Star Wars: The Saga Continues

[sologdin]

but its setting is not a static fey otherworld, but a full secondary creation?

[polishgenius]

It became that as Lucas piled stuff on, but it was never created from the ground up that way. Despite the LotR reference. And even as it became a more realised setting technological consistency was never a concern.

[DaveSumm]

I’m a way into season 2 of Clone Wars, I hadn’t even considered that there’d be character development of the ‘film’ characters but now Anakin gets some slightly evil scenes, with some Vader music? God this is so much better than the prequels. I’m dreading finishing and having to see Hayden Christensen in the role again. Honestly I think if someone hadn’t seen Star Wars I’d just say the prequels were the Clone Wars that ended with a live action film (RotS), I can’t think of anything really necessary that happens in I or II now.

Feels like quite a step up from Season 1 (although I’m watching chronologically so my perception is a little wonky), the whole arc from 204-208 particularly was really good.

[karaddin]

There's also a model upgrade midway through season 3 so the look improves as well as the plot getting more mature. The series does all the heavy lifting of selling why Anakin would have been vulnerable to falling and I really didn't expect that at all.

It also manages to show that he's actually a war hero that would be known by all the clones rather than just an arrogant kid, but also the underlying personality flaws that are abusive and controlling to Padme and his extreme jealousy. I'm not sure if you're past the first ones that really start showing that or not.

[Nictarion]

Speaking of Clone Wars Padme, she seems to be the only character where the voice actor isn’t anywhere close to their movie counterparts voice. It kind of throws me off a bit. 

Other than that I’m mostly liking it. On season 3 now. 

[karaddin]

The voice work done in Rebels for Vader in a particular scene and (Rebels spoiler - just that this character is in it)

Spoiler

Obi-Wan (short but excellent appearance)

Is just *chefs kiss*. Perfect blending of different sources.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

The voice work done in Rebels for Vader in a particular scene and (Rebels spoiler - just that this character is in it)

  Hide contents

Obi-Wan (short but excellent appearance)

Is just *chefs kiss*. Perfect blending of different sources.

Don't forget for 

Spoiler

Palpatine

 

[karaddin]

Yeah, and

Spoiler

James Earl Jones did the regular Vader stuff. The blending I'm thinking of is the mix of Vader and Anakin when Ahsoka breaks his mask and OBW being a perfect bridge between McGregor and Guiness. I think I saw an interview with Witwer (Maul's VA) that OBW wasn't even chosen deliberately, they hadn't decided how they were doing him yet and it was just the script read opposite Maul and it was perfect.

 

[TheLastWolf]

Are the Sith really bad?

What do they say? Don't suppress the emotions that make you human. It is normal to feel fear, hate, anger and such. Channel it. Only Palpatine uses them for amoral needs and makes his disciples do the same.

I remember, wasn't there a good Sith or 2?

Star Wars portrays them as cartoonishly evil like the Slavers Bay Ghiscari slavers from ASOIAF.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Are the Sith really bad?

What do they say? Don't suppress the emotions that make you human. It is normal to feel fear, hate, anger and such. Channel it. Only Palpatine uses them for amoral needs and makes his disciples do the same.

I remember, wasn't there a good Sith or 2?

Star Wars portrays them as cartoonishly evil like the Slavers Bay Ghiscari slavers from ASOIAF.

I’ve posted about this before but I think it’s a huge flaw of all the movies that we have no idea what the dark side really is, or what it feels like to be seduced by it. It really weakens Return of the Jedi to have the Emperor constantly talk about turning Luke to the dark side, and it has zero tension as we don’t know how that would even happen. Anakin just kinda ... is cool with killing kids one day. Kylo Ren looks like he’s taking a shit when he talks to his Dad, and we’re supposed to assume there’s some internal struggle happening there. But what is it, what does it feel like? What’s the allure? How is it tied to a complete loss of morals? 

I assume the dark side provides a short cut to power, that reinforcing your strength with negative emotions beefs up your force strength. But you’re then swamped with these emotions, and they consume you. But Vader seems quite calm and methodical for the most part, he doesn’t seem like someone whose emotions are clouding his judgement. The closest we get is Luke getting angry and pressing Vader back, but who really thought that scene could conclude with Luke declaring “oh shit, the power! Yea I get it now. OK I’m all yours Palps.”

