Ygritte's Shades

[TheLastWolf]

What were those 'Shades' which Ygritte told Jon had been released when the wildlings opened several crypts (emphasis on opened, not dug up, so it had to be crypts like those at Winterfell ,not graves) while searching for the Horn of Winter beyond the wall ? I have a theory or three about it.

1. Superstition. Plain superstition. Remember how people believe that taking the swords from the statues of the former Kings and Lords of Winterfell in its crypts would cause their ghosts to be released?Maybe what Ygritte meant was similar to it. I'm surprised that Jon never asked about it though.

2. Literal interpretation. I think the Others who might have been magically entombed in those crypts would have been released unintentionally while Mance&co. searched for Joramun's Horn. Not a strong theory this one I know ... but what Other(weak pun unintended) way did the Others appear all of a sudden after thousands of years. Why and how ? And how could Mance have fought them otherwise?

3. Coldhands- Something to do with Coldhands,CoTF and the TEC. Bran wold know soon I hope. And also Benjen Stark's disappearance might be linked to this, I think.

Share any related threads if you have.

 

[Springwatch]

You can 'open' a grave - or at least I've heard that way, so I won't insist on crypts.

I favour a fairly literal interpretation - there has been a steady flow of ghost references in the books so far. Also an increase in magic and sorcery, which we are told always comes at a price of blood or life or similar. Ghosts could be the victims/beneficiaries of that.

[Lluewhyn]

I lean towards #1 for a few reasons.

1. It makes sense for Ygritte to be speaking figuratively. If she was speaking literally, it's unlikely that such an important detail would just be a casual off-hand mention, either from Ygritte's perspective or GRRM's.

2. The Others aren't spirits or even undead. They're essentially Unseelie Fey. They simply use the undead as their minions.

3. I think Mance's group being responsible for the Others tends to make the Free Folk much less sympathetic in retrospect (and I find them somewhat unsympathetic already) if their own destructive actions are the reasons for why they are refugees being hunted by the Others. I personally lean towards Craster's sacrifices over the past 20 years or so being the contributing factor for why the Others are becoming a problem now.

There may be literal ghosts that were released from the crypts, but I don't think they're significant to the story.

[corbon]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

What were those 'Shades' which Ygritte told Jon had been released when the wildlings opened several crypts (emphasis on opened, not dug up, so it had to be crypts like those at Winterfell ,not graves) while searching for the Horn of Winter beyond the wall ? I have a theory or three about it.

As @Springwatch mentioned, you can open graves.

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

1. Superstition. Plain superstition. Remember how people believe that taking the swords from the statues of the former Kings and Lords of Winterfell in its crypts would cause their ghosts to be released?Maybe what Ygritte meant was similar to it. I'm surprised that Jon never asked about it though.

Largely its this one, though superstition could well be based on something more real, if still supernatural.
Its noticeable that the wildlings and Starks share similar cultural beliefs about the dead.

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

2. Literal interpretation. I think the Others who might have been magically entombed in those crypts would have been released unintentionally while Mance&co. searched for Joramun's Horn. Not a strong theory this one I know ... but what Other(weak pun unintended) way did the Others appear all of a sudden after thousands of years. Why and how ? And how could Mance have fought them otherwise?

This one is illogical I'm afraid. 
The reason they were searching for the horn in the first place was to find a way past the wall and get away from the Others. 
The Others were not released from the graves, they were already being fought and slowly lost to when Mance was uniting the wildlings, before they even began searching the graves.

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

3. Coldhands- Something to do with Coldhands,CoTF and the TEC. Bran wold know soon I hope. And also Benjen Stark's disappearance might be linked to this, I think.

Needs some evidence. There is none I've seen.

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Share any related threads if you have.

 

Sorry, the old threads don't seem to show up well in the search feature.

[Seams]

On 6/23/2020 at 7:03 AM, TheLastWolf said:

What were those 'Shades' which Ygritte told Jon had been released

Interesting topic.

Your question reminded me of Jon Snow finding the obsidian cache at the Fist - initially, he thought he was digging up a grave. He found an old horn in the bundle, of course, and readers have theorized that this unimpressive relic might be the real Horn of Joramun. But what if the obsidian dagger blades, spear points and arrow heads are forms of "shades"?

