How will Jon's appearance change after he is ressurected?

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Mithras said:

This proves that in an alternate universe where GRRM is releasing ASOIAF as a miniseries, if the first installment ends with Bran's fall and GRRM takes a decade to release the second one; it seems you would spend that decade arguing why Bran should stay dead first, and then move onto the idea that Bran should die and be resurrected in a depreciating way, all the while pointing how him being simply in a coma and getting healed would be a very cheap and easy trick.

LOL, no. If you check all the cliffhanger fake deaths Jon's stands out as one where death is pretty certain - Davos in ACoK, Brienne in AFfC, all those weren't exactly dead yet. The more dubious cases like Bran in AGoT, Arya in ASoS, Tyrion in ADwD, etc. were immediately resolved in the next chapter.

For Jon we have external evidence of his death, we have no reason to believe he is not already dying in chapter (the neck wound seems to have hit a crucial artery, considering how quickly the guy collapses and loses consciousness), no reason to believe some sort of miracle is going to save him, and - most importantly - we have a very plausible and intricate scenario how he can 'survive death' and eventually return into his resurrected body.

Bottom line is this is no longer series where death and resurrection are impossible and/or very rare things - Drogo (perhaps), the dragons, Beric, Catelyn, 'Robert Strong', Coldhands, and the wights in general (not to mention Victarion in a certain sense) have made them into things you could almost call common by now. This is a fantasy series where death doesn't have the same meaning it has in reality.

19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And we know that a person in second life can be pushed out of their familiar. If anyone knows that, he might.

It would surprise me if Borroq knew stuff like that - Varamyr didn't, and he was a very powerful skinchanger, likely more powerful than Borroq who seems to have mastered just a single animal.

I'd expect that restoring Jon to his own body will become one of the key problems in TWoW, not just because this might involve a magical ritual (we know that a skinchanger starting his second life and being stuck in his animal loses his skinchanger ability, just as Varamyr expects that taking over Thistle would have resulted in him losing his ability to skinchanger) nobody south of the Wall is familiar with, but also because Ghost-Jon will be happy with his new animal life, having no desire to return into his present form ... at least by the time they resurrect his dead body.

Jon Snow's funeral is not going to be a high priority on the list of the gang at the Wall, regardless what happens after the assassination. It might be postponed until Stannis returns from Winterfell and restores order. Ned Stark is still waiting for his proper burial at Winterfell...

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For Jon we have external evidence of his death, we have no reason to believe he is not already dying in chapter (the neck wound seems to have hit a crucial artery, considering how quickly the guy collapses and loses consciousness),

This is very inaccurate, clearly you have never seen an arterial bleed. If Jon’s carotid artery had been severed by Wick, the blood wouldn’t “well between his fingers” due to the carotid’s diameter and high pressure. I mean, it’s right there in the text, the blade “barely grazed his skin”. 

“… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is very inaccurate, clearly you have never seen an arterial bleed. If Jon’s carotid artery had been severed by Wick, the blood wouldn’t “well between his fingers” due to the carotid’s diameter and high pressure. I mean, it’s right there in the text, the blade “barely grazed his skin”. 

“… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

The interesting question is not what I have seen, but what George R. R. Martin has seen/knows about arterial bleeds.

It seems to me that his point there is that Jon, being in shock, doesn't realize how hurt he actually is. He doesn't process his neck injury correctly, fails to feel the pain coming with a dagger buried in his belly, etc.

Nobody said anything about arteries being severed, mind you, merely hit or punctured. A blade barely grazing somebody's skin wouldn't have blood welling between the person's fingers a split second after the cut was made. Even minor skin injuries which bleed considerable don't have bleed welling from it immediately. It takes a couple of seconds to get the blood flowing. And in Jon's case the blood welled between his fingers, i.e. there was enough blood between his fingers when he took the hand from his neck and put them in front of his eyes for this to be described as 'welling blood'.

This is also consistent with his clumsy reaction to the attack and his inability to even try to defend himself. A man with his fighting skills should and would have done better if he had still been physically capable of doing so.

The best evidence that Jon is dead is the fact that he collapses as quickly as he does. If he wasn't mortally injured by the time he passes out he wouldn't pass out because he isn't a guy who faints on a regular basis. The gut wound is most likely a lethal wound in Westeros, but it would take him days to die from that, not just seconds. And while it would be painful as hell it wouldn't cause him to faint. The only explanation for him passing out when he does is that he has massive blood loss already, without realizing it being the case. And as the narrator implies at the end the last dagger he felt wasn't the end of the butchery.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would surprise me if Borroq knew stuff like that - Varamyr didn't, and he was a very powerful skinchanger, likely more powerful than Borroq who seems to have mastered just a single animal.

