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The next Baratheon


TheLastWolf

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20 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They might start looking for another religion.

One thing you can say for Rh'llor - his followers are always warm. That could be a real draw during a Westerosi winter.

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Stormlanders aren't going to follow some unacknowledged illiterate bastard from KL. Same goes for all of Robert's other bastards - even Mya. Edric, by contrast, has noble blood on both sides, is educated, and is well liked by people in Storms End. So it's Eric or no one.

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10 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It depends on how people react to the time of hardships brought on by winter. Their faith in the seven will be shaken if their prayers are not answered and their bellies are empty.  They might start looking for another religion.

So far we've never seen the powers of the Seven unlike The old gods ( weirwood) and Rh'llor

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6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Stormlanders aren't going to follow some unacknowledged illiterate bastard from KL

As things stand in Westeros right now - sure. But who would even have a reason to legitimise any of Robert's bastards right now? Not Tommen/Cersei, that's obvious. Stannis - to marry Shireen off to either Gendry or Edric and secure his line that way? Maybe, but this scenario would be more likely if he'd had one of them at hand. Or if he at least had Mel to confirm for him one of them is alive and favored by Rh'llor before Stannis bites it at Winterfell. Aegon? That's just stupid politics - he'd sooner give Storm's End to some Stormlander lord to bring them around to his cause or to some other loyal supporter as a reward for service. 

But after everything shakes out with Others and the final war for the Iron Throne? I'm not sure in that Westeros being follower of Rh'llor or former illiterate smith apprientice would be such a deal breaker. Or that having noble linneage on both sides would be such a boon. If either Gendry or Edric (or for that matter Mya) ever get a lordship of any castle - Storm's end or not - it won't be primarily on the account of being fathered by Robert Baratheon, but on the basis of their own achievements. And here Gendry seems to be the best candidate, since out of all of king Robert's bastards he's in the best position to get swept up with the main plot and therefore do something worthy of winning him a lordship. 

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15 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It depends on how people react to the time of hardships brought on by winter. Their faith in the seven will be shaken if their prayers are not answered and their bellies are empty.  They might start looking for another religion.

Westeros has suffered hundreds of long and cruel winters, and its people has stuck to the Faith for several millennia. I don't see why this time it should be different, particularly in the Stormlands (being one of the Southernmost kingdoms).

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3 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

As things stand in Westeros right now - sure. But who would even have a reason to legitimise any of Robert's bastards right now? Not Tommen/Cersei, that's obvious. Stannis - to marry Shireen off to either Gendry or Edric and secure his line that way? Maybe, but this scenario would be more likely if he'd had one of them at hand. Or if he at least had Mel to confirm for him one of them is alive and favored by Rh'llor before Stannis bites it at Winterfell. Aegon? That's just stupid politics - he'd sooner give Storm's End to some Stormlander lord to bring them around to his cause or to some other loyal supporter as a reward for service. 

But after everything shakes out with Others and the final war for the Iron Throne? I'm not sure in that Westeros being follower of Rh'llor or former illiterate smith apprientice would be such a deal breaker. Or that having noble linneage on both sides would be such a boon. If either Gendry or Edric (or for that matter Mya) ever get a lordship of any castle - Storm's end or not - it won't be primarily on the account of being fathered by Robert Baratheon, but on the basis of their own achievements. And here Gendry seems to be the best candidate, since out of all of king Robert's bastards he's in the best position to get swept up with the main plot and therefore do something worthy of winning him a lordship. 

I'm sorry, but what is any of this based on? No one in the Stormlands knows Gendry and he knows shit about taking care of lands. What's going to change that the Storm Lords are going to want this guy in charge?

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On 6/24/2020 at 5:48 AM, Miss_Saffron said:

And this, actually, is the best argument, why there would be no new Baratheons after Stannis and Shireen meet their demise. When Orys became a lord, he didn't became Orys Targaryen - he became a lord in his own right not was legitimised under his father's name. Therefore, if either Gendry or Edric would ever become lords, I doubt they would do so under the name Baratheon, to se-establish the family line. 

