Star Wars: The Saga Continues

[mormont]

43 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

And I'm not a fan of twisting words to call everyone and everything a racist, but here we are.

Bitching about a secondary role lacking "nuance" or being useless to the plot is just a very bad way of beating around the bush. What Boyega is really trying to say is that he felt humiliated and demeaned when he realized he was the token black guy in StarWars.
If you want to criticize the systemic racism here, it was obviously in the casting, since the two leading roles were played by white actors. But to attack the writing for not fixing the casting is rather ridiculous.

Again, I think this misses the point Boyega is making.

Watch The Force Awakens. Look at the marketing, the trailer, the film itself. Boyega is correct. Finn is not a secondary role in that film. He is one of the three leads. He was cast as such.

And then... they didn't know what to do with his character. So they made choices. Choices that relegated him to a secondary role. Choices that made him into the token black character.

That wasn't the casting. That was the writing, the directing, the whole creative process on the latter two films.

[Vaughn]

58 minutes ago, mormont said:

Again, I think this misses the point Boyega is making.

Watch The Force Awakens. Look at the marketing, the trailer, the film itself. Boyega is correct. Finn is not a secondary role in that film. He is one of the three leads. He was cast as such.

And then... they didn't know what to do with his character. So they made choices. Choices that relegated him to a secondary role. Choices that made him into the token black character.

That wasn't the casting. That was the writing, the directing, the whole creative process on the latter two films.

100%. When there are so few Resistance members left at the end of tLJ that they can all fit in the Falcon, it's nonsense that suddenly there wasn't anything for them to do worth screen time in the last movie. If anything, they'd be even more central to the Resistance.

[Slurktan]

On a more positive note, here's how the Auralnauts would fix Empire:

 

The bit with Vader and Veers about R2D2 is amazing.

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Again, I think this misses the point Boyega is making.

Watch The Force Awakens. Look at the marketing, the trailer, the film itself. Boyega is correct. Finn is not a secondary role in that film. He is one of the three leads. He was cast as such.

And then... they didn't know what to do with his character. So they made choices. Choices that relegated him to a secondary role. Choices that made him into the token black character.

That wasn't the casting. That was the writing, the directing, the whole creative process on the latter two films.

But did it happen because Finn is black?  Or did it just so happen that Boyega was black?

Again, I also go back to the incompetence argument.  Finn the character is somewhat unique in that it doesn't matter what actor they got to play him.  He could have been just as irrelevant if he were white, Asian, or Latino.

The blame is on the writers for being incompetent overall.  He was cast in what originally appeared to be a prominent role and his race would seemingly not have played a role in that casting.  Even more than the writers though, the ultimate fault for the Finn character rests squarely with Kathleen Kennedy and the rest of the Disney execs that decided to launch a trilogy without even knowing where the story was going in the broadest of strokes.

[Caligula_K3]

I see the argument he's making for both movies, though more for Rise of Skywalker than The Last Jedi. Big chunks of the Finn and Rose section of the Last Jedi (Canto Blight) were terrible, but the characters did have significant screentime and character arcs, as did Po. Finn at least got some good scenes with the del Toro character, and I thought Po's arc was strong overall. Rey and Kylo get the best material in the movie, but it still does feel like the three characters are on equal footing as main characters. But I can see his point: why do the white actors get all the best material?

It is surprising that he doesn't blame JJ Abrams at all for Rise of Skywalker ("everybody needs to leave my boy alone. He wasn’t even supposed to come back and try to save your shit”), when that's the movie where the actors of colour not only got inferior plotlines but in some cases, next to nothing to do. But I guess he blames the writers and Disney for that rather than Abrams. Fair enough on that.

 

[Heartofice]

I think there is truth that Boyega was cast partly due to his race and I’m sure it was on Disney’s minds to have a central black character in the franchise, it certainly appears to have been sold to him that way, which is probably why he’s so peeved at how it turned out.

But the whole trilogy is a clusterf**k structurally and narratively. It is not surprising that whatever was planned before TFA came out didn’t come to pass by the end, due to the back and forth nature of the writing process. Seems to me that when trying to untangle the messy web of the plot, what happens to Finn falls by the wayside.

But at the same time, he might have gotten some screen time in TLJ, but everything about his plot seemed like a side story, and felt less than relevant. I think that movie did a massive disservice to Finn and he should be rightly annoyed by it. It was that movie that had him falling about like a clown, and pushed his character away from the important points of the story.

