What do you expect Renly would have done with Stannis?

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Plus people speak as though he was going to be a great king. Was he? Eddard and Catelyn talk about how much he resembles Robert (Which I don’t consider a compliment except in terms of looks), but they say nothing of whether he’s a worthy successor. 

He established a strong political alliance, he was beloved by the commons and a lot of nobility, and was smart enough to realize Cersei / the Lannisters wanted him dead.

On top of that, Catelyn compares him to Robert looks wise but then notes he's basically nothing like Robert in the negative ways:

“The king enjoyed his food and drink, that was plain to see, yet he seemed neither glutton nor drunkard. He laughed often, and well, and spoke amiably to highborn lords and lowly serving wenches alike.”

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

 There’s only three people who speak highly of Renly‘s capabilities and character, far as I can remember, and one of them is Renly himself. The other two are in love with him, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt. Cressen, Donal Noye, Olenna, they all dismiss him when they have no stake in opposing him. Cressen is a maester, Olenna’s house supported him in the war, and Donal is at the wall, what do any of them have to gain from badmouthing him out of hand? And don’t tell me that Olenna was trying to avoid Tywin’s wroth, she wasn’t scared of him, she knew that he needed her house more than she needed him.

Cressen and Donal Noye knew Renly as a child. Most people don't turn out to be like the 8 year old we were. Frankly no one cared what Olenna though, or at least the guy who mattered. He married his daughter to Renly and then to Joffrey and then to Tommen. 

She we have some examples of him being a dick -- telling Loras Brienne was grotesque* and mocking Shireen's appearance -- but most people either don't know or don't care about it. 

As to who would be the best king, Robert is a known property. Stannis is actively disliked by most people, is very bitter, left Robert in mortal danger and said nothing, and was too rigid in his approach to life (this changes drastically later). Renly seems to be a better version of Robert and I think he would be a better king than Robert or Stannis. He set Ned up for before he crowned himself.  I'd rather take the reluctant King than the one who demands everyone swear fealty without earning it.

* There's also an argument for grotesque meaning her emulating a male and not her appearance but I won't die on that hill

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

He would always be a threat since he is older brother and trueborn Baratheon. Even if he would bend the knee and renounce his claim , something he shouldn't and would never do - his line would always have great claim for any house to join or to support potentially.

That is not what Renly indicates in their talk - nor does he seem to consider a meaningful threat to his kingship prior to Stannis' attack on Storm's End. It is not impossible that he would have decided to put down Stannis if he was starting to make problems - but unlike with Stannis, killing his brother wasn't a high priority for Renly.

Stannis is singularly unpopular and singularly unsuited to be a king. He has a strong claim, but only people who have no other choice but to support him do so. Not even his own in-laws stand with him originally - and would have never joined him if Renly hadn't been killed.

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Bastardy of Cersei's children is obvious to everyone when confronted with it ( Tyrion, Kevan). Even Eddard Stark figured it out eventually.

This is hardly obvious to everyone - people only start to believe this story after they have read Stannis' letters, but nobody decided to abandon Joffrey or Tommen and join with 'King Stannis' because of that. Not a single man in Westeros was influenced by that story as far as we know.

Ned would have never 'figured it out' if he hadn't believed the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn and tried to kill his son and thus needed a motive for both those crimes.

Nobody but, perhaps, Varys, *knows* this thing (and he only because he may have overheard talks between Jaime and Cersei where they reveal the truth), the others just suspect or assume that this may be the case. Stannis has no proof for his calumnies.

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

If Renly is rebelling against to his knowledge  "lawful children" of his brother  that doesn't make him right at all, just makes him plainly much more ruthless opportunist. If he planned for removing trueborn children of his brother and replacing scheming Lannisters for Tyrells he is showing his true face and just people like  Stannis or Eddard wouldn't be safe in that regime either.

Renly is pushing one guy more, Stannis, aside in his quest for the throne, but Stannis himself is much worse. He has no proof for the twincest nor the parentage of Cersei's children, he abandoned Robert to Cersei's murder believing he was in mortal danger, and he planned to murder his own brother to take over his army.

And unlike with Renly, we can be pretty sure that Stannis would kill Cersei's abominations - and she and Jaime, too - should he ever lay hands on them, children who grew up seeing his as their uncle. With Renly this is less certain.

Stannis even fantasized about murdering Robb when talking with Catelyn. The guy is hopeless.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Plus people speak as though he was going to be a great king. Was he? Eddard and Catelyn talk about how much he resembles Robert (Which I don’t consider a compliment except in terms of looks), but they say nothing of whether he’s a worthy successor.  There’s only three people who speak highly of Renly‘s capabilities and character, far as I can remember, and one of them is Renly himself. The other two are in love with him, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt. Cressen, Donal Noye, Olenna, they all dismiss him when they have no stake in opposing him. Cressen is a maester, Olenna’s house supported him in the war, and Donal is at the wall, what do any of them have to gain from badmouthing him out of hand? And don’t tell me that Olenna was trying to avoid Tywin’s wroth, she wasn’t scared of him, she knew that he needed her house more than she needed him.