 

But he wasnt replacing anyone or continuing a line, he was in fact starting his own, so it isnt comparable. 

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20 hours ago, Vaith said:

Mya has that sort of ambiguous status where she is publicly known about but not officially acknowledged. She'd probably be viewed as more official than Gendry being pulled out of nowhere, but thanks to her gender, I'd say it's unlikely unless Lys is torched.

Mya Stone is the acknowledged daughter of Robert Baratheon. That's why she is a Stone. Her mother wasn't a noblewoman, so she wouldn't be marked as a noble bastard if her father, Lord Robert, hadn't acknowledged her. She may not realize/been told herself who exactly her father is, but the world does now, or else she wouldn't be a Stone.

Mya is actually in a better position to technically end up a pretender to Storm's End at least. Edric is in exile, but if the Vale were to declare for Aegon and join him with a lot of forces, they could take Mya to court and she might be legitimized. Being in service to the high and mighty of the Vale - which is - puts her in a better position than a landless boy in exile.

Gendry has never been acknowledged, nobody is ever going to see him as Robert's son. Just because he looks like a Baratheon doesn't make him Robert's son in the eyes of the world.

Now, Edric's advantage is that he might be picked up by Daenerys on her way west. She is not going to persecute another exile who ran for his life, and he actually happens to be an innocent cousin of hers. So she might bring him back to Westeros and restore him to Storm's End - also because he might come in handy as a pretender against whoever person Aegon installs as the new Lord of Storm's End. Whoever that is, chances are it won't be a Baratheon descendant.

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On 6/24/2020 at 2:58 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Even if Stannis survives winter and defeats the Boltons and Freys in the North, I have a hunch that he is going to meet his red god before he can seat his puckered arse on the Iron throne. (There are already so many new claimants...one with dragons itself... and lets admit, no one wants him and his obnoxious wife ruling the Seven Kingdoms.)

Say he dies, who will become the next Lord Baratheon? If he dies no one would call his daughter heir to the throne as he was supposed to be Azor Azhai reborn, and how could he die then? We know that Dawn is the true Lightbringer (and old/new Ice,  according to which theory you believe) so he is not Azor Azhai either. If his cause is doomed after his death, who would be his heir? I also have a (another hunch) premonition that Val's prediction about Princess Shireen's Greyscale is true.So who will be the next Baratheon after bearded Selyse and Shireen reach their beloved Rh'llor? Never Axell Florent , whatever may happen. And I won't bring Mya stone into this as she'd never leave the Vale.

Would it be Edric storm or Gendry? Though Edric has been trained in arms, courtesies, faith and history by septons, knights and maesters, that does not make one fit to rule.Joffrey and Tommen were brought up the same, were they fit? Edric is too vain about his father. And he may not live long in the Stepstones anyway, with Salladhor Saan returned to piracy, he may sell Edric to Stannis's enemies without hesitation.

Gendry has lived among the people and knows their hardships and he's a great fighter by the way.Whatever required to be Highborn can easily be learnt, but not what's learnt by living with commonfolk like fAegon. Plus Gendry was knighted by Beric Dondarrion who remained loyal to  the father of both the bastards who I'm writing about to the bitter end and beyond (this fits him better than Mace Tyrell) ...just that one is highborn and the other is not.If Gendry is legitimized and becomes Lord, then I bet he will marry Arya if, no, when she returns.

P.S. Some of you may be against a bastard becoming Lord, but the first Baratheon, Orys himself was the Conquerer's baseborn half brother. 

 

 

Dawn Isn't lightbringer and Gendry will sit at Storm's end. it is known 

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1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm sorry, but what is any of this based on? No one in the Stormlands knows Gendry and he knows shit about taking care of lands. What's going to change that the Storm Lords are going to want this guy in charge?

A little bit aggressive here, don't you think?