Similarly, there is a scene where Maester Luwin accompanies Bran and Osha into the crypt to show Bran that his dream about Ned is unfounded. There they find Rickon, and Shaggydog bites Maester Luwin. The group then ascends to Maester Luwin's chamber in the rookery, where he has been using his far eyes device to look at the comet. (Maybe the ravens are symbolic horns in this scene?) The maester gives Bran and Rickon some old obsidian arrow heads from a collection that he keeps in a jar.

In each case, the disturbing of graves is followed by discovery and distribution of obsidian.

I suspect that one of the most powerful categories of weapons in ASOIAF is comprised of both shadows and time. We have seen Melisandre's so-called shadow babies, but it is hard to pin down the nature of time as a weapon. If obsidian is a "shade," perhaps its association with rising from graves gives us a hint about the nature of time as a weapon. Its effectiveness as a weapon against some wights might also tell us something about shadows (and time?) as a weapon.

[TheLastWolf]

Quote

Your question reminded me of Jon Snow finding the obsidian cache at the Fist - initially, he thought he was digging up a grave. He found an old horn in the bundle, of course, and readers have theorized that this unimpressive relic might be the real Horn of Joramun. But what if the obsidian dagger blades, spear points and arrow heads are forms of "shades"?

@Seams, Those were recently buried (before Jon found them of course) by Coldhands on the orders of Bloodraven or so they say.How could they have been shades that Ygritte mentioned? and she would have said if it was dragonglass/obsidian directly.

[Lord Lannister]

I'm inclined to think it's superstition as well. Ygritte always looked at the world through a lens of wildling culture and belief more than anything else. 

[TheLastWolf]

@Lord Lannister

On 6/29/2020 at 11:24 AM, Lord Lannister said:

I'm inclined to think it's superstition as well. Ygritte always looked at the world through a lens of wildling culture and belief more than anything else. 

, what if Ygritte really knew something (unlike Jon who knew nothing other than the "lord's kiss") and it was not superstition? Could there be more of Coldhands type people there? And several of Nightfort mysteries are linked with Others and Nightking. Could Coldhands be released then? Could he be Symeon star eyes? 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143149-tales-of-the-night-fort/

[TheLastWolf]

Recently @Megorovaposted a post in a thread saying that Mance's red and black cloak was sewn by Shiera/Quaithe from Asshai as a preplan to fulfill Jon's destiny. The red silk link from asshai fits. What if Ygritte was Melisandre's daughter or something? Jon certainly has noted the similarity between Melisandre and Ygritte. What if Melisandre is being skinchanged by Shiera time to time.?

[TheLastWolf]

Does anyone think that this Shady business will have an impact on further plots at all? 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Does anyone think that this Shady business will have an impact on further plots at all? 

Not me.

[John Suburbs]

On 6/23/2020 at 7:03 AM, TheLastWolf said:

What were those 'Shades' which Ygritte told Jon had been released when the wildlings opened several crypts (emphasis on opened, not dug up, so it had to be crypts like those at Winterfell ,not graves) while searching for the Horn of Winter beyond the wall ? I have a theory or three about it.

1. Superstition. Plain superstition. Remember how people believe that taking the swords from the statues of the former Kings and Lords of Winterfell in its crypts would cause their ghosts to be released?Maybe what Ygritte meant was similar to it. I'm surprised that Jon never asked about it though.

2. Literal interpretation. I think the Others who might have been magically entombed in those crypts would have been released unintentionally while Mance&co. searched for Joramun's Horn. Not a strong theory this one I know ... but what Other(weak pun unintended) way did the Others appear all of a sudden after thousands of years. Why and how ? And how could Mance have fought them otherwise?

3. Coldhands- Something to do with Coldhands,CoTF and the TEC. Bran wold know soon I hope. And also Benjen Stark's disappearance might be linked to this, I think.

Share any related threads if you have.

 

It could be both 1 and 2. Ygritte is referring to superstition about opening graves and releasing shades (spirits) that want to be at rest, but she doesn't know that this also upset some kind of ward or disturbed some kind of magic that either allowed or prompted the Others to move south after all these centuries.