Renly would have been a better king than Robert and Stannis both. Robert ranks amongst the worst Kings on the Iron Throne, whereas Stannis is completely hopeless. Literally nobody wants him as king, meaning this guy would be the first king faced with serious rebellions and uprisings throughout his reign even if he had won the succession war - because people would simply continue to reject him even if he was the only possible pretender, just as Stannis would make himself enemies left and right by 'making new lords' as he ominously promises Davos. The entire noble class would have been afraid of the reign of that guy.

Renly also has flaws, but he is charismatic, amiable, popular, and a people person. He even seems to be pretty smart.

Renly is a man who may have had a chance to smile and laugh away another Sack of King's Landing and another butchery of the royal family - whereas Stannis would have never been able to make himself look good when executing/murdering people, nor would he have understood or agreed to try as soon as he had the power to do what he wanted.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly would have been a better king than Robert and Stannis both. Robert ranks amongst the worst Kings on the Iron Throne, whereas Stannis is completely hopeless. Literally nobody wants him as king, meaning this guy would be the first king faced with serious rebellions and uprisings throughout his reign even if he had won the succession war - because people would simply continue to reject him even if he was the only possible pretender, just as Stannis would make himself enemies left and right by 'making new lords' as he ominously promises Davos. The entire noble class would have been afraid of the reign of that guy.

 

The nobles SHOULD be afraid of Stannis. A lot of them deserved to be replaced by new lords. Stannis didn’t play the game, the same bloody game which is killing thousands of people throughout the show. Stannis saw right through the BS and he wasn’t interested in playing along if he could avoid it.

And while he certainly starts his journey at a very bitter and entitled place, his evolution across the series is a positive one. He embraces the good advice of lowborn men like Davos and bastards like Jon Snow. He listens and changes his methods, winning over the people by defending the realm and recognizing the true threat rather than a toxic and dangerous game that the southern lords kept playing with each other. The same game Renly was always busy playing.
 

I’m not going to say Renly was a monster, mind you, and I won’t say that Stannis was a charismatic man or that he didn’t make some really messed up choices, but Renly falls by the wayside for me while Stannis is one of the most fascinating characters of the entire series. His transition from someone who demands the dutiful allegiance of people into someone who earns loyalty and leads by example against the wildlings, Boltons, and presumably the Others, that’s the mark of a man who is changing his ways and listening to the right people to be the ruler that Westeros needs, instead of Joffrey or Renly or Tommen or Robert.
 

How many other characters in Westeros’ noble class would ever even consider Davos for an advisor, let alone reward him with a knighthood and land? 

Say what you will about Stannis and his many questionable traits or actions, but i admire his ability to look past rank and recognize real character in a person, whether they’re a smuggler or the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. And for all people talk about Stannis being loathed, he did inspire fierce loyalty in his followers. Clayton Suggs, an otherwise loathsome little creature with a desire to torture, was prepared to die bravely in defence of Stannis. Davos, one of the most moral characters in the story, is completely devoted to Stannis because he recognizes the good in him and his potential to be a good ruler. And by that logic, he wouldn’t have been afraid to punish nobles who abused their power. Varys talked about how terrifying a truly just man is. That just man is Stannis, and in this story’s universe, where corruption rules and intoxicates, a just ruler is necessary to break through the classist system and implement justice, just like Aegon III and Aegon V wanted to do.
 

Maybe Stannis wasn’t ready for the throne in the second book, to be honest. I can admit to that. But by the end of the fifth book, he’s evolved and has shown a worthiness to be king, more so than I ever saw in Renly. 

[Eltharion21]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not what Renly indicates in their talk - nor does he seem to consider a meaningful threat to his kingship prior to Stannis' attack on Storm's End. It is not impossible that he would have decided to put down Stannis if he was starting to make problems - but unlike with Stannis, killing his brother wasn't a high priority for Renly.

Stannis is singularly unpopular and singularly unsuited to be a king. He has a strong claim, but only people who have no other choice but to support him do so. Not even his own in-laws stand with him originally - and would have never joined him if Renly hadn't been killed.

Renly has more support initally, but Stannis challenges him by besieging Storm's End something that is major threat not because he could ever take it with that meager force , but it puts doubt on his claim to all lords of the realm.

Quote

Renly looked to the others. "What say you all?"

"I say that Stannis is a danger to you," Lord Randyll Tarly declared. "Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished by battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you . . . or stronger."

Others chorused their agreement. The king looked pleased. "We shall fight, then."

Tarly and others in his council agree he is major threat if left unchecked.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is hardly obvious to everyone - people only start to believe this story after they have read Stannis' letters, but nobody decided to abandon Joffrey or Tommen and join with 'King Stannis' because of that. Not a single man in Westeros was influenced by that story as far as we know.

Ned would have never 'figured it out' if he hadn't believed the Lannisters had murdered Jon Arryn and tried to kill his son and thus needed a motive for both those crimes.

Nobody but, perhaps, Varys, *knows* this thing (and he only because he may have overheard talks between Jaime and Cersei where they reveal the truth), the others just suspect or assume that this may be the case. Stannis has no proof for his calumnies.

It is obvious to anyone when confronted with accusation and looking at all of Cersei's children and comparing them to Baratheons or Robert's bastards, most of their lickspitles in King's Landing  ignore it hoping to gain advantage by supporting them.

