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TheLastWolf

Where are Dark sister and Blackfyre?

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3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Rohanne webber is Old Nan theory is in conflict with yours

And I have a theory that Old Nan is Alysanne (Nan) Stark, daughter of Beron Stark, younger sister of Willam (his first wife, Lyanne Glover, died in childbirth. And their son was Brandon Stark, who died later from summer chill, aged three years old. Old Nan was his wet-nurse. She was his aunt, and his milk-mother), and older sister of Rodrik (the Wandering Wolf).

In one of his tree-visions Bran saw a tall knight kissing with a brown-haired girl. That knight, as tall as Hodor, was Duncan the Tall, and Brienne and Hodor are his descendants from Alysanne Stark. Events of The She-Wolves of Winterfell are happening soon after The Mystery Knight, and The Sworn Sword was happening in 211, at that time Rohanne was 25 years old. And she just recently got married with Eustas Osgrey. Thus she definitely wasn't that girl, that was kissing with Dunk at Winterfell. Aged 25+, Rohanne was far from being a girl, her hair was red not brown, at that time she was with her husband, Eustas, in the Reach, and after that she married with Gerold Lannister, and from 211-219 to 229 was giving birth to his four sons. The hell is she Old Nan :rolleyes:

Duncan and Alysanne never married. Probably something happened, and they got separated under dire circumstances. He never knew that she was pregnant, and later gave birth to his child, or rather to his children. He wanted to have a family, so if he knew that he had children, he wouldn't have became a Kingsguard. Probably, her family made her to marry with some other guy, when Dunk left Winterfell and after his departure turned out that Alysanne is pregnant. So everyone was made to believe that those children are the children of Alysanne's husband. She remained married to him, and later did gave birth to more children, this time really her husband's.

I think, that Dunk and Nan had twins. Because Dunk's father, Daemon I Blackfyre, had a set of twins as his first children, Aegon and Aemon, born in 184. Daemon's father's, Aegon's, sister-wife, Naerys, also gave birth to twins, in 161, then more twins in 172. Possibly Aegon's four daughters, born my Merry Meg, were also sets of twins. Two of Bellegere Otherys' children, fathered by Aegon, also could have been twins, same as Bloodraven's sisters, Mya and Gwenis.

It is known that Old Nan had sons and daughters. Her daughters moved away and died. Her two sons died during Robert's Rebellion. Her grandson died during Greyjoy Rebellion. Hodor is her great-grandson. So I assume that Duncan's children were a girl and a boy. His son died in Robert's Rebellion, that son's son died in Greyjoy's Rebellion, and that son's grandson, Dunk's and Nan's great-grandson is Hodor/Walder (GRRM said that names with ae are Valyrian, Walder, which could be in this case a clue that Hodor is a dragonseed). Duncan's daughter moved away from Winterfell, married elsewhere, and her descendants are Wenda/Meris, Brienne, and Cleganes, Sandor and Gregor (Dunk's descendant is either their mother, or their father). Sandor was born in 270 or 271, and Gregor was born in 265 or 266. Brienne was born in 280. Hodor's age is unknown, though considering that he is a great-grandson of Old Nan, and she was a wet-nurse of Brandon, thus her own (Dunk's) children were about same age as Brandon, and Brandon's half-sibling, Edwyle, is Ned Stark's grandfather, so Ned's great-grandfather, is from about the same generation as Old Nan/Alysanne, who was Willam's younger sister. <- what all that means is that Hodor is either approximately same age as Ned, or he is a bit younger than Ned, because Alysanne was Willam's younger sibling. Based on significant age difference between Ned(Hodor) and Brienne, it seems that Wenda/Meris is Old Nan's great-granddaughter, while Brienne is one generation further, she is Old Nan's and Dunk's great great-granddaughter. Dunk was 10 or so years older than Egg, Jon Snow, who is Egg's great great-grandson, is about same age as Brienne (she's 19-20, he's 15-16). Gregor and Sandor are 10-15 years older than Brienne, so they seems to be Old Nan's great grandchildren, same as Hodor and Meris. Thus one of Cleganes' parents, the one who was Old Nan's descendant, is about the same age as Nan's other grandchild, the one who died in Greyjoy Rebellion. So, one of Nan's daughters, had a child/children, and that person is a parent of Gregor and Sandor, and another one is Meris's parent.

Thus, their family tree is something like this:

Daemon I Blackfyre + Daenerys Targaryen | Beron Stark + Lorra Royce

Duncan the Tall + Alysanne Stark (Old Nan)

son (died in Robert's Rebellion), daugher (moved away); son born from Nan's husband (also died in Robert's Rebellion), another daughter (also moved away)

grandson (died in Greyjoy's Rebellion), Cleganes' parent and her/his siblings.

Hodor, Gregor, Sandor, Meris

Brienne

 

Duncan | Egg

daughter | Jaehaerys

children | Aerys

Meris | Rhaegar

Brienne | Jon

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

And I have a theory that Old Nan is Alysanne (Nan) Stark, daughter of Beron Stark, younger sister of Willam (his first wife, Lyanne Glover, died in childbirth. And their son was Brandon Stark, who died later from summer chill, aged three years old. Old Nan was his wet-nurse. She was his aunt, and his milk-mother), and older sister of Rodrik (the Wandering Wolf).

