(Spoilers) theory on the wall

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, broken one said:

I thought Melisandre cast a fire bolt at the eagle (?)

So she says.  I'm not sure she did so or is just claiming to do so.  Nobody saw her 'cast a bolt'.  Orell's eagle was situated above the Wall.  I wonder if Coldhands would also burst into flame if he attempted to cross the Wall.  

[broken one]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So she says.  I'm not sure she did so or is just claiming to do so.  Nobody saw her 'cast a bolt'.  Orell's eagle was situated above the Wall.  I wonder if Coldhands would also burst into flame if he attempted to cross the Wall.  

OK it could have been spell of remote ignition, I just prefer the concept of magic missle :-). Mel lies from time to time to make herself look bigger but in this case... Why didn't Ghost burst into flame while passing the gate? Or Borroq's boar? I imagine the wall is filled with CotF type of magic, so it does not stop wargs / their familiars no matter when (while skinchanging or not) because it is the same magic. Maybe Coldhands cannot pass because he was resurrected by the Others (only "hacked" by CotF or BR) and the Others' necromancy is no go for the wall's enchantment.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, broken one said:

OK it could have been spell of remote ignition, I just prefer the concept of magic missle :-). Mel lies from time to time to make herself look bigger but in this case... Why didn't Ghost burst into flame while passing the gate? Or Borroq's boar? I imagine the wall is filled with CotF type of magic, so it does not stop wargs / their familiars no matter when (while skinchanging or not) because it is the same magic. Maybe Coldhands cannot pass because he was resurrected by the Others (only "hacked" by CotF or BR) and the Others' necromancy is no go for the wall's enchantment.

There was no skinchanging going on with Ghost and Borroq when they passed the Wall.  But fiery missiles is fine with me.

[broken one]

Just read last Jon's POV chapter in ASOS, when Jon is sent by Slynt to kill Mance. Conversation between Jon and free folk commanders, minutes before Stannis forces attack. Varamyr is controlling Orell's eagle. He says he flew above the wall and saw everything, Mance adds that now they now bad situation of Castle Black's crew. How few ammunition and food they have, how few they are, how few reinforcements they got from the eastwatch. And that they know the stairs collapsed and defenders need to use cage to transport men upon the wall. The eagle was on the southern side of the wall (while skinchanging) and nothing happened.

[chrisdaw]

Dragons may occur naturally but Westeros dragons were probably all second lifed entities. The Others are likely a variation of second lifing too, perpetual souls in magical frozen bodies (because human bodies tend to fall apart over time), those who succeeded where Varamyr failed. Coldhands probably another second lifer (in a human body falling apart, demonstrating why the Others take magical ice bodies).

The wall's magic seems to prevent second lifing magic. I would think it would prevent skinchanging too, but that is proven not to be the case. Dragons are souls set afire, Others are souls frozen, perhaps the wall can tell the difference between these and regular souls.

Maybe the wall's magic tries to suck the soul out of the "vassals" and encase the soul in the wall. That would fit thematically with a bunch of things - stories and language concerning the wall. Perhaps a soul frozen (and incidentally one on fire) simply can't pass the magic barrier.

[nikiris]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:48 AM, John Suburbs said:

Well, it's also universally accepted that Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son, that there are gods of all sorts watching out for mankind, that the long summers and winters are perfectly natural, and all kinds of other things. Meanwhile, the ancient legends have tales of knights before there were knights, kings that lived for thousands of years, snows a hundred feet deep that lasted for generations . . . Martin excels at getting readers to believe one thing when the truth is the exact opposite.

Ice melts. Stone would be more difficult, but more durable. The Others are ice creatures and build things out of ice, so it only makes logical sense that they would be the ones to build a great wall of ice. No one else has demonstrated anything close to this kind of magic -- not men, not children, no one.

What is the connection between dire wolves and magic? Yes, wargs specialize in wolves. But there is nothing inherently magical about wolves like On-Eye and Stalker, so it's a leap in logic to say dire wolves are magical just because they can be warged. Dire wolves are not mythological, BTW. They were real:

https://www.britannica.com/animal/dire-wolf

They existed alongside pre-historic men.

If dire wolves existed in the south since before the Wall was built, then it stands to reason that they died out. Then suddenly, after two hundred years, a dire wolf shows up with a litter of pups that exactly matches the Stark children. Is it more feasible that this pregnant wolf went around the Wall, either through the Frostfangs or the Bay of Seals, or passed through it somehow? Winterfell is far inland, so I think it stands to reason that it passed through, but there is no way to be certain.

Bran is warging Summer on a regular basis and has even dropped into Hodor at this point, while Jojen has been having dreams since he was little. I'd hardly call that dormant.

 

".... Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son, that there are gods of all sorts watching out for mankind, that the long summers and winters are perfectly natural..."