I'm not sure if you're saying that Varamyr didn't know that a person could be pushed out of their second life. If that's the case, then no, Varamyr did know it could be done. He killed Haggon and forced him out of his second life to claim his wolf. When he claimed Orell's eagle, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. 

I wouldn't be surprised if doing that is a big no-no for skinchangers, like trying to skinchange a human is, or eating human flesh, or mating with another animal. And if Varamyr knew what things were considered abomination or the things that skinchangers could do, then I think Borroq who is much older than Varamyr would know too.

[Bullrout]

The change will be more than skin deep.  The Others will bring him back as one of their minions, an ice wight.  Unfortunately for them, his mind will be intact within Ghost.  So from then on, the two will become inseparable.  Jon will never come back as a living, breathing human being.  He comes back as a wight with Ghost carrying his soul around.  The ice wight body will die eventually as it must but his mind will remain within Ghost.  And there it will remain until the wolf himself dies and then Jon will finally be completely dead.

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. If you check all the cliffhanger fake deaths Jon's stands out as one where death is pretty certain - Davos in ACoK, Brienne in AFfC, all those weren't exactly dead yet. The more dubious cases like Bran in AGoT, Arya in ASoS, Tyrion in ADwD, etc. were immediately resolved in the next chapter.

For Jon we have external evidence of his death, we have no reason to believe he is not already dying in chapter (the neck wound seems to have hit a crucial artery, considering how quickly the guy collapses and loses consciousness), no reason to believe some sort of miracle is going to save him, and - most importantly - we have a very plausible and intricate scenario how he can 'survive death' and eventually return into his resurrected body.

Bottom line is this is no longer series where death and resurrection are impossible and/or very rare things - Drogo (perhaps), the dragons, Beric, Catelyn, 'Robert Strong', Coldhands, and the wights in general (not to mention Victarion in a certain sense) have made them into things you could almost call common by now. This is a fantasy series where death doesn't have the same meaning it has in reality.

Oh, good to know that in Westeros, the standard medical procedure is resurrection. To hell with medicine and doctors. Long live the priests. I bet they can and will grow a dick for Theon.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The interesting question is not what I have seen, but what George R. R. Martin has seen/knows about arterial bleeds.

It seems to me that his point there is that Jon, being in shock, doesn't realize how hurt he actually is. He doesn't process his neck injury correctly, fails to feel the pain coming with a dagger buried in his belly, etc.

Nobody said anything about arteries being severed, mind you, merely hit or punctured. A blade barely grazing somebody's skin wouldn't have blood welling between the person's fingers a split second after the cut was made. Even minor skin injuries which bleed considerable don't have bleed welling from it immediately. It takes a couple of seconds to get the blood flowing. And in Jon's case the blood welled between his fingers, i.e. there was enough blood between his fingers when he took the hand from his neck and put them in front of his eyes for this to be described as 'welling blood'.

This is also consistent with his clumsy reaction to the attack and his inability to even try to defend himself. A man with his fighting skills should and would have done better if he had still been physically capable of doing so.

The best evidence that Jon is dead is the fact that he collapses as quickly as he does. If he wasn't mortally injured by the time he passes out he wouldn't pass out because he isn't a guy who faints on a regular basis. The gut wound is most likely a lethal wound in Westeros, but it would take him days to die from that, not just seconds. And while it would be painful as hell it wouldn't cause him to faint. The only explanation for him passing out when he does is that he has massive blood loss already, without realizing it being the case. And as the narrator implies at the end the last dagger he felt wasn't the end of the butchery.

About the neck wound you are completly wrong and it is pretty obvious...

First, any head injury bleeds a lot. And I mean A LOT. Second, Jon doesn t experience problems breathing or speaking that a severe neck injury causes. He only feels blood loss that corresponds to a slight cut to the neck. 

 

And the other problem. Jon is in a very cold place and falling into snow. This leads to slow temperatures, slower heart rithim and therefore the blood loss will be much less than it would be in normal circumstances. It is extremely unlikely that Jon will die any time soon from 4 daggers given that his body temperature will be extremely low and some of his wounds might even be burned from the cold. 

