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The Horn of Joramun


TheLastWolf

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There has been a lot of hype regarding this topic and I wish to get my facts clear about. 

Though Jon suspected that Ygritte lied to him about not finding the Horn of Joramun, it could have easily meant that the horn they found (which Tormund also claims wasn't the Horn of Winter) was just an old, huge horn with runes engraved in old gold. It also means that Mance lied. 

I'm more inclined to believe this as Ygritte's bitterness at not finding the Horn seemed very real to be faked. She also mentioned some shades that were released... so someone please enlighten me on that. Coming back to the matter at hand, I suspect Mance might've lied so the crows do not know that it's still hidden somewhere. 

+Melisandre burned the fake horn in vain(if it was fake) and she might've overlooked it in one of her many confusing fire-visions.

Please recall a particular chapter with Davos as POV character in ASOS where Axell Florent proposes to take Claw Isle from the traitor Celtigar. Among the mentioned treasures there, a Valyrian steel axe and a horn that can wake monsters from the deep

Could that be the Horn of Joramun? If so, how did it end up there? What is that Valyrian steel axe? More mysteries unravel.... 

P.S I'm new,(green as summer grass) so all your feedback would be appreciated. 

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8 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

There is a possibility that horn in Claw Isle was among spoils of war gained from Hardhome. Or Celtigars were among slavers who wiped out that town and sold most people they captured to slavery but kept that horn.

Thank you so much.... This could be a possible explanation... This doubt was irking me for a long time... Though no one knows what happened at Hardhome centuries ago. 

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The general consensus is that the Horn of Joramun is the broken horn that Jon found at the Fist along with the dragonglass. Sam has it now, in Oldtown, where Euron is headed. 

As far as the horn owned by House Celtigar being able to summon krakens from the sea, it sort of sounds like a dragonbinder sort of situation. I think it's the sort of magic involved that's interesting. Dragonbinder is tricked to summon /bind dragons, it is Valyrian, so fire magic and blood sacrifice would have gone into making it. If Celtigar's horn can summon krakens, then I think we're looking at some sort of water magic or Drowned God magic perhaps. I personally doubt the horn came from Hardhome. For me it sounds like something that might have belonged to a seafaring people.

As far as the Valyrian axe goes, I don't think there's any mystery there. The Celtigars are Valyrian, so they probably brought it with them when they left for Claw Isle. 

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The general consensus is that the Horn of Joramun is the broken horn that Jon found at the Fist along with the dragonglass. Sam has it now, in Oldtown, where Euron is headed. 

As far as the horn owned by House Celtigar being able to summon krakens from the sea, it sort of sounds like a dragonbinder sort of situation. I think it's the sort of magic involved that's interesting. Dragonbinder is tricked to summon /bind dragons, it is Valyrian, so fire magic and blood sacrifice would have gone into making it. If Celtigar's horn can summon krakens, then I think we're looking at some sort of water magic or Drowned God magic perhaps. I personally doubt the horn came from Hardhome. For me it sounds like something that might have belonged to a seafaring people.

As far as the Valyrian axe goes, I don't think there's any mystery there. The Celtigars are Valyrian, so they probably brought it with them when they left for Claw Isle. 

I have to agree with your points on the Valyrian steel axe and their Horn which can summon krakens from the deep. Since the Celtigars are Valyrian, could there be any connection to the horn being a sea dragon-binder? We all know of Nagga (Your Drowned God theory supports this). But there might as yet be a connection to the North and Hardhome, remember Old Nan's tales of ice dragons

Coming back to the Horn of winter, how did it end up with Jon who passes it on to Sam? Who buried it beneath the Fist of the First men? Cold hands(on the orders of Bloodraven)? Benjen stark? GRRM confirmed that Cold hands is not Benjen, moreover Cold hands died a long time ago, minimum 50 years ago. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The general consensus is that the Horn of Joramun is the broken horn that Jon found at the Fist along with the dragonglass. Sam has it now, in Oldtown, where Euron is headed. 

That isn't a general consensus just an idea people came up with a long time ago when they were looking which horn the Horn of Joramun could be if it already showed up.

But there is no reason to believe that the horn actually showed up so far.

If Sam's horn was the Horn of Winter somebody would have to bring it back to the Wall for it to trigger the fall of the Wall - and that's not all that likely to happen soon.

Not to mention that the idea the good guys - or even Euron - could bring down the Wall accidentally is not exactly a good plotline. That is more likely something the Others are going to arrange intentionally, either themselves or by means of another Craster-like person in their service.