If that isn't issue , why did Cersei order all of them be killed.  

Renly certainly chooses to ignore something very obvious because he doesn't want to renounce his claim. "Look at me I'm a king".

Even Kevan who hadn't spent so much time with Cersei or her children, doesn't take long to figure it out either.

Quote

“You would abandon your king when he needs you most,” she told him. “You would abandon Tommen.”

“Tommen has his mother.” Ser Kevan’s green eyes met her own, unblinking. A last drop of wine trembled wet and red beneath his chin, and finally fell. “Aye,” he added softly, after a pause, “and his father too, I think.”

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is pushing one guy more, Stannis, aside in his quest for the throne, but Stannis himself is much worse. He has no proof for the twincest nor the parentage of Cersei's children, he abandoned Robert to Cersei's murder believing he was in mortal danger, and he planned to murder his own brother to take over his army.

And unlike with Renly, we can be pretty sure that Stannis would kill Cersei's abominations - and she and Jaime, too - should he ever lay hands on them, children who grew up seeing his as their uncle. With Renly this is less certain.

Stannis even fantasized about murdering Robb when talking with Catelyn. The guy is hopeless.

Whatever proof he has, he needs to win by military force since most of powerful are corrupt and  respond with slander, treason and tearing the laws.  Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen very appearance is proof enough for some especially when compared with Robert's acknowledged bastards.

Stannis was mortally endangered in King's Landing, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark even Robert's death prove it. Without support of King deeply steeped corruption and influence of mostly Lannisters but also other players couldn't be removed. He made enemies of Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys and Tyrells ( by marrying Florent). 

Stannis is rightful heir of Baratheon bloodline and King of Westeros, all of lords allegiance belongs to the true king not pretenders like Renly.

Robb proclaimed himself a king of North but also had taken over Riverlands - clear act of treason.  

He had chance  to join Stannis through offered pardon but he offered deal to Renly via Catelyn. He was a promising boy, great commander, yet a traitor to the realm.

[Peach King]

Stannis owes like 90% of the loyalty of his followers to the cult around the Lord of Light. If you have a sorceress who actually displays true magic powers, and she tells everyone that you're a reborn legendary hero, that makes it easy for people to fall into a religious fervor and wholeheartedly believe in you as a saviour. What miracles does the Faith of the Seven ever perform? What about the Old Gods? 

I bet if Melisandre chose to believe in someone else as Azor Ahai reborn, half of Stannis' power base would desert him.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Renly has more support initally, but Stannis challenges him by besieging Storm's End something that is major threat not because he could ever take it with that meager force , but it puts doubt on his claim to all lords of the realm.

That someone opposes him yes, but Tywin and Tyrion thought it would take forever to force SE to fall in a siege. It doesn't make it a smart move unless you have someone who can someone a shadow baby.

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Tarly and others in his council agree he is major threat if left unchecked.

And that recommendation is both probably wrong (all but one of the powerful Stormlords is with him and nearly all of the reach all while dismissing Stannis) and got him killed (though no one is going to have predicted a shadow baby).

Mathis Rowan had the right of it:

“Your Grace, I see no need for battle here,” Lord Mathis Rowan put in. “The castle is strongly garrisoned and well provisioned, Ser Cortnay Penrose is a seasoned commander, and the trebuchet has not been built that could breach the walls of Storm’s End. Let Lord Stannis have his siege. He will find no joy in it, and whilst he sits cold and hungry and profitless, we will take King’s Landing.”

That he denotes all the other nobles as fools in the next response isn't lost on me either. Who flocks to Stannis' banner while he's besieging an impregnable fortress surrounded by lands of people who already foreswore him and can harass him at will.

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis was mortally endangered in King's Landing, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark even Robert's death prove it. Without support of King deeply steeped corruption and influence of mostly Lannisters but also other players couldn't be removed. He made enemies of Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys and Tyrells ( by marrying Florent). 

Oh no one doubts he was in danger, certainly mortally in or around the time Ned's appointed. People criticize him for running away to leave his brother, Ned, and Jon Arryn in danger, for building ships and hiring sellswords while Robert was still alive, and for remaining completely incommunicado to Renly, Ned, and the rest of the council regarding his reasons for withdrawing to DS.

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis is rightful heir of Baratheon bloodline and King of Westeros, all of lords allegiance belongs to the true king not pretenders like Renly.

Robb proclaimed himself a king of North but also had taken over Riverlands - clear act of treason.  

He had chance  to join Stannis through offered pardon but he offered deal to Renly via Catelyn. He was a promising boy, great commander, yet a traitor to the realm.

The real executed his father and imprisoned his sisters under false pretenses, that's a valid casus belli. If you don't believe me, ask Aerys II. Accepting the Riverlands into his kingship, which itself was bad, was an even worse idea.

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is obvious to anyone when confronted with accusation and looking at all of Cersei's children and comparing them to Baratheons or Robert's bastards, most of their lickspitles in King's Landing  ignore it hoping to gain advantage by supporting them.

If that isn't issue , why did Cersei order all of them be killed.  

Renly certainly chooses to ignore something very obvious because he doesn't want to renounce his claim. "Look at me I'm a king".