 

In regards to Jon fainting and his clumsiness, the cold and bloodloss can do that without having a mortal neck injury... He was stabbed 3 times... He isn t the terminator... And I wouldn t discount someone poisoning him... 

[Lollygag]

Jon isn't dead, he'll only be in a coma for a bit while stuck in Ghost.

As for blood "welling", it's used for both light bleeding as where Jon says only a grazing, or with major bleeds, so the use of that word alone doesn't mean much without context. That Jon says he's only grazed (he'd know the difference by now with all of the sparring) and the lack of blood spray or feeling any blood running down tells us that Jon isn't bleeding much at all.

Uses of welling blood where bleeding is minor.

 

"Here, girl." Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

 

Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers.

 

Varys lifted the knife with exaggerated delicacy and ran a thumb along its edge. Blood welled, and he let out a squeal and dropped the dagger back on the table.

 

Uses of welling blood where bleeding is significant.

 

Syrio ducked under his blade and thrust upward. The guardsman fell screaming as blood welled from the wet red hole where his left eye had been.

 

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar's fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

 

The parallels with Bran really stand out. We see Bran in the coma through Jon's eyes rather than through either Ned or Cat which would have been more natural choices. This stood out to me on the first read as an intentional connection being made between Bran and Jon here though I didn't know why at the time. It turns out both Bran and Jon were felled by Lannister henchmen and blades were involved. Cersei had a hit out on Jon and Marsh was trying to control Jon rather than kill him which only came about as a desperate and not-entirely sane last resort. Note that in ADWD, Jon is mentioned as drinking a lot of wine on par with Cersei, but without the hints as to Cersei's abuse of it. I think Jon has been getting a steady dose of sweetsleep in his wine. The only other character where the reader gets to feel the effects of sweetsleep is...Bran. Note that while sweetsleep inhibits dreams, it's pointedly mentioned that it enhances warging. Sweetsleep on Wick's knife is the only explanation that I can find after bleeding has been ruled out that explains Jon being fine one second and incapacitated the next. Two less-than-warriorly stewards would be smart to dose the much more skilled Jon if they intended to take him out. Add to that Jon is wearing a lot of layers due to the cold and stewards with daggers are trying to penetrate that which means the stabbings can't be very deep.

It’s mentioned 3 times that Wick was as skinny as a spear so the reader should take note and then there's the informal rule that if GRRM mentions things 3 times, they're important. Spears are associated with poison in the series, especially through the Martells. Wick's skinniness is also important as it's a red flag: Wick’s wrist which Jon was able to strong-arm one moment wasn’t much thicker than the sword hilt which Jon couldn’t manage to grasp in the next moment.

 Also of note, if Jon was indeed poisoned with sweetsleep, his adrenaline levels and blood pressure would have been low during the worst of the attack and along with the severe cold, this would have limited the amount he would have bled out. Adrenalin and high blood pressure are great in a fight, but if you’re injured significantly, it just kills you all the faster. Add to that Summer kept Bran alive and ADWD repeatedly made clear that Jon and Ghost had become so connected that Jon sometimes couldn't tell his own senses from Ghost's.

 

Juxaposing ACOK Bran I where Bran is given sweetsleep and ADWD Jon XIII:

Here, we see Bran being given sweetsleep and Jon hypothetically being given sweetsleep through the knife cut on his neck. They are both clear-headed in the following moments.

Bran: Ooo-ooo-oooooo. Ooo-ooo-ooooooooooooooooo." The guardsman retreated. When he came back, Maester Luwin was with him, all in grey, his chain tight about his neck. "Bran, those beasts make sufficient noise without your help." He crossed the room and put his hand on the boy's brow. "The hour grows late, you ought to be fast asleep." "I'm talking to the wolves." Bran brushed the hand away.

The maester surrendered. "As you will, child." With a look that was part grief and part disgust, he left the bedchamber. Howling lost its savor once Bran was alone.

The door to his bedchamber opened. Maester Luwin was carrying a green jar, and this time Osha and Hayhead came with him. "I've made you a sleeping draught, Bran." Osha scooped him up in her bony arms. She was very tall for a woman, and wiry strong. She bore him effortlessly to his bed. "This will give you dreamless sleep," Maester Luwin said as he pulled the stopper from the jar. "Sweet, dreamless sleep." "It will?" Bran said, wanting to believe.

Bran drank. The potion was thick and chalky, but there was honey in it, so it went down easy. "Come the morn, you'll feel better." Luwin gave Bran a smile and a pat as he took his leave. Osha lingered behind. "Is it the wolf dreams again?" Bran nodded.

