Statues, Monuments, and When to Take Down or Leave Up Ones Dedicated To Flawed Historical Figures

[The Marquis de Leech]

7 hours ago, dornishpen said:

I guess you don't pay much attention to how Japan is discussed in China or South Korea.

Point taken, though I was actually referring more to how the West treats them.

[Fragile Bird]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Pretty sure there is no sculpture of Lee at Lafayette park. There is one of Andrew Jackson, which is the only equestrian statue there, I think.

The reporter first said Lee, but the statue was Jackson’s.

[sologdin]

His verdict on the American Founding ("How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?") is in some ways the first and last word on the subject.

kickass.  has this work been done, establishing a causal relationship between british restrictions on slave trafficking and rising independence sentiment among american slave traffickers? the early constitution is definitely a slavers' document. the declaration's metaphorical over-reliance on ancient concepts like tyranny and despotism is the type of language rightwingers use to oppose civil rights policy.

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, sologdin said:

has this work been done, establishing a causal relationship between british restrictions on slave trafficking and rising independence sentiment among american slave traffickers? t

Yes. As to history of which I have commented quit a bit right here too, in the past.

Which is the biggest 'lie' the 1619 Project that the US history gatekeepers hysterically DEMANDED they correct, retract and apologize for. The NY Times and the Project did not do those things.  The likes of Gordon Wood and especially Sean Wilentz are still weeping for the Lèse-majesté of being ignored and dismissed by historians of US History.

 

[Ran]

@sologdin

Speaking of Wilentz, he wrote in The Atlantic about the project and notes reasons for why the idea that abolition in England did not really impact the revolution. In terms of who he is disagreeing with in a schoalrly sense, of course, it's not the NY Times journalists, but rather the Blumrosens and their book Slave Nation; note the Publisher's Weekly review on the page, which is fairly harsh by PW standards for a book of this kind...

[sologdin]

cool.  thanks for the references.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

@sologdin

Speaking of Wilentz, he wrote in The Atlantic about the project and notes reasons for why the idea that abolition in England did not really impact the revolution. In terms of who he is disagreeing with in a schoalrly sense, of course, it's not the NY Times journalists, but rather the Blumrosens and their book Slave Nation; note the Publisher's Weekly review on the page, which is fairly harsh by PW standards for a book of this kind...

It's a lot more than that -- you haven't had the misfortune to be sitting in the room as he rants and raves about slavery and the miserable contemporary historians who are falsifying it to take down the wonderful Mr. Jefferson and ruin his own life.

Wilentz went off the rails, seriously, some years back.

AND Wilentz is wrong.  Period.  

[The Anti-Targ]

I feel like if a statue or monument was erected to "honour" the thing that makes it controversial then it's probably good to remove it to a museum or archive. If it honours something of which the whole community can rightly celebrate, or commemorate, then it should probably stay while acknowledging the problematic aspects associated with it.

There are few people from our past that did not have problematic aspects to their character or politics who were prominent enough for people to consider them as warranting a statue or monument. However there were people in our past who did have exactly the kinds of attitudes we would consider as in-keeping with contemporary ideas about rights, freedoms and equality.

It is often argued that we can't judge historical figures by today's standards. But on some issues I think that's giving some historical figures an undeserved pass, because there were ideas, attitudes and movements at the time which opposed the less savoury elements of these people. At the very least I would say historical figures from the mid-19th century on should not get a pass on sexism, racism, exploitation, colonialism, or eugenics. There were loads of people as far back as that who's values on these matters aligned with today's values. And in terms of colonialism the USA was anti-colonial in its founding conception, so that well and truly pre-dates the 19th century.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't go in for public vandalism, even if it is of statues of slavers who were immortalised for being the bestest of slavers. So I think it is appropriate to give the vandal a strong talking to and a warning not to do it again and some kind of community service. Because turning a total blind eye is not really the right thing to do where the rule of law is meant to prevail.

But I also won't say he shouldna done it, even though I wouldna been a party to such an act. Because I am in total sympathy with the motivation to do it, and I would be 100% behind the orderly removal of such symbols.

[Fury Resurrected]

9 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I don't go in for public vandalism, even if it is of statues of slavers who were immortalised for being the bestest of slavers. So I think it is appropriate to give the vandal a strong talking to and a warning not to do it again and some kind of community service. Because turning a total blind eye is not really the right thing to do where the rule of law is meant to prevail.