I've said that I don't think Gendry is actually equipped to rule - not that it's necessarily a 100% deal breaker. Not every lord is good at being a lord. And to get knighted (and then marry into a castle, like Bronn) you don't have to pass any governship test. You just need to impress the king or somebody close enough to him to put you forward for knighthood and arrange a match for you. 

And maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I don't see Baratheon blood as a viable option for Gendry to get any sort of title. I don't even think he'll be aware he's Robert's bastard by the end of the books. Which means that no, I don't see him in position of leadership in the Stormlands. I see how mentioning Storm's End could confuse that point, but I've explicitly stated that I don't believe that Gendry will be legitimised as a Baratheon to re-establish the line. And especially not in current circumstances. Here, see:

5 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:
12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Stormlanders aren't going to follow some unacknowledged illiterate bastard from KL

As things stand in Westeros right now - sure.

But I highly doubt that by the end of the ASOIAF much of the status quo would be preserved. There would be far fewer Storm Lords left after Aegon and Others will be done with them. Because - unlike in the abomination - the war with Others in the books will have much more impact on all 7K. It will be a sort of cataclism and I believe neither Stormlands nor Dorne will be far enough south to escape that entirely. 

On that subject:

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Westeros has suffered hundreds of long and cruel winters, and its people has stuck to the Faith for several millennia. I don't see why this time it should be different, particularly in the Stormlands (being one of the Southernmost kingdoms).

They didn't suffer a winter with wights and Others waging war against the living. I don't think Others will reach Stormlands, but a lot of people from the Stormlands will fight in the final battle with them. The priests of Rh'llor will be there too and they will burn the wights in the name of their god. That sort of thing has a tendency to shake one's religious beliefs. I'm not saying people of 7K will convert en masse, but some of them will certainly grew more open to the idea that this fire god takes better care of his worshippers than the Seven. 

TL;DR - no, Gendry won't ever be next Baratheon ruling over Stormlands. If he ever gets a lordship and a castle, it would be something very minor, not giving him any sort of leadership position over other lords. He would have to earn it by some sort of impressive deed (and I'm not sure he will ever do that sort of thing), not based on his unacknowledged and unknown parentage. 

And this winter would be far worse than any since Faith took roots in 7K.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

But he wasnt replacing anyone or continuing a line, he was in fact starting his own, so it isnt comparable. 

What I meant was that the very origin of the House Baratheon makes precedence for bastards being 'uplifted' into the status of a lord not by being legitimised into existing house, but by starting their own line. I just feel like if any of the Baratheon bastards would ever get a noble title going the way of Orys and creating a new House would be more meaningful thematically than just resurrecting the old line. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mya is actually in a better position to technically end up a pretender to Storm's End at least. Edric is in exile, but if the Vale were to declare for Aegon and join him with a lot of forces, they could take Mya to court and she might be legitimized. Being in service to the high and mighty of the Vale - which is - puts her in a better position than a landless boy in exile

True. But Mya is known in the Vale not in Stormlands. The local lords might not be entirely pleased with her choice. They could be more open to her if she was wed to some Stormland lord, but then wouldn't Aegon want to marry her to somebody loyal to him and not the Stormlands to keep the lords there in line? 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, Edric's advantage is that he might be picked up by Daenerys on her way west. She is not going to persecute another exile who ran for his life, and he actually happens to be an innocent cousin of hers. So she might bring him back to Westeros and restore him to Storm's End - also because he might come in handy as a pretender against whoever person Aegon installs as the new Lord of Storm's End. Whoever that is, chances are it won't be a Baratheon descendant.

That actually seems like the most logical option, except Dany has no reason to love any of Usurper's offspring - innocent exiles or not. Edric might be her distant cousin but he is son of the man that rebelled against her father, slew her brother, made her an exile and send assassins after her. Putting all that aside for a tactical advantage is asking a lot of her. And I can as easily see her being magnanimous here as showing her mercy by advising him to never step a foot on any lands she rules instead of killing him outright. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 11:07 PM, zandru said:

Renly tore the kingdom in half by refusing to yield to his brother's better claim; good thing he died early. Admittedly, he had good fashion sense, but that was probably due to his being an Abomination.