Jon: He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife …" … away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?" "For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me.

Bran and Jon both become disoriented very suddenly.

Bran: You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back." "The gods?" he murmured, drowsy already. Osha's face grew blurry and grey. Sweet, dreamless sleep, Bran thought.

Jon: Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard. Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow.

Bran and Jon both soon pass out.

Bran: Yet when the darkness closed over him, he found himself in the godswood, moving silently beneath green-grey sentinels and gnarled oaks as old as time. I am walking, he thought, exulting. Part of him knew that it was only a dream, but even the dream of walking was better than the truth of his bedchamber, walls and ceiling and door.

Jon: He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

 

 

As for how Jon changes, I don't see any point to him being a wight. RLJ has no personal meaning if a wight learns about his history, nor can a wight make RLJ plot-relevant as no one's going to try to crown the dude who starts to look like Beric does now. There's a reason Cat's not a POV anymore: she's no longer a true character in that she can change, evolve, devolve, learn... all of the good stuff that makes characters interesting. Some argue that Ghost will preserve Jon's soul, but that would only work if we're talking a few hours. Jojen warns us that the wolf begins to consume the man if he goes much longer than that.

Jon is deeply and almost pathologically homesick. Can't blame him. He's been betrayed which will make distrustful. As we see through his talk with Tyrion in AGOT and also his memories which bring about a berserker rage, Jon represses things thoroughly but they're coming back up. We also have Jojen's warning to Bran about spending too much time in Summer, with too much meaning just hours:

ASOS Bran I

"You were gone too long." Jojen Reed was thirteen, only four years older than Bran. Jojen wasn't much bigger either, no more than two inches or maybe three, but he had a solemn way of talking that made him seem older and wiser than he really was. At Winterfell, Old Nan had dubbed him "little grandfather."

Bran frowned at him. "I wanted to eat."

"Meera will be back soon with supper."

"I'm sick of frogs." Meera was a frogeater from the Neck, so Bran couldn't really blame her for catching so many frogs, he supposed, but even so . . . "I wanted to eat the deer." For a moment he remembered the taste of it, the blood and the raw rich meat, and his mouth watered. I won the fight for it. I won.

"Did you mark the trees?"

Bran flushed. Jojen was always telling him to do things when he opened his third eye and put on Summer's skin. To claw the bark of a tree, to catch a rabbit and bring it back in his jaws uneaten, to push some rocks in a line. Stupid things. "I forgot," he said.

"You always forget."

It was true. He meant to do the things that Jojen asked, but once he was a wolf they never seemed important. There were always things to see and things to smell, a whole green world to hunt. And he could run! There was nothing better than running, unless it was running after prey. "I was a prince, Jojen," he told the older boy. "I was the prince of the woods."

"You are a prince," Jojen reminded him softly. "You remember, don't you? Tell me who you are."

"You know." Jojen was his friend and his teacher, but sometimes Bran just wanted to hit him.

"I want you to say the words. Tell me who you are."

"Bran," he said sullenly. Bran the Broken. "Brandon Stark." The cripple boy. "The Prince of Winterfell." Of Winterfell burned and tumbled, its people scattered and slain. The glass gardens were smashed, and hot water gushed from the cracked walls to steam beneath the sun. How can you be the prince of someplace you might never see again?

"And who is Summer?" Jojen prompted.

"My direwolf." He smiled. "Prince of the green."

"Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?"

"Two," he sighed, "and one." He hated Jojen when he got stupid like this. At Winterfell he wanted me to dream my wolf dreams, and now that I know how he's always calling me back.

"Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer's skin."

 

AGOT Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times.

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, divica said:

First, any head injury bleeds a lot. And I mean A LOT. Second, Jon doesn t experience problems breathing or speaking that a severe neck injury causes. He only feels blood loss that corresponds to a slight cut to the neck. 

Corroborating this. Once hit my forehead against a sharp corner. Man that bled immensely!

If a blood vessel coming from the heart had been knicked there would be no welling, but several quick burts of blood spouting around like a fire hose.

[divica]

18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon isn't dead, he'll only be in a coma for a bit while stuck in Ghost.

Given Mel's vision (the wolf, man, wolf, man) I think he will be warging into and out of ghost several times as if he was feverish. 

Probably as you said this will mimick bran discovering his powers. 

