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Statues, Monuments, and When to Take Down or Leave Up Ones Dedicated To Flawed Historical Figures


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Just now, DMC said:

What opinion have I expressed that was in any way racist?  Honestly, tell me where I said anything even remotely racism.  That didn't seem to be your objection - definitely wasn't about content - it was about me being flippant or dismissive.  Which is why this smacks of being personal.  My opinion is not any more "dismissive" than plenty of people that expressed their opinions on the first couple pages of this thread.  In fact, I'm more in favor than many of such opinions expressed in terms of abolishing statues. 

My question was simply where does it end because almost all monuments - and even most buildings - are fundamentally racist to begin with.  If you want to argue that point, great!  But you don't seem to want to do that.

If that’s what your point was it is NOT what you said. You said to indigenous people all public buildings and statues are offensive. That’s a racist and inaccurate statement that paints indigenous people as petty complainers- whether that was your intent or not. That’s what I take umbrage with and it isn’t on me that you can’t reread your own statements trying to get (what should be glaringly obvious) where it’s a blunder. 
 

I don’t care whether you or anyone here disagrees with me about removing statues celebrating those who have committed genocide and slavery and rape. I care what you said about indigenous people and what we care about (according to your skewed and unasked for perception). 

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2 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

If that’s what your point was it is NOT what you said.

 

2 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I care what you said about indigenous people and what we care about

So...you're telling me it's racist in your view for me to point out the logistics of combating all the different monuments or buildings that are rooted in racism?  And why exactly is this a huge point for you?  Again, there are plenty of people on the first page I could quote right now that question even taking down statues.  I disagree - I think they should be taken down.  But because I presented my argument in a smartass way with a link, which is pretty much my way, you're saying I'm somehow the one who's being racist?  Ok, enjoy yourself then.

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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

So...you're telling me it's racist in your view for me to point out the logistics of combating all the different monuments or buildings that are rooted in racism?  And why exactly is this a huge point for you?  Again, there are plenty of people on the first page I could quote right now that question even taking down statues.  I disagree - I think they should be taken down.  But because I presented my argument in a smartass way with a link, which is pretty much my way, you're saying I'm somehow the one who's being racist?  Ok, enjoy yourself then.

I told you exactly what was racist and other people in the thread also pointed out you were out of line. You are changing the goalposts, which is pretty much your way also when confronted with the things you said. 
 

For you to say that to indigenous people, all public buildings and monuments are offensive- is at best racially insensitive and at worst racist. Since you keep justifying it instead of being hey sorry that was hurtful, I’ll try not to generalize or belittle your race in the future- it’s looking more worst case than best case. Whatever point you are trying to make in typing that sentence- find a way that isn’t shitty to do it. It’s not a lot to ask of you, it really really is not.

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2 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Since you keep justifying it instead of being hey sorry that was hurtful,

I literally clarified I didn't mean to be flippant or dismissive.  If you want specifically a sorry, sure, I'm sorry.  Just get off my ass and stop acting like the judge, jury, and executioner of racism on this forum.  You're worse than Kal when he gets on me.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

I literally clarified I didn't mean to be flippant or dismissive.  If you want specifically a sorry, sure, I'm sorry.  Just get off my ass and stop acting like the judge, jury, and executioner of racism on this forum.  You're worse than Kal when he gets on me.

Ya know, you should probably just take a step back here. 

For starters, even if you didn't mean to be flippant or dismissive, you're being told you came off that way. That's something you can learn from! Take the advice. 

Second, when BIPOC call you out on your shit, they are doing you a favor. They don't have to try and educate you. They don't have to spend even one second of time telling you how you screwed up. If they are, they're actually caring in some way for you. Take that, go with it, learn from it. 

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14 minutes ago, DMC said:

I literally clarified I didn't mean to be flippant or dismissive.  If you want specifically a sorry, sure, I'm sorry.  Just get off my ass and stop acting like the judge, jury, and executioner of racism on this forum.  You're worse than Kal when he gets on me.

You said you weren’t trying to be flippant or dismissive in that you were telling me I was wrong to take it that way while you were being flippant and dismissive of me personally. That’s not the same as realizing you said a fucked up thing and correcting it, it’s being defensive and immature about your mistake. 
 