Really dude? What century are we in where this kind of homophobic comment is acceptable?

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mya Stone is the acknowledged daughter of Robert Baratheon. That's why she is a Stone. Her mother wasn't a noblewoman, so she wouldn't be marked as a noble bastard if her father, Lord Robert, hadn't acknowledged her. She may not realize/been told herself who exactly her father is, but the world does now, or else she wouldn't be a Stone.

Mya is actually in a better position to technically end up a pretender to Storm's End at least. Edric is in exile, but if the Vale were to declare for Aegon and join him with a lot of forces, they could take Mya to court and she might be legitimized. Being in service to the high and mighty of the Vale - which is - puts her in a better position than a landless boy in exile.

Gendry has never been acknowledged, nobody is ever going to see him as Robert's son. Just because he looks like a Baratheon doesn't make him Robert's son in the eyes of the world.

Now, Edric's advantage is that he might be picked up by Daenerys on her way west. She is not going to persecute another exile who ran for his life, and he actually happens to be an innocent cousin of hers. So she might bring him back to Westeros and restore him to Storm's End - also because he might come in handy as a pretender against whoever person Aegon installs as the new Lord of Storm's End. Whoever that is, chances are it won't be a Baratheon descendant.

Lord Varys, as always, you are here making the points I was going to say. Was excited no on had mentioned Mya was a Stone (and so therefore acknowledged), but there you were on page 2 :P . I agree with all of your points, and I agree that Aegon could put someone who will be even less acceptable than Robert's bastard daughter/son in place as Lord of Storm's End. 

My personal guess is either A. Daenerys awards some follower or someone who comes to her side early (some random Lord who abandons Aegon for her) could become the new line (and could marry Mya after she is legitimized to kind of mimic how Orys actually carried on the Durrandon line), B. Lordy Varys's suggestion above about Mya working well in the Aegon scenario, and C. I personally think the most likely is Edric. Not only because he could be used to replace some unsuitable Aegon has placed there, but also because I do think he is the most likely to be accepted by the Stormlords. He grew up there, he is Robert's son, and he has a noble mother as well. On a personal note, being that I just like Mya based on our limited interaction with her, would be nice if she got it. 

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1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Really dude? What century are we in where this kind of homophobic comment is acceptable?

I  thought we were discussing the feudal world of Westeros? Not modern day US. I was trying to make an in-book observation, not current political commentary. What do you think your Westerosi Smallfolk on the Street would think about Renly's sexual preferences? Howza bout the Sept? That was my point.

As to Mya Stone becoming the Lord of Storm's End, I don't think so. She's unknown outside the Vale, and there she's known as the Mule Girl. (Yeah, Mya is actually a WOMAN, but the term "Girl" would reflect her low status.) Mya's a good, reliable servant. Down in the Stormlands, Mya would just be one of a thousand of Robert's by-blows, with no actual legal standing. And she's a woman. Westerosi have a prejudice about this (MISOGYNY!), and the Vale, having suffered under Crazy Lady Lysa Arryn, might be less likely to push another woman as "Lord."

Also, when Mya marries, she'll take the man's name. No more Baratheons.

I still prefer the outcome of the end of House Baratheon. Maybe the current castellan's family could be elevated to great lordship, maybe some useful highborn person rewarded with Storm's End. But I continue to believe that the Baratheon name will end up "extinct."

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5 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

True. But Mya is known in the Vale not in Stormlands. The local lords might not be entirely pleased with her choice. They could be more open to her if she was wed to some Stormland lord, but then wouldn't Aegon want to marry her to somebody loyal to him and not the Stormlands to keep the lords there in line? 