 

[Mordred]

21 hours ago, Makk said:

Has Melisandre ever resurrected anyone? I'm not convinced she is even able to or will be the one to bring Jon back, I think just claiming she had other powers while Thoros did not is not evidence to support this assertion. It is possible she could burn Shireen to do it and that would be quite a different ritual so who knows. Also note that Beric's and Catelyns resurrections were a bit different as Beric actually passed on to bring Catelyn back. I personally think it will be Catelyn who brings Jon back but very few people think that is likely.

The White Walkers are in the vicinity.  It will be they who will resurrect Jon.  They are good at recycling dead bodies. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Jon ain't dead. He was cosplaying as Josh York getting vampire bit by the bad guy Damon Julian. Josh was near drained as Damon fed on him, but he was never truly dead.

The "ice dragon" Other took a bite of Jon, but there is nothing that says he he definitively dead. Fire is a hungry, jealous god, as the stories LITTTTerally tells us That is the cold that Jon felt.

I've been around this block a zillion times now and GRRM uses "blood gushing" at least 8 times I can remember, including Waymar, and none of them are the killing wound. If that description was to be a killing wound, I would expect something grittier like "gushing", a "torrent of blood", "spurting", etc.

That said, I suspect Jon will wake with breathing problems for a while and IF there is a physical change, maybe maaaaybe a white streak in his hair.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Mordred said:

The White Walkers are in the vicinity.  It will be they who will resurrect Jon.  They are good at recycling dead bodies. 

This is nonsense.

[divica]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That said, I suspect Jon will wake with breathing problems for a while and IF there is a physical change, maybe maaaaybe a white streak in his hair.

If his apearance changes it will be related to ghost dying. It would be funny if his hair changes to white because of ghost and people end up arguing if it is related to him being a targ.

And if jon is suposed to ride a dragon I can see grrm killing ghost as a simbol of the end of jon's inocense and the beguining of his targness.

[Lollygag]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

If his apearance changes it will be related to ghost dying. It would be funny if his hair changes to white because of ghost and people end up arguing if it is related to him being a targ.

And if jon is suposed to ride a dragon I can see grrm killing ghost as a simbol of the end of jon's inocense and the beguining of his targness.

I suspect this may be correct. I don't think there's a real Azor Ahai in the story, but how much someone will give up for the cause will be a big part of the upcoming books. Only a few paragraphs after Jon talks about reading the Jade Compendium he talks about how Ghost is part of him - a Nissa Nissa sort of comparision.

ADWD Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

"… would be a fine thing on the Wall." Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves. "A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold. I'll be curious to see how his Lightbringer behaves in battle. Thank you for the wine. Ghost, with me." Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak and pulled at the door. The white wolf followed him back into the night.

The armory was dark and silent. Jon nodded to the guards before making his way past the silent racks of spears to his rooms. He hung his sword belt from a peg beside the door and his cloak from another. When he peeled off his gloves, his hands were stiff and cold. It took him a long while to get the candles lit. Ghost curled up on his rug and went to sleep, but Jon could not rest yet. The scarred pinewood table was covered with maps of the Wall and the lands beyond, a roster of rangers, and a letter from the Shadow Tower written in Ser Denys Mallister's flowing hand.

He read the letter from the Shadow Tower again, sharpened a quill, and unstoppered a pot of thick black ink. He wrote two letters, the first to Ser Denys, the second to Cotter Pyke. Both of them had been hounding him for more men. Halder and Toad he dispatched west to the Shadow Tower, Grenn and Pyp to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. The ink would not flow properly, and all his words seemed curt and crude and clumsy, yet he persisted.

When he finally put the quill down, the room was dim and chilly, and he could feel its walls closing in. Perched above the window, the Old Bear's raven peered down at him with shrewd black eyes. My last friend, Jon thought ruefully. And I had best outlive you, or you'll eat my face as well. Ghost did not count. Ghost was closer than a friend. Ghost was part of him.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not sure if you're saying that Varamyr didn't know that a person could be pushed out of their second life. If that's the case, then no, Varamyr did know it could be done. He killed Haggon and forced him out of his second life to claim his wolf. When he claimed Orell's eagle, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. 

I meant that Borroq most likely has no clue how a skinchanger living his second life can return in his resurrected body. I doubt Coldhands could just 'skinchange back' into his original wightified body, breaking the hold the Others had over it that way.

Instead I'd assume it was a difficult process involving some difficult magic to break the control of the Others and exert the spirit of a skinchanger from his animal to put it back into a mortal body.