But I also won't say he shouldna done it, even though I wouldna been a party to such an act. Because I am in total sympathy with the motivation to do it, and I would be 100% behind the orderly removal of such symbols.

What if, as in the case of the Columbus statue in Saint Paul, there has been constant pressure to remove it in the appropriate channels for decades and it just does not happen?

[Larry of the Lawn]

4 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

What if, as in the case of the Columbus statue in Saint Paul, there has been constant pressure to remove it in the appropriate channels for decades and it just does not happen?

Tear it down.  Shouldn't be fined for cleaning up trash in public spaces if the city won't do it.

[Inkdaub]

22 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I don't go in for public vandalism, even if it is of statues of slavers who were immortalised for being the bestest of slavers.

Really?  Good grief.

22 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

...the rule of law is meant to prevail.

The rule of law is created by the powerful to serve the powerful.  Sometimes the actual people need to step in and make a correction. 

 

8 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Tear it down.  Shouldn't be fined for cleaning up trash in public spaces if the city won't do it.

This is the answer.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Inkdaub said:

Sometimes the actual people need to step in and make a correction. 

The problem with this thinking is that it's the same thinking that has justified a lot of very illiberal things over the centuries, and certainly in modern times.

Democracy may indeed be the worst form of government, except for all the others.

 

[Inkdaub]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

The problem with this thinking is that it's the same thinking that has justified a lot of very illiberal things over the centuries, and certainly in modern times.

I think you're right.  I thought of that as I typed out that post but I left it because I still think it's true.  Particularly true within the context of the subject at hand in this thread. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Inkdaub said:

The rule of law is created by the powerful to serve the powerful.  Sometimes the actual people need to step in and make a correction. 

 

[Inkdaub]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Now we're getting somewhere.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 hours ago, Inkdaub said:

The rule of law is created by the powerful to serve the powerful.  Sometimes the actual people need to step in and make a correction. 

So, if “the rule of law is created by the powerful to serve the powerful” what alternative do you offer to the “rule of law”?

[Zorral]

56 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So, if “the rule of law is created by the powerful to serve the powerful” what alternative do you offer to the “rule of law”?

Obvs, nothing! Keep the status qua, the only safe resort to law and order! Keep the powerful's systems that steal from, oppress and murder the non-powerful and protect the thieves, oppressors and murderers in impunity, for the terrible, dreadful chance that they might suffer consequences.  Anything is better than that they suffer consequences for their god give, ordained, entitled rights to treat everyone as disposable sewage.

Myself, as an alternate system to this, provide access to decent nutrition, housing, medical care and education.  Make it community based and served. The real stuff, that is, not the bs that is the system's mode of plundering and extracting whatever bit of debt servitude it can from the non-obscenely bloated wealthy. 

Promote creative, real stuff creative, opportunities that are community based, with access to musical instruments, cameras, art supplies, etc.

Real opportunity does a lot to decrease need for fascist type military and cops in the community.

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Obvs, nothing! Keep the status qua, the only safe resort to law and order! Keep the powerful's systems that steal from, oppress and murder the non-powerful and protect the thieves, oppressors and murderers in impunity, for the terrible, dreadful chance that they might suffer consequences.  Anything is better than that they suffer consequences for their god give, ordained, entitled rights to treat everyone as disposable sewage.

Myself, as an alternate system to this, provide access to decent nutrition, housing, medical care and education.  Make it community based and served. The real stuff, that is, not the bs that is the system's mode of plundering and extracting whatever bit of debt servitude it can from the non-obscenely bloated wealthy. 

Promote creative, real stuff creative, opportunities that are community based, with access to musical instruments, cameras, art supplies, etc.

Real opportunity does a lot to decrease need for fascist type military and cops in the community.

 

 

And when conflicts arise that cannot be successfully mediated how do you propose resolving those conflicts without resort to “law”?  A uniform set of rules that apply equally to everyone.

[Kalbear]

27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And when conflicts arise that cannot be successfully mediated how do you propose resolving those conflicts without resort to “law”?  A uniform set of rules that apply equally to everyone.

But they dont. It's a neat concept, but it is clear that they absolutely do not apply to everyone equally. And when that happens, you get corrections until it starts being better. 

Dont want the corrections? Dont fuck up your practice of law.