The Stormlords are already joining Aegon, and we might see more/all of them doing that once he has taken Storm's End. If Aegon were to legitimize a Baratheon bastard and make her the new Lady of Storm's End they should be pleased with that, one assumes.

The idea of Aegon marrying a legitimized Mya Baratheon to one of his loyal men - Harry Strickland, say, or another important leader in the Golden Company, to sweeten the fact that he is making Strickland the new Lord of Storm's End could also work.

That would mean he has to wait to make such arrangements until he has the Iron Throne, though - which is likely since Storm's End will remain his seat until he secured King's Landing. If the Vale is going to join him, they could be there with Mya for the coronation.

5 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

That actually seems like the most logical option, except Dany has no reason to love any of Usurper's offspring - innocent exiles or not. Edric might be her distant cousin but he is son of the man that rebelled against her father, slew her brother, made her an exile and send assassins after her. Putting all that aside for a tactical advantage is asking a lot of her. And I can as easily see her being magnanimous here as showing her mercy by advising him to never step a foot on any lands she rules instead of killing him outright. 

Oh, but Edric Storm is just a bastard. He is completely irrelevant as a political player/pawn unless a monarch actually legitimizes him. Dany might do that to have her own Baratheon Lord of Storm's End to challenge whoever Aegon or Euron or whoever is going to install there in the future. Nobody else is likely to do that.

Dany might not be able to afford to be all that kind to the (allegedly) trueborn Baratheons who sat the Iron Throne or who crowned themselves kings and queens, but an innocent exile who is basically just a bastard isn't really a threat. I mean, you have to keep in mind that while pretty much every Baratheon wanted the crown after Robert's death, nobody even considered crowning Edric Storm.

Not to mention that his family - Stannis - considered sacrificing him, meaning he and his protectors would likely find it good to have support and an opportunity to return home. That wouldn't fly under Tommen/Myrcella or Stannis/Shireen, nor under Aegon if he wanted Storm's End for some other guy.

The idea that Daenerys has any desire to harm or persecute the children of the men who deposed and murdered her family are, so far, completely without basis. And there isn't any reason why she should be doing that. If, say, Tommen were still in charge and would actually abdicate offering her the throne she would likely accept that without insisting that she wants both the throne and his head.

There is also the fact that Edric is currently at Lys, and Lys is very likely going to be a stop of Dany's for the part of her armada that moves west by along the southern coast of Essos. Even if they were not taking the city to free the slaves there - which is actually pretty likely - they would have to land there to take on provisions and stuff. They will be able to make contact, and subsequently Dany will bring her own Baratheon with her when she lands in Westeros.

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8 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

A little bit aggressive here, don't you think?

Not at all. I'm just scrutinizing your theory.

8 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I've said that I don't think Gendry is actually equipped to rule - not that it's necessarily a 100% deal breaker. Not every lord is good at being a lord. And to get knighted (and then marry into a castle, like Bronn) you don't have to pass any governship test. You just need to impress the king or somebody close enough to him to put you forward for knighthood and arrange a match for you. 

And maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I don't see Baratheon blood as a viable option for Gendry to get any sort of title. I don't even think he'll be aware he's Robert's bastard by the end of the books. Which means that no, I don't see him in position of leadership in the Stormlands. I see how mentioning Storm's End could confuse that point, but I've explicitly stated that I don't believe that Gendry will be legitimised as a Baratheon to re-establish the line. And especially not in current circumstances. Here, see:

So what is he going to impress a king with - looking like a knock-off Renly? Unlike Edric, he's not particularly charismatic. His only skill is at an anvil. You seem to be hinting at his moral fibre but that can be found in hundreds of other people.

8 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

But I highly doubt that by the end of the ASOIAF much of the status quo would be preserved. There would be far fewer Storm Lords left after Aegon and Others will be done with them. Because - unlike in the abomination - the war with Others in the books will have much more impact on all 7K. It will be a sort of cataclism and I believe neither Stormlands nor Dorne will be far enough south to escape that entirely. 