And speaking about abominations chances are pretty low that Borroq - if he was as conventional and limited as Haggon - would entertain the notion or help with a plan of turning an animal back into a human being - which is what they would do with Jon-Ghost if they forced his spirit out of the wolf and back into a human body.

7 hours ago, Mithras said:

Oh, good to know that in Westeros, the standard medical procedure is resurrection. To hell with medicine and doctors. Long live the priests. I bet they can and will grow a dick for Theon.

LOL. If the nonexisting medics at the Watch are going to save Jon he would be hopelessly lost. Even trained maesters cannot heal gut wounds, as George celebrated in FaB with the agonizing deaths of both Erryk Cargyll and Marston Waters.

Jon's only rescue is magic, anyway, and if it is magic then the author can and will go the entire way - resurrection magic is more fun than healing magic, especially if healing magic would mean Jon would look like Victarion all over once Melisandre was done 'healing his wounds'.

6 hours ago, divica said:

First, any head injury bleeds a lot. And I mean A LOT. Second, Jon doesn t experience problems breathing or speaking that a severe neck injury causes. He only feels blood loss that corresponds to a slight cut to the neck. 

He doesn't talk all that much after that first cut, does he?

6 hours ago, divica said:

And the other problem. Jon is in a very cold place and falling into snow. This leads to slow temperatures, slower heart rithim and therefore the blood loss will be much less than it would be in normal circumstances. It is extremely unlikely that Jon will die any time soon from 4 daggers given that his body temperature will be extremely low and some of his wounds might even be burned from the cold. 

Nobody said only four daggers hit him. It could have been dozens. I didn't say he bled to death, I said his blood loss seems to me what led to him fainting. I actually think the daggers killed him, not the blood loss.

6 hours ago, divica said:

In regards to Jon fainting and his clumsiness, the cold and bloodloss can do that without having a mortal neck injury... He was stabbed 3 times... He isn t the terminator... And I wouldn t discount someone poisoning him... 

If the first thing was just the minor cut he thinks it was then his clumsiness and fainting makes no sense. The gut wound shouldn't make him clumsy, and the stab between the shoulderblades - which could also be lethal - happens when he is already collapsing.

1 hour ago, divica said:

If his apearance changes it will be related to ghost dying. It would be funny if his hair changes to white because of ghost and people end up arguing if it is related to him being a targ.

And if jon is suposed to ride a dragon I can see grrm killing ghost as a simbol of the end of jon's inocense and the beguining of his targness.

The wolf has to be put down for the man to get out of there, that much seems clear to me.

But that won't be a real or meaningful sacrifice.

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't talk all that much after that first cut, does he?

But he does talk and doesn t mention having problems doing it. And there is no problem breathing. IT doesn t fit with a severe neck wound. It sounds exactly like the oposite...

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said only four daggers hit him. It could have been dozens. I didn't say he bled to death, I said his blood loss seems to me what led to him fainting. I actually think the daggers killed him, not the blood loss.

People don t die from daggers. They die from blodloss, organ failure, etc...  Whatever problem jon might face will be minimized by his body being in a very low temperature. Unless we have a fatal atack like a knife to the heart or decapitation it is very unlikely that he will have a fast death.

And I am pretty sure the book said 4 daggers hit him. Otherwise there could be a line " and he didn t even feel the following daggers" instead of the 4th...

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If the first thing was just the minor cut he thinks it was then his clumsiness and fainting makes no sense. The gut wound shouldn't make him clumsy, and the stab between the shoulderblades - which could also be lethal - happens when he is already collapsing.

Poison is the most likely explanation. No neck wound would cause fainting from bloodloss within seconds without causing other simptoms first. Like dificulty in breathing, in talking and probably pain. Jon doesn t experience any of these...

And the stab wound between the shoulder blades might be lethal or the least problematic because it could have hit bone and not hurt anything. We don t even know how problematic the second stab wound was because we don t know what jon was wearing. Imagine he had 10cm thickness in clothes (wich given the weather isn t that strange) then a dagger could never get very deep.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The wolf has to be put down for the man to get out of there, that much seems clear to me.

But that won't be a real or meaningful sacrifice.

Are you really saying that ghost dying won t be a real and meanigfull sacrífice to jon? Realy!?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

But he does talk and doesn t mention having problems doing it. And there is no problem breathing. IT doesn t fit with a severe neck wound. It sounds exactly like the oposite...

