer with his mother than her father. Eddard also. Robert is not a person that keeps women or children safe. He would kill Daenerys, he would bed his brother's maiden sister-in-law at his wedding, in the hymenal bed no less. 

Robert's promises to protect people are promises to fight armed and declared male opponents on a battlefield. That's what he does. He doesn't hate children and women, but he regards these weak things as toys that he can take out and play with, or pack away if they are getting in the way.

When Cersei defys him or tries to stop him doing what he wants, the fists come out. When Joffrey horrifys him by eviscerating the cat, the fists come out. They should do what he wants when he wants, or the fists come out. 

When Robert gets what he wants, he can be generous. When he is with fellow fighters, he can be charming. He loves playing Santa to his bastard children, giving long expected surprise visits, then vanishing.

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I knew that he would always be there to catch me.” She pushed her hair back. “Then one day he wasn’t. Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you."

(AFfC Ch.41 Alayne II) That is how he treats his bastard children, and that is better than how he treats his 'legitimate' children. 

Aerys was also known to be generous and charming - to his lickspittles and to men with the power to give him things he wanted. One man's lickspittle is another's boon companion. I do see Robert pays his whores and he gives his wife free rein on the management of their household staff and children, but that does not make him a generous lover or a good husband. 

Cersei gets the blame for Joffrey's behaviour, but it seems to me that Joffrey is admiring and imitating the fierce and strong Robert. Who lets his son wear a real sword, and decides the problem is how  Joffrey will be able to protect her if she keeps that vicious wolf. He decided that. But he blames Cersei for that decision. He also ordered the death of Micha, with far less ceremony.

Women and children under Robert's protection are not safe. Lyanna knew, Eddard knew, Cersei and Mya found out.

Harwin notes that

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There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that?

(ASoS Ch.43 Arya VIII)

No harm for Eddard, who was not betrothed to anyone. For a maiden, whose honour required her to be a virgin bride, quite a bit. For Robert after the melee, with a fiancee just waiting for him to do something dishonourable,  and a skinful of drink, and plenty of skirt around and a plan to unmask the mystery knight,  that hot blood is a disaster all set up ready to happen.

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On 6/21/2020 at 7:41 AM, Walda said:

At the ball, the night before Rhaegar named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, Meera tells of Ashara dancing with one partner after another, while Lyanna is with her little brother in one corner, moved to tears by a song sung by Rhaegar,  and Robert is in another corner doing shots with Rhaegar's squire.

I’m not sure we can use this as a passage to assume that Robert did not dance with Lyanna.  Presumably Rhaegar sang during the feast, and everyone was seated listening to him and not dancing.  The dancing probably occurred afterwards (which is the sequence it appears in the story).  So we don’t know whether or not Robert danced with Lyanna.  All we probably know that during the dancing, Robert was probably fairly intoxicated, and Benjen was fairly wet.

On 6/21/2020 at 7:41 AM, Walda said:

Drinking with Rhaegar's squire is a good way to obtain information about the condition of Rhaegar's horses and whatever Rhaegar is planning to do on the morrow. He might hope to get Lonmouth so hungover the next day rhat he neglected some vital part of Rhaegar's armour or just want Rhaegar to know he had his eyes on him.

Except that Robert didn’t fight in the joust did he?  He fought in the melee.  And let us not forget that Rhaegar did not fight in the melee (or apparently even planned on the joust until the knight of the laughing tree made his(her?) appearance.  So trying to give Robert a motive for out drinking the knight of kisses may be giving Robert too much credit.  It’s more probable that Robert was just competitive and very proud of the amount of alcohol he could consume.

ETA: Though I don't have any real issues with your general premise.  I do wonder if perhaps Robert had one of his one night stands at Harrenhal, and that is what caused Lyanna to come to the conclusion that Robert would never be able to change his general nature.  (Ah, strike that I went back and revisited the quote, Lyanna was referring to the news that Robert had fathered a bastard at the Eyrie).  If so, I wonder that rather than Robert plotting against Rhaegar during the drinking contest, if instead it was the other way around.  That Rhaegar had his squire get Robert drunk specifically to lead him into a one night affair.  But my suspicions for Rhaegar's motivation in doing this is probably far different than anyone else on this board.

