Coldhands, Not human, Not Other, Not Alive

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

I apologize if this thread has been created before. But what is Coldhands and who?

 

We know from GRRM himself Coldhands is not Benjen stark. Is he a lost ranger? Or a wildling? Or the Night King?

 

We will most likely see Coldhands in Winds, I would imagine he will continue to help Bran. Wether hes helping him or making him think that he is. What is his role to play in this?

 

[TheLastWolf]

 

Hope this helps. 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

A little. Always nice to hear another opinion. I dont think Coldhands has anything to do with the 3 Eyed Crow.

I like the idea of him being the Nightking (if there ever was one)

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I apologize if this thread has been created before. But what is Coldhands and who?

 

We know from GRRM himself Coldhands is not Benjen stark. Is he a lost ranger? Or a wildling? Or the Night King?

 

We will most likely see Coldhands in Winds, I would imagine he will continue to help Bran. Wether hes helping him or making him think that he is. What is his role to play in this?

 

Until we figure out what/who/why Coldhands really is there will be discussion.  There are many common ideas as to Coldhands' identity and some make good sense while others do not.   I think it's safe to assume Coldhands is a former Nights Watchman.  I like to term it just like that because in the histories the brothers were known as Black Knights.  Just fits my head canon and makes sense given location location location.   Never thought Coldhands would reappear in the story but as you say, he could.  Perhaps Jojen is holding conversations with him at the mouth of the cave, perhaps not.   What strikes me most about Coldhands is Leaf's seeming disinterest in him.   I mean, if I ran into a dead guy helping the Last Greenseer Trainee to the promised land, I would be impressed or grateful or something.  I don't think the best I could summon is "they killed him long ago".  How lackluster.  It maybe telling that the COTF with Bloodraven at least, don't find this creature to be extraordinary and seem to understand his history, perhaps his purpose as well.  

How about you expand a little bit on that last line indicating that Coldhands has ulterior motives for aiding Bran?  That's an interesting line of query.  

[broken one]

Brother of the Night Watch (maybe Lord Commander's Bloodraven companion). Slain by the Others, I think he was reanimated by them too. Somehow "saved" by Children of the Forest or did not lose his will for another reason, he's not controlled by the Others' magic. Greenseer's special agent.

Not original but that's exactly how I see it.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Until we figure out what/who/why Coldhands really is there will be discussion.  There are many common ideas as to Coldhands' identity and some make good sense while others do not.   I think it's safe to assume Coldhands is a former Nights Watchman.  I like to term it just like that because in the histories the brothers were known as Black Knights.  Just fits my head canon and makes sense given location location location.   Never thought Coldhands would reappear in the story but as you say, he could.  Perhaps Jojen is holding conversations with him at the mouth of the cave, perhaps not.   What strikes me most about Coldhands is Leaf's seeming disinterest in him.   I mean, if I ran into a dead guy helping the Last Greenseer Trainee to the promised land, I would be impressed or grateful or something.  I don't think the best I could summon is "they killed him long ago".  How lackluster.  It maybe telling that the COTF with Bloodraven at least, don't find this creature to be extraordinary and seem to understand his history, perhaps his purpose as well.  

How about you expand a little bit on that last line indicating that Coldhands has ulterior motives for aiding Bran?  That's an interesting line of query.  

Here’s what I think Coldhands is:

He’s the Nightking (if the legend were ever true) Between GRRM confirming hes not Ben Stark (I know some people think hes Waymar Royce but just doesn’t seem likely..)

&

ADWD Bran 34:

Bran is currently in Bloodraven’s cave and is having a Weirwood vision in his sleep through Winterfell’s Heart tree he sees the following:


A) His young father praying with a bowed head "…let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them, and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive." This is bran watching Ned pray to the gods that Rob and Jon will grow up close and Cat will hopefully stop being a bitch ass wench. Jon is Neds but thats a different thread.