Not to me. Jon faints a couple of seconds later, so I'd say he does have breathing problems. This is a scene where a guy is so shocked that he is killed that he cannot process what's happening.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

People don t die from daggers. They die from blodloss, organ failure, etc...  Whatever problem jon might face will be minimized by his body being in a very low temperature. Unless we have a fatal atack like a knife to the heart or decapitation it is very unlikely that he will have a fast death.

Oh, you can die from daggers, if the right organs are hit. And chances are pretty good that the third pierced the lung, so Jon might suffocate, drown in his own blood, that kind of thing.

I'm not saying it has to be a fast death, though. I'm happy with him dying in half an hour in what would have been ten minutes in the Sands of Dorne. It doesn't really matter how long it takes him to die since any magical stuff which might save him from death would take more time and prepatation - not that there is any reason there would be some sort of 'magical Jon Snow rescue express plot device' on the way.

And this whole focus on a guy with severe wounds being saved by the cold is ridiculous, if you ask me. Severe blood loss and low temperatures don't go well together, just as living and cold temperatures also don't go well together.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

And I am pretty sure the book said 4 daggers hit him. Otherwise there could be a line " and he didn t even feel the following daggers" instead of the 4th...

There doesn't have to be a line. It closes with him not feeling the fourth dagger, not with a 'confirmation' that he was only hit by four daggers. And we can expect that Marsh and company finish what they started. Nobody is going to stop them, at least not before they land a dozen or more stabs. Especially while we have no idea how many men have gathered around Jon and how many are stabbing him. In fact, I'd not be surprised if we learned he was stabbed more than four times while he was yet conscious to, perhaps, better explain why he fainted.

If this was a 'rescue in the last moment' scene we would have a hint like Brienne's last word, Davos possibly swimming to safety beneath the inferno, something like that. It wouldn't be as clear as it is there. If Ghost came to help him - sort of like Brienne saw help coming when Biter was about to eat her alive -, if he saw something else before he fainted, then one would have a case there.

But the way it is the only life Jon will have for the time being is his second life, not the first. Which still doesn't mean he is *dead* the way people who are killed should be dead - and are in the real world.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Poison is the most likely explanation. No neck wound would cause fainting from bloodloss within seconds without causing other simptoms first. Like dificulty in breathing, in talking and probably pain. Jon doesn t experience any of these...

This is literature. We don't get a complete picture. We also don't learn anything about the pain from the gut wound or the shoulderblades dagger. Yet we can assume they hurt.

Poison isn't an explanation at all, since there is no reason to believe nor any hint given that Jon was poisoned.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

And the stab wound between the shoulder blades might be lethal or the least problematic because it could have hit bone and not hurt anything. We don t even know how problematic the second stab wound was because we don t know what jon was wearing. Imagine he had 10cm thickness in clothes (wich given the weather isn t that strange) then a dagger could never get very deep.

Then Jon/the narrator wouldn't have written that the dagger was buried in the belly but in a lot of cloth. I mean, seriously, this is an assassination scene, not a scene where a couple of guys play a mock scene of a fake assassination in a rehearsal.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Are you really saying that ghost dying won t be a real and meanigfull sacrífice to jon? Realy!?

Of course, since Ghost isn't a human being but a wolf. He is a pet, not Jon's great love. Azor Ahai wouldn't have gotten his Lightbringer if he had tried to harden it the blood of his pet.

[The Map Guy]

Jon is dead guys, give it a rest!

Like Lord Varys said, it would just be a cheap trick putting Jon in a coma.

How does Jon being in a coma for ~half of TWOW going to push the story forward at the Wall? Who's POV would be at the Wall then? Mel, a priestess of a religion that can resurrect the dead?

If Jon gets killed and Mel resurrects him quickly, Jon will be back in action real soon in TWOW ... no need to wait for months in a coma. And the quicker Mel works, the less Jon will change as a fire-wight.

How does making Jon (R+L) being a fire-wight push the story forward? Well he may get super powers!! ... immunity from turning into an ice-wight after he dies again!

[divica]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to me. Jon faints a couple of seconds later, so I'd say he does have breathing problems. This is a scene where a guy is so shocked that he is killed that he cannot process what's happening.

Where is the relation between fainting and problems breathing? People faint because of several reasons. And we are in jon's head so we know he doesn t have problems breathing, talking and doesn t have acute pain that a severe hound causes in his neck. And jon is so shocked that he disarmed 1 dude and tried to take his weapon out... He is pretty aware of things...