Even Kevan who hadn't spent so much time with Cersei or her children, doesn't take long to figure it out either.

Cersei didn't order all of them killed. She only killed or threatened to kill a few. She didn't go after Mya Stone or Edric Storm, and frankly I'm not sure how / who from Cersei found out about Gendry.

Renly didn't want to renounce his claim for several reasons: 

1. He doesn't believe the letter, which I cannot emphasize enough given how he thought they were legitimate when he wanted Ned to seize them.
2. If he did believe it, submitting to Stannis shatters his alliance with the Tyrells. Mace wants a grandson on the IT as king, not in the room with all the other courtiers. 
3. He think he'd be a better king anyway 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Renly has more support initally, but Stannis challenges him by besieging Storm's End something that is major threat not because he could ever take it with that meager force , but it puts doubt on his claim to all lords of the realm.

Tarly and others in his council agree he is major threat if left unchecked.

Unless I'm very much mistaken this council takes place after they have gone to Storm's End, and after their negitiation. Of course Renly intended to resolve the Stannis' issue after Stannis had decided to besiege his castle and he had taken all his cavalry to Storm's End to deal with that.

Eventually losing his castle to his brother if the garrison were starved out by Stannis could weaken his claim in the sense that he was seen as king who lost his castle/home - like Robb became the 'King Who Lost the North'.

But there is no indication that the Storm's End siege or the letters had any immediate benefit to Stannis' cause.

Even people like the Antler Men only popped up after Stannis had taken over a portion of Renly's army and had become a real danger for the Kingslanders - who resent the Lannisters since the Sack.

Stannis as a person is less of a danger to Renly than Maester Aemon was to Aegon V - because Renly is popular with the lords and people of the Realm, unlike Egg, who had many enemies among the lords, while Stannis, unlike Maester Aemon, is unpopular as hell, and people are terrified at the prospect that he might rule one day.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Whatever proof he has, he needs to win by military force since most of powerful are corrupt and  respond with slander, treason and tearing the laws.  Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen very appearance is proof enough for some especially when compared with Robert's acknowledged bastards.

Nobody chooses between any of the Baratheon pretenders because of the looks of the children, and nobody abandoned Joffrey or Tommen because of their looks, either, even after Stannis had spread his calumnies.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis was mortally endangered in King's Landing, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark even Robert's death prove it. Without support of King deeply steeped corruption and influence of mostly Lannisters but also other players couldn't be removed. He made enemies of Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys and Tyrells ( by marrying Florent). 

Stannis never says he fled KL because he feared for his life, he left because he was pissed Robert didn't make him his Hand. But if he had been afraid for his life he should have told his brother the king - and his other brother, the Master of Laws - that this was the case. He didn't, which made him a traitor. And even worse of a traitor he turned when Ned wrote to him repeatedly to return but he chose to ignore all that. He could have saved Robert and Ned, and he could have actually become the heir to the Iron Throne if he had gotten Robert convinced by ways of Ned that Cersei children weren't his. Then he may have even gotten support for his bid for the throne if Robert had been killed.

But, no, he couldn't do any of that, so he most definitely doesn't deserve the throne on the basis of a rumor he basically came up all by himself. Because the looks of the children, again, proves nothing. Robert Baratheon also knew how his bastards looked - much better than Stannis did, in fact, if you think about Edric and Mya - in comparison to Cersei's children, but he didn't see them as not his, no matter how all the other historical Baratheons born by fair-haired mothers looked like.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis is rightful heir of Baratheon bloodline and King of Westeros, all of lords allegiance belongs to the true king not pretenders like Renly.

Considering that Robert himself is a filthy usurper being 'Robert's rightful heir' pretty much means nothing. There is a reason why Renly shits on the line of succession - his brother Robert did, too, so why should anyone follow Stannis even if he were Robert's rightful heir?

Obviously this argument was compelling enough for all the Stormlands and the entire Reach, nearly half of the Seven Kingdoms. And Renly has, in the end, as much royal blood as Stannis does. Who cares about the birth order, really? Not that many people, it seems.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Robb proclaimed himself a king of North but also had taken over Riverlands - clear act of treason.

Sure, but you see how unsuited Stannis as a king is when he cannot accept political realities as they are and resorts to black magic to change them rather than making compromises with potential allies. Renly was able to compromise with Robb, Stannis wasn't, showing who was the better kingly material right there.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

If that isn't issue , why did Cersei order all of them be killed.

Because after this calumny about her and Jaime was out - and Ned effectively said that Cersei's children had no right to the throne when he was arrested - they could be used as pretenders against Joffrey and his siblings. If people were to believe that Cersei's children truly had no royal blood then royal bastards could become pretenders against them. Not to mention that they could be used as 'proof' to support the claims that Cersei's children weren't Robert's - not that this was conclusive or anything, but if it is physically impossible to put a bastard of Robert's next to Joff or Tommen then it is difficult to say that said bastards actually looked different.

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Renly certainly chooses to ignore something very obvious because he doesn't want to renounce his claim. "Look at me I'm a king".

Renly never knew or suspected the twincest thing before Stannis' letter reached him. Knowing this would have greatly helped his cause, because it would have only put Stannis between him and the throne, making his case much easier on two fronts - in the anti-Lannister department as well as in the usurper department (he could simply go with 'Nobody wants Stannis as king, that's why I have to do the job').