I'm assuming the wall stops white walkers because there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.  I would not assume Ned is Jon's father because there is contradictory evidence and foreshadowing that gives me reasons to doubt.
There is evidence of the Gods helping mankind. We see a god resurrect the dead, heal and save a badly infected hand and send visions.  

The long seasons aren't considered natural, Maesters theorize they are caused by higher mysteries.

 I challenge you to support your claim, what makes you think the entire world of Westeros got it wrong about white walkers and the wall. Where in the books is it even hinted at that the magic in the wall won't stop white walkers.
 

"What is the connection between dire wolves and magic?"

"....  say dire wolves are magical just because they can be warged."

A direwolf isn't just warged, they require a stronger bond similar to marriage. Through  POV we witness the magical bond between Starks and their direwolves, a bond that's way above normal wargs. According to legend this man/direwolf bond was shared by the Starks of old, meaning the bond isn't unique to these direwolves. IMHO any animal capable of achieving such a bond is connected to magic. 

"... Ice melts."

Not in the Arctic. 

"No one else has demonstrated anything close to this kind of magic -- not men, not children, no one." 
 

White walkers haven't demonstrated this level of magic either, we are told they build amazing structures out of ice, we've never seen this ability. According to legend the COTF were also capable of some serious magic, they shattered the arm of Dorne and flooded the neck. 
At the 3ER cave we learn the COTF carved spells to keep the white walkers and wights out, just like the wall.

Why would white walkers build a wall? We know the magic in the wall stops wights. Why would white walkers include spells that contain wights when white walkers already have total control over them? Why would the Night's Watch guard the white walkers wall? Why were castles built to garrison the white walkers wall? 

It's a leap to say white walkers have ice magic so they must have built the wall. Ice is the only practical building material that far north. They needed a structure 300 miles long over rough uneven ground in the frigid north ASAP. It would take decades to find enough stone and decades more for the actual construction. They would need to pay workers wages or provide room and board. Either way massive amount of $$ would be needed as well. Plus stone has to be laid on semi-level ground, to use stone 300 miles would need to be leveled. On the other hand you have and endless supply of ice that conforms to the land, no leveling necessary. 

"Bran is warging Summer on a regular basis and has even dropped into Hodor at this point, while Jojen has been having dreams since he was little. I'd hardly call that dormant." 

Brans ability was dormant because it did not manifest on it's own. The 3ER made contact with Bran in his coma and forced his third eye open. When jojen was young he nearly died from a fever. The 3ER visited him and gave him the gift of green dreams. Jojen's ability was dormant because it also did not manifest on it's own. Again it took the outside influence of 3ER.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 6/26/2020 at 10:42 AM, nikiris said:

".... Jon Snow is Ned's bastard son, that there are gods of all sorts watching out for mankind, that the long summers and winters are perfectly natural..."

I'm assuming the wall stops white walkers because there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.  I would not assume Ned is Jon's father because there is contradictory evidence and foreshadowing that gives me reasons to doubt.
There is evidence of the Gods helping mankind. We see a god resurrect the dead, heal and save a badly infected hand and send visions.  

The long seasons aren't considered natural, Maesters theorize they are caused by higher mysteries.

 I challenge you to support your claim, what makes you think the entire world of Westeros got it wrong about white walkers and the wall. Where in the books is it even hinted at that the magic in the wall won't stop white walkers.
 

"What is the connection between dire wolves and magic?"

"....  say dire wolves are magical just because they can be warged."

A direwolf isn't just warged, they require a stronger bond similar to marriage. Through  POV we witness the magical bond between Starks and their direwolves, a bond that's way above normal wargs. According to legend this man/direwolf bond was shared by the Starks of old, meaning the bond isn't unique to these direwolves. IMHO any animal capable of achieving such a bond is connected to magic. 

"... Ice melts."

Not in the Arctic. 

"No one else has demonstrated anything close to this kind of magic -- not men, not children, no one." 
 

White walkers haven't demonstrated this level of magic either, we are told they build amazing structures out of ice, we've never seen this ability. According to legend the COTF were also capable of some serious magic, they shattered the arm of Dorne and flooded the neck. 
At the 3ER cave we learn the COTF carved spells to keep the white walkers and wights out, just like the wall.

Why would white walkers build a wall? We know the magic in the wall stops wights. Why would white walkers include spells that contain wights when white walkers already have total control over them? Why would the Night's Watch guard the white walkers wall? Why were castles built to garrison the white walkers wall? 

It's a leap to say white walkers have ice magic so they must have built the wall. Ice is the only practical building material that far north. They needed a structure 300 miles long over rough uneven ground in the frigid north ASAP. It would take decades to find enough stone and decades more for the actual construction. They would need to pay workers wages or provide room and board. Either way massive amount of $$ would be needed as well. Plus stone has to be laid on semi-level ground, to use stone 300 miles would need to be leveled. On the other hand you have and endless supply of ice that conforms to the land, no leveling necessary. 

