US Politics: “How did we come to this...”

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, Triskele said:

So one of the BLM leaders called for destroying images of white Jesus.  As an atheist I've often laughed at white Jesus (dude was from Middle East!), perhaps I'm an asshole on that count, but this seems like a kind of pro Trump move / overreach.  Sounds like this tweet was a few days ago and no idea if anyone's followed through on this one yet.

Does white tuxedo t-shirt Jesus get a pass/grandfathered in?

50 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So this WaPo article (limited clicks) about Lindsey Graham's surprising show of backbone on the Berman firing makes an interesting point.  

Now that Graham no longer has to worry about a primary, you can argue that he never has to be beholden to Trump at all.  Trump wouldn't dare torpedo Graham in the general election, because no matter how irritating Graham might be, he is clearly less of a problem that Senator Harrison (D) would be.  And (barring something truly disastrous) Trump will not be President or even necessarily influential in the 2026 Senate primary.  I wonder if potentially the 6 year terms of senators might somehow start serving the function envisioned by the framers and actually allow them to exert a little independence.  If Trump were popular, this wouldn't matter, but if I were a guy like Graham or Cornyn, getting on record that you weren't a complete Trump lickspittle might be good politics for your political future.  Which is not something Trump has ever had to contend with before.  

Jokes aside, I'd like to push back a bit here. I think most likely, across most scenarios, you're correct. But Trump is still a wild card. Watching the news and reading various coverage of recent polling.....holy shit this is bad. Things can change quickly, and I still believe there will be a rally to Trump late in the race, but if his numbers are really this bad, who is to say he wouldn't nuke people in his own party just because he's a spiteful asshole? 

[Fragile Bird]

10 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I strongly doubt that people of Arabic descent are seen as "white" by the great majority of Americans, let alone themselves.

We had life-long Egyptian friends who pointed out that they are Aryan, which means by definition they are white.

[Ormond]

10 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I strongly doubt that people of Arabic descent are seen as "white" by the great majority of Americans, let alone themselves.

I just disagree with that. The official government definition is that natives of the Middle East and North Africa are "White", and most people of Arabic ancestry look generally Mediterranean, not very different from many Italians or Greeks, and almost all Americans would see them as "White". 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Conservatives have some sort of fantasy tied into the "Biden has dementia' strategy that Trump will wipe Biden in the debates leading to his resurgence in the polls. Of course, in reality Biden may stumble a little bit, while Trump does his usual third grade mashing of words into some stream of consciousness gibberish. In the end, it will not convince anyone and the numbers should be fairly static (in fact, in recent past elections most post-debate bumps reverted back to the pre-debate mean, IIRC).

BTW, the Marquette poll with +9 is for RV, with LV it is +6. They also had a polls of Trump against Biden (LV) that was +6 end of March, so maybe they have a slight D lean?

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

So one of the BLM leaders called for destroying images of white Jesus.  As an atheist I've often laughed at white Jesus (dude was from Middle East!), perhaps I'm an asshole on that count, but this seems like a kind of pro Trump move / overreach.  Sounds like this tweet was a few days ago and no idea if anyone's followed through on this one yet.

As an aside, Shaun King is a piece of shit and a scammer.

[Fez]

New Ohio poll.

Considering the shift Ohio had in 2016, this seems to line up roughly with the national numbers we're getting now. This may even be a bit pessimistic.

I'm just glad we're finally starting to get more high quality state polling though.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Ormond said:

I just disagree with that. The official government definition is that natives of the Middle East and North Africa are "White", and most people of Arabic ancestry look generally Mediterranean, not very different from many Italians or Greeks, and almost all Americans would see them as "White". 

I'd just say it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Fragile Bird]

Not really US Politics, of course, but I would point out that there is a centuries old tradition in Europe of painting Mary as the Black Madonna, holding an equally black baby. I don't think that ever bothered anyone, because if God put his son in Palestine, that's what his son was going to look like. Phillipino friends told me they imagine Jesus as a Phillipino, because God made them in his image. 

As mentioned above, it's just the idea of Jesus being portrayed exclusively as white that becomes offensive. I discussed this topic a few years ago with friends and iirc, the white Jesus started taking over in the US about 150 years ago.