As for Robert himself, I do think he gets of a bit of a raw deal, at least the pre-Sack Robert does.  And his hatred of Rhaegar apparently did not start at Harrenhal.  After all, despite Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, Robert takes it much better than Brandon.  And Robert doesn't ride off half-cocked to King's Landing upon word of Lyanna's disappearance.  Certainly by the time of the Trident, if not before, Robert had vowed to kill Rhaegar.  And his reaction to the death of Rhaegar's children certainly shows a man blinded by revenge.

But also to be fair we don't know how Robert reacted when Eddard first brought him the news of Lyanna's death, other than the grief they shared together brought them back together as friends.  So it may be a bit unfair to depict Robert's feelings for Lyanna as solely those of a possession that was stolen from him.  He did appear to have some real feelings for Lyanna.  Although I do agree that his hatred of Rhaegar may have grown stronger than his love of Lyanna.

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On 6/21/2020 at 7:41 AM, Walda said:

Robert's use of the word 'protect'

I think you've got a very idiosyncratic interpretation of that.

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Here we see how Robert treated an opportunity to associate with his betrothed, one of the few where associating with each other was not only socially sanctioned, but expected.

We don't get anyone commenting about people not behaving as expected.

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For girls, being asked to dance or not being asked to dance had great social significance, and other people were keeping track on the sidelines (as we can see with Ashara's partners).

Ashara and her partners are ALL we get for dancing. We don't hear if anybody else danced or not, because the story isn't an encyclopedia article about everyone who danced.

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As Lyanna's betrothed, Robert would be expected to have the first dance with her

Who did have her first dance, if not him?

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at a ball

It's a tourney rather than a ball.

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Starks don't cry

I don't think that's true.

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he did not go to her when she cried

Does someone tearing up over a sad song really need another person's intervention? Lyanna didn't appreciate Benjen's.

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his particular targeting of the knights whose squires attacked the Crannogman

I don't think the incident with the squires was common knowledge.

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No doubt both Rhaegar and Robert both had enough nous to see it was a Northerner

How so?

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Robert wanted to ingratiate himself to Aerys, with Rhaegar's squire at his side, so he could rope Rhaegar in if the scheme went pearshaped. Which of course it was bound to do, because Aerys was ruthless and paranoid.

I think you're putting more thought into this than Robert did. Unmasking a mystery knight is the stuff of stories.

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Robert on the other hand, would require some stripling to be publically defeated and humiliated by him

If the KotLT had fled, there would be no reason to expect the defeat to be public. Or do you think Robert was being disingenuous precisely because he didn't see the point in privately defeating the knight?

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I doubt Arys would settle for less than the death of a Crannogman. Perhaps if it were the youngest son of Lord Rickard he would settle for him spending the rest of his life on the Wall.

I don't think mystery knights have ever received such a punishment. Jaime would be punished because Aerys had specifically ordered him not to participate in the tourney but instead to go to KL.

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Robert was an indifferent jouster, so Lyanna might have bested him there

That bit has always seemed odd to me, because even if she could ride I wouldn't think she'd have jousting experience. I guess we're not supposed to think too much about that when hearing the story.

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Looking closely at Robert's obsession, it is driven by hatred of Rhaegar, not love for Lyanna

The two are inextricably entwined in his mind. Lyanna disappeared and died because of Rhaegar. When he thinks of one, his mind naturally goes to the other (until he's dying himself).

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Why he hates Rhaegar is not at all clear to me

It's not any kind of mystery: he thinks Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, resulting in her death.

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He speaks in a way that reminds me of Tyrion's cynical reflection on Illyrio's Serra

To me that quote indicates the opposite: Robert does not think Lyanna abandoned him.

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And then there is the rape. It seems to me that someone who really cared about Lyanna's existence would be more grieved by the fact she is gone

You think Robert isn't grieved by her absence? His shared grief with Ned is what repaired their friendship after the "dragonspawn" comment, and he whispered her name during his wedding night with Cersei.

