Am I the only one who despises Cregan Stark?

[Hodor the Articulate]

Cregan was an asshole. But also, fuck the Greens.

[frenin]

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

That was throwing a bone. It's not like the Lads or Valeman were closely tied to any person who were put on "trial" by Cregan. Jeyne Arryn and Rivermen would be just fine whether Corlys' head was mounted on a spike or not. It was a secondary question compared to big problems like continuation of the war and post-war reconstruction

They wanted to end the war, that war simply doesn't end with Corlys dead, the Velaryons would want revenge and with that other Houses would want their due. Jeyne Arryn and the Lads being just fine just doesn't add up with what we're told.

 

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On one point Lord Cregan remained adamant, however; the king’s killers must not go unpunished. Unworthy as King Aegon II might have been, his murder was high treason, and those responsible must answer for it. So fierce was his demeanor, so unyielding, that the others gave way before him. “Let it be on your head, Stark,” Kermit Tully said. “I want no part of this, but I will not have it said that Riverrun stood in the way of justice.”

There is little reason for it to be a trouble at all, if they just didn't give a damn yet they did.

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Now that is a distortion.

Tyland Lannister is specifically noted as conciliatory figure, publicly "forgetting" about nobility's previous party affiliations. To pretend that Cregan could lead the court (or have Regents trust him) the same way as Tyland despite being his polar opposite is quite disingenuous.

Unwin's rise to power was specifically ties to a unique situation - his fellow regents were all dead, or departed, or sick. There were two guys remaining - Unwin and Munkun. And Munkun was a maester. This does not work with three guys around, so hypothetical Hand Cregan would not have the same freedom as OTL Hand Unwin.

Ofc it's a distortion. For starters you assume that without Cregan's step back the structure of power is the same.

- Tyland Lannister was shrewd, Cregan was charismatic and Cregan's only problems were the war and punishing Aegon's murder. Once solved that, there is little reason to believe there would be problems. 

- We're outright told that the regents didn't care much about their job.

 

 

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Very quickly Ser Tyland achieved an unspoken dominance over Leowyn Corbray, of whom Mushroom says, “He was thick of neck and thick of wit, but never have I known a man to fart so loudly.” By law, both the Hand and the Lord Protector were subject to the authority of the council of regents, but as the days passed and the moon turned and turned again, the regents convened less and less often, whilst the tireless, blind, hooded Tyland Lannister gathered more and more power to himself

Sure seems like a vigilante...

 

Unwin's rise was much of the same, the regents simply couldn't bother to curtail his power. And it's not like Cregan it's not described as an unrealistically imposing figure.

 

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Nothing says "no interest in the south" like performing a coup, placing the King under house arrest and trying to command fellow lords to do your bidding.

Cregan is quite honest about why he acts like he acts and almost none of his actions, Black Aly..., contradict them.

- He place the King under House arrest because he didn't trust the court. 

- He made a coup especifically to arrest Aegon's murderers.

- He tried to command fellow Lords to do his bidding because he didn't think Aegon's throne assured.

 

Once it was clear that the rest of the Blacks would not support his warmongering ideas and they accept the trial over Aegon's murderers, he quite literally had nothing to do in the south.

 

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

I'm similarly skeptical about Gyldayn's ability to measure happiness of a dead man a century before Gyldayn's birth.

Sure, he was crying that day and Unwin was laughing. One would assume that Glydan and Yandel are using primary sources but... Well, distortion. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

I hear the sound of goal posts moving.

Yours i suppose.

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Lads, Valemen and other did not want Cregan to lead them. Having Cregan on the council of six other regents would be splendid for other six. Cregan would not be able to tell them what to do. And since he was at odds with so many powerful people, it would mean de-facto powerlessness. An ineffectual regent Cregan would be a benefit to other regents - their share of political pie would be greater for it.

False, otherwise they would not have offered him the position of regent not Glydan would've said that Cregan could've remained Hand and Regent.

The lads, Valemen and others did not want Cregan to keep warmongering. Otherwise they are proved to be just fine, especially after Cregan bethrothed Aly Blackwood.

Cregan both as Hand and regent would be able to tell them what to do. Nor Cregan was at odds with so many powerful people, they only disagreed in two things, Aegon's murderers and the war, the rest ofc something you want to imagine because for some reason you hate the dude.

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

It's not like they could foresee Regents' mortality rate. Those guys were dropping like flies.

Cregan on the other hand had no interest in such an arrangement, so he took the bones thrown to him and left.

- They could foresee their own interest however.

- Cregan stepped back before the arrangements were done. He served as Hand for a day and then wash his hands.

And mind you, Gyldan wasn't talking about Cregan sharing the regency but him being the sole regent.  Cregan handed the power over, before the total future power structure was divised.

 

15 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Of course he comes out very decently - as a perfect picture of an opportunistic scumbag

No, as a hard man who had little interest in the south bar to promote his own interests in the North, Spare mouths.

No opportunistic scumbag stays Hand for just a day.

 

 

15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The late Jasper Wylde and Grover Tully (joined by the overwhelming majority in the Great Councils he had participated in) had both argued that the male succeeds under Andal inheritance laws. That would be Aegon III. People "saying nothing" weren't fighting and didn't actually have a rival candidate.

And had they been listened there would've not been war and how is a dead man going to conditione whether three is war or not.

 

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What would you think of simply firing him?

As wise as simply firing Varys.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

She attempts to do so in Dorne because Dorne has different inheritance laws. Dorne wasn't part of the Seven Kingdoms back then.

Also Myrcella isn't a simpleton

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also Myrcella isn't a simpleton

Jaehaera was not a confirmed simpleton. She rarely spoke, but so what? Aegon III was hardly better. The way she is presented in the Regency material makes it clear she knew enough about the people around her to be afraid as hell for her life, just as Queen Alicent thought she was smart to understand that she was to murder her cousin-husband the king at her behest (and she was, considering that this prospect terrified her, too).

Munkun noting he had to calm her nerves using sweetsleep during the coronation/wedding also indicates she was very much aware of her surroundings. She may have been autistic - like Archmaester Vaegon and Aerys I and, perhaps, also Aegon III to a point, but that doesn't mean her mental faculties/intelligence were affected.

And again - as is said when the regents discuss the succession at Tyland Lannister's behest, in the eyes of many Jaehaera Targaryen had a better claim to the Iron Throne than Rhaenyra's son, Aegon III. She was the child of the king, not the get of the pretender. They thought she made a poor choice for an heir to Aegon III, certainly, but that was at a time when the Realm had agreed that Aegon III was their new king.

Cregan Stark's hypothetical scenario is that Jaehaera Targaryen would be the perfect pretender for such people who do not agree with the murder of Aegon II and the rise of Aegon III - which was coup d'etat by a bunch of traitors who had been jumping on the band wagon of the victorious Blacks.

As it stands, only Cregan was a warmonger after the murder of Aegon II - but there was no guarantee that this would be the case as Gyldayn makes clear that the certainty the Dance was over is a knowledge that came with hindsight, i.e. a construction/conclusion by historians. And especially the Hightower desire for vengeance was pretty strong (and they are said to have had the means, unlike any of the other Greens), and we don't really know whether Lady Sam really was the reason why Lord Lyonel changed his mind. Munkun tells us it was because the Tyrells threatened to harm Lyonel's younger brother Garmund, who was a page/hostage at Highgarden, if he would not comply.