Also I assume that the prophecy of ‘bringing balance to the force’ refers to Luke and not Anakin as Qui-Gon thought. What does he actually do to achieve that? Does he manage to keep both ends of the spectrum of emotion in check? Was the idea that he would be immune in some way, that he could change the way the dark side was viewed?

[Heartofice]

I always had a sense of what the Dark Side was as a kid watching the OT. I think the clever part of it is that it taps into a sense of right and wrong that even I understood as an 8 year old. The OT doesn’t really go all out to explain how things work or lay on levels of detail and it was all the better for it.

No need to over think that shit

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I remember, wasn't there a good Sith or 2?

More than 2, it turns out. 

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/15678/has-there-ever-been-a-good-sith

https://reelrundown.com/movies/top-10-good-sith-in-star-wars

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I’ve posted about this before but I think it’s a huge flaw of all the movies that we have no idea what the dark side really is, or what it feels like to be seduced by it. It really weakens Return of the Jedi to have the Emperor constantly talk about turning Luke to the dark side, and it has zero tension as we don’t know how that would even happen. Anakin just kinda ... is cool with killing kids one day. Kylo Ren looks like he’s taking a shit when he talks to his Dad, and we’re supposed to assume there’s some internal struggle happening there. But what is it, what does it feel like? What’s the allure? How is it tied to a complete loss of morals? 

I assume the dark side provides a short cut to power, that reinforcing your strength with negative emotions beefs up your force strength. But you’re then swamped with these emotions, and they consume you. But Vader seems quite calm and methodical for the most part, he doesn’t seem like someone whose emotions are clouding his judgement. The closest we get is Luke getting angry and pressing Vader back, but who really thought that scene could conclude with Luke declaring “oh shit, the power! Yea I get it now. OK I’m all yours Palps.”

Also I assume that the prophecy of ‘bringing balance to the force’ refers to Luke and not Anakin as Qui-Gon thought. What does he actually do to achieve that? Does he manage to keep both ends of the spectrum of emotion in check? Was the idea that he would be immune in some way, that he could change the way the dark side was viewed?

Interesting. Enough to beat boredom till tomorrow. 

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

No need to over think that shit

Opinions differ 

[Werthead]

Engagement with the intricacies of the Force, the Dark Side/Light Side/Grey Side and the moral relativism of the setting became inevitable the second it expanded beyond the original trilogy. Good guys good, bad guys bad is perfectly fine up to a point, but when they switched to worldbuilding mode and expanding the history backwards tens of thousands of years and forwards decades, everyone involved felt they needed to delve a bit deeper into the Force and what it meant. Even George Lucas seems to have agreed with that.

That led to the two Knights of the Old Republic games and, in particular, Matt Stover's novels, which are among the best Star Wars stories ever written, so that paid off (Rebels also touches on those elements, to a lesser extent).

[argonak]

On 9/27/2020 at 1:38 AM, DaveSumm said:

I’ve posted about this before but I think it’s a huge flaw of all the movies that we have no idea what the dark side really is, or what it feels like to be seduced by it. It really weakens Return of the Jedi to have the Emperor constantly talk about turning Luke to the dark side, and it has zero tension as we don’t know how that would even happen. Anakin just kinda ... is cool with killing kids one day. Kylo Ren looks like he’s taking a shit when he talks to his Dad, and we’re supposed to assume there’s some internal struggle happening there. But what is it, what does it feel like? What’s the allure? How is it tied to a complete loss of morals? 

I assume the dark side provides a short cut to power, that reinforcing your strength with negative emotions beefs up your force strength. But you’re then swamped with these emotions, and they consume you. But Vader seems quite calm and methodical for the most part, he doesn’t seem like someone whose emotions are clouding his judgement. The closest we get is Luke getting angry and pressing Vader back, but who really thought that scene could conclude with Luke declaring “oh shit, the power! Yea I get it now. OK I’m all yours Palps.”

Also I assume that the prophecy of ‘bringing balance to the force’ refers to Luke and not Anakin as Qui-Gon thought. What does he actually do to achieve that? Does he manage to keep both ends of the spectrum of emotion in check? Was the idea that he would be immune in some way, that he could change the way the dark side was viewed?

My rationalization is that the dark side is extraordinarily addictive.  Like other drugs, it basically over rides your sense of morality and your concious.  All you care about is your next hit.  And you get your hit by using the dark side.  Once you go down that path, "forever will it dominate your destiny."  You're never free of a drug addiction.  Even when you're not taking it, you're still an addict.  The Dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive."  Its not stronger than the light side, but it makes you feel stronger.