[DanteGabriel]

8 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Not really US Politics, of course, but I would point out that there is a centuries old tradition in Europe of painting Mary as the Black Madonna, holding an equally black baby. I don't think that ever bothered anyone, because if God put his son in Palestine, that's what his son was going to look like. Phillipino friends told me they imagine Jesus as a Phillipino, because God made them in his image.

This is kinda funny because when I went to Manila for my nephew's christening in 2011, the depictions of Jesus in the church were all blonde. I even took a picture and made reference to "Incongruously Caucusoid Jesus" in my Livejournal entry about it at the time.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Not really US Politics, of course, but I would point out that there is a centuries old tradition in Europe of painting Mary as the Black Madonna, holding an equally black baby. I don't think that ever bothered anyone, because if God put his son in Palestine, that's what his son was going to look like. Phillipino friends told me they imagine Jesus as a Phillipino, because God made them in his image. 

Now this begs a playful question among friends.

@DanteGabriel, I know you've kind of lost faith, at least somewhat, but is there a Filipino Jesus? 

Personally I want my Jesus to have darker skin, curly hair, an unkempt beard and just kind of have his sandals kicked up as he drinks some booze at a dive bar before he, or she, ventures out and does relatively okay things.

Quote

As mentioned above, it's just the idea of Jesus being portrayed exclusively as white that becomes offensive. I discussed this topic a few years ago with friends and iirc, the white Jesus started taking over in the US about 150 years ago.

As a white blue/green-eyed blondish Jew, I can tell you, I'm the oddity. I don't think Jesus looked like me at all.

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Now this begs a playful question among friends.

@DanteGabriel, I know you've kind of lost faith, at least somewhat, but is there a Filipino Jesus? 

Personally I want my Jesus to have darker skin, curly hair, an unkempt beard and just kind of have his sandals kicked up as he drinks some booze at a dive bar before he, or she, ventures out and does relatively okay things.

I'd say Jesus is whoever the audience needs him to be, and most white Americans just need Jesus to reassure them that they are good people without asking for anything too difficult.

[Maithanet]

42 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Jokes aside, I'd like to push back a bit here. I think most likely, across most scenarios, you're correct. But Trump is still a wild card. Watching the news and reading various coverage of recent polling.....holy shit this is bad. Things can change quickly, and I still believe there will be a rally to Trump late in the race, but if his numbers are really this bad, who is to say he wouldn't nuke people in his own party just because he's a spiteful asshole? 

I think Trump genuinely believes that he is popular and that he knows better than pollsters/strategists.  So he's going to be operating on the assumption that he will be president for the next five years.  He could fire a random shot at a Senator to keep him in line, but he's not going to completely burn bridges prior to the election because he knows that Paul Ryan was preferable to Nancy Pelosi, and he doesn't want to have to deal with Schumer as well.  

Now, if he loses the election?  Who the hell knows.  He could be whipping up an incompetent coup, he could be subbornly refusing to leave, or he could just be blaming everyone except himself.  At that point, he throws everybody under the bus, and I'm sure GOP senators will get their turn.  But by then his influence will already be waning, and GOP senators who have actual political futures will have bigger problems than Donny two scoops.  

[SkynJay]

45 minutes ago, Mexal said:

As an aside, Shaun King is a piece of shit and a scammer.

I was trying to write something about Shaun King but you said it better than I would have.

Is is despised by much of the BLM community, hijacks people's stories to make a splash for his voice to he heard, and is right there with Maher as people who seem designed to be dumb right wing boogeymen.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'd say Jesus is whoever the audience needs him to be, and most white Americans just need Jesus to reassure them that they are good people without asking for anything too difficult.

Well, logically speaking, shouldn't Jesus then be some combination of Michael Jordan, Ronald Rey-Gun and Margaret Thatcher? 

I apologize for dunking on your Filipino ass! 

God I can't believe the bird. FFS.

I've had to participate in Filipino ceremonies, which were lovely, not exactly sure what kind of dancing I was doing, but who cares? 

This is all clearly @Fez's fault. 

[Mexal]

6 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

I was trying to write something about Shaun King but you said it better than I would have.