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Definition of the Problem

From the original 3-page outline George R.R. Martin wrote for 'Game of Thrones' in 1993:

  • The first threat grows from the emnity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

  • While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

  • The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The invasion of the Others was designed as the third and final act of the original trilogy. This is the climax of the ASOIAF saga. And this can only take place if the Others find a way to pass the Wall, which stood for millennia. I think this is enough to show the place and importance of the Wall’s fate in the saga.

Agency

My credo as a writer has always been Faulkner’s Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he said, “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.” That transcends genre. That’s what good fiction, good drama is about: human beings in trouble. You have to make a decision, you have to do something, your life is in danger or your honor is in danger, or you're facing some crisis of the heart. To make a satisfying story, the protagonist has to solve the problem, or fail to solve the problem – but has to grapple with the problem in some kind of rational way, and the reader has to see that.

There are countless other interviews where GRRM say basically the same thing as above. ASOIAF is a character-driven story, or at least that is what GRRM aims to do. No deux ex machina, no acts of gods, no cop outs, no sword of the author that cuts the Gordian Knot etc.

Early Concepts

I think George originally planned to start his “icy apocalypse” with a horn, as allusion to the eschatology of Abrahamic religions. Nothing wrong with that. But as he wrote into the saga, especially after getting closer to the invasion of the Others, he realized that removing the Wall with a horn is incompatible with his “human heart in conflict” concept. If a character accidentally (or by expecting something else to happen) blows the Horn of Winter and brings the icy apocalypse, this would seem as a cheap cop out. Surely a character might deliberately blow the Horn of Winter with the intention of starting the invasion of the Others and preserve some agency. But that would necessitate an organic story to that character as to why he/she would do such a thing. In both cases, George has to flesh out mountains of story and address lots of important questions if he wishes to bring down the Wall with a horn:

  • Who built this horn and with what purpose?
  • Why was the horn not destroyed?
  • Where was this horn kept through ages?
  • How does it work?
  • Why is the Wall still standing after Joramun presumably blew his horn?
  • How will all this information about the horn be revealed to the readers?
  • How will it be blown in the story?
  • Who will blow it, where and why?

These questions might go on but I think it is clear that addressing all these questions and sticking to George’s main credo as a writer (i.e human heart in conflict) proved to be an impossible task. As a result, the plans changed.

Change of Plans

In the first three volumes, bringing down the Wall was not an immediate problem for George. At the end of ASoS, Sam was still at the Wall with the horn. We know that at this point, George was thinking of throwing a 5 year gap, which means Sam would spend the gap at the Wall. I guess the horn was going to stay at the Wall and be blown there according to George’s original concepts. But when he hit severe roadblocks after publishing ASoS, a painful process where he dismissed the 5 year gap after wasting a year or two, we see a very important change made by George and emphasized to us twice.

It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

__

Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true.

“He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl.”

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

George retconned Old Nan’s words in ASoS and introduced a second condition for the survival of the Wall’s magic. According to Old Nan, the magic protection of the Wall will wear off if the Night's Watch fails to stay true to their mission. This is perfectly aligned with the agency aspect of the story. The Wall will fail due to human characters failing to do their duties. Indeed, the decline and depravation of the Night’s Watch has been going on for a long time. During the time of the story, the Night’s Watch is in a free fall, deteriorating rapidly with each book published. It feels very natural and organic if the Others breach the Wall as a result of the Night’s Watch hitting the rock bottom. The Others is first and foremost their part of story. The Wall is their responsibility. The Wall can not fail due to the actions of third parties taking place at the other side of the continent.

The first King-Beyond-the-Wall, according to legend, was Joramun, who claimed to have a horn that would bring down the Wall when it woke "the giants from the earth." (That the Wall still stands says something of his claim, and perhaps even of his existence.)

Another evidence for the changing plans came with TWOIAF.

What of the Setup About the Horn of Winter?

The setup is no way near conclusive. There are dozens of possible ways to tie the loose ends about the Horn of Winter and Sam’s horn while bringing down the Wall by the failure of the Night’s Watch.