"Bran is warging Summer on a regular basis and has even dropped into Hodor at this point, while Jojen has been having dreams since he was little. I'd hardly call that dormant." 

Brans ability was dormant because it did not manifest on it's own. The 3ER made contact with Bran in his coma and forced his third eye open. When jojen was young he nearly died from a fever. The 3ER visited him and gave him the gift of green dreams. Jojen's ability was dormant because it also did not manifest on it's own. Again it took the outside influence of 3ER.

 

Do you also assume that the Wall stops giants, CotF, unicorns, etc, as well? There is no evidence to the contrary for any of these creatures either. The fact is, no walker as attempted to pass the Wall yet, so we simply don't know if it affects them or not. By all means assume all you want, as long as you recognize it is an assumption, not a fact.

We have never seen any gods do anything at all, let alone resurrect the dead. People have done that, and they attribute it to some god or another that they have never seen. So again, assume but don't claim it as fact.

We know of exactly two maesters who theorized that there is something wrong with the weather, but the vast majority dismiss the idea, arguing that if this is the way it is supposed to be then this is the way it would be.

The walkers have not been seen since before there was a written language. Everything "known" about them was not written down until thousands of years later. That's hundreds of generations of telling and retelling, to the point that nothing can be certain. The only reference to the Wall stopping the Others is Dalla, but she is also relying on tales begun thousands of years ago -- she has no way of knowing if any of it is true or not.

As of yet there is no indication that the Others are heading toward the Wall, that they intend to breach it or are bent on destroying mankind.

 

In what way is the Stark bond "way above normal wargs"? They see what their wolf sees, and even then only through dreams. Orel could see what his eagle saw at will, making him no more or less powerful than Bran. Varamyr  was able to dominate fierce creatures like bears and shadowcats against their will -- none of the Starks have shown this ability. Again, plenty of non-magical animals can be warged, so to say that dire wolves are magical just because they can be warged by Starks is yet another theory with no evidence. There is no way to disprove it, but you have no evidence to support it either, just like your theory about the walkers and the Wall, the gods and the seasons.

 

The Wall is not in the arctic. It melts all the time; they call it weeping.

 

The Others are the only race to exhibit an ability to fashion anything useful out of ice. They make powerful weapons and armor and, considering ice is all they have in the LoaW, houses and other buildings as well. So again, you say there is no evidence that the Others built the Wall, but there is no evidence that anyone else could do it. And it is completely incongruous to place wards in the ground that stops creatures that glide easily over ice and snow, and then think that a great wall of ice is going to provide any additional protection -- particularly since the Wall only extends about three quarters across the continent with the rest being blocked by unguarded, unwarded, snow-capped mountains. So sorry, ancient tales and legends are hardly reliable, and all of the actual facts that we know for certain point against the Wall as an effective barrier to the Others.

Yes, the CotF shattered the arm and tried to do the same in the neck, but neither of these feats had anything to do with ice.

 

Why would the Others build a wall? First off, we don't know that the walkers are the ones raising and controlling the wights. The only time we see the two together is the one riding the dead horse, but there is no evidence that he raised it nor that he is controlling it any differently from a normal horse. There is plenty of necromancy south of the Wall and elsewhere, so for all we know the Walkers built the Wall to prevent the undead from coming north, not the other way around. But I am speculating. It is also possible that the Others built the wall but are not responsible for placing the wards. It could very well have been intended to prevent living men from migrating north -- basically failing to achieve with the Arm of Dorne and the Neck also failed to do, leading to the current reaction of the Walkers. We also don't know when the castles were built or when the NW was founded and took over the Wall. It could have been 1,000 years after it was built. There are many possibilities still in play here.

 

It's an even greater leap to say that the only race known to have any ice-magic capabilities at all are not responsible for a great wall made of ice. There is plenty of wood and stone to build a wall, and if the children are capable of shattering earth, then there is plenty of that well -- a great wall of earth and rocks and wood would be far more formidable to creatures who work with ice and travel easily over ice than a great wall of ice.

 

First of all, are you talking about the show or the books? In the show, it was the three-eyed raven; in the books it's the three-eyed crow. And nobody's warging abilities come fully formed at birth; even the great Varamyr had to be trained, and not by a bird in his dreams. The other Stark children also evolved warging capabilities to varying extent without the 3EC's guidance. And all the wolves bonded with all the Starks and shared their respective personalities, so to say that Bran's capabilities were utterly dormant until the 3EC came along -- and, I presume, would have remained so otherwise? -- is contrary to all the facts.