In one of his tree-visions Bran saw a tall knight kissing with a brown-haired girl. That knight, as tall as Hodor, was Duncan the Tall, and Brienne and Hodor are his descendants from Alysanne Stark. Events of The She-Wolves of Winterfell are happening soon after The Mystery Knight, and The Sworn Sword was happening in 211, at that time Rohanne was 25 years old. And she just recently got married with Eustas Osgrey. Thus she definitely wasn't that girl, that was kissing with Dunk at Winterfell. Aged 25+, Rohanne was far from being a girl, her hair was red not brown, at that time she was with her husband, Eustas, in the Reach, and after that she married with Gerold Lannister, and from 211-219 to 229 was giving birth to his four sons. The hell is she Old Nan :rolleyes:

Duncan and Alysanne never married. Probably something happened, and they got separated under dire circumstances. He never knew that she was pregnant, and later gave birth to his child, or rather to his children. He wanted to have a family, so if he knew that he had children, he wouldn't have became a Kingsguard. Probably, her family made her to marry with some other guy, when Dunk left Winterfell and after his departure turned out that Alysanne is pregnant. So everyone was made to believe that those children are the children of Alysanne's husband. She remained married to him, and later did gave birth to more children, this time really her husband's.

I think, that Dunk and Nan had twins. Because Dunk's father, Daemon I Blackfyre, had a set of twins as his first children, Aegon and Aemon, born in 184. Daemon's father's, Aegon's, sister-wife, Naerys, also gave birth to twins, in 161, then more twins in 172. Possibly Aegon's four daughters, born my Merry Meg, were also sets of twins. Two of Bellegere Otherys' children, fathered by Aegon, also could have been twins, same as Bloodraven's sisters, Mya and Gwenis.

It is known that Old Nan had sons and daughters. Her daughters moved away and died. Her two sons died during Robert's Rebellion. Her grandson died during Greyjoy Rebellion. Hodor is her great-grandson. So I assume that Duncan's children were a girl and a boy. His son died in Robert's Rebellion, that son's son died in Greyjoy's Rebellion, and that son's grandson, Dunk's and Nan's great-grandson is Hodor/Walder (GRRM said that names with ae are Valyrian, Walder, which could be in this case a clue that Hodor is a dragonseed). Duncan's daughter moved away from Winterfell, married elsewhere, and her descendants are Wenda/Meris, Brienne, and Cleganes, Sandor and Gregor (Dunk's descendant is either their mother, or their father). Sandor was born in 270 or 271, and Gregor was born in 265 or 266. Brienne was born in 280. Hodor's age is unknown, though considering that he is a great-grandson of Old Nan, and she was a wet-nurse of Brandon, thus her own (Dunk's) children were about same age as Brandon, and Brandon's half-sibling, Edwyle, is Ned Stark's grandfather, so Ned's great-grandfather, is from about the same generation as Old Nan/Alysanne, who was Willam's younger sister. <- what all that means is that Hodor is either approximately same age as Ned, or he is a bit younger than Ned, because Alysanne was Willam's younger sibling. Based on significant age difference between Ned(Hodor) and Brienne, it seems that Wenda/Meris is Old Nan's great-granddaughter, while Brienne is one generation further, she is Old Nan's and Dunk's great great-granddaughter. Dunk was 10 or so years older than Egg, Jon Snow, who is Egg's great great-grandson, is about same age as Brienne (she's 19-20, he's 15-16). Gregor and Sandor are 10-15 years older than Brienne, so they seems to be Old Nan's great grandchildren, same as Hodor and Meris. Thus one of Cleganes' parents, the one who was Old Nan's descendant, is about the same age as Nan's other grandchild, the one who died in Greyjoy Rebellion. So, one of Nan's daughters, had a child/children, and that person is a parent of Gregor and Sandor, and another one is Meris's parent.

Thus, their family tree is something like this:

Daemon I Blackfyre + Daenerys Targaryen | Beron Stark + Lorra Royce

Duncan the Tall + Alysanne Stark (Old Nan)

son (died in Robert's Rebellion), daugher (moved away); son born from Nan's husband (also died in Robert's Rebellion), another daughter (also moved away)

grandson (died in Greyjoy's Rebellion), Cleganes' parent and her/his siblings.

Hodor, Gregor, Sandor, Meris

Brienne

 

Duncan | Egg

daughter | Jaehaerys

children | Aerys

Meris | Rhaegar

Brienne | Jon

Very interesting stuff all around. But we don’t know and how long in the past Bran was looking when seeing the possible Dunk/Alysanne kiss. I am of belief that Old Nan is Rhonne. Can we pinpoint a time frame when that vision was? If we go back to that chapter:

 

A) His young father praying with a bowed head "…let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them, and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive."

B)A girl and a younger boy play fighting with branches. Most likely Lyanna and Benjen playing as kids


C) A pregnant woman coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her.


D) A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor.


E) A pale, dark-eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows.


F) Other lords of Winterfell: tall, hard, stern men in fur and chain mail; A bearded man forcing a captive down on his knees, and a white-haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle

 

We can tell the first vision is pretty recent and E) is around 300 years ago. IF its going back from most recent, what could C be? 

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3 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Very interesting stuff all around. But we don’t know and how long in the past Bran was looking when seeing the possible Dunk/Alysanne kiss. I am of belief that Old Nan is Rhonne. Can we pinpoint a time frame when that vision was? If we go back to that chapter:

 

A) His young father praying with a bowed head "…let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them, and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive."

B)A girl and a younger boy play fighting with branches. Most likely Lyanna and Benjen playing as kids


C) A pregnant woman coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her.


D) A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor.


E) A pale, dark-eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows.


F) Other lords of Winterfell: tall, hard, stern men in fur and chain mail; A bearded man forcing a captive down on his knees, and a white-haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle

 

We can tell the first vision is pretty recent and E) is around 300 years ago. IF its going back from most recent, what could C be? 