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and less inclined to dwell on how she died

He brings that up when Ned says it would be "unspeakable" to have Daenerys killed, and he lists it after first mentioning what Aerys did to Brandon and Rickard. Robert lumps them all together as examples of how awful the Targaryens were.

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Drinking with Rhaegar's squire is a good way to obtain information about the condition of Rhaegar's horses and whatever Rhaegar is planning to do on the morrow. He might hope to get Lonmouth so hungover the next day rhat he neglected some vital part of Rhaegar's armour or just want Rhaegar to know he had his eyes on him.

I don't think Robert even participated in the joust, nor do we know if Rhaegar was in the melee. And if Robert wanted Rhaegar to know he had his eyes on him, why did he laugh off Rhaegar naming Lyanna the QoLaB?

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Really, if anyone is plotting against Aerys at Harrenhal, it is Robert. He is the one that can mingle wirh whom he chooses, unsuspected.

Robert's not much of a plotter. Nobody seems to think he was doing any plotting there. It's hard to think straight during a drinking contest.

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The way that last one is written strongly implies Robert had broken some vow he made Lyanna, too.

It's a general statement about their respective characters, which is why it refers to Ned keeping his "vows" plural.

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Robert saw the Targaryen children, wrapped in their Lannister cloaks. Cersei understands why Lord Tywin would honour Lysa this way, and explains to Jaime

Don't be dense. Cersei knows her children are bastard products of incest, so Robert's brothers come before them and are threats. She's also plotting for Robert's death. Jon Arryn was poisoned, as Pycelle figured out, and Pycelle could tell from looking at Cersei that she wanted Jon dead because he knew too much (which is why she's worried about what he might have told Lysa). Robert doesn't know any of this. Tywin is one of the most powerful lords in the Seven Kingdoms, and Robert's father-in-law. Bonds of fostering is how political alliances work in Westeros. Robert himself was raised in the Eyrie with Ned, and that's the source of some of his fondest memories (and the one knife he used ever after). Robert did not think of himself as a hostage, instead Jon Arryn upheld his vows of guestright and called his banners to defend his wards. Robert wants the same thing for his namesake that he had for himself. Rhaegar's children were not Tywin's wards, they were dynastic rivals during a rebellion and Robert doesn't expect a similar conflict to put Tywin on a different side from the Arryns (or himself).

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Robert was not concerned about protecting the personal safety of the child, his interest was in keeping the knights of the Vale under the control of the Iron Throne

Robert doesn't say anything about those knights in connection with his decision, but instead his personal responsibility because Jon Arryn named his only surviving child after Robert. Robert hadn't been expecting Lysa to withdraw support, or even to leave KL, hence his complaints to Ned.

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Cersei knows SweetRobin is safer with his mother than her father

We don't get any indication she thinks crazy Lysa confers "safety", just that having Tywin foster him would give the Lannisters leverage.

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Eddard also

Eddard received a letter from Lysa blaming the Lannisters for killing Jon Arryn. Robert doesn't know any of that. Of course he's going to think of them differently!

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Robert is not a person that keeps women or children safe.

The very last thing he did was ask Ned to protect Robert's children as if they were his own. Handing off responsibility to others IS Robert's idea of protecting children.

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Robert's promises to protect people are promises to fight armed and declared male opponents on a battlefield.

The very quote you have of him about SweetRobin says nothing about "fighting armed and declared male opponents on the battlefield". Nor did his last request of Ned mention that.

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Aerys was also known to be generous and charming - to his lickspittles and to men with the power to give him things he wanted. One man's lickspittle is another's boon companion.

Robert is famously forgiving, even of people who fought against him. Eddard can vociferously disagree with Robert, and Robert won't hold it against him. Robert doesn't require that his friends be lickspittles, he has some awareness of his own limitations and has people around to make up for Robert's own deficiencies.

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Cersei gets the blame for Joffrey's behaviour, but it seems to me that Joffrey is admiring and imitating the fierce and strong Robert.