A girl and a younger boy play fighting with branches. Most likely Lyanna and Benjen playing as kids
C) A pregnant woman coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her. This is the most difficult to pinpoint. It could be the original Lord Starks wife and the tale of Bael the Bard coming to life. Or something else. Any idea? 
D) A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor. This is Rhonne Webber kissing Duncan the Tall
E) A pale, dark-eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows. This is Brandon Snow, half brother to king who knelt Torren Stark. Brandon was going to either kill Aegon the conqueror/or the dragons.
F) Other lords of Winterfell: tall, hard, stern men in fur and chain mail; A bearded man forcing a captive down on his knees, and a white-haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle. 

Lets focus on F)
1) This can either just be the First Men performing blood sacrifice to the old gods (they didn’t worship the old gods when they first came to Westeros they adopted the old gods from the Children of the Forest) Notice how the blood sacrifice is in front of a Weirwood…. The Weirwood is a death god. 
2) This can be the lords and elite of Winterfell executing a poacher a (still doing death worship regardless) or it can be something more. Can this be a execution of a Brandon Stark?!?!?!?! Some people think its Bran the Builder but I doubt its him. As he is so known I think if he was executed we would know. Why am I specifically asking if this is a execution of a Brandon Stark. Let’s read the text real quickly:

“And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as the life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.”

It says Brandon Stark could taste blood. Now is that our Brandon or the Brandon who just died? Or are they one of the same in some shape and form? I know this part has nothing to do with Coldhands but trust me this is how it all comes tied together. Old Nan firmly believes the Night King was a Brandon Stark and the Others feast on blood and remember the Night King was taken down by the other Lord Stark- his brother. So this could be Lord Stark executing his brother (only to become the Night King- the all white women is there too. In the legend he gives her his seed here we see it’s life’s blood- we need more evidence but I think it’s safe to say Martin hid the Coldhands story extremely well)

A few things to make note of, before we go any further, Chain Mail (many thought the first men didn’t have chain mail as they didn’t have steel or iron but they must have made it out of bronze), Bronze Sickle (this implies the timeframe this is happening most likely before the Andals as the they brought steel and iron with them, the first men used bronze. So this could be happening 6-8k years ago (Long Night anyone?) 

Now when Bran first meets Coldhands, Coldhands says to Bran when asked who he is, “Your monster, Brandon Stark." This line is so subtle but so important as it completely ties Coldhands to the Night King and Bran’s role in the wars to come.

What do we know about Coldhands? He's a black brother - the Night's King was Lord Commander. According to Leaf, he died "long ago" The Night's King died 6-8,000 years ago.The children’s sense of time is different then mans so when the children say long ago they don’t mean a year or 2 (when Benjen would have gone missing. They mean centuries even thousands of years. Coldhands is said to be wearing chain mail armor under his cloak. Now this is often used against Coldhands being the Night's King, the logic being chain mail only came when the Andals came. But as you can see, in Bran's last vision he sees "tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail." I take this to mean that chain mail (made of bronze) existed before the Andals. Or he could have looted it from someone he killed (doubt it). It makes sense that Coldhands keeps his face covered, given that he had his neck gruesomely cut by a sickle. 

The only “discrepancy” is the “giving the soul to an other”Again this is pure speculation but the blood sacrifice that happens is exactly that. 

But why is he helping Bran? That is a question I cant even begin. Perhaps he is stuck as a wight and will walk the realm forever till the Great War is done? Only George has the answer to those questions, but I think we got another piece of the puzzle.

Coldhands, The Night King.

 

[Jay21]

I dunno. I suspect that he was a member of the Night's Watch, I don't discount that he could have been the Night King at some point, the Last Hero, or one of Bloodraven's Dragon's Teeth (these theories are everywhere) - though I doubt he could be any younger than that. 

There's a lot of talk about Jon dying from the wounds he received at the end of Dance and then being resurrected and 'freed' from his NW vows as they end at his death.  Perhaps Coldhands will be the example to Jon who says 'my vows still bind me' despite my death.

LML has a series of essays "Sacred Order of the Green Zombies' or something like that which look at Cold Hands and lead to some rather bold theories.