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Even Kevan who hadn't spent so much time with Cersei or her children, doesn't take long to figure it out either.

He doesn't figure it out - he, like everybody else, had learned about Stannis' story about a year ago. All he does in AFfC is actually confront Cersei with this claim.

If you wanted to claim Kevan figured it out all by himself you would have to point us to evidence confirming that he believed this before he heard about Stannis' letters. Tyrion may have suspected something prior to Stannis' letters, but even in his case that's not clear. Knowing that Jaime and Cersei love each other and may have an affair doesn't equal that Jaime is also the father of all of Cersei's children.

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

The nobles SHOULD be afraid of Stannis. A lot of them deserved to be replaced by new lords. Stannis didn’t play the game, the same bloody game which is killing thousands of people throughout the show. Stannis saw right through the BS and he wasn’t interested in playing along if he could avoid it.

That isn't the proper approach to kingship in this world, especially not for a man who has to win the throne in a succession war first. It is advocating for tyranny, something that was never popular in Westeros even back in the Targaryen dragon days when the kings actually had more means to force through their agendas.

And insofar as the game is concerned - Stannis shares the biggest chunk of the blame for the War of the Five Kings because he failed to inform anyone about his belief about the twincest while Robert was still alive. If this thing had been brought to light the entire succession war may have been avoided because Robert may not have died - or if he died, it may have been clear by then to all that Cersei's children were no longer eligible/alive to succeed to the throne.

Vice versa, he could have just kept out of things and decided to follow Joffrey - he didn't have to start a war to take the throne. That was his choice. And he doesn't have proof. If he was afraid to tell Robert 'the truth' why does he suddenly have the courage to tell everybody after Robert is dead?

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

And while he certainly starts his journey at a very bitter and entitled place, his evolution across the series is a positive one. He embraces the good advice of lowborn men like Davos and bastards like Jon Snow. He listens and changes his methods, winning over the people by defending the realm and recognizing the true threat rather than a toxic and dangerous game that the southern lords kept playing with each other. The same game Renly was always busy playing.

Stannis still sees saving the Realm as a means to win his throne. Granted, it is good that he tries to defend the Realm and defeat the Others, but his next test - the test where we can really see where he stands - comes if/after he has won at Winterfell. What is going to do with the survivors, the Freys and Boltons and other Northmen opposing him he might capture? How many of them will be spared? And how many of them will burn alive or sacrificed to the weirwoods or be executed in a similar manner?

If he shows mercy or pragmatism there, he might have actually changed somewhat. If not, then he is the same guy who burned his uncle-in-law for a nonexisting crime, who ignored the burning of other people done at the behest of his lover and wife, and who started to burn religious icons/sacred places to please his lover, etc.

If Renly had been informed about the Others he would have helped with them, too, one imagines. The man wasn't stupid.

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’m not going to say Renly was a monster, mind you, and I won’t say that Stannis was a charismatic man or that he didn’t make some really messed up choices, but Renly falls by the wayside for me while Stannis is one of the most fascinating characters of the entire series. His transition from someone who demands the dutiful allegiance of people into someone who earns loyalty and leads by example against the wildlings, Boltons, and presumably the Others, that’s the mark of a man who is changing his ways and listening to the right people to be the ruler that Westeros needs, instead of Joffrey or Renly or Tommen or Robert.

Stannis is certainly a great character, but he is still not a very good one - nor an actualy good one, if you take proper standards. As I think I already laid out somewhere - Stannis can be a just ruler and judge if he has no personal connection to you. If you are a peasant with a grievance and you come before Stannis you are likely to actually going to get proper justice from him. And that might really profit many common people.

But if Stannis has a personal connection with you - or if he doesn't like you - then you are fucked. Because the man has severe personal issues - with repressed ambition and sexuality, with his sense of entitlement, with his jealousy of his elder brother's fame and prowess as a charismatic leader and general (and also his younger brother emulating said elder brother).

The entire reason why Stannis abandoned Robert and Ned to Cersei's mercy is a similar reason why Lysa abandoned Robb and Catelyn to the Lannisters and their allies - because he has issues with Robert, he is jealous of the strong bond Robert had with Ned and that Robert would prefer Ned, his brother of choice, as Hand to Stannis, his actual brother.

That isn't the kind of guy you want in charge, not truly.

And, honestly, as Theon 1 shows - Stannis didn't really change. He isn't nice to even his most loyal followers, the men who are freezing and starving with him in the snow. Just reread how he talks to Massey and Horpe in the sample chapter.

I've said it before and I'm going to repeat it here: If Stannis is going to die there is a pretty good chance that his loyal men - who are called 'queen's men' for a reason, I might add - may end up betraying or even killing him. The latter scenario could mean they make him into another great sacrifice to R'hllor (possibly even at Mel's behest who they are actually beholden to) or simply kill him because they can no longer suffer the man. And if they betray him his stint as king may end like the short reign of Argella Durrandon, his distant ancestor.

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

How many other characters in Westeros’ noble class would ever even consider Davos for an advisor, let alone reward him with a knighthood and land?