But why would they get bastards from KL to fill those seats? Many of Storm Lords probably have bastards of their own. They'd be able to go back in their family tree to track down noble cousins. And whoever is king in the end will have plenty of men wanting lands to  reward their service.

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15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Westeros has suffered hundreds of long and cruel winters, and its people has stuck to the Faith for several millennia. I don't see why this time it should be different, particularly in the Stormlands (being one of the Southernmost kingdoms).

This long night is not the long winters that follow long summers. This coming one is the Long Night and it will last a generation.  

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17 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

unlike in the abomination

Wow....you must really hate the TV series more than me....as all the real asoiaf fans should.

Quote

The idea of Aegon marrying a legitimized Mya Baratheon to one of his loyal men - Harry Strickland, say, or another important leader in the Golden Company, to sweeten the fact that he is making Strickland the new Lord of Storm's End could also work.

But JonCon would never agree to giving such a powerfull and great seat to that weakling harry as long as he's alive...which wont be long I think, with the greyscale and all.

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So what is he going to impress a king with - looking like a knock-off Renly? Unlike Edric, he's not particularly charismatic. His only skill is at an anvil. You seem to be hinting at his moral fibre but that can be found in hundreds of other people.

Looks don't matter in the game of thrones,nor does charisma(not much at least)...and Gendry is not only skilled at the anvil. He's a good fighter (or he would not have been knighted by Beric and could not have survived as an outlaw for so long)  and held his own in the fight at Crossroads Inn... and how many moral men and women do you find in the 7K?no chance of 100s.

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18 hours ago, zandru said:

I  thought we were discussing the feudal world of Westeros? Not modern day US. I was trying to make an in-book observation, not current political commentary. What do you think your Westerosi Smallfolk on the Street would think about Renly's sexual preferences? Howza bout the Sept? That was my point.

They actually don't care very much. Laenor was almost openly gay, and no one referred to him as an abomination. The worst slander he ever got was a comment from Criston Cole saying he would have filled the Red Keep with boys. Note this was preceded by people saying Daemon and Rhaenyra would turn it into a brothel, so it speaks more of dislike against the Blacks than anything. Jeremy Norridge, Daeron Targaryen, Rhaena Targaryen, Jeyne Arryn, etc - who are all suspected of having homosexual inclinations, are also never referred to as abominations.

The ones who knew of Renly and Loras' homosexuality - Stannis, Jaime, Tyrion, Garlan, also seemed to have no strong feelings about it, they regard it as something akin to whoring around. It's not seen as desirable, but there's no fanatical hatred like the show, its mostly just a source of gossip and side-eyeing. Now Cersei is really homophobic, but that seems to be mostly her personality, she hates everyone.

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On 6/24/2020 at 9:21 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Stormlanders aren't going to follow some unacknowledged illiterate bastard from KL. Same goes for all of Robert's other bastards - even Mya. Edric, by contrast, has noble blood on both sides, is educated, and is well liked by people in Storms End. So it's Eric or no one.

100% agree but that assumes Edric survives. Just to touch off what you said he was raised in Storm's End "by" Renly and his household. He's an acknowledged noble bastard from a king and a (formerly) respectable house in the Reach. He's both known to SL and a suitable candidate for lordship by lineage, education, and proximity.

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3 hours ago, Peach King said:

They actually don't care very much. Laenor ...

You make some good observations, but Targaryens were always different. They even got the Sept to shut up, and they dismantled its militant wing.

Admittedly, there have been few major complaints from some of the series' lords. But one, Renly is currently dead, so what would be the point? and more importantly, two: the Faith of the Seven is now (in story) being run by extreme conservatives with a strong public following. So, had Renly still been around as a political problem, I suspect that opposing lords and self-proclaimed kings would use that as a wedge issue against him. Look at what's happening to Cersei, and all she did was sleep around with people of the opposite gender/sex! Also her womb-mate. Today, those would be big nothing-burgers.

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