Bran's vision seems to have a chronological order, closest to present to past.  Most of the posts I've read believe that Old Nan is the slender girl kissing a knight as tall as Hodor, which may be the tell in this if there is one.  I've read the next D&E book was supposed to be about the she wolves of Winterfell.  I don't have the patience for all these appendixes and family trees, but Preston Jacobs did a really interesting video on who the potential she-wolves could be.   If his research is correct, the pregnant woman emerging from the Black pool would occur after D&E ease on down the kings road.  I only bring this up because there was an idea that the pale youth in your option E was the bastard brother of Torhen Stark, about 300 years back.  Problem is bronze as weapons hasn't been commonly employed since before the Andals, thousands of years in the past.  The bronze sicle could of course be a ceremonial thing, but it doesn't speak well to dual visions within a decade of each other.  I wish I could point you to the post as it was really good.  I reckon there is maybe 10 years between the first and second visions and roughly 75 years to option D, the slender girl.   In my estimation that would put C somewhere 10 years after that.  If there is a pattern, that is.   There are some excellent analyses of Bran's weirwood visions on this forum if you care to look into the visions further.   

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3 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

We can tell the first vision is pretty recent and E) is around 300 years ago. IF its going back from most recent, what could C be? 

"He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her."

If it happened between a vision with Benjen and Lyanna as kids, and Dunk kissing with Alysanne, then that pregnant woman could be Arya Flint, wife of the Wandering Wolf Rodrik Stark. He went away to Essos, where he became a sellsword with the Second Sons. Maybe she asked Old Gods to give her a son, for that son to go and kill Rodrik, for leaving her. But Gods gave her two daughters, Branda and Lyarra. So, the answer to her prayers was - No.

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31 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Problem is bronze as weapons hasn't been commonly employed since before the Andals, thousands of years in the past.  The bronze sicle could of course be a ceremonial thing, but it doesn't speak well to dual visions within a decade of each other. 

You're mistaking it with steel. Andals brough steel, not bronze. First Men used bronze extensively.

"

Military

The First Men wielded bronze swords[14] and great bronze axes.[29][30] They were armored in bronze as well,[31][32]

"

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3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You're mistaking it with steel. Andals brough steel, not bronze. First Men used bronze extensively.

"

Military

The First Men wielded bronze swords[14] and great bronze axes.[29][30] They were armored in bronze as well,[31][32]

"

Try reading what I said before replying.   Wasn't addressing you at all.

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16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Try reading what I said before replying.   Wasn't addressing you at all.

Please don't draw your steel... or my post may get reported for encouragement of:fencing:. And all are just theories, so, Peace bro! 

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"Problem is bronze as weapons hasn't been commonly employed since before the Andals, thousands of years in the past."

"You're mistaking it with steel. Andals brough steel, not bronze. First Men used bronze extensively."

Defense not offense.  

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18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran's vision seems to have a chronological order, closest to present to past.  Most of the posts I've read believe that Old Nan is the slender girl kissing a knight as tall as Hodor, which may be the tell in this if there is one.  I've read the next D&E book was supposed to be about the she wolves of Winterfell.  I don't have the patience for all these appendixes and family trees, but Preston Jacobs did a really interesting video on who the potential she-wolves could be.   If his research is correct, the pregnant woman emerging from the Black pool would occur after D&E ease on down the kings road.  I only bring this up because there was an idea that the pale youth in your option E was the bastard brother of Torhen Stark, about 300 years back.  Problem is bronze as weapons hasn't been commonly employed since before the Andals, thousands of years in the past.  The bronze sicle could of course be a ceremonial thing, but it doesn't speak well to dual visions within a decade of each other.  I wish I could point you to the post as it was really good.  I reckon there is maybe 10 years between the first and second visions and roughly 75 years to option D, the slender girl.   In my estimation that would put C somewhere 10 years after that.  If there is a pattern, that is.   There are some excellent analyses of Bran's weirwood visions on this forum if you care to look into the visions further.   

E) Is Brandon Snow 

The bronze weapons indicate this is the First Men and before the Andals came to Westeros. I believe in that specific vision, Bran is seeing (blood sacrifice obviously) and the making of the Night King (Coldhands) 

18 hours ago, Megorova said:

"He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her."

If it happened between a vision with Benjen and Lyanna as kids, and Dunk kissing with Alysanne, then that pregnant woman could be Arya Flint, wife of the Wandering Wolf Rodrik Stark. He went away to Essos, where he became a sellsword with the Second Sons. Maybe she asked Old Gods to give her a son, for that son to go and kill Rodrik, for leaving her. But Gods gave her two daughters, Branda and Lyarra. So, the answer to her prayers was - No.

Hmmm interesting ok. I like that it could be Arya Flint preggo or some stark wife. Whats the proof that Alysanne fathered Dunks children (one of the being Old nan)

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2 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Whats the proof that Alysanne fathered Dunks children (one of the being Old nan)

What? Does that, what you wrote in (...) - is one of them, one of Dunk's children, Old Nan?

I meant that Old Nan IS Alysanne, and Duncan's "paramour".

There is no proof of that. Same as there is no proof that Jon Snow is a child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Though, there are circumstantial evidences to both of those theories.

1. It is known that Duncan had visited Winterfell some time shortly after 212. He was kissing there with a girl. At that time he was 19+, and it wasn't his first kiss (he kissed Rohanne Webber, and prior that some girl in a tavern). Thus, it's likely that they didn't stopped with just kisses. Duncan fell in love with Tanselle Too Tall. And was separated with her. Then he liked Rohanne, but she married with Eustas. If Dunk again met a girl that he liked, then I doubt that he remained a virgin even after finding his third love interest. They both were young and inexperienced. She was second daughter and fifth out of six children of Lord Stark. Nobody was watching after her. And she was naive enough to fall in love and get hooked with a randon guy, that was passing thru Winterfell, and got pregnant with his child/children. And realised it too late, when he already went away, and when it was too late to abort. She was Lord's fifth child, no one expected to marry her with a Prince, or someone significant, even before her fuck-up. So, for propriety's sake her family married her, with one of their retainers, maybe even with a servant from Winterfell. Probably, they were supposed to leave soon after she would have birthed those children. But then Nan's sister-in-law, Lyanne Glover, died in childbirth, and Willam kept his sister as a wet-nurse for his newlyborn son, Brandon. And she remained at Winterfell even after little Brandon later died from summer chill. For three years after Brandon's birth, his cousins, Nan's son and daughter, were living amongst other Starks, thus eventually Willam and Nan's other relatives softened up and forgave her, and let her stay. Life went on, later she gave birth to her husband's children. It all happened more than 80 years ago, so no one knows nor remembers that Old Nan originally was one of Starks, not just a mere servant of their household. And she herself never mentioned it to Stark-children, because it's not the sort of thing to be discussed with anyone, and what would be the point? -> she stopped being a Stark after getting married. Maybe her family even abdicated her after what she did, but later, even when they forgave her, she wasn't a Stark anymore, not one of them, not their equal.