One possibility: the Others could sense that the graves were being disturbed and that this is, in fact, where the HoJ was kept. So whether it was the fancy one that Mel burned (doubtful), of the broken one that Sam has, it means that the weapon to bring down the Wall is now loose -- so it's time's to get into position if and when someone blows it.

[corbon]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It could be both 1 and 2. Ygritte is referring to superstition about opening graves and releasing shades (spirits) that want to be at rest, but she doesn't know that this also upset some kind of ward or disturbed some kind of magic that either allowed or prompted the Others to move south after all these centuries.

 

On 6/24/2020 at 2:03 PM, corbon said:

This one (2) is illogical I'm afraid. 
The reason they were searching for the horn in the first place was to find a way past the wall and get away from the Others. 
The Others were not released from the graves, they were already being fought and slowly lost to when Mance was uniting the wildlings, before they even began searching the graves.

 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

his one (2) is illogical I'm afraid. 
The reason they were searching for the horn in the first place was to find a way past the wall and get away from the Others. 
The Others were not released from the graves, they were already being fought and slowly lost to when Mance was uniting the wildlings, before they even began searching the graves.

 

No, there is no text that suggests the Others were active before Mance started defiling the crypts. His stated goal back then was to unite the wildlings to overthrow the Night's Watch, and retrieving the HoW was a means to that end. Why would he think destroying the Wall would provide protection from the Others? His own wife saw the folly in that argument, and Mance agrees that he will only blow the horn if he has no other choice. But he would have no qualms about using it if he did not know, nor even comprehend, that a threat like the Others existed.

So the irony in all of this is that the wilding clans started to consolidate around Mance only after the appearance of Others and wights, never knowing that Mance was the reason they returned in the first place.

[kissdbyfire]

20 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, there is no text that suggests the Others were active before Mance started defiling the crypts. His stated goal back then was to unite the wildlings to overthrow the Night's Watch, and retrieving the HoW was a means to that end. Why would he think destroying the Wall would provide protection from the Others? His own wife saw the folly in that argument, and Mance agrees that he will only blow the horn if he has no other choice. But he would have no qualms about using it if he did not know, nor even comprehend, that a threat like the Others existed.

So the irony in all of this is that the wilding clans started to consolidate around Mance only after the appearance of Others and wights, never knowing that Mance was the reason they returned in the first place.

As far as we know from the text, Mance had people digging and looking for the horn along the Milkwater. We also know Mance and the Free Folk weren’t just chilling near the Milkwater since AGoT. And we have Jeor Mormont tell Tyrion that WWs have been seen near EbtS in the first book. So, nope, the WWs have been active well before Mance and the Free Folk start looking for the horn.

AGoT, Tyrion III

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

 

ACoK, Jon IV

I do not mean to risk the Frostfangs unless I must," said Mormont. "Wildlings can no more live on snow and stone than we can. They will emerge from the heights soon, and for a host of any size, the only route is along the Milkwater. If so, we are strongly placed here. They cannot hope to slip by us."

ASoS, Jon VI

“Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think,” Maester Aemon said, “not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue.”
“It means lord,” Jon agreed. “Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn, in the far north of the Frostfangs. He has a hundred of his own men, and a score of raiders who know the Gift almost as well as we do. Mance never found the horn, though, that’s something. The Horn of Winter, that’s what he was digging for up along the Milkwater.”
Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. “The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?”
“They all do,” said Jon. “Ygritte said they opened a hundred graves . . . graves of kings and heroes, all over the valley of the Milkwater, but they never . . . ”

 

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

As far as we know from the text, Mance had people digging and looking for the horn along the Milkwater. We also know Mance and the Free Folk weren’t just chilling near the Milkwater since AGoT. And we have Jeor Mormont tell Tyrion that WWs have been seen near EbtS in the first book. So, nope, the WWs have been active well before Mance and the Free Folk start looking for the horn.