 

[Finley McLeod]

@Jay21  The uniform point to him being once a member of the watch.  Which is why he continues to serve the watch even in death.  Manner of death is not important but why he still walks is.  The White Walkers must have given him back some kind of life expecting an obedient wight.  Instead, they brought back a warg whose mind was able to take refuge in another body.  And he will continue until the body of the host is dead.  

[Jay21]

30 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

@Jay21  The uniform point to him being once a member of the watch.  Which is why he continues to serve the watch even in death.  Manner of death is not important but why he still walks is.  The White Walkers must have given him back some kind of life expecting an obedient wight.  Instead, they brought back a warg whose mind was able to take refuge in another body.  And he will continue until the body of the host is dead.  

I agree to a point.  I'm not sure that it was the Others who 'wighted' him, but agree it is likely his ability to skin change which distinguishes him from their mindless versions. The main reason I have for doubting he was created by an Other is that said Other would have been on hand to dispose of him once the imperfect raising was detected.  ( I acknowledge that is assuming that the Other would be able to detect a messed up 'wighting')

[Loose Bolt]

There is a possibility that Barrow Kings had some powers connected to death and so their descendants might keep their own will if they are raised as a wight and I suspect that Coldhands is a one of them.

Also the fact that victorious Starks married daughter of last Barrow King could mean that Starks could have that potential immunity against losing their own will if they become wight.

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I like the idea of him being the Nightking (if there ever was one)

Why must the Night King help Bran? 

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

) A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor. This is Rhonne Webber kissing Duncan the Tall

Could be young Old Nan too

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Could be young Old Nan too

Old nan is Rhonne Webber. And to your question before. I have 0 idea.

Perhaps hes not helping Bran and hes’s using him. Only George has this answer

[broken one]

Rohanne Webber in Winterfell?

[Curled Finger]

We don't actually know much about all this ice resurrection or whatever the hell state of being Coldhands is.   Leaf says "they killed him long ago" so we can assume he was alive once.  OK, so was Beric.  So was Lady Stoneheart.  Is it the same sort of thing?   I doubt it.   We know the Others make these mindless sort of wights who seem capable of executing simple tasks, like Flowers being found and reanimating to kill Jeor Mormont.  OK, maybe not so mindless nor simple, but not particularly complicated either.   These fire wights for lack of a better term, do seem capable of independent thought, however limited.   Not hive minded.   Coldhands seems to have more cognizance than Flowers or Stoneheart, perhaps along the lines of Beric.  He communicates and plans and interacts with others as well as independently.  Coldhands does not appear to be hive minded nor particularly controlled.  He is self aware which indicates a certain amount of consciousness.   Coldhands, Brandon Stark's monster, seems to be something more than simply reanimated.  

I have read ideas wherein people believe he is Bloodraven's creature.   OK, great.   The end being in getting Bran to the cave, justifying all the means to do so.  This serves Bloodraven and the COTF, not the Others.  On some level this has to serve Bran as well, again, not the Others.  All this brings me back to Coldhands' own statement about himself, "I am your monster, Brandon Stark". 

Coldhands is aware that he is a monster in the service of Bran, not Bloodraven or R'hllor or The Others.  If Coldhands is an independent agent as his statement suggests, he is an entirely different entity than any other we have encountered.  Some have suggested he may be a Brandon Stark even.  Bran the Builder if I'm not mistaken.  I don't think he needs to be that significant to be part of the current story.   I think he needs to be aware of the waking of the Others and the dying of the greenseer and and COTF.   As a Black Night of the Wall he would be aware of the danger to the Nights Watch and all they were organized to do.  It's clear he understands Bran's importance in the current scheme of things.  

Though all we have is the legend of Night King, that legend describes a sinister dude bent on unholy sacrifice seemingly designed to weaken the Nights Watch and Wall.  Why would he want to aid a greenseer who presumably sits in place to fortify the power of the Wall?  His job was to bring it all down, not help it stay strong.  

This is a good subject for speculation.  I did not intend to discount anyone's ideas, just adding my voice to the choir.  

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Old nan is Rhonne Webber

Then who's the ghost of high heart if not rohanne Webber and if not COTF...but she's a dwarf for sure. 

Moreover old Nan being mother of Duncan the Tall's son who is Hodor's forebear is widely accepted. 