If Luke had fully fallen to the dark side, then he'd have been cool with Palpatine, because Palpatine would have offered to teach him (and give him) more power.  And that's what Dark Side Luke would have wanted, more hits of that Dark Side Drug.  His morals that tell him what Palpatine does is wrong and that the Empire should be destroyed would be turned off, suppressed by his addiction.  Palpatine wanted to offer Luke all the things that a Dark Side addict wants, why would Luke say no?  In Luke's new Dark Side mind state, he would rationalize "I can always kill him later," or that he could "fix the empire from the inside."  But eventually he wouldn't have cared, because who he was would have been completely corrupted by his addiction.

As to the prophecy, it might not have even been real.  Most of the jedi were suspicious of it.  On the one hand the jedi treat the Force like a religion, but on the other they also recognize that it has a scientific connection.  People who have the right genetic disposition have higher midichlorian counts and then are able to be taught to use the force.  So which is it?  

At the end of the day though, as consumers of the story we have to make our own sense of it, or abandon rationality entirely.  This is just how I connected the dots that Lucas laid out, others probably see it differently.

[Leofric]

5 hours ago, argonak said:

My rationalization is that the dark side is extraordinarily addictive.  Like other drugs, it basically over rides your sense of morality and your concious.  All you care about is your next hit.  And you get your hit by using the dark side.  Once you go down that path, "forever will it dominate your destiny."  You're never free of a drug addiction.  Even when you're not taking it, you're still an addict.  The Dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive."  Its not stronger than the light side, but it makes you feel stronger.

If Luke had fully fallen to the dark side, then he'd have been cool with Palpatine, because Palpatine would have offered to teach him (and give him) more power.  And that's what Dark Side Luke would have wanted, more hits of that Dark Side Drug.  His morals that tell him what Palpatine does is wrong and that the Empire should be destroyed would be turned off, suppressed by his addiction.  Palpatine wanted to offer Luke all the things that a Dark Side addict wants, why would Luke say no?  In Luke's new Dark Side mind state, he would rationalize "I can always kill him later," or that he could "fix the empire from the inside."  But eventually he wouldn't have cared, because who he was would have been completely corrupted by his addiction.

As to the prophecy, it might not have even been real.  Most of the jedi were suspicious of it.  On the one hand the jedi treat the Force like a religion, but on the other they also recognize that it has a scientific connection.  People who have the right genetic disposition have higher midichlorian counts and then are able to be taught to use the force.  So which is it?  

At the end of the day though, as consumers of the story we have to make our own sense of it, or abandon rationality entirely.  This is just how I connected the dots that Lucas laid out, others probably see it differently.

Interesting take, I like it.    But based on that, if Darth Vader had survived after saving Luke and killing the Emperor, there is a good chance he would have relapsed and returned to his Dark Side addiction and turned against Luke and Leia as they would have been obstacles to him getting his next fix.   

[DaveSumm]

I quite like the take as well, although it got me wondering; how much did Vader and Palpatine really use the force before the events of A New Hope, or before the rebellion? Vader maybe is getting his hands dirty, but you don’t picture Palpatine actively getting into fights and electrocuting people too often. It seems like the entire infrastructure of the empire is doing all the actual work of oppressing people, it just happens to be run by a Sith. What constitutes ‘using’ the force, what do you need to do for a fix?

[Toth]

10 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I quite like the take as well, although it got me wondering; how much did Vader and Palpatine really use the force before the events of A New Hope, or before the rebellion? Vader maybe is getting his hands dirty, but you don’t picture Palpatine actively getting into fights and electrocuting people too often. It seems like the entire infrastructure of the empire is doing all the actual work of oppressing people, it just happens to be run by a Sith. What constitutes ‘using’ the force, what do you need to do for a fix?

If we are going by this analogy, then Sith Lords are highly functioning addicts, are they not? The difference between some random shmuck drunk on the Dark Side and and a Sith Lord is that the latter have mastered the art of manipulating their own emotions to use the Dark Side in very deliberate short bursts without turning into chaotic evil maniacs.

I'm also thinking that the addicting part is not active displays of Force powers, but instead indulging in your enhanced emotions. Vader somewhat games the system by concentrating on his self-hatred in order to prevent himself from loosing control. Meanwhile Palpatine is said to have gotten his kicks from controlling and manipulating people for his own amusement and that's something that is not hard to imagine.