2. Old Nan said that her daughters moved away. And it is known that Brienne is one of Dunk's descendants. Thus, Brienne's mother is a descendant of one of those daughters. Brienne's father, Selvin, can't be Dunk's descendant. Because officially Duncan the Tall never had children, otherwise he wouldn't have been accepted into Kingsguard. Duncan never knew about those children. And thus, his descendants never anywhere claimed or could have claimed that they are bloodrelated to Duncan the Tall. Selvin Tarth is a Tarth, descended from Lords of Tarth that ruled before him. It's his wife/mistress, who is a "stray dog", and an unknown descendant from Duncan's bastards.

3. Look at the family tree of House Stark.

Beron had seven children: Donnor, Willam, Berena, Artos, Alysanne, Errold, Rodrik.

Willam's son, Edwyle. Alysanne's son, Hodor III (Hodor is Hodor I, and his grandfather, that fought in the Robert's Rebellion, is Hodor III, while Hodor's father, who fought in Greyjoy Rebellion, is Hodor II). Rodrik's daughter, Lyarra.

Edwyle, Hodor III, Lyarra.

Rickard (Ned's father), Hodor II, Brandon (Ned's older brother, son of Lyarra and Rickard).

Ned, Hodor I, Robb (Arya's brother).

There's a "shift" in generations because of age difference between siblings. ->

Alysanne is younger than Willam, and older than Rodrik. Same applies to further generations. Hodor III is younger than Edwyle, and older than Lyarra. Hodor II is younger than Rickard, and older than Brandon. Hodor I is younger than Ned, and older than Robb.

Hodor I, Hodor II, Hodor III, and Alysanne/Old Nan they are kind of between generations, if compared with the main branch of Stark family tree. The same thing, as with the family tree of Targaryens, with the children of Aerys and Rhaella. There is 24 years age difference between Rhaegar and Daenerys. By the time when Dany was born, her brother already had three children (Rhaenys, Aegon, Jon). Same thing with the child of Rodrik Stark, Alysanne's younger brother. By the time when she (Lyarra) was born, Rodrik's older brother, Willam, already had a grandchild, and Lyarra married with him - with Rickard.

Hodor's specific age is unknown, though it is obvious that he is aged between Ned and Robb.

Because - Hodor's grandfather (Hodor III) and great-uncle (Old Nan's second son) weren't too old to participate in Robert's Rebellion (while Ned's grandfather at that time was already dead, died from old age. Thus, Ned is older than Hodor, same as Ned's grandfather was older than Hodor's grandfather), and Hodor's father (Hodor II) was not too old to participate in Greyjoy Rebellion. They (Hodor III and his brother) were approximately Edwyle's age (Rickard's father/Ned's grandfather), though a bit younger. Thus, their mother was a bit younger than Willam (Edwyle's father). And Alysanne Stark was Willam's younger sister.

So it all fits. If you understood what I wrote. -> Ned's great-grandfather, Willam, is a bit older than his sister Alysanne, and Hodor is a bit younger than Ned, so Hodor's great-grandmother, Old Nan, is a bit younger than Willam Stark, same as Willam's sister Alysanne, thus Old Nan could be Alysanne Stark. Based on ages, even though specific ages of Hodor and Old Nan are not known.

4. Alysanne - Ann - Nan.

She was little Brandon's wet-nurse. He died when he was 3 years old. Old enough to speak, but not old enough to say "Alysanne", thus instead he was calling her Nan. She was Nan, and then aged, and became Old Nan.

It's similar to how Dunk got his name. He's not Duncan.

The Hedge Knight -

" "Dunk," he said.

The wretched boy laughed aloud, as if that was the funniest thing he'd ever heard. "Dunk?" he said. "Ser Dunk? That's no name for a knight. Is it short for Duncan?"

Was it? The old man had called him just Dunk for as long as he could recall, and he did not remember much of his life before. "Duncan, yes," he said. "Ser Duncan of . . ." Dunk had no other name, nor any house; Ser Arlan had found him living wild in the stews and alleys of Flea Bottom. He had never known his father or mother. What was he to say? "Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom" did not sound very knightly. He could take Pennytree, but what if they asked him where it was? Dunk had never been to Pennytree, nor had the old man talked much about it. He frowned for a moment, and then blurted out, "Ser Duncan the Tall." He was tall, no one could dispute that, and it sounded puissant."

Dunk is not short for Duncan. "Dunk" is what he remembers from his early childhood, a place where he was, prior he was "lost" at King's Landing/left there by Quentyn Ball's assassin, sent by Bloodraven to stop him from delivering Daemon Blackfyre's child to a safe-house. The child's mother was Daenerys Targaryen. Daemon's demands to legitimize his bastard, was the real reason of the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Because King Daeron refused. If it became known that Daemon had an affair with Daenerys, it could have caused a civil war with Dorne. And Daeron's wife was Dornish, and his children were half-Dornish. Thus, he couldn't have let that happen. Quentyn Ball, master-at-arms of Red Keep was "Dunk's" caretaker, same as the other master-at-arms of Targaryens, Willem Darry, was a caretaker of little Dany and Viserys, when they lived in Braavos. Dunk was born at Water Gardens in Dorne, and when he was 2-3 years old, he was brought to his father, to area somewhere near Duskendale. That's where Daemon Blackfyre had a tract of land, given to him as a wedding present from King Daeron.