Just because you want it to be a deadly wound doesn t make it so. All evidence points the other way...

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, you can die from daggers, if the right organs are hit. And chances are pretty good that the third pierced the lung, so Jon might suffocate, drown in his own blood, that kind of thing.

I'm not saying it has to be a fast death, though. I'm happy with him dying in half an hour in what would have been ten minutes in the Sands of Dorne. It doesn't really matter how long it takes him to die since any magical stuff which might save him from death would take more time and prepatation - not that there is any reason there would be some sort of 'magical Jon Snow rescue express plot device' on the way.

And this whole focus on a guy with severe wounds being saved by the cold is ridiculous, if you ask me. Severe blood loss and low temperatures don't go well together, just as living and cold temperatures also don't go well together.

As you said nobody's cause of death is daggers… And given that mel knew he was going to be in danger of dying there are very good probabilities of some magic rescue… The longer he remains alive the higher are his chances of being healed.

Seriously, you just decided that jon is dead and ignore everything else that doesn t suit that narrative...

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There doesn't have to be a line. It closes with him not feeling the fourth dagger, not with a 'confirmation' that he was only hit by four daggers. And we can expect that Marsh and company finish what they started. Nobody is going to stop them, at least not before they land a dozen or more stabs. Especially while we have no idea how many men have gathered around Jon and how many are stabbing him. In fact, I'd not be surprised if we learned he was stabbed more than four times while he was yet conscious to, perhaps, better explain why he fainted.

If this was a 'rescue in the last moment' scene we would have a hint like Brienne's last word, Davos possibly swimming to safety beneath the inferno, something like that. It wouldn't be as clear as it is there. If Ghost came to help him - sort of like Brienne saw help coming when Biter was about to eat her alive -, if he saw something else before he fainted, then one would have a case there.

But the way it is the only life Jon will have for the time being is his second life, not the first. Which still doesn't mean he is *dead* the way people who are killed should be dead - and are in the real world.

You do know jon is surrounded by people right? That the wildling he named trainer for the new recruits is pretty close because he was trying to calm wun wun? There are dozens of people that might intervene after they realize jon is being attacked. We are talking about the lord comander being attacked! Even queensmen might want to save the LC. Hell, the fucking giant might try to help jon because if you read the story you would know they spend a lot of time talking...

Talking to you sometimes feels like you don t know the story. You decide something and ignore everything else. Even if people point out what you are forgeting you just continue ignoring it.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is literature. We don't get a complete picture. We also don't learn anything about the pain from the gut wound or the shoulderblades dagger. Yet we can assume they hurt.

Poison isn't an explanation at all, since there is no reason to believe nor any hint given that Jon was poisoned.

This is literature, so if a character receives a fatal wound he describes it as a scratch? No pain or other efects? It is a scratch, faint and death… Does this sound good to you?

Poison isn t na explanation because it doesn t fit your wishes. We have a neck wound described as a scratch that doesn t cause pain, breathing problems or talking problems but that for some reason you know was very severe against all logic. Then we have jon that doesn t feel dizzy, have double vision, weakness, trouble standing or other common simptoms I relate to bloodloss. His hands became stiff and clumsy We can justify the stiffness with the cold, but if jon's only other simptoms are clumsiness then it just is much more likely related to poison than bloodlosss. We have no reason to believe the first stab wound caused a severe bloodloss but on the other hand a scratch of a poisoned blade can perfectly explain his simptoms...

Between going against what is described in the book and looking for an explanation that jon doesn t contradict what is more likely?

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then Jon/the narrator wouldn't have written that the dagger was buried in the belly but in a lot of cloth. I mean, seriously, this is an assassination scene, not a scene where a couple of guys play a mock scene of a fake assassination in a rehearsal.

It is obvious that the dagger stabed jon. But given the clothes he must be wearing it should also be ovious that a big part of the length of the daggers couldn t harm him. Even in the show we see the kind of clothes people are wearing in that climate. they are very thick… It is once again a pain that it doesn t fit with the scenario you created but the stabings just can t be as severe as they would be in normal situations...

And we aren t talking about a well tought assassination. This was a desperate attack done by stewards that aren t fighters. 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, since Ghost isn't a human being but a wolf. He is a pet, not Jon's great love. Azor Ahai wouldn't have gotten his Lightbringer if he had tried to harden it the blood of his pet.

seriously? is there a point in comenting this?