[Jaxom 1974]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

 

That wasn't the casting. That was the writing, the directing, the whole creative process on the latter two films.

To be totally fair, this should be attributed to all three films.  Once that sudden decision to keep Poe alive was made, everything shifted and eventual hurt the writing overall. 

[Rippounet]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

Again, I think this misses the point Boyega is making.

Watch The Force Awakens. Look at the marketing, the trailer, the film itself. Boyega is correct. Finn is not a secondary role in that film. He is one of the three leads. He was cast as such.

And then... they didn't know what to do with his character. So they made choices. Choices that relegated him to a secondary role. Choices that made him into the token black character.

You are correct, my bad.
Having rewatched TFA's trailer (no way I'm watching any of these movies again any time soon ), I was too quick to forget just how important Finn was supposed to be before TLJ came out. After all, it's true I was mildly surprised Finn turned out to be neither a force-wielder nor a resistance leader.
So I have it backwards here: Finn was indeed sold as one of the lead characters in TFA, and then became the token black character in TLJ and ROS.

It's just... as HoI puts it, the trilogy is a clusterfuck structurally and narratively, so picking out one specific mistake is a bit tricky.  But yeah, the more I think about it and the clearer it is that TLJ effectively sidelined Finn/Boyega by choosing to tell almost any other story than the growth of his character.

[karaddin]

Truly tRoS managed to pull off the impossible by uniting those who hated and loved TLJ in the realisation/agreement the entire trilogy is a clusterfuck. A uniquely influential achievement for our modern times.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Imho the sequel trilogy should have been set a thousand or so years after the original trilogy. People were too invested in the original characters that no matter what they did, there would be disappointment.

Had they done a big time jump they coukd have kept the EU (and thus not alienated fans who’ve kept the franchise alive in between films), had a clean slate tonwork with, and brought Luke/Leia back as Force ghosts.

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Imho the sequel trilogy should have been set a thousand or so years after the original trilogy. People were too invested in the original characters that no matter what they did, there would be disappointment.

Had they done a big time jump they coukd have kept the EU (and thus not alienated fans who’ve kept the franchise alive in between films), had a clean slate tonwork with, and brought Luke/Leia back as Force ghosts.

While I’ve always liked that idea, it would never have happened. Disney were always going to want to leverage the nostalgia junkies who just wanna see scenes of old Luke no matter what. So much of the internet chat was about what happened to the old characters, that shows where the interest lay.

Too much money on the line to not do it.

Having said that, a story 1000 years in the future would have given JJ more of an excuse to rehash old plots.. something something history repeating itself 

[mormont]

12 hours ago, Rhom said:

But did it happen because Finn is black?  Or did it just so happen that Boyega was black?

Did anyone sit down and say 'hey, let's screw over the black character, on purpose?' No. Was it purely a coincidence that the black character got screwed? You tell me. But if I'm a black professional in Hollywood and I look at how often the black/PoC character gets sidelined, never intentionally, but consistently it happens anyway: then yeah, like Boyega, I think I would justifiably reach the conclusion that the (almost entirely white) creatives and producers in charge just don't know how to write a nuanced character of colour, don't prioritise those characters creatively, and fall back into their comfort zone too often, meaning that PoC actors don't get a fair shake.

 

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, mormont said:

Did anyone sit down and say 'hey, let's screw over the black character, on purpose?' No. Was it purely a coincidence that the black character got screwed? You tell me

Did pretty much every single character in the sequel trilogy get screwed over by plot and character regardless of race.. the answer is yes. So really the argument doesn't hold a lot of water.

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

 I would justifiably reach the conclusion that the (almost entirely white) creatives and producers in charge just don't know how to write a nuanced character of colour

How does one write a nuanced character of colour in the Star Wars universe? It makes no sense. Finn's race is an irrelevance to the plot, which is part of the point. 

I'm not really sure what it is you are asking for here really. Could Finn's character have been better served by the story and given a better arc? Yes. You could say the same about everyone else too. Its unclear whether you are saying his character should be treated differently due to the colour of Boyegas skin? That of all the characters in the failed trilogy, he should be the one to have been awarded special treatment and written properly.

Actually the only real way to given a proper role to a black character would have been to make Rey black. Of course that would mess with a lot of the theorycrafting around her parents (no bad thing) but it could have worked. Her arc was bollocks as well so maybe it doesn't matter.
 

[red snow]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

Truly tRoS managed to pull off the impossible by uniting those who hated and loved TLJ in the realisation/agreement the entire trilogy is a clusterfuck. A uniquely influential achievement for our modern times.