AGoT, Tyrion III

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

 

ACoK, Jon IV

I do not mean to risk the Frostfangs unless I must," said Mormont. "Wildlings can no more live on snow and stone than we can. They will emerge from the heights soon, and for a host of any size, the only route is along the Milkwater. If so, we are strongly placed here. They cannot hope to slip by us."

ASoS, Jon VI

“Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think,” Maester Aemon said, “not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue.”
“It means lord,” Jon agreed. “Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn, in the far north of the Frostfangs. He has a hundred of his own men, and a score of raiders who know the Gift almost as well as we do. Mance never found the horn, though, that’s something. The Horn of Winter, that’s what he was digging for up along the Milkwater.”
Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. “The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?”
“They all do,” said Jon. “Ygritte said they opened a hundred graves . . . graves of kings and heroes, all over the valley of the Milkwater, but they never . . . ”

 

At first, Mance had a small band of followers at best. They began opening the graves looking for the horn to take down the Wall and defeat the Nights Watch. There is no indication that any of this is in response to White Walkers.

By the time Jeor and Co. march north, of course, Mance has a huge following and most of the clans are with him. But this is only a recent development. If the walkers have been active for years and years, then why are rangers suddenly disappearing only recently? Why are the tales of walkers by the sea only getting back to the NW now? Why are the elk and giants, et al, only moving south now? Why haven't returning ranger been reporting empty villages for this whole time?

Sorry, but no, there is nothing in the text that suggests the walkers were active before Mance rebelled, and plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

At first, Mance had a small band of followers at best. They began opening the graves looking for the horn to take down the Wall and defeat the Nights Watch. There is no indication that any of this is in response to White Walkers.

By the time Jeor and Co. march north, of course, Mance has a huge following and most of the clans are with him. But this is only a recent development. If the walkers have been active for years and years, then why are rangers suddenly disappearing only recently? Why are the tales of walkers by the sea only getting back to the NW now? Why are the elk and giants, et al, only moving south now? Why haven't returning ranger been reporting empty villages for this whole time?

Sorry, but no, there is nothing in the text that suggests the walkers were active before Mance rebelled, and plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.

To the bold: can you provide some textual evidence? 
The rest of your post is just speculations based on assumptions. 

[John Suburbs]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

To the bold: can you provide some textual evidence? 
The rest of your post is just speculations based on assumptions. 

Honestly? You think Mance quit the watch and the very next day he had hundreds of thousands of wildlings at his side? The text says no:

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Jon 15, SoS

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. 

I'm afraid you're the one speculating here. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore" and you conclude that this happened years ago, but Mormont is only bringing it up now despite there having been no other sightings since then. Ygritte says "they" opened hundreds of graves and you conclude that this was when Mance was at full strength and that they did this to stop the Others, even though the horn does not affect them in any way other than to remove the one thing that can stop them.

So again, sorry Kiss, nice try, but no. There is nothing in the text that even hints that the graves were despoiled in response to the presence of Others, just that Mance opened them when he was launching his rebellion against the NW. Come on, if Mance knew for a fact that the Others were active at the time he quit, then other rangers would certainly know the same thing now, or their disappearances would have started happening years ago, not just the past couple of months.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Honestly? You think Mance quit the watch and the very next day he had hundreds of thousands of wildlings at his side? The text says no:

I'm afraid you're the one speculating here. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore" and you conclude that this happened years ago, but Mormont is only bringing it up now despite there having been no other sightings since then. Ygritte says "they" opened hundreds of graves and you conclude that this was when Mance was at full strength and that they did this to stop the Others, even though the horn does not affect them in any way other than to remove the one thing that can stop them.

So again, sorry Kiss, nice try, but no. There is nothing in the text that even hints that the graves were despoiled in response to the presence of Others, just that Mance opened them when he was launching his rebellion against the NW. Come on, if Mance knew for a fact that the Others were active at the time he quit, then other rangers would certainly know the same thing now, or their disappearances would have started happening years ago, not just the past couple of months.

The quote you provided does nothing to support your claim. 
And now I’ll ask for textual support for something else: where did I say the fisherfolk near Eastwatch saw the WWs years ago and only now Mormont brought it up? Don’t bother looking for it, I never said that. 