  • The Horn of Winter does not bring the Wall down as the songs claim. This solution is further supported by the same songs claiming that Joramun blew the horn once but the Wall is still standing. This can be revealed in the text by Bloodraven when he explains to Bran where the Horn of Winter comes from, what it can do and why he sent it to Jon.
  • Why is Joramun’s Horn is also called as the Horn of Winter? A plausible explanation is that it belonged to the Kings of Winter, who also happened to have an ancestral sword called Ice. There might or might not be something magic to all these “cool” names. Regardless, this scenario is not impossible, considering the tale of Bale the Bard. In legend, he scaled the Wall, infiltrated to Winterfell and stole something from the King of Winter. The wildlings still boast of this highly suspicious event that no doubt singers bloated with fake news. Similarly, Joramun’s song might be a bloated version of a real event where Joramun sneaked into Winterfell and stole a horn from the King of Winter. Whether this horn was magic or not, this whole scenario can all be revealed by Bran looking into past or Bloodraven explaining it.
  • George might make Sam’s horn something else other than the Horn of Winter. This can be revealed if Bloodraven, who sent that horn to Jon, explains his reasoning. The horn came with the weapons that are anathema to the Others. As a result, one might expect the horn to be some magical device that can be used in the fight against the Others. A possible scenario: Sam’s horn might be the “strange sorcery” that the Night’s King bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. The King of Winter took this horn as a trophy and kept it at Winterfell until Joramun stole it. Bloodraven clearly is an “end justifies the means” type of guy. Therefore, to prevent the Sworn Brothers rebelling (which they did twice and murdered their Lord Commanders) or abandoning their posts when faced the full horror of the Others, Bloodraven can be expected to use such sorcery to bind these people to their posts and make sure that they follow orders. Another possible scenario is that Sam’s horn might be an earthquake generating device that is ineffective against the Wall (which Joramun learned the hard way) but it can be used to break into the warded caves of the children of the forest.
Conclusion

A horn bringing down the Wall is not compatible with George’s themes and writing style. Even if he originally thought to make use of a Horn of Doom to start the icy apocalypse, he must have given it up while tackling with the impossibly hard issues related to that scenario. A character-driven way to start the invasion of the Others is revealed by the retcon in Old Nan’s tales about the Wall, pointing a change of plans. Failure of the Night's Watch is a character-driven solution to the problem of removing the Wall as an obstacle to the invasion of the Others.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Sam's horn was the Horn of Winter somebody would have to bring it back to the Wall for it to trigger the fall of the Wall - and that's not all that likely to happen soon.

Not to mention that the idea the good guys - or even Euron - could bring down the Wall accidentally is not exactly a good plotline. That is more likely something the Others are going to arrange intentionally, either themselves or by means of another Craster-like person in their service.

Is the horn meant to bring down the Wall, though? Mance Rayder and the wildlings saying so doesn't make it true. 

As far as the legend goes, Joramun blew the horn once and it did nothing to the Wall. It did not break it and it did not destroy the magic inside it. 

The emphasis in Jon's thoughts has been put on "waking giants from the earth." Joramun blew the horn and woke giants from the earth. If the giants and the sleepers are one and the same, then it's part of the NW's vows. But we don't know what the giants are and what the sleepers are, so there's really no point in going down that road.

I doubt the Horn of Winter is meant to break the Wall. If it was, it would have been a heap of ice or a structure with no magic in it. The horn is called the Horn of Winter. Maybe it's the horn that NW sounds as a call to arms before it rides forth for the Battle of the Dawn. 

When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking. (Bran III, ACoK 21)

 

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28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Is the horn meant to bring down the Wall, though? Mance Rayder and the wildlings saying so doesn't make it true. 

As far as the legend goes, Joramun blew the horn once and it did nothing to the Wall. It did not break it and it did not destroy the magic inside it. 

The emphasis in Jon's thoughts has been put on "waking giants from the earth." Joramun blew the horn and woke giants from the earth. If the giants and the sleepers are one and the same, then it's part of the NW's vows. But we don't know what the giants are and what the sleepers are, so there's really no point in going down that road.

I doubt the Horn of Winter is meant to break the Wall. If it was, it would have been a heap of ice or a structure with no magic in it. The horn is called the Horn of Winter. Maybe it's the horn that NW sounds as a call to arms before it rides forth for the Battle of the Dawn. 

When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking. (Bran III, ACoK 21)

Yes, the Horn of Winter wakes the giants in the earth - and TWoIaF confirmed the idea that this means causing an earthquake. Joramun blowing it once would have also caused an earthquake - but, one assumes, an earthquake limited to the area where it was blown back then - which could have been hundreds or thousands of leagues away from the Wall.

But it is quite clear that a magical horn which can cause earthquakes is going to bring down the Wall if it is blown close enough to the Wall so that the resulting earthquake also affects the Wall.

Dragonbinder gives us an indication how magical horns work - they affect the area/beings within the area where the sound of the horn is heard.