Words mumbled by childish speech - Dun Fort of Duskendale - Dunk.

While Brienne was there (in Dunskendale) in AFFC, she painted her shield with a sigil of Duncan the Tall.

 

" "All castles," said the captain's sister. "The only one I know is the Dun Fort by the harbor. I made t'other in my head, what a castle ought to look like. I never seen a dragon neither, nor a griffin, nor a unicorn." She had a cheerful manner, but when Brienne showed her the shield her face went dark. "My old ma used to say that giant bats flew out from Harrenhal on moonless nights, to carry bad children to Mad Danelle for her cookpots. Sometimes I'd hear them scrabbling at the shutters." She sucked her teeth a moment, thoughtful. "What goes in its place?"

The arms of Tarth were quartered rose and azure, and bore a yellow sun and crescent moon. But so long as men believed her to be a murderess, Brienne dare not carry them. "Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father's armory." She described the arms as best she could recall them.

The woman nodded. "I can paint it straightaway, but the paint will need to dry. Take a room at the Seven Swords, if it please you. I'll bring the shield to you by morning."

...

The captain's sister found her in the common room, drinking a cup of milk and honey with three raw eggs mixed in. "You did beautifully," she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father's armory. She remembered how she'd run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star."

 

So, Nan is not her name, and her paramour's real name wasn't Dunk. Don't they suit each other? ^_^

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On 6/24/2020 at 12:54 AM, zandru said:

I think we've confirmed that Bryndan (Targaryen) Rivers did take Dark Sister to the Wall when he took the black. Why would he be "allowed"? Man, he was effin' BLOODRAVEN! One thousand eyes and one. Skinwalker. Sorcerer. I imagine the other Targaryens were just glad that he actually went to the Wall, without coercion.

 

Egg could have got BR's head chopped off, he got him captive. Unless it all was just a show for people, perhaps planned form A to Z by Rivers :) But I dont believe it. 

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

What? Does that, what you wrote in (...) - is one of them, one of Dunk's children, Old Nan?

I meant that Old Nan IS Alysanne, and Duncan's "paramour".

There is no proof of that. Same as there is no proof that Jon Snow is a child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Though, there are circumstantial evidences to both of those theories.

1. It is known that Duncan had visited Winterfell some time shortly after 212. He was kissing there with a girl. At that time he was 19+, and it wasn't his first kiss (he kissed Rohanne Webber, and prior that some girl in a tavern). Thus, it's likely that they didn't stopped with just kisses. Duncan fell in love with Tanselle Too Tall. And was separated with her. Then he liked Rohanne, but she married with Eustas. If Dunk again met a girl that he liked, then I doubt that he remained a virgin even after finding his third love interest. They both were young and inexperienced. She was second daughter and fifth out of six children of Lord Stark. Nobody was watching after her. And she was naive enough to fall in love and get hooked with a randon guy, that was passing thru Winterfell, and got pregnant with his child/children. And realised it too late, when he already went away, and when it was too late to abort. She was Lord's fifth child, no one expected to marry her with a Prince, or someone significant, even before her fuck-up. So, for propriety's sake her family married her, with one of their retainers, maybe even with a servant from Winterfell. Probably, they were supposed to leave soon after she would have birthed those children. But then Nan's sister-in-law, Lyanne Glover, died in childbirth, and Willam kept his sister as a wet-nurse for his newlyborn son, Brandon. And she remained at Winterfell even after little Brandon later died from summer chill. For three years after Brandon's birth, his cousins, Nan's son and daughter, were living amongst other Starks, thus eventually Willam and Nan's other relatives softened up and forgave her, and let her stay. Life went on, later she gave birth to her husband's children. It all happened more than 80 years ago, so no one knows nor remembers that Old Nan originally was one of Starks, not just a mere servant of their household. And she herself never mentioned it to Stark-children, because it's not the sort of thing to be discussed with anyone, and what would be the point? -> she stopped being a Stark after getting married. Maybe her family even abdicated her after what she did, but later, even when they forgave her, she wasn't a Stark anymore, not one of them, not their equal.

2. Old Nan said that her daughters moved away. And it is known that Brienne is one of Dunk's descendants. Thus, Brienne's mother is a descendant of one of those daughters. Brienne's father, Selvin, can't be Dunk's descendant. Because officially Duncan the Tall never had children, otherwise he wouldn't have been accepted into Kingsguard. Duncan never knew about those children. And thus, his descendants never anywhere claimed or could have claimed that they are bloodrelated to Duncan the Tall. Selvin Tarth is a Tarth, descended from Lords of Tarth that ruled before him. It's his wife/mistress, who is a "stray dog", and an unknown descendant from Duncan's bastards.

3. Look at the family tree of House Stark.

Beron had seven children: Donnor, Willam, Berena, Artos, Alysanne, Errold, Rodrik.

Willam's son, Edwyle. Alysanne's son, Hodor III (Hodor is Hodor I, and his grandfather, that fought in the Robert's Rebellion, is Hodor III, while Hodor's father, who fought in Greyjoy Rebellion, is Hodor II). Rodrik's daughter, Lyarra.

Edwyle, Hodor III, Lyarra.

Rickard (Ned's father), Hodor II, Brandon (Ned's older brother, son of Lyarra and Rickard).

Ned, Hodor I, Robb (Arya's brother).

There's a "shift" in generations because of age difference between siblings. ->

Alysanne is younger than Willam, and older than Rodrik. Same applies to further generations. Hodor III is younger than Edwyle, and older than Lyarra. Hodor II is younger than Rickard, and older than Brandon. Hodor I is younger than Ned, and older than Robb.