Well, just think of Jaehaerys I and Septon Barth. Or Aegon V and Dunk. Not to mention that Robert himself made it clear he wouldn't have taken Davos' fingertips. Stannis uses Davos for his loyalty, but he only starts to truly listen to him after he no longer has (m)any other competent advisors.

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

Say what you will about Stannis and his many questionable traits or actions, but i admire his ability to look past rank and recognize real character in a person, whether they’re a smuggler or the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. And for all people talk about Stannis being loathed, he did inspire fierce loyalty in his followers. Clayton Suggs, an otherwise loathsome little creature with a desire to torture, was prepared to die bravely in defence of Stannis. Davos, one of the most moral characters in the story, is completely devoted to Stannis because he recognizes the good in him and his potential to be a good ruler. And by that logic, he wouldn’t have been afraid to punish nobles who abused their power. Varys talked about how terrifying a truly just man is. That just man is Stannis, and in this story’s universe, where corruption rules and intoxicates, a just ruler is necessary to break through the classist system and implement justice, just like Aegon III and Aegon V wanted to do.

Stannis no longer is a truly just man the moment he starts to use sorcery to murder people who stand in his way. That isn't just.

The fact that Stannis surrounds himself with, for the most part, pretty bad people is also not exactly a positive trait. Most of the queen's men are cruel thugs or hypocrites. Aside from Davos and Cressen Stannis doesn't have any good people around him - with the possible exception of Melisandre. Especially after the last king's men leave to save Edric Storm from Stannis.

12 hours ago, James Steller said:

Maybe Stannis wasn’t ready for the throne in the second book, to be honest. I can admit to that. But by the end of the fifth book, he’s evolved and has shown a worthiness to be king, more so than I ever saw in Renly. 

Renly didn't get the time to shine. He definitely had the potential to be the best king of the Baratheons (including Cersei's children) with the possible exception of Myrcella (who by the way she is depicted in AFfC could grow into a fine ruler).

But let's wait and see what Stannis does should he win at Winterfell. That will be his next great test. Will he only crack when he decides to sacrifice Shireen later in the story? Or is that only going to be the endpoint of another reign of terror? We don't know at that point.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis is rightful heir of Baratheon bloodline and King of Westeros, all of lords allegiance belongs to the true king not pretenders like Renly.

And what if they don't want him?? It's the same conversation about the Targs, the fact that Stannis or the Targs believe the Realm belongs to them doesn't mean anything if said Realm does not want them back. If they rather a shiny and shallow pretender like Renly, well shit happens.

 

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It is obvious to anyone when confronted with accusation and looking at all of Cersei's children and comparing them to Baratheons or Robert's bastards, most of their lickspitles in King's Landing  ignore it hoping to gain advantage by supporting them.

Tywin didn't know it. And Renly didn't know Robert bastards, he dumped Edric at Storm's End, and didn't care about them at all.

 

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Even Kevan who hadn't spent so much time with Cersei or her children, doesn't take long to figure it out either.

Kevan knows his nephew and niece since they were babies.

 

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Renly certainly chooses to ignore something very obvious because he doesn't want to renounce his claim. "Look at me I'm a king".

Why?? He's making clear he is going to pass over everyone and his men are fine with that, why should he lie??

 

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If that isn't issue , why did Cersei order all of them be killed.  

 

The eunuch’s smile was sly. “That might take rather a long time, my good lord. I know quite a lot.” “Not enough to save this child, it would seem.” “Alas, no. There was another bastard, a boy, older. I took steps to see him removed from harm’s way … but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A baseborn girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother. What threat could she pose?” “She was Robert’s,” Tyrion said bitterly. “That was enough for Cersei, it would seem.”

 

 

 

 

 

[Canon Claude]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis is certainly a great character, but he is still not a very good one - nor an actualy good one, if you take proper standards. As I think I already laid out somewhere - Stannis can be a just ruler and judge if he has no personal connection to you. If you are a peasant with a grievance and you come before Stannis you are likely to actually going to get proper justice from him. And that might really profit many common people.

But if Stannis has a personal connection with you - or if he doesn't like you - then you are fucked. Because the man has severe personal issues - with repressed ambition and sexuality, with his sense of entitlement, with his jealousy of his elder brother's fame and prowess as a charismatic leader and general (and also his younger brother emulating said elder brother).

Isn't that how impartiality normally works? In our society, a judge must recuse themselves if they are too personally connected to a case. A doctor can't operate on their own relatives. Of course Stannis wouldn't be passing judgement on his own relatives, if he's being ethical, but he also wouldn't shelter them from consequences either. He'd let the law take its course regardless, whether he was personally judging or not. He could always get his Hand to pass judgement in cases like that.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Isn't that how impartiality normally works? In our society, a judge must recuse themselves if they are too personally connected to a case. A doctor can't operate on their own relatives. Of course Stannis wouldn't be passing judgement on his own relatives, if he's being ethical, but he also wouldn't shelter them from consequences either. He'd let the law take its course regardless, whether he was personally judging or not. He could always get his Hand to pass judgement in cases like that.

The issue is more that Stannis is really biased against his own relatives thanks to his feelings for them - because he loathes most of them, and their friends, I might add.