[corbon]

On 8/29/2020 at 4:03 AM, John Suburbs said:

No, there is no text that suggests the Others were active before Mance started defiling the crypts.

The Others have been active for many years. Craster and his sacrifices prove that.

There are no references to 'crypts' north of the wall. Zero. The wildlings are digging up graves, not defiling crypts. There is no indication of any type that this is not a recent thing too.

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His stated goal back then was to unite the wildlings to overthrow the Night's Watch,

I don't think his goal was stated. All he did at the start was make peace between factions and accrue power.

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and retrieving the HoW was a means to that end. Why would he think destroying the Wall would provide protection from the Others?

He doesn't want to destroy the wall. He wants to get over it.
I don't see any evidence he ever intended to actually blow the Horn and destroy the wall, only that it was a possible blackmail plan - he was trying anything and everything.
And to back that up - it was all a bluff anyway. They didn't actually find the real Horn of Joramund, at least, not that they thought.

Quote

So the irony in all of this is that the wilding clans started to consolidate around Mance only after the appearance of Others and wights, never knowing that Mance was the reason they returned in the first place.

 

You yourself pointed out that it took Mance years to assemble his host. And his host could not survive long assembled - North of the wall is not capable of sustaining that sort of population density for any significant amount of time. 
In other words, it took him years to assemble it and once assembled he moved it more or less immediately. (I expect much of the 'assembly' early on was in the form of promises and allegiances to move when the time came).

But the Others have been active for years too.

On 8/30/2020 at 6:14 AM, John Suburbs said:

At first, Mance had a small band of followers at best. They began opening the graves looking for the horn to take down the Wall and defeat the Nights Watch.

This is purely invented by you.
Ygritte is part of the wilding host that dug up the graves. There is nothing anywhere that remotely suggests that Mance had a crew there digging years and years back before he had assembled any significant following.
Its the host that we see digging and no evidence or suggestion of previous activity before the host assembled.

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There is no indication that any of this is in response to White Walkers.

The whole movement of the host southwards has been given urgency and necessity by the White Walkers.
Yes, Mance was coalescing power early on, but that didn't mean he was doing anything more than a standard push for power for normal reasons. 

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By the time Jeor and Co. march north, of course, Mance has a huge following and most of the clans are with him. But this is only a recent development.

Agreed.

Yet, despite this 'recent development' Mance has a great deal of experience fighting the dead - despite the wildings having suffered no attacks 'lately' (because the host of the dead was going after the Rangers at the FotFM).

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ASoS Jon II

". . . me?" finished Mance Rayder. "Aye, he was. Had I been fool enough to storm this hill, I might have lost five men for every crow I slew and still counted myself lucky." His mouth grew hard. "But when the dead walk, walls and stakes and swords mean nothing. You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me." He gazed up at the darkening sky and said, "The crows may have helped us more than they know. I'd wondered why we'd suffered no attacks. But there's still a hundred leagues to go, and the cold is rising. Varamyr, send your wolves sniffing after the wights, I won't have them taking us unawares. My Lord of Bones, double all the patrols, and make certain every man has torch and flint. Styr, Jarl, you ride at first light."

Quote

ADwD Jon XII

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

 

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If the walkers have been active for years and years, then why are rangers suddenly disappearing only recently?

Because there are few walkers and they have mostly been much further north (and on the west side of further north). The rangers range closer to the wall (relatively) for the most part. The Walkers originate in the Lands-of-Always-Winter far north and northwest and although they seem to have had 'scouts' further south from a long time ago their 'military' actions have been in a north/northwest-south/southeast direction. Hence the NW is not affected by their military actions until very late in the timeline.

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Why are the tales of walkers by the sea only getting back to the NW now?

Because the bulk of the Walker activity was further north (and west) than that before. Look at the map!

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Why are the elk and giants, et al, only moving south now?

Because they've been pushed out of the very far north now.

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Why haven't returning ranger been reporting empty villages for this whole time?

Basic map reading will answer that for you.

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Sorry, but no, there is nothing in the text that suggests the walkers were active before Mance rebelled,

There is textual evidence that the White Walkers have been active for years - which means they were active before the Wildling host assembled at

Quote

and plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.

None I can see at all.