And no, I will not lay off at all. If you say something racist about my race in a space I occupy I am going to go after you to make sure you are aware that this isn’t shit to be tolerated.  I have done so politely so far, which is by no means the only way I’d be justified in reacting. And you are being a gigantic fucking baby if you think me telling you you made a racist remark and responding to you asking how what you said is racist is me being “judge, jury, and executioner” You can be edgy and say edgelord bullshit about race, but then you forfeit the right to be sensitive about how people react.

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11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

Second, when BIPOC call you out on your shit, they are doing you a favor. They don't have to try and educate you. They don't have to spend even one second of time telling you how you screwed up. If they are, they're actually caring in some way for you. Take that, go with it, learn from it. 

How does one precisely learn something, if they are not educated about the mistake they made. This whole "It's not my job to educate you" thing that comes from the left truly annoys me. How does exactly the left win converts to its cause when it feels it doesn't have to explain anything and then suggest that the person argued against should get a degree in sociology in order to be "educated".

If something is that goddamned important, then maybe it should be explained.

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7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Second, when BIPOC call you out on your shit, they are doing you a favor. They don't have to try and educate you. They don't have to spend even one second of time telling you how you screwed up. If they are, they're actually caring in some way for you.

I can't tell whether you're being serious or not. In what way is that a favor? It's an expression of dominance that has the generalized form "Regardless of what you meant, I find what you said offensive and therefore you must apologize and not say anything of this sort ever again. Because of my status, I have the right to decide what you may say on this subject and also decide to what extent (if any) I explain why I'm offended." It's not a favor, it's a blatant attempt at controlling the discourse via ad hominem attacks.

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13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

For starters, even if you didn't mean to be flippant or dismissive, you're being told you came off that way. That's something you can learn from! Take the advice. 

Again, it's a damned discussion board and I reserve the right to be flippant and dismissive at times.  If I go overboard, I will and always do apologize or at least acknowledge it - just like you do.  But it really fucking annoys me when people want to make one comment - which objectively is in no way racist and in fact acknowledging how racist this country is - to characterize me and make me out as the horrible white male.  It's just logically ridiculous.  And personally, yes, offensive. 

You know what I did in between this "conversation"?  Got drunk and high with a friend of mine that lives a few floors below me.  It's his birthday and he wanted to have a bit of fun before going back to his daughters.  He takes care of his mother, who I also will smoke with on many occasions.  I actually mentioned this thread to him while doing so (guess I should clarify he's black), and he fucking laughed his ass off.  He's like "dude stop wasting your time and help me figure out what shit to download on this new Pandora app I got."

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16 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

How does one precisely learn something, if they are not educated about the mistake they made. This whole "It's not my job to educate you" thing that comes from the left truly annoys me. How does exactly the left win converts to its cause when it feels it doesn't have to explain anything and then suggest that the person argued against should get a degree in sociology in order to be "educated".

If something is that goddamned important, then maybe it should be explained.

It’s because when you are in my case, an indigenous person, who is most of the time surrounded by white people who are usually entirely ignorant of indigenous issues and often say casually and unintentionally racist stuff- if you don’t opt out once in awhile, you are never going to get out from under all that labor. And as DMC perfectly demonstrated- that labor is usually fruitless anyway. BIPOC are expected to be educating people all the time and it’s tiresome and in many spaces it’s disadvantageous to our success in those spaces. It’s possible to learn plenty of stuff from books and articles written by POC that will help you in the same way, and people who want to learn can. The problem is that most people do not want to learn because confronting racism is shitty and uncomfortable.

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1 minute ago, Fury Resurrected said:

It’s because when you are in my case, an indigenous person, who is most of the time surrounded by white people who are usually entirely ignorant of indigenous issues and often say casually and unintentionally racist stuff- if you don’t opt out once in awhile, you are never going to get out from under all that labor. And as DMC perfectly demonstrated- that labor is usually fruitless anyway. BIPOC are expected to be educating people all the time and it’s tiresome and in many spaces it’s disadvantageous to our success in those spaces. It’s possible to learn plenty of stuff from books and articles written by POC that will help you in the same way, and people who want to learn can. The problem is that most people do not want to learn because confronting racism is shitty and uncomfortable.