And it is not that he ever comes up with a good or positive idea himself - he always need Davos to spill out the right thing for him, to urge or flat-out beg him to do the right thing for there being a chance that he does it. His natural tendency is to give in to his darker traits ... to use the red falcon, if you will.

[Bael's Bastard]

If Stannis had been willing to bend the knee, I am sure Renly would have restored Storm's End to Stannis and his descendants, and probably even invited him onto his small council. As long as the Tyrells were on board, and didn't convince him not to trust Stannis.

[GoldenGail3]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:01 AM, Lord Varys said:

But let's wait and see what Stannis does should he win at Winterfell. That will be his next great test. Will he only crack when he decides to sacrifice Shireen later in the story? Or is that only going to be the endpoint of another reign of terror? We don't know at that point.

Omg he’s not going to burn Shireen in the books. He literally told the mercs to go crown her if he ends up dead. Ignore the shows shit, some of it is untrue and unbelievable, this being amongst one of them.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Omg he’s not going to burn Shireen in the books. He literally told the mercs to go crown her if he ends up dead. Ignore the shows shit, some of it is untrue and unbelievable, this being amongst one of them.

If that's going to happen - and it is a thing that comes from George - then Stannis is the best and most interesting story. Of course it is not going to happen soon. It can only happen much later when Stannis is more desperate, and winter and hunger have the North in their grip, and the Others come knocking at the door, etc.

The idea he would do something like that while fighting mortal foes and being stuck in some kind of autumn snowstorm is indeed crap. The key mistake people make there is to believe Shireen has to die soon. She won't before her father returns to the Wall. And not before things take a turn for the worse.

When things get really bad there is going to come a time when this whole 'kill one to save the world' crap we got with Edric back in ASoS will be revisited. You remember, most likely, that Stannis didn't make a choice back then in the books - meaning the decision is still in the air. It will be harder with his daughter, but if faced with the prospect of certain death for all (including the girl) and the tiny chance that such a sacrifice is going to make a difference Stannis will do it.

And this whole thing with Selyse turning against Stannis and Melisandre and R'hllor then is also something that I see coming from George. In the books she is the one who spends time with her daughter and cares for her, not Stannis. He didn't so much as talk to the girl in the books so far.

It will be still wrong, of course, one of the most monstrous scenes in the entire series, and it most likely will break Stannis completely, but he is going to do that. There is no doubt about this.

This isn't a fairy-tale story where the evil villains are going to sacrifice the innocent child. No, it is a story where Shireen's merciless father is going to do that.

[GoldenGail3]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If that's going to happen - and it is a thing that comes from George - then Stannis is the best and most interesting story. Of course it is not going to happen soon. It can only happen much later when Stannis is more desperate, and winter and hunger have the North in their grip, and the Others come knocking at the door, etc.

The idea he would do something like that while fighting mortal foes and being stuck in some kind of autumn snowstorm is indeed crap. The key mistake people make there is to believe Shireen has to die soon. She won't before her father returns to the Wall. And not before things take a turn for the worse.

When things get really bad there is going to come a time when this whole 'kill one to save the world' crap we got with Edric back in ASoS will be revisited. You remember, most likely, that Stannis didn't make a choice back then in the books - meaning the decision is still in the air. It will be harder with his daughter, but if faced with the prospect of certain death for all (including the girl) and the tiny chance that such a sacrifice is going to make a difference Stannis will do it.

And this whole thing with Selyse turning against Stannis and Melisandre and R'hllor then is also something that I see coming from George. In the books she is the one who spends time with her daughter and cares for her, not Stannis. He didn't so much as talk to the girl in the books so far.

It will be still wrong, of course, one of the most monstrous scenes in the entire series, and it most likely will break Stannis completely, but he is going to do that. There is no doubt about this.

This isn't a fairy-tale story where the evil villains are going to sacrifice the innocent child. No, it is a story where Shireen's merciless father is going to do that.

I know that, but I seriously doubt it’s going to happen though. I think it’s far more likely that Meli does it without Stannis’s knowledge to bring back Jon.. that is if he’s even brought back to life to begin with.

[Eltharion21]

On 6/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, frenin said:

And what if they don't want him?? It's the same conversation about the Targs, the fact that Stannis or the Targs believe the Realm belongs to them doesn't mean anything if said Realm does not want them back. If they rather a shiny and shallow pretender like Renly, well shit happens.

I believe Great Council will happen certainly sometime in the novel, whoever contenders be at that time is less certain.  If all claimants at the time of Five Kings would put their case before all lords of Westeros without use of treachery than it would be most just solution, but alas that wasn't possible, so every claimant uses his tools to gain their goal. ( Popularity, Treachery, Bribery, Indimidation, Military Power, Naval Supremacy, Blood Magic) 

Great part of the book might be examining ideas of power, justice, revenge, good or evil, like Power riddle Varys makes.  

In hindsight we see that Iron Gauntlet and Silken Glove should had cooperated, neither make great king on their own, one is more fit for Winter King other for Summer King.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, frenin said:

Tywin didn't know it. And Renly didn't know Robert bastards, he dumped Edric at Storm's End, and didn't care about them at all.

Tywin was more preoccupied by forging his dynastic legacy. His gravitas and power of his house is what would detract any rumors or their bastardy, which could only gather strength with third child not looking like Baratheon, Even if he doubted it his legacy was far more important to allow that to ruin it.

