Statues, Monuments, and When to Take Down or Leave Up Ones Dedicated To Flawed Historical Figures

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What possible reason would protesters in San Francisco have for attacking a statue of Cervantes in Golden Gate Park?

https://mobile.twitter.com/jrivanob/status/1274185284406480896

And Grant's statue, too. This is ridiculous. 

Just tear down all the statues, and replace them with holograms shot from Elon's satellites.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I bet it's the cross.

Tearing down a statue of an author who was himself a slave... that’s making protesters look wanton in their destruction.

[Impmk2]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Tearing down a statue of an author who was himself a slave... that’s making protesters look wanton in their destruction.

So if you look at the twitter thread:

a) It looks like that statue wasn't torn down. It only had a celtic cross spray painted on it. And,

b) The person who tweeted was later told that it had been vandalised before the protest started (though this was disputed).

However yes it is a bad look. But it only takes 1 idiot with a can of spray paint to do that, rather than an organised effort to tear it down.

[TrueMetis]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What possible reason would protesters in San Francisco have for attacking a statue of Cervantes in Golden Gate Park?

https://mobile.twitter.com/jrivanob/status/1274185284406480896

Kind of goes against the idea that these statues let us remember history doesn't it? Instead this guy is just lumped in with all the statues of racist pieces of shit.

ETA: Though the Celtic cross makes me suspicious this might be someone else starting shit rather than something any protester did. The Celtic cross is pretty high up their in terms of "images being co-opted by Nazis."

[DireWolfSpirit]

The tearing down of public statues has a certain anarchist intellectual underpinning. I mean I used to quote this .

I think it only makes sense to seek out and identify structures of authority, hierarchy, and domination in every aspect of life, and to challenge them; unless a justification for them can be given, they are illegitimate, and should be dismantled, to increase the scope of human freedom.

Noam Chomsky

 

 

I think it's jarring for the general public, it's probably not winning any popularity votes. But when a generation comes with pitchforks, this is the tamest result we should expect.

 

For some of the protesters, they have lived through 25-30 yrs of one shock after another, from 9/11 to war to a credit crisis to climate change to the pandemic.

 

They are not only protesting about BLM, they are legit ready to burn shit down. And with Trumpism they feel were in a perfect storm, I'm not at all surprised at the riots.

The protesters have had their jobs taken from them by the pandemic and due to underemployment a lot of them haven't even been able to get decent careers going, years longer than its taken earlier generations. 

I bet a lot of them feel they dont have a damn thing to lose.

 

 

So yeah I see where this is all coming from, personally I think the public statues and such, would be better off in museums with some educational context to them, they have artistic value imo.

 

Beyond that though, we have to solve the issue of why we have millions ready to take to the streets. They don't feel included in the national direction. It's like the Nixon years, they see the people in power are lawless so they aren't going to respect authorities.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Kind of goes against the idea that these statues let us remember history doesn't it? Instead this guy is just lumped in with all the statues of racist pieces of shit.

ETA: Though the Celtic cross makes me suspicious this might be someone else starting shit rather than something any protester did. The Celtic cross is pretty high up their in terms of "images being co-opted by Nazis."

This article looks like they gave the Cervantes statue bloody eyes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marinij.com/2020/06/20/junipero-serra-statue-toppled-at-golden-gate-park/amp/

[Fragile Bird]

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What possible reason would protesters in San Francisco have for attacking a statue of Cervantes in Golden Gate Park?

https://mobile.twitter.com/jrivanob/status/1274185284406480896

I said it was the cross - the statue is of Fr. Serra, who created the mission system in California, established, of course, to convert the pagan Indians.

Another changing view of history! The mission houses in California have long been part of the fabric of California’s history. Looks like that history is going to get vanished.

[Fragile Bird]

7 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Kind of goes against the idea that these statues let us remember history doesn't it? Instead this guy is just lumped in with all the statues of racist pieces of shit.

ETA: Though the Celtic cross makes me suspicious this might be someone else starting shit rather than something any protester did. The Celtic cross is pretty high up their in terms of "images being co-opted by Nazis."

I don’t think it’s a Celtic cross, the angle’s lousy. Just a regular one.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

53 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don’t think it’s a Celtic cross, the angle’s lousy. Just a regular one.

Just a regular cross? How can you spew so much hate, BIRD!? Do you want the vampires to win? 