[argonak]

16 hours ago, Leofric said:

Interesting take, I like it.    But based on that, if Darth Vader had survived after saving Luke and killing the Emperor, there is a good chance he would have relapsed and returned to his Dark Side addiction and turned against Luke and Leia as they would have been obstacles to him getting his next fix.   

I think with family support he'd have been able to stay strong.  Lots of addicts are able to recover and live their lives again as the people they are without drugs.  But it would have been a huge struggle.

 

16 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I quite like the take as well, although it got me wondering; how much did Vader and Palpatine really use the force before the events of A New Hope, or before the rebellion? Vader maybe is getting his hands dirty, but you don’t picture Palpatine actively getting into fights and electrocuting people too often. It seems like the entire infrastructure of the empire is doing all the actual work of oppressing people, it just happens to be run by a Sith. What constitutes ‘using’ the force, what do you need to do for a fix?

In legends Vader is using the dark side constantly just to stay in control of his wrecked body and deal with all the pain.  Also in legends Palpatine is mind controlling huge portions of the imperial military leadership at all times.   But I think at the very least Palpatine would have to be using the force a lot just to stay in control and ahead of Vader, who Palpatine knows whats to kill him and take over.

 

5 hours ago, Toth said:

If we are going by this analogy, then Sith Lords are highly functioning addicts, are they not? The difference between some random shmuck drunk on the Dark Side and and a Sith Lord is that the latter have mastered the art of manipulating their own emotions to use the Dark Side in very deliberate short bursts without turning into chaotic evil maniacs.

I'm also thinking that the addicting part is not active displays of Force powers, but instead indulging in your enhanced emotions. Vader somewhat games the system by concentrating on his self-hatred in order to prevent himself from loosing control. Meanwhile Palpatine is said to have gotten his kicks from controlling and manipulating people for his own amusement and that's something that is not hard to imagine.

Yeah I would say so.  But the dark side isn't like alcohol, which makes you weaker, its more like Meth which actually (to a degree) enhances you in certain ways.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Just rewatched thr proginal and prequel trilogies (will poojt out all thr plotholes in Empire that noatalgia blinds everyone to when bitching about the new trilogy).

What dod occur to me at the end of Jedi is, given the ewoks wanted to eat Han, did they assume Vader’s funeral pyre was Luke’s contribution to the victory feast?

[DaveSumm]

I finished out my chronological watch of Clone Wars with a RotS/S7:9-12 mega movie. It was fun splicing it together like that, although I’d say it’s the Clone Wars that benefits from seeing what else is going on, not the other way around. It doesn’t improve anything in RotS (maaaybe the the CW wonderful take on Order 66).

I’m not sure I’d seen RotS all the way through. I don’t understand why it’s regarded as the best of the prequels ... it’s just chock full of iconic moments that had to happen, but none are executed well. The dialogue is just as bad (“my powers have doubled since we last met” / “from my point of view the Jedi are evil”), the performances much the same (maybe Ewan McGregor has relaxed into Obi Wan a little more and has more fun), and the lightsaber battles are pretty bad. Windu vs the Emperor? What the fuck? He brings three other Jedis who look like they’ve never held a saber and get slaughtered immediately, the Emperor seems to be challenging himself to pull a more ridiculous face every time he thrusts, and Windu looks like he’s out of breath the whole time. It’s really bad.

It’s a damn tragedy to see the Clone Wars so carefully build up aspects of Anakin that could’ve been more interesting. His temper, his sympathy with a stronger military to end the war sooner, his respect for Moff Tarkin. They did what they could but ultimately, there’s no fixing RotS. Anakin is tempted by the power to save Padme, she’ll be dead in, what, a few months? Darth Plagueis is a legend, possibly an entire myth, but nah we’ll figure out this power by then I’m sure. He doesn’t seem in much of a hurry. Go and kill some younglings first you say? Sure, no problem. I mean I’m only here to save my wife, that’s the only motive this movie has given me, but sure! Kill some kids, sounds cool.

I was way more engaged with Ahsoka and Rex, and Ahsoka / Maul is very comfortably the best lightsaber duel in the mega movie (possibly a contender for best ever). And the final scene of CW was way more poignant than anything in RotS, it was very well judged. CW has heart, while the movie just sleepwalks soullessly from one event to another.

Anyway, onwards and upwards ... Solo, then Rebels.