Cersei expresses puzzlement at this because Robert had so little to do with Joffrey (after Cersei threatened to kill him in his sleep if he hit Joffrey). The simple thing she didn't consider is that Joffrey is reacting against her (and later Tywin). Robert's own actions aren't particularly relevant for that, he's just not them so when Joffrey is annoyed with any parental authority he can cite Robert as a preferable ideal. Another reason Robert gets little blame is that he's not responsible for those incestuous genetics.

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decides the problem is how  Joffrey will be able to protect her if she keeps that vicious wolf.

I don't think there's a serious argument against Robert and in favor of keeping it at KL (though it could have been sent back home). Direwolves aren't a domesticated speciees, and they grow to be enormous.

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He also ordered the death of Micha, with far less ceremony.

There was no ceremony, because he gave no such order (Sandor doesn't even claim Robert did when he's on trial for it, instead citing Joffrey and Sansa's testimony). He dismissed children fighting and said each parent should discipline their own child. He even seemed to think it was a good thing Joffrey got scars.

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For Robert after the melee, with a fiancee just waiting for him to do something dishonourable,  and a skinful of drink, and plenty of skirt around and a plan to unmask the mystery knight,  that hot blood is a disaster all set up ready to happen.

I don't actually know what you're getting at there.

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9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Who did have her first dance, if not him?

The story we are given has her not dancing at the feast at all.

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How so?

Mostly, because the Knight of the Laughing Tree has a symbol of the Old Gods emblazoned on his shield. Also because neither Robert or Rhaegar were just looking for an excuse to punish Jaime.

There would be other clues. For example, the mystery knight challenged and ransomed a Heigh and a Frey, and their reaction indicates this was not a local lad the Heighs and Freys knew,  have trained and jousted with before.

 His courser would be another 'tell' - I'm guessing it was a fine horse, obviously specifically trained for coursing, who knew how to behave in the list and was not unduly concerned by the noisy human audience and the other horses, fitted with all the essential gear Northern style, knew how to charge, well bred, very probably with distinctive  traits of Dustin bloodlines. And grazing with the Northerners horses earlier/later in the day.

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Does someone tearing up over a sad song really need another person's intervention?

Not need, in fact it would be a pointless thing to do if the person tearing up wasn't someone you knew well, or cared much about. But lovers often do unnecessary things to show their more than ordinary solicitation, reveal their deep emotional connection, or just to find an excuse to be close to each other. 

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

do you think Robert was being disingenuous precisely because he didn't see the point in privately defeating the knight?

I think Robert thought unmasking the mystery knight would be a fun thing to do with Richard Lonmouth, that would bond them together, and win them the approval of King Aerys. For that, a public reveal was necessary. Just having the mystery knight slink off isn't going to get them the glorious mention in all the accounts of the tourney, or gratify their king.

My point here is, anyone could see Robert wanted to be with the guy that is closest to Rhaegar at the tourney of Harrenhal. It wasn't so obvious he wanted to be with Lyanna.

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

if Robert wanted Rhaegar to know he had his eyes on him, why did he laugh off Rhaegar naming Lyanna the QoLaB?

Actually, when Eddard says the smiles died, it was Robert's smiles he had been observing.

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Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

(AGoT Ch.58 Eddard XV)

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14 hours ago, Walda said:

The story we are given has her not dancing at the feast at all.

And does that make her atypical?

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For example, the mystery knight challenged and ransomed a Heigh and a Frey, and their reaction indicates this was not a local lad the Heighs and Freys knew,  have trained and jousted with before.

The knight's identity is also a mystery to them. They wouldn't know if it was someone they'd encountered before.

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fitted with all the essential gear Northern style

No mention is made of the gear being in any such style, nor of any "northern style" of gear being particularly recognizable.

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Actually, when Eddard says the smiles died, it was Robert's smiles he had been observing.

He says "all" smiles died, not singling out Robert. And we also hear that while Brandon had to be restrained, Robert publicly dismissed it as merely Lyanna's due. That's completely inconsistent with trying to send a message to Rhaegar warning him that Robert was watching.