He is also know to be capable for strong denial, for example when Tyrion confronts him with murder and rape of Elia Martell, or to see that Tyrion is his son more than any other of his children.

Anyone who was at the court and had witnessed appearance of three Cersei's children, her closeness with her brother, appearance of Robert's bastards even if not read "Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" would be enough to recognize truth in those accusations , unless willing to ignore it for some reason.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, frenin said:

Why?? He's making clear he is going to pass over everyone and his men are fine with that, why should he lie??

His men changed allegiance to his brother moment he died, and others joined Joffery, so much for his idea.

His plan is to ignore laws, traditions and conventions and if his plan is successful places dangerous precedent, any popular person in the future could easily do the same. 

In Roman Times dictators like Sulla influenced next wave of men with similar ambitions in two triumvirates, which embroidered Roman Republic in 2 civil wars, and later even more.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, frenin said:

The eunuch’s smile was sly. “That might take rather a long time, my good lord. I know quite a lot.” “Not enough to save this child, it would seem.” “Alas, no. There was another bastard, a boy, older. I took steps to see him removed from harm’s way … but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A baseborn girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother. What threat could she pose?” “She was Robert’s,” Tyrion said bitterly. “That was enough for Cersei, it would seem.”

Yes because Cersei no matter how dull, still knew appearance of his bastards places doubt in parentage of her children and endangers her family.

 

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

I believe Great Council will happen certainly sometime in the novel, whoever contenders be at that time is less certain.  If all claimants at the time of Five Kings would put their case before all lords of Westeros without use of treachery than it would be most just solution, but alas that wasn't possible, so every claimant uses his tools to gain their goal. ( Popularity, Treachery, Bribery, Indimidation, Military Power, Naval Supremacy, Blood Magic) 

Great part of the book might be examining ideas of power, justice, revenge, good or evil, like Power riddle Varys makes.  

In hindsight we see that Iron Gauntlet and Silken Glove should had cooperated, neither make great king on their own, one is more fit for Winter King other for Summer King.

Sure this is a world of bigger army diplomacy but people need to like you first to lent you their armies.

 

11 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Tywin was more preoccupied by forging his dynastic legacy. His gravitas and power of his house is what would detract any rumors or their bastardy, which could only gather strength with third child not looking like Baratheon, Even if he doubted it his legacy was far more important to allow that to ruin it.

And yet he didn't know it.

 

12 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Anyone who was at the court and had witnessed appearance of three Cersei's children, her closeness with her brother, appearance of Robert's bastards even if not read "Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms" would be enough to recognize truth in those accusations , unless willing to ignore it for some reason.

Hmm and Renly hadn't done two of those three. Are the Starks children Edmure's bastards?? People don't believe that children are bastards just because they don't look like their father and Stannis only got to believe it because he indeed read that book and discovered that in Lannister-Baratheon matches, the children always look like the Baratheon parent. If not he would too have dismissed it.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

His men changed allegiance to his brother moment he died, and others joined Joffery, so much for his idea.

Yep, the moment he died. The Stormlands also changed allegiance to Joffrey the moment Stannis was beaten.

 

16 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

His plan is to ignore laws, traditions and conventions and if his plan is successful places dangerous precedent, any popular person in the future could easily do the same. 

Meh, Aegon did it, Robert did it. Maegor did it. The world didn't become an anarchy.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

In Roman Times dictators like Sulla influenced next wave of men with similar ambitions in two triumvirates, which embroidered Roman Republic in 2 civil wars, and later even more.

Sure, Renly simply isn't Sulla. He didn't invent usurpation.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Yes because Cersei no matter how dull, still knew appearance of his bastards places doubt in parentage of her children and endangers her family

A baseborn 1 year old girl is not a danger to anyone with half a brain. 

[Minsc]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, James Steller said:

 There’s only three people who speak highly of Renly‘s capabilities and character, far as I can remember, and one of them is Renly himself. The other two are in love with him, so I take their opinions with a grain of salt. Cressen, Donal Noye, Olenna, they all dismiss him when they have no stake in opposing him.

There is also the people that supported Renly over Stannis and loved him best like Randyll Tarly and Mathis Rowan. 

Didn't Cressen and Noye last see Renly when he was around six and Cressen is highly biased.  Olenna only says anything negative that we see after he is dead and no longer of any use in attempt to make herself look smarter.  You like how she pretends she dumped her Targaryen prince, when in reality he dumped her because he liked dudes.

[Minsc]

On 6/26/2020 at 11:01 AM, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't figure it out - he, like everybody else, had learned about Stannis' story about a year ago. All he does in AFfC is actually confront Cersei with this claim.

If you wanted to claim Kevan figured it out all by himself you would have to point us to evidence confirming that he believed this before he heard about Stannis' letters. Tyrion may have suspected something prior to Stannis' letters, but even in his case that's not clear. Knowing that Jaime and Cersei love each other and may have an affair doesn't equal that Jaime is also the father of all of Cersei's children.

Not to mention, Lancel probably confessed to his father about his affair with Cersei and his role in Robert's death both key hints to Kevan that there was probably some truth to Stannis's claim.