Hodor I, Hodor II, Hodor III, and Alysanne/Old Nan they are kind of between generations, if compared with the main branch of Stark family tree. The same thing, as with the family tree of Targaryens, with the children of Aerys and Rhaella. There is 24 years age difference between Rhaegar and Daenerys. By the time when Dany was born, her brother already had three children (Rhaenys, Aegon, Jon). Same thing with the child of Rodrik Stark, Alysanne's younger brother. By the time when she (Lyarra) was born, Rodrik's older brother, Willam, already had a grandchild, and Lyarra married with him - with Rickard.

Hodor's specific age is unknown, though it is obvious that he is aged between Ned and Robb.

Because - Hodor's grandfather (Hodor III) and great-uncle (Old Nan's second son) weren't too old to participate in Robert's Rebellion (while Ned's grandfather at that time was already dead, died from old age. Thus, Ned is older than Hodor, same as Ned's grandfather was older than Hodor's grandfather), and Hodor's father (Hodor II) was not too old to participate in Greyjoy Rebellion. They (Hodor III and his brother) were approximately Edwyle's age (Rickard's father/Ned's grandfather), though a bit younger. Thus, their mother was a bit younger than Willam (Edwyle's father). And Alysanne Stark was Willam's younger sister.

So it all fits. If you understood what I wrote. -> Ned's great-grandfather, Willam, is a bit older than his sister Alysanne, and Hodor is a bit younger than Ned, so Hodor's great-grandmother, Old Nan, is a bit younger than Willam Stark, same as Willam's sister Alysanne, thus Old Nan could be Alysanne Stark. Based on ages, even though specific ages of Hodor and Old Nan are not known.

4. Alysanne - Ann - Nan.

She was little Brandon's wet-nurse. He died when he was 3 years old. Old enough to speak, but not old enough to say "Alysanne", thus instead he was calling her Nan. She was Nan, and then aged, and became Old Nan.

It's similar to how Dunk got his name. He's not Duncan.

The Hedge Knight -

" "Dunk," he said.

The wretched boy laughed aloud, as if that was the funniest thing he'd ever heard. "Dunk?" he said. "Ser Dunk? That's no name for a knight. Is it short for Duncan?"

Was it? The old man had called him just Dunk for as long as he could recall, and he did not remember much of his life before. "Duncan, yes," he said. "Ser Duncan of . . ." Dunk had no other name, nor any house; Ser Arlan had found him living wild in the stews and alleys of Flea Bottom. He had never known his father or mother. What was he to say? "Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom" did not sound very knightly. He could take Pennytree, but what if they asked him where it was? Dunk had never been to Pennytree, nor had the old man talked much about it. He frowned for a moment, and then blurted out, "Ser Duncan the Tall." He was tall, no one could dispute that, and it sounded puissant."

Dunk is not short for Duncan. "Dunk" is what he remembers from his early childhood, a place where he was, prior he was "lost" at King's Landing/left there by Quentyn Ball's assassin, sent by Bloodraven to stop him from delivering Daemon Blackfyre's child to a safe-house. The child's mother was Daenerys Targaryen. Daemon's demands to legitimize his bastard, was the real reason of the First Blackfyre Rebellion. Because King Daeron refused. If it became known that Daemon had an affair with Daenerys, it could have caused a civil war with Dorne. And Daeron's wife was Dornish, and his children were half-Dornish. Thus, he couldn't have let that happen. Quentyn Ball, master-at-arms of Red Keep was "Dunk's" caretaker, same as the other master-at-arms of Targaryens, Willem Darry, was a caretaker of little Dany and Viserys, when they lived in Braavos. Dunk was born at Water Gardens in Dorne, and when he was 2-3 years old, he was brought to his father, to area somewhere near Duskendale. That's where Daemon Blackfyre had a tract of land, given to him as a wedding present from King Daeron.

Words mumbled by childish speech - Dun Fort of Duskendale - Dunk.

While Brienne was there (in Dunskendale) in AFFC, she painted her shield with a sigil of Duncan the Tall.

 

" "All castles," said the captain's sister. "The only one I know is the Dun Fort by the harbor. I made t'other in my head, what a castle ought to look like. I never seen a dragon neither, nor a griffin, nor a unicorn." She had a cheerful manner, but when Brienne showed her the shield her face went dark. "My old ma used to say that giant bats flew out from Harrenhal on moonless nights, to carry bad children to Mad Danelle for her cookpots. Sometimes I'd hear them scrabbling at the shutters." She sucked her teeth a moment, thoughtful. "What goes in its place?"

The arms of Tarth were quartered rose and azure, and bore a yellow sun and crescent moon. But so long as men believed her to be a murderess, Brienne dare not carry them. "Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father's armory." She described the arms as best she could recall them.

The woman nodded. "I can paint it straightaway, but the paint will need to dry. Take a room at the Seven Swords, if it please you. I'll bring the shield to you by morning."

...

The captain's sister found her in the common room, drinking a cup of milk and honey with three raw eggs mixed in. "You did beautifully," she said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father's armory. She remembered how she'd run her fingertips across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star."

 

So, Nan is not her name, and her paramour's real name wasn't Dunk. Don't they suit each other? ^_^

Hmmm with the timeline going I guess it makes sense it would make sense it was one of the Stark children. How did Dunk end up no flea bottom, If he was brought to Duskendale?

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13 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

How did Dunk end up no flea bottom, If he was brought to Duskendale?

My guess is that Duncan was conceived in the end of 193 (or first days of 194), when Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen attended tournament at King's Landing, that was held in honor of King Daeron's 40th birthday (Daeron was born in 153).