[Arakan]

Generally speaking, I find it great that the British and the US are having those very difficult self-reflective discussions about their past. Really about time. I hope the French will join soon. It will be a hurtful process but one which is worth it. My country, Germany, went through it from 1945-70 and then again especially in the 1990s. It’s difficult and the usual suspects will give the usual arguments. But they will lose in the end because they do no argue from a point of rationality and objectivity even though they sometimes pretend otherwise. Seen it all. From my Central European standpoint glorifying Churchill by the British due to his WW2 achievements (the only positive ones in his career) is almost as ridiculous as glorifying Stalin by some Russian / Ex-Soviet citizens. And it can be argued that from an emotional POV the latter is more understandable, given the fact that the Russians fought a fight against extermination which Britan never faced. Churchill a beacon of civilization and democracy? Give me a break. An imperialist, a white supremacist, a fighter for a rigid unjust class system and a inherently unjust society (British Empire). 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I said it was the cross - the statue is of Fr. Serra, who created the mission system in California, established, of course, to convert the pagan Indians.

Another changing view of history! The mission houses in California have long been part of the fabric of California’s history. Looks like that history is going to get vanished.

How does removing statues erases or eliminates history?, how do people know about the missions in california?, through the statues?  How does it change history to remove some statues or monuments? Do you really think that people will forget about slavery or about the missionaries who forcibly converted the native people, becouse there are fewer statues? 

[Zorral]

Here I thought everybody knows that the "Mission System" was enslavement of the Native populations, i.e. forced labor via violence.  Conversion was merely a side issue. It wasn't merely priest he oversaw, but military forces. It was literal conquest, that further forced the Native populations into the missions for there was nowhere else for them to go.

Quote

Prize nominee Elias Abundis Castillo unearths evidence in Serra’s own time describing the nightmarish realities of the missions. Even in the eyes of visitors from other colonial powers, such as Russia, France and Britain, the missions were, in practice, feudal fiefdoms on which the Chumash and countless other tribes served as virtual slaves. Pope Francis—or St. Francis of Assisi, for that matter—would have difficulty finding the principles by which they lived in the attitudes of the Spanish Franciscans, who regarded the Indians as subhuman, their lives in this world being of no concern against the cleansing of their souls in preparation for the next. After four Indians tried to flee Mission Carmel, Friar Serra sent a letter on July 31, 1775, to military commander Fernando de Rivera y Moncada, requesting he arrange to have his recaptured “lost sheep” flogged two or three times, adding, “If your Lordship does not have shackles, with your permission they may be sent from here.”

https://www.historynet.com/book-review-a-cross-of-thorns-by-elias-castillo.htm

It's an excellent book, which annihilates the sentimental, romanticized fantasy of Old Spanish California's history.  There are other books too.

 

[Fragile Bird]

16 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

How does removing statues erases or eliminates history?, how do people now about the missions in california?, throug the statues?  How does it change history to remove some statues or monuments? Do you really think that people will forget about slavery or about the missionaries who forcibly converted the native people, becouse there are fewer statues? 

Duh....it doesn't.  Stop being such a dick. But will the the rosy history of the missions vanish? Of course it will, as it should. It was part of the selling of America to the rest of the world, all propaganda. You Americans are the biggest bullshit artists in the history of the world. Not because other countries don't paint themselves with the good stuff they do and hide the evil, but because of the massive way Americans have used the power of media and the arts to paint itself in glory. And the missions were Spanish, so I'm sure kicking them in a corner will be a lot easier to do.

 

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Here I thought everybody knows that the "Mission System" was enslavement of the Native populations, i.e. forced labor via violence.  Conversion was merely a side issue. It wasn't merely priest he oversaw, but military forces. It was literal conquest, that further forced the Native populations into the missions for there was nowhere else for them to go.

https://www.historynet.com/book-review-a-cross-of-thorns-by-elias-castillo.htm

It's an excellent book, which annihilates the sentimental, romanticized fantasy of Old Spanish California's history.  There are other books too.

 

Easy. I'm not an American, why should I know those details? The fact that they were missions, which meant they were there to convert the "pagans", says enough to me. For that matter, do you know how many Americans are out there in the world today, trying to convert the ignorant pagans of the third world? And the first world too. Baptists flooded Poland after the Berlin wall came down, using money and bribes to convert the RC population, because an RC is as pagan as any savage, dontchaknow.

[Zorral]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Duh....it doesn't.  Stop being such a dick. But will the the rosy history of the missions vanish? Of course it will, as it should. It was part of the selling of America to the rest of the world, all propaganda. You Americans are the biggest bullshit artists in the history of the world. Not because other countries don't paint themselves with the good stuff they do and hide the evil, but because of the massive way Americans have used the power of media and the arts to paint itself in glory. And the missions were Spanish, so I'm sure kicking them in a corner will be a lot easier to do.