 

[szbszig]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

We don't actually know much about all this ice resurrection or whatever the hell state of being Coldhands is.   Leaf says "they killed him long ago" so we can assume he was alive once.  OK, so was Beric.  So was Lady Stoneheart.  Is it the same sort of thing?   I doubt it.   We know the Others make these mindless sort of wights who seem capable of executing simple tasks, like Flowers being found and reanimating to kill Jeor Mormont.  OK, maybe not so mindless nor simple, but not particularly complicated either.   These fire wights for lack of a better term, do seem capable of independent thought, however limited.   Not hive minded.   Coldhands seems to have more cognizance than Flowers or Stoneheart, perhaps along the lines of Beric.  He communicates and plans and interacts with others as well as independently.  Coldhands does not appear to be hive minded nor particularly controlled.  He is self aware which indicates a certain amount of consciousness.   Coldhands, Brandon Stark's monster, seems to be something more than simply reanimated.  

I have read ideas wherein people believe he is Bloodraven's creature.   OK, great.   The end being in getting Bran to the cave, justifying all the means to do so.  This serves Bloodraven and the COTF, not the Others.  On some level this has to serve Bran as well, again, not the Others.  All this brings me back to Coldhands' own statement about himself, "I am your monster, Brandon Stark". 

Coldhands is aware that he is a monster in the service of Bran, not Bloodraven or R'hllor or The Others.  If Coldhands is an independent agent as his statement suggests, he is an entirely different entity than any other we have encountered.  Some have suggested he may be a Brandon Stark even.  Bran the Builder if I'm not mistaken.  I don't think he needs to be that significant to be part of the current story.   I think he needs to be aware of the waking of the Others and the dying of the greenseer and and COTF.   As a Black Night of the Wall he would be aware of the danger to the Nights Watch and all they were organized to do.  It's clear he understands Bran's importance in the current scheme of things.  

Though all we have is the legend of Night King, that legend describes a sinister dude bent on unholy sacrifice seemingly designed to weaken the Nights Watch and Wall.  Why would he want to aid a greenseer who presumably sits in place to fortify the power of the Wall?  His job was to bring it all down, not help it stay strong.  

This is a good subject for speculation.  I did not intend to discount anyone's ideas, just adding my voice to the choir.  

My favourite theory about the creation of the Wall is that the Long Night ended with a peace treaty between mankind and the Others (and/or possibly the Children). This was something like Craster's pact. The Others (and/or the Children) helped building the Wall which is obviously magical in nature, and pulled back behind it. Meanwhile humans agreed to leave them be, AND provide them regular supplies and offerings through the many secret tunnels of the Wall, like the Black Gate. So while one of the original tasks of the Night's Watch was indeed to keep watch and defend humanity from another possible invasion from the north, they also kept close ties and traded with the Others. The first few Lord Commanders adhered to this pact, then the rulers of the North, the Starks rebelled against it, deposed the 13th Lord Commander, reorganised the Watch, and severed any tie with the Others. In this version, the so called Night's King, i.e. the 13th Lord Commander, is not a sinister person, but someone true to the pact and his original vows. Of course, the Starks later erased any non-convenient part of this story, and painted a much more gruesome picture of the Night's King, who according to them sacrificed his own kin to the Others for purely selfish reasons.

I never really considered the Night's King to be the man executed in Bran's last vision, or that he could be Coldhands, but one or two of these might actually fit into the theory above. For example, while he tried maintaining good relations with the Others in his life, it is natural that now he helps Bran and humanity at the dawn of another invasion.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Then who's the ghost of high heart if not rohanne Webber and if not COTF...but she's a dwarf for sure. 

Moreover old Nan being mother of Duncan the Tall's son who is Hodor's forebear is widely accepted. 

 

I think she is a COTF or a greenseer of some sort. We learn that some of them have red eyes (though it rare). We even get this from Thoros:

she has her own ways of knowing things, that one. The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.- Toros to Arya

Weirdwoods whispering sounds like something with the old gods and the COTF.