Ya know, for shits and giggles, mind attacking @Maithanet and @Jaime L for being fans of the Washington Racial Slurs? 

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5 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

And as DMC perfectly demonstrated- that labor is usually fruitless anyway.

Please leave me out of your future discussions.  I'll do the same.

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6 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

It’s because when you are in my case, an indigenous person, who is most of the time surrounded by white people who are usually entirely ignorant of indigenous issues and often say casually and unintentionally racist stuff- if you don’t opt out once in awhile, you are never going to get out from under all that labor. And as DMC perfectly demonstrated- that labor is usually fruitless anyway. BIPOC are expected to be educating people all the time and it’s tiresome and in many spaces it’s disadvantageous to our success in those spaces. It’s possible to learn plenty of stuff from books and articles written by POC that will help you in the same way, and people who want to learn can. The problem is that most people do not want to learn because confronting racism is shitty and uncomfortable.

I get the point if the person is trolling or acting in bad faith. I don't get it when the mistake is subtle and not obvious. And you know a person could spend hours and hours reading this stuff and still not know something and make a mistake or gotten a different impression from something they read.

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6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I get the point if the person is trolling or acting in bad faith. I don't get it when the mistake is subtle and not obvious. And you know a person could spend hours and hours reading this stuff and still not know something and make a mistake.

It’s because it is still ALL THE TIME. I still think DMC was probably not trolling, but no amount of me explaining he said something racist is going to convince even a well meaning person who is unwilling to believe the experiences of POC over their own perceptions of self. If you have the attitude of “I am not a racist therefore what I said can not have been racist” or “I have POC friends and therefore I can not have said something racist” nothing is going to convince you otherwise. And there’s a ton of that out in the world.

 

Its a lot of work on this board to remind people in discussions of race that indigenous people exist. During the peak of the primaries I had to have daily discussions on here and in my outside life About why what Elizabeth Warren did is a big deal and bad for native people.

 

At work, when clients bring up my ethnicity- it is almost always to make some comment they do not know is racist. Some examples are asking if I get money from the government, if my “Indian name” is on my birth certificate or Kelli, what my Indian name is, what my spirit animal is, how you determine your spirit animal, do I drink a lot, they tell me that dances with wolves is their favorite movie or comment I must love tattooing dream catchers. It’s constant. I cannot educate each of these people and if I did it would adversely impact my employment. It’s not my job to end racism. It isn’t possible for me to succeed in that and trying every time in these mostly white spaces I am in would make me the target for even more racist issues. So I can’t even mostly tell these people at work they are being incredibly rude to me.  And more recently at work, I have to explain about POC and police use of force because it’s in the news and a lot of my clients are white people who don’t know other POC to ask. I get their intentions are good, but it’s a lot to put on a person to give an entire dissertation on their racial experience all the time and give all these personal stories and details to help others understand. That’s a big part of why I feel so bereft of other indigenous people. I am almost never in a space filled with people who get where I’m coming from where nobody is going to ask about my spirit animal. White people get that most of the time, where they are surrounded by people with similar experiences and customs that don’t need to be explained. 

 

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21 minutes ago, DMC said:

So, I was right then.  It is personal.  Thought so.

When you say something racist and someone points it out without saying fuck you bigot and you get defensive and belittling instead of owning and correcting it, usually that person is no longer interested in doing you favors. Since you wouldn’t do me the favor of addressing your statement and it’s impact, we simply aren’t on favor doing terms. It’d be cool if we were, but it’s a two way street.

In the case of the particular favor you asked, you were part of the discussion that proves the point, even if I liked you quite a lot, I wouldn’t be willing to honor that request when it is helpful to the discussion to use the example people can plainly see themselves.

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1 minute ago, Fury Resurrected said:

When you say something racist

 

1 hour ago, Fury Resurrected said:

If that’s what your point was it is NOT what you said.

Figure your argument out.  Now I said something racist, not just made a racist point.  What's next?

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