 

Easy. I'm not an American, why should I know those details? The fact that they were missions, which meant they were there to convert the "pagans", says enough to me. For that matter, do you know how many Americans are out there in the world today, trying to convert the ignorant pagans of the third world? And the first world too. Baptists flooded Poland after the Berlin wall came down, using money and bribes to convert the RC population, because an RC is as pagan as any savage, dontchaknow.

Why yes, I am familiar with this.  As per usual, ever since the Catholic Church, religion has been the front line of conquest.  Which is why at the very moment people in Africa are being murdered for being gay, for being witches, all thanks to US evangelicals -- among many others.  What they've been doing for decades in Latin America is something we've been following closely as well.

IOW, why you snarky and angry, enough to call me names?  Sincerely inquire.

 

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Why yes, I am familiar with this.  As per usual, ever since the Catholic Church, religion has been the front line of conquest.  Which is why at the very moment people in Africa are being murdered for being gay, for being witches, all thanks to US evangelicals -- among many others.  What they've been doing for decades in Latin America is something we've been following closely as well.

IOW, why you snarky and angry, enough to call me names?  Sincerely inquire.

 

WTF?

eta: Oh, is calling out America to be a personal thing now? lol!

[Conflicting Thought]

26 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

. You Americans

I am from america, but not from the US

[Heartofice]

52 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Generally speaking, I find it great that the British and the US are having those very difficult self-reflective discussions about their past. Really about time. I hope the French will join soon. It will be a hurtful process but one which is worth it. My country, Germany, went through it from 1945-70 and then again especially in the 1990s. It’s difficult and the usual suspects will give the usual arguments. But they will lose in the end because they do no argue from a point of rationality and objectivity even though they sometimes pretend otherwise. Seen it all. From my Central European standpoint glorifying Churchill by the British due to his WW2 achievements (the only positive ones in his career) is almost as ridiculous as glorifying Stalin by some Russian / Ex-Soviet citizens. And it can be argued that from an emotional POV the latter is more understandable, given the fact that the Russians fought a fight against extermination which Britan never faced. Churchill a beacon of civilization and democracy? Give me a break. An imperialist, a white supremacist, a fighter for a rigid unjust class system and a inherently unjust society (British Empire). 

It’s simply untrue that Britain has been living in some sort of ‘harking for the days of empire’ way of thinking.. well for at least a good half a century. It’s something that keeps getting repeated over and over again, without any sort of evidence. From my perspective, as a Brit, growing up and living in the country for over 40 years all I’ve known and experienced is very much a sense of embarrassment and shame over our previous empire, and nobody is calling out to try and re establish it. Despite rumours , we aren’t taught in schools of the glory days, the media doesn’t celebrate the empire and there is no longing for the past.

Britain is generally a country steeped in its own sense of mediocrity and shame over our  ineptitude. That is what we are normally taught. The big topic i got in history in school wasn’t how Britain conquered the world, it was how so many british people died in wars led by out of touch leaders. We watched Blackadder goes forth when we were taught about WW1, which is pretty scathing of empire.

Also, it is ridiculous to try and attack Churchill, a man who did so much stop Europe being taken over by actual Nazis, and pretend like it means nothing, no matter his other flaws.

You wonder why there is such a backlash to people pulling down statues when you have people defacing statues of people like Churchill, not really understanding what that means.

[Zorral]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

WTF?

eta: Oh, is calling out America to be a personal thing now? lol!

You said, and I quote "Stop being such a dick." at the top of your reply.

How is it that I'm a dick for providing the to the question as why people in California object to the glorification of the Mission System and that this history will be lost without a statue (or something -- you weren't all that clear) -- which also, btw, produced not only wealth for the missions and the Church, by enslaving the Indigenous Peoples, but also a very large mestizo population, thanks to the priests and their Indigenous 'housekeepers.'  Just as they did throughout Mexico and the Southwest territories that that US got from Mexico in the war of 1848.

Nor have you explained why you were so angry with me for doing this that you called me a dick.  Not that I give a damn what you might call me in terms of hurt feelings, but curiosity as to why this information made you lashed out in anger.

Just now, Conflicting Thought said:

I am from america, but not from the US

Excellent point as so many American friends and colleagues are so frequently forced to point out.  Sigh.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

You said, and I quote "Stop being such a dick." at the top of your reply.

That was to Conflicting Thoughts, not to you.

That said, no one should be posting stuff like that. Be civil, folks.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You said, and I quote "Stop being such a dick." at the top of your reply.

I think she was saying that to me