Is is despised by much of the BLM community, hijacks people's stories to make a splash for his voice to he heard, and is right there with Maher as people who seem designed to be dumb right wing boogeymen.  

For anyone who cares, this is part of the reason I say this.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/shaun-king-keeps-raising-money-and-questions-about-where-it-goes-3

[A Horse Named Stranger]

34 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'd say Jesus is whoever the audience needs him to be, and most white Americans just need Jesus to reassure them that they are good people without asking for anything too difficult.

Ahum, going by that definition, does that mean Jesus is hiding underneath that orange make up. Good people on both sides.

And I thought Filipinos were so uberreligious.

Anyway, before I get sidetracked and mormont's mod hat goes off in flames.

23 minutes ago, SkynJay said:

I was trying to write something about Shaun King but you said it better than I would have.

For those outside the US, who the hell is Shaun King? I gather he is trying to make money out of BLM, but anything more on why I should know his name?

[Fez]

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is all clearly @Fez's fault. 

What am I getting pulled into now? 

Remember, I'm Jewish, nominally, and have zero opinions on Jesus.

[Jace, Extat]

 

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

 

Plus there are some great depictions of Jesus out there are Black or Native American and as a woman which I think are great. "Jesus of the People" by Janet McKenzie is one of the most well-known:

https://www.janetmckenzie.com/joppage1.html

The problem with "White Jesus" is when people get the idea that's the only way to depict Him. I think there should be depictions of Him of all races and ethnicities, and it should not just be limited to racial types who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

I'm just gonna dive in here. Not religious, well aware that the standard European depiction of the guy cannot be accurate. 

However, the above sentiment is just goddamn goofy to me. Here's the thing. Jesus Christ? Real guy. Existed. Records were made. He was probably not of the same physical description as the guy Hitler imagined himself being when he fucked Eva Braun, but he was from West Asia. We are pretty certain on that. So as a fan of history, I just gotta call this idea that "Jesus looks however you want her to look" fucking dumb. Because it's dumb and intentionally ignorant of the few facts we have.

I don't give a fuck what magic cloud you believe in or how you rationalize yourself into the center of the universe via tethering to a fantasy. But c'mon man! That was a real dude. We know things about this figure. If you're just gonna make up your own idol, keep going and make a new religion altogether. This Jesus Is A Woman business comes across as halfassed at best.

God is a woman I can handle. Cause bitches be cruel sometimes. And also because God never paid taxes to an empire.

[Ormond]

4 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

 

I'm just gonna dive in here. Not religious, well aware that the standard European depiction of the guy cannot be accurate. 

However, the above sentiment is just goddamn goofy to me. Here's the thing. Jesus Christ? Real guy. Existed. Records were made. He was probably not of the same physical description as the guy Hitler imagined himself being when he fucked Eva Braun, but he was from West Asia. We are pretty certain on that. So as a fan of history, I just gotta call this idea that "Jesus looks however you want her to look" fucking dumb. Because it's dumb and intentionally ignorant of the few facts we have.

I don't give a fuck what magic cloud you believe in or how you rationalize yourself into the center of the universe via tethering to a fantasy. But c'mon man! That was a real dude. We know things about this figure. If you're just gonna make up your own idol, keep going and make a new religion altogether. This Jesus Is A Woman business comes across as halfassed at best.

God is a woman I can handle. Cause bitches be cruel sometimes. And also because God never paid taxes to an empire.

Way past time to move this out of American politics, but if you want to start another thread, I'll respond.

[GrimTuesday]

Going back to the topic of Lindsey Graham and other Republicans breaking from Trump. I'm so sick of seeing people praising Republicans who show the slightest amount of backbone . It's like the bullshit with Jeff Flake, he would voice his disapproval of how Trump was so rude while voting for everything that was put in front of him. I just want yell at anyone who acts like the Lincoln Project are in any way our allies because their adds are a little sassy. These are the same people who laid the path for where we are today, Trump (or someone like Trump) was always the eventual outcome. 

People need to realize that the main issue that most non-Trump aligned Republicans have is on the basis of style, not substance. Trump is doing basically everything they have ever wanted to do, but have been held back by their need to appear reasonable. All Trump has done is taken the mask off, and that is what they don't like him, he has exposed them for who they really are.