It was that tournament on which Ser Arlan of Pennytree defeated the Bastard of Harrenhal and Lord Stokeworth. <- this is an important clue, because, I think, that the Bastard was not a bastard of House Lothston, rather he was a secret son of Jeyne Lothston and Jeyne's own father - Aegon IV. Jeyne was a Stokeworth thru her mother, Falena Stokeworth, who was one of Aegon's mistresses. So, Ser Arlan, who later became Dunk's master, in that Tournament defeating those two people, is a hint about Dunk's dragonseed ancestry. And there are many other clues that connect Harrenhal to secret dragonseeds (including Brienne and children of Minisa Whent - Cat, Lysa, and Edmure Tully; and Petyr Baelish, who is a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal, same as Tully-children. First Lord Whent of Harrenhal / Manfryd of the Black Hood / betrayer of Blackfyres / Manfryd legitimized as Lothston / Shella Whent's grandfather - this person is the Bastard of Harrenhal, defeated on that tournament by Ser Arlan).

Usually tournaments are held because of some special occasion - Ned becoming the Hand, Tenth year anniversary of Jaehaerys I's coronation, Wedding Tourney at Duskendale, Wedding Tourney at Whitewalls, Tourney for King Viserys I's accession, Great tourney on the fifth anniversary of King Viserys I and Queen Alicent's marriage, Tourney at King's Landing for the wedding of Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen and Ser Laenor Velaryon, Princess Daenerys' wedding Tourney (in 187), Tenth year anniversary of Aerys II's coronation, Tournament in honor of Viserys's birth, Tourney in celebration of Balon Greyjoy's defeat, Tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day. Tournament on King Daeron's name day (Big 40).

Daeron was born on the last day of 153. So the tournament, which probably lasted several days, was held in the end of 193 and the beginning of 194, and that's when Dunk was conceived. Afterwards Daenerys went back to Dorne, and later she realised that she's pregnant, and, based on the timing, knew that the child was Daemon's. So, to hid her pregnancy from her husband, Maron Martell, she went to Water Gardens, and was living there until she gave birth to Dunk, and for some time after that. Dunk was born approximately in October-November of 194. Some time after he turned one year old, in late 195, Daenerys sent him to his father to Crownlands. He arrived there in early 196. It takes approximately 2-3 months to travel from Water Gardens to Crownlands. Whoever Daenerys sent to deliver little Dunk to his father, didn't brought him straight to Daemon's house/mansion/castle, because Daemon's wife, Rohanne of Tyrosh, was there, as were his children. Thus that person temporarily settled Dunk somewhere in Duskendale, and then contacted Daemon.

When Daemon found out about Dunk's existence, he went to his King-brother, and asked him something - either to allow Daenerys to divorce with Maron and to become Daemon's second wife, or to legitimize Dunk as a Blackfyre, or to be officially acknowledged as the child of Daemon and Daenerys, or a combination of those things. After he made this revelation to Daeron, some time passed, either minutes, or hours, or days, weeks, months, and then Daeron sent Kingsguards to arrest Daemon. Probably Daeron refused Daemon's request, and some time after that Daemon started to plan a rebellion. According to the World Book - Daemon's decision to claim the throne had been made rashly, and word soon reached Daeron's court that Daemon meant to declare within a month. Daemon was able to escape imprisonment with the aid of Quentyn Ball. 

According to The Mystery Knight and The Sworn Sword Quentyn was killed by a common archer on the eve of the Battle at the Redgrass Field, when he stopped for a drink of water.

I think that shortly prior the decisive battle of the Rebellion, Daemon sent Quentyn to retrieve his son from Duskendale, and when Quentyn was transporting little Dunk, he got killed by an assassin. The person who killed him was:

- an assassin sent by Bloodraven;

- an assassin sent by Rohanne of Tyrosh;

- an assassin sent by Maron Martell;

- an assassin sent by King Daeron;

- one of Raventh Teeth;

- Bloodraven himself;

- other option.

The manner in which Dunk ended up at the Flea Bottom, depends on what were that person's intentions concerting Dunk, whether he intended to kill Dunk too, or just to make Dunk disappear, or to take Dunk to whoever sent him, for the master to use the baby as a hostage against Daemon. With Dunk gone, there would have been no reason for a civil war between Dorne and the rest of 7K, and no reason for Daemon to continue his Rebellion (at least that's, probably, what thought those, who sent that assassin).

Either at the time when Quentyn was killed, Dunk was with him, or maybe Dunk was still at the safe-house. In case of first option, the assassin took Dunk to King's Landing, and left him at the Flea Bottom, this way giving him a chance to survive. If Dunk was at the safe-house, possibly it was in King's Landing, then, when for a long time no one came to retrieve the baby (with Quentyn killed, Daemon killed, Rohanne and her children and Bittersteel gone to Essos), those people, that were supposed to look over Dunk, did the same thing as Braavosi servants of Willem Darry - when he died, they threw Dany and Viserys out of the house, stole everything valuable from it, and left. Or maybe Dunk's caretakers were decent people, unlike Darry's servants, but when the money, provided by Quentyn/Daemon run out, they had no other choice, aside from leaving Dunk to fend for himself. Or, maybe, if the assassin's intentions were to kill both Quentyn and Dunk, in case if Dunk was with Quentyn at the time of his death, then the assassin also tried to kill Dunk, though failed. For example, when Quentyn got off his horse to drink some water, or to bring water for Dunk, he got shot by that archer, and his horse got spooked and ran, carrying Dunk away. Or the assassin took Dunk and dropped him into a river to kill him. Though Dunk didn't drown, because he learned to swim even before he learned to walk - he was born and spent first year of his life at the Water Gardens with numerous swimming pools. If it was somewhere near King's Landing, then he was carried by a current to KL's area, and eventually ended up at the Flea Bottom, because that's where homeless orphans are residing. Or maybe the safe-house was at Duskendale, and that's where Dunk spent all that time since his arrival from Dorne, thru duration of the Blackfyre Rebellion (that lasted nearly a year), and maybe even some time after the Rebellion ended. He could have stayed there for as long as there were money for his caretakers to feed him, but when money were gone, they brought him to King's Landing, and left him at the Flea Bottom. And there are many other options.