In that sense chances are very low that anyone is ever going to sound Sam's horn near the Wall, especially since it is actually broken and cannot produce a sound.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonbinder gives us an indication how magical horns work - they affect the area/beings within the area where the sound of the horn is heard.

In that sense chances are very low that anyone is ever going to sound Sam's horn near the Wall, especially since it is actually broken and cannot produce a sound.

Yes, I'm not sure that the small horn is the Horn of Joramun.  But it's significant because it was found with the dragonglass cache.  I suspect this has more to do with binding someone to your will.  This may have something to do with the story of the Night King binding his brother's with strange magic.  I'm also not sure that brothers refers to the men of the Watch or the WW' or something else entirely.  The horn that wakes the sleepers?  Sleeper is also a word describing the dead.  

And does anyone else think the large horn that Melisandre purports to have burned has the characteristics of a dragon binding horn? 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Lady Melisandre watched him rise. "FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall." Two queen's men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Ygritte had told Jon that Mance never found the horn. She lied, or else Mance kept it secret even from his own.

Quote

The horn is six feet (1,83 meters) long. It is made from the horn of what must have been an enormous dragon. It has a black gleam, and is banded with red gold and Valyrian steel. When touched the horn feels warm and smooth. Its surface is shiny and reflective, though the reflection depicted is somehow twisted. The bands of the horn are covered by strange writings, Valyrian glyphs. When the horn sounds, the glyphs glow red-hot and then white-hot.[1]

The similarities stand out. 

Is it possible that Joramun owned both horns (the small and the large) and the stories about them or what they do are mixed up?

If Mance thinks he didn't find the horn; then perhaps he was looking for the small horn. 

Here's another horn:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

When they emerged from under the trees, Mormont spurred his tough little garron to a trot. Ghost came streaking out from the woods to meet them, licking his chops, his muzzle red from prey. High above, the men on the Wall saw the column approaching. Jon heard the deep, throaty call of the watchman's great horn, calling out across the miles; a single long blast that shuddered through the trees and echoed off the ice.

UUUUUUUoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

What kind of horn is this?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

He turned in his saddle. "Rory. Quiet them."

Rory lifted his great horn to his lips and blew.

AAAAhooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

 

Auroch's horn:

https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2017/8/2/f/f/f/ffffe960-71b8-4a8a-89a9-956cc84df7af.jpg

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hornlastaurochs1620.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...
  On 6/21/2020 at 2:04 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The emphasis in Jon's thoughts has been put on "waking giants from the earth." Joramun blew the horn and woke giants from the earth.

Thanks @Alexis-something-RoseI remember that Bran being told about the shafts in Bloodraven’s cave that leads to the center of the earth and different worlds below by the COTF. Could there be more..... of everything below? 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157249-middle-earth-in-westeros-grrm-meets-jrrt-and-jules-verne/

And there was some other posts similar to it too.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149756-middle-earth-replace-essos/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/154950-asoiaf-and-lotr-commentary-comparison-and-parallels/

And imagine my suprise when i found that the last topic was from @Aldarion

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On 6/20/2020 at 1:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

If Sam's horn was the Horn of Winter somebody would have to bring it back to the Wall for it to trigger the fall of the Wall - and that's not all that likely to happen soon.

I don’t agree. There are a few instances in Feast that link the Wall to the Hightower, including mentioning that it is rumored you can see the Wall from atop the Hightower. 
while you are indeed correct that this theory is not necessarily the consensus, assuming the horn has to be at the Wall is just conjecture.

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On 6/21/2020 at 3:27 AM, Loose Bolt said:

In Book of Joshua warriors of Israel destroy walls of Jericho using ram's horns (and that weird ritual). So that smaller horn might be similar size than those shofars mentioned in bible.

I hadn’t t thought of it but I think you are spot on with the Joshua reference and his wall tumbling down. What could be an amp up or parallel or inversion of that story?

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On 7/13/2020 at 3:32 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I don’t agree. There are a few instances in Feast that link the Wall to the Hightower, including mentioning that it is rumored you can see the Wall from atop the Hightower.

That is not the only house mentioned with a link to the Wall or Horn of winter, @Lady Rhodes. The Celtigars magic horn has been irking me for long ALONG WITH VALYRIAN STEEL AXE and the explanations don't convince me

  1. DRAGONBINDER + Horn of winter type is good
  2. SEA DRAGONS AND ICE DRAGONS ALONG WITH KRAKENS CAN BE CONTROLLED??
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