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While the books do not specifically say there is a Northern style of tourney tack (or that tourney tack is any different from general tack) it does note that the North doesn't have as many knights, and isn't as into the sports of chivalry.  I infer from that, that Northerners would be less likely to have a goldenheart lance, or the ornamental armour that Salloreon and Tobho Motte specalised in..

 Even when thier tack was the same sort of gear used in the South, they would likely fix it in different ways, ways that derived from how they did it for the training yard, or the hunt, or how they used to set it up when they were in the heavy horse and preparing to charge on a battlefield, rather than in the various fancy ways that gave elite tourney competitors a slight advantage idepending what list they were in, but gave no battlefield advantage. I

it is a world where everything is hand made, with no standard sizes. As everything is tailored and arranged to suit a particular horse/ rider/ purse/ house/ forge,/smith or apprentice, , people who know what they are looking at will recognise what they see, the way Ser Karyl and Ser Willum Darry's former stablehand were able to identify the raiders of Sherrer by their size and gear and horses.

21 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert publicly dismissed it as merely Lyanna's due

Could you give me the quote from the books you got that from?

 I think "all the smiles"could mean "all Robert's smiles" (the ones he was making as he jested with Jon Arryn and Eon Hunter), or all the smiles of the three of them, or all the smiles of everybody.

I can't find anything that says Robert laughed it off.

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14 hours ago, Walda said:

I think "all the smiles"could mean "all Robert's smiles" (the ones he was making as he jested with Jon Arryn and Eon Hunter), or all the smiles of the three of them, or all the smiles of everybody.

Good observation.

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I can't find anything that says Robert laughed it off.

I can sort of remember that quote too - the laurel was only what Lyanna was due. I can't find it now . Sometimes I think the books are specially written to be immune to search engines, keywords all split up over the page.

ETA

ok, might not be the main series. The wiki's Lyanna page has it, with a reference to the World of Ice and Fire (which I have not read, so I'm a bit mystified where I saw it).

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16 hours ago, Walda said:

Could you give me the quote from the books you got that from?

 

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And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
 
Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

 

16 hours ago, Walda said:

 I think "all the smiles"could mean "all Robert's smiles" (the ones he was making as he jested with Jon Arryn and Eon Hunter), or all the smiles of the three of them, or all the smiles of everybody.

I think it likely to be a generic, nonspecific term. I think it signifies the general shock and surprise at an unexpected event more than anything else. I'm sure some people smiled at it in fact - courtiers (those lickspittle lords among them) seeing an opportunity for example. And we are told Robert laughed it off (though I expect his smile died first!)
The simple fact is that Ned could not possibly have been carefully watching everybody's faces and their smiles at the time, even if he were not actually watching the event himself (which I'm sure he was). Thus it cannot possibly be a literal truth, and must be a figurative one. Its a pretty natural expression to signify general shock in a previously happy/cruisy audience.

 

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On 6/15/2020 at 2:32 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think Robert would have raced off to claim Lyanna as soon as he was able to do so if he had known where she was, but not because he was madly in love with her. He wasn't in love with her at all; he thought he owned her.

I think his reaction to her disappearance had mostly to do with himself and little to do with her. He couldn't abide the thought of anyone else having access to his possession and he really couldn't abide the thought of what her disappearance might say about her view of him.

And then he is still lamenting about her after 15 years. If he thought of her as a trophy wife then I don't think he would be doing so

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/13/2020 at 2:30 PM, alienarea said:

This is an odd thing that has not been explained to the best of my knowledge.

Robert Baratheon is madly in love with Lyanna Stark, and still grieving when he visits Winterfell in the beginning of AGoT.

Why doesn't he join Ned in searching for her after the sack of KL?

Independent of a shout out with my best friend, I would search for my love, wouldn't I? 

He was busy swinging his hammer of sorts with some locals with yellow hair.

 

Honestly I think it is a plot hole. George probably never expected anywhere near this level of fandom and scrutiny.

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