What is common for all those possible options is that - 1. between the Water Gardens and the Flea Buttom, Dunk had spent extended period of time somewhere at Duskendale; 2. supposedly common archer, that killed Quentyn Ball, wasn't some random person, he was there specifically to kill Quentyne; 3. whether Dunk was with Quentyn at the time of assassination, on in a safe-house at King's Landing, or in a safe-house at Dunskendale, Quentyn was responsible for Dunk's care. So with Quentyn dead, Dunk got lost, either intentionally or accidentally, and eventually ended up at the Flea Bottom.

At the time when Rebellion ended, near the end of 196, Dunk was 2 years old. 

Either "dunk" is the way he was saying "Duskendale", and other kids thought that it was his own name, and started to call him that, and that's how he became Dunk, or there was some other story with "Dunk" at the centre of it.

For example, what if when Dunk got "lost", he had with him a letter/message, in it was written something about Dun Fort of Duskendale. Eventually some letters faded, or were erased, dissolved, when that letter got wet, or something like that, and what remained was -  DUN Fort of DusKendale. Several years later (approximately in late 198 or early 199, when passed 2 years since Arlan's previous squire got killed at the Redgrass Field in the end of 196), when Ser Arlan met Dunk at the Flea Bottom, Dunk still had that letter, and based on that DUNK, that was all that remained in the letter, he named the kid Dunk. According to Dunk, he was 5 or 6 years old, when Ser Arlan found him, which makes range 192-194 as possible years of his birth. Though Dunk is taller than other people, thus at that time he could have been younger than 5 or 6, even though he looked old enough to be that age, actually he was approximately 4 years old at that time, not 5 or 6.

Also I think that when Arlan found him, Dunk had a chipped garnet (a red gemstone), that was a stone from a pommel of Blackfyre sword. His father, Daemon, gave it to him, while they were at Duskendale. After Arlan's death, Dunk found that garnet amongst Arlan's posessions.

The Hedge Knight - "He had piled the old man's things under an oak. The cloth purse contained three silver stags, nineteen copper pennies, and a chipped garnet; as with most hedge knights, the greatest part of his worldly wealth had been tied up in his horses and weapons."

The Mystery Knight - "We have twenty-two pennies, three stars, one stag, and that old chipped garnet, ser."

Or I could be wrong, and Dunk isn't bloodrelated to Blackfyres/Targaryens. But that's nearly impossible.

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On 6/25/2020 at 2:46 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I think one of the swords may be hiding in plain sight. The explanation Jeor Mormont gave to Jon Snow about Longclaw and it's origins never quite made sense to me.

First, no other member of House Mormont ever mentions the sword. This especially applies to Jorah. He's always been very quick to mention the indignities of his past he suffered. It would've been especially pertinent when Dany promised him a Valyrian steel sword. Not to mention the minor detail that Jorah would blindingly desperate for money during the time he supposedly had this Valyrian steel sword, and Tywin Lannister was willing to pay a king's ransom for one.

Next, if the sword is what Jeor claims, why did he take it back to Castle Black after Jorah left it behind? He already made the choice to leave it behind, not suddenly he takes it back? I get there's not a male heir, but there may be some day. Taking it to castle Black is the one way to guarantee it never gets passed on to another Mormont. Not to mention the Mormonts seem perfectly fine with female warriors and heads of house. So not giving the sword to a female, even in a caretaker role, doesn't make much sense.

Last, it is completely convenient that all identifying marks were destroyed in that fire before the sword shows up in the story. Jeor's explanation makes sense to a casual inquiry, but the more you think about it, the less it really adds up. 

The descriptions don't match.   Dark Sister is a longsword, and one small enough for a woman to use, hence the name.  Longclaw is a bastard sword, larger and a good foot and a half longer than a longsword.  So unless Dark Sister somehow got bigger and longer, they're not the same.

As to the OP, I think Dark Sister is probably in the cave.  I doubt Meera has the training to use it, but Arya might.  And she is on something of a dark journey, so the name could fit. 

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What if Dark Sister and Blackfyre get forged into a new single sword?  It would be the opposite of what happened to Ice. 

Just got this crackpot idea.. :D

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Now that this topic has been discussed…..to the death, as some might feel, I feel that I’ve not voiced my opinion about the location of the swords, only asked questions. So I would like to make my views clear.

·         Dark Sister is neither at Winterfell’s crypts nor in Bloodraven’s lair/cave as some feel, but with Quaithe/Shiera, wherever she is, waiting for the right time, for Dany. Before/After that, DS may be wielded by Meera/Brandor/Arya.

·         Blackfyre is with fAegon, in the chest of candied ginger from Illyrio. Or was with the GC all the time. Either way, it’s for fAegon…..but only temporarily, I expect.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157367-the-symbolism-of-unlucky-numbers-in-planetos-and-their-link-to-the-12-hero-wielders-of-the-valyrian-steel-swords-in-the-final-battle/

My recent thread discusses the possible would-be wielders of the VS blades in the final battle. So I made my views on the wielders of DS and BF also clear.

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On 6/22/2020 at 6:50 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I'm betting fAegon will reveal Blackfyre in his possession at some point in the story. But that may be a double-edged sword (pun intended), since it's associated with House Blackfyre rather than House Targaryen. He probably won't reveal it until after he gets the Iron Throne.

If fAegon foolishly does that, get ready for fAegon the paranoid tyrant. He'd be just like Henry VII with a non-claim and desperately hanging on to his throne by any and all means. He would need to become a monster to those who he thinks he can't trust, those who deny his right to the throne, demand total submission from people who pledge loyalty and rule with an iron fist. He's been also shown as somewhat impulsive and temperamental, so it's not far fetched that's where he may end up if he's dumb enough to out himself. 

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