Old Nan is related to Dunk. Through his children via Rhonne. Rhonne 

[szbszig]

2 hours ago, szbszig said:

My favourite theory about the creation of the Wall is that the Long Night ended with a peace treaty between mankind and the Others (and/or possibly the Children). This was something like Craster's pact. The Others (and/or the Children) helped building the Wall which is obviously magical in nature, and pulled back behind it. Meanwhile humans agreed to leave them be, AND provide them regular supplies and offerings through the many secret tunnels of the Wall, like the Black Gate. So while one of the original tasks of the Night's Watch was indeed to keep watch and defend humanity from another possible invasion from the north, they also kept close ties and traded with the Others. The first few Lord Commanders adhered to this pact, then the rulers of the North, the Starks rebelled against it, deposed the 13th Lord Commander, reorganised the Watch, and severed any tie with the Others. In this version, the so called Night's King, i.e. the 13th Lord Commander, is not a sinister person, but someone true to the pact and his original vows. Of course, the Starks later erased any non-convenient part of this story, and painted a much more gruesome picture of the Night's King, who according to them sacrificed his own kin to the Others for purely selfish reasons.

I never really considered the Night's King to be the man executed in Bran's last vision, or that he could be Coldhands, but one or two of these might actually fit into the theory above. For example, while he tried maintaining good relations with the Others in his life, it is natural that now he helps Bran and humanity at the dawn of another invasion.

Also, the Horn of Winter fits perfectly into this theory. I think the Horn was crafted during the same magical ritual, which created the wall. Then the Horn was given to the Others as an assurance measure: if humans did not abide by the treaty, they would blow the Horn, and the Wall would come down.

According to the popular legend, Joramun, King-beyond-the-Wall aligned himself with Brandon the Breaker when they rised against the Night's King's rule. Even the Horn got its nickname form Joramun, as it is now called Joramun's Horn. I think Joramun stole the Horn from the Others and hid it well, thereby preventing the Others from using it against humanity and avenging the fall of their ally, the Night's King.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, szbszig said:

My favourite theory about the creation of the Wall is that the Long Night ended with a peace treaty between mankind and the Others (and/or possibly the Children). This was something like Craster's pact. The Others (and/or the Children) helped building the Wall which is obviously magical in nature, and pulled back behind it. Meanwhile humans agreed to leave them be, AND provide them regular supplies and offerings through the many secret tunnels of the Wall, like the Black Gate. So while one of the original tasks of the Night's Watch was indeed to keep watch and defend humanity from another possible invasion from the north, they also kept close ties and traded with the Others. The first few Lord Commanders adhered to this pact, then the rulers of the North, the Starks rebelled against it, deposed the 13th Lord Commander, reorganised the Watch, and severed any tie with the Others. In this version, the so called Night's King, i.e. the 13th Lord Commander, is not a sinister person, but someone true to the pact and his original vows. Of course, the Starks later erased any non-convenient part of this story, and painted a much more gruesome picture of the Night's King, who according to them sacrificed his own kin to the Others for purely selfish reasons.

I never really considered the Night's King to be the man executed in Bran's last vision, or that he could be Coldhands, but one or two of these might actually fit into the theory above. For example, while he tried maintaining good relations with the Others in his life, it is natural that now he helps Bran and humanity at the dawn of another invasion.

This puts me in a mind of examining Craster's motives which seems to call back to what we are told were Night King's.  Emphasis on wives and sacrifices and perversion of office.  Craster was an ugly sort of man, mean and focused.   Are these the same traits that the 13th LC possessed?  Coldhands doesn't in any way appear to be mean or intent on sacrificing or marrying Bran or his friends to any harm.  Coldhands lies about meat so that the kids can take some nourishment as they starved.  At face value Coldhands is honest and caring if not entirely forthcoming.  While he cannot draw breath he does seem to feel emotion and virtuous emotion at that.   He is attacked as completely as his living human charges as they approached the cave.  I am trying and not doing a great job at drawing a comparison between Coldhands and Craster, as our present day representative of a legend we can't even be sure actually existed.  I see no comparison here.   

It is entirely possible that I am wrong in drawing this comparison, but Craster is all I have to go on.