It was a noble sacrifice on the part of Disney and those involved in making the movie. Weirdly despite thinking TLJ was the worst of the three, tRoS is the only Star Wars film I haven't seen more than once. It's one that doesn't sit well with time.

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Did pretty much every single character in the sequel trilogy get screwed over by plot and character regardless of race.. the answer is yes. So really the argument doesn't hold a lot of water.

How does one write a nuanced character of colour in the Star Wars universe? It makes no sense. Finn's race is an irrelevance to the plot, which is part of the point. 

I'm not really sure what it is you are asking for here really. Could Finn's character have been better served by the story and given a better arc? Yes. You could say the same about everyone else too. Its unclear whether you are saying his character should be treated differently due to the colour of Boyegas skin? That of all the characters in the failed trilogy, he should be the one to have been awarded special treatment and written properly.

Actually the only real way to given a proper role to a black character would have been to make Rey black. Of course that would mess with a lot of the theorycrafting around her parents (no bad thing) but it could have worked. Her arc was bollocks as well so maybe it doesn't matter.
 

I agree with the sentiment that it should be irrelevant what the skin colour is in the star wars universe - especially if they are carrying over our constructed prejudices which have no basis. Although they do have to ensure that they don't accidentally carry any of that baggage over eg white folk/men having all the key roles. I think, on the whole it's simply bad writing like you say. The sad thing is that Finn's character was woefully mistreated which is crazy as he was by far the most charismatic of the new leads. Arguably more so when JJ Abrams did a great job of introducing him then discarded him in the last film. There was also a load of interesting backstory there regarding a child soldier who'd been brainwashed. Maybe better explored in TV. I sort of hope they will follow some of the sequel trilogy characters further at some point but it's probably unlikely at the moment with the sour taste in everyone's mouths. Then again we are getting a Ewan kenobi show so never say never.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

How does one write a nuanced character of colour in the Star Wars universe? It makes no sense. Finn's race is an irrelevance to the plot, which is part of the point. 

I think we all agree that skin color shouldnt matter in a fantasy or scifi setting. However the bias is carried over from the humans who live in our reality, and that that's hard to argue against, since pretty much every major fantasy and scifi epic is jammed full of white people. 

On the other hand, bad writing and virtually zero nuance is still an issue with the new trilogy, no matter the character's skin color. 

Both of these things can be true at the same time, and are, imho. 

[Heartofice]

It’s a problem of Disney’s own creation though. As mentioned above by tying this trilogy to the OT they almost made it inevitable that white characters would be central to the plot, because they were so intent on linking OT characters to new ones, often by birth.

Plus there was an obvious push to create a diverse cast by Disney, and it leaves them open to the criticism of tokenism if they don’t follow through. They didn’t follow through and so should rightly be criticised for their tokenism! 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

It’s a problem of Disney’s own creation though.

Yeah, I don't disagree. They fucked the whole thing up, pretty spectacularly, from all angles. 

[DaveSumm]

My issue with the ST is that they just aren’t sequels. There’s nothing consequential tying them to episodes I-VI, other than that they happened to feature some characters from the OT, who were gradually killed off. It would have been better to make them a separate trilogy (though less marketable) and not be beholden to last minute attempts to justify it by just throwing ‘Skywalker’ on the end of our protagonist’s name. It’s a real shame, as the bare bones were there to make something worthwhile. 

I am struggling to see the racism in what happened to Finn’s character. The films featured a bunch of characters, and they all got written badly and aimlessly except Rey, because she had to be written with an arc just to stop the trilogy being an unmitigated failure. Or to put it another way, had Finn been white (ignoring how that would’ve gone down for TFA), his arc would’ve been exactly the same. There was no equivalent arc in the OT and so nothing to steal from, so they didn’t know what to do with him.

[Week]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

I am struggling to see the racism in what happened to Finn’s character. 

Did you read the GQ piece? https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/john-boyega-interview-2020

He talks about A LOT more than solely the character as written (although that is problematic). To narrowly question the 'racism' as 'what happened to Finn's character' is missing the point. Deliberately if you've read the article -- misinformed, if you have not.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

Did you read the GQ piece? https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/john-boyega-interview-2020

He talks about A LOT more than solely the character as written (although that is problematic). To narrowly question the 'racism' as 'what happened to Finn's character' is missing the point. Deliberately if you've read the article -- misinformed, if you have not.

I read the Star Wars bit of his interview. What are you specifically referring to here?