Illyrio’s intentions

[TheLastWolf]

Lord Cheese has done so much for both Dany and fAegon’s causes…even with all the dangers and risks involved, that I cannot help but wonder WHY?

Tyrion does not believe the reasons given by Mopatis and neither do I. One cannot grow as rich as Illyrio if they have scruples and honor, certainly not if they support two rebels at the same time, Illyrio has spent so much for their causes and stands to lose everything if who he backs should fail and his support to them be discovered. I cannot imagine his fellow Pentoshi magisters taking kindly to him dealing secretly behind their backs…and neither would the victor on the Iron throne spare his/her rivals’ backer.

His reason that he wishes to do something good for a change would not fool even Moonboy for a heartbeat. He’s got all the gold he could ever want and his manse is more secure than half the castles in Westeros. Tyrion agrees to that much that it’s not coin or Lordship that Lord Cheese wants. What else?

The only reason I could think of is Fire and Blood. Not the book, but a dragon egg should any of Dany’s three lay a clutch (dragons can change their sex at will to reproduce) may be what Illyrio lusts for. What else does he lack for? Him riding a dragon would surely be a sight to behold….though not more than him falling off.

That, or he owes Lord Varys big time (something from their shady past I guess). I would soon believe that Cersei is the Maiden herself before believing that all Illyrio is doing is to do something good for a change.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Some say he is a Blackfyre.  If not, at least somebody who believe in their cause.  I would not be too sure about this.

He has enough money to last his lifetime. The missing trophy is a lordship. He wants to become noble.  Call it social climbing.  He wants a title.  A friendly Targaryen on the throne can make it happen.

[TheLastWolf]

3 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He has enough money to last his lifetime. The missing trophy is a lordship. He wants to become noble.  Call it social climbing.  He wants a title.

Sorry...that's ruled out.

excerpts from awoiaf ch 5 ADWD explanation

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" ...but Tyrion is suspicious: why does Illyrio have a stake in helping Daenerys claim the Iron Throne? Instead of answering, the merchant tells of how when he first met her..."

"....Tyrion presses Illyrio, wanting to know why a slaver city like Volantis and a man such as Illyrio would want to assist Daenerys, and he says that her brother promised him the position of Master of Coin and the castle of his choice...."

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"...Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something more in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles..."

The last one is an excerpt from the novel itself.

[broken one]

for the money he has he could buy any title anywhere. moreover, he is big fish in pentos already. I also think there are easier and more effective ways to become westerosi master of coin than the things he is doing (if that's what he wants).

maybe he is an idealist and wants to reach political goal - build heaven on earth with varys. soviet republics of westeros. judging by his habits and lifestyle it is not very probable.

maybe he is into prophecies and magic ooga booga and expects to lay his hands on some kind of power which is going to appear? immortality for himself? eternal youth? bringing serra back to life? no idea. but that's not the thing his buddy varys would approve ( if we can believe varys).

[TheLastWolf]

40 minutes ago, broken one said:

maybe he is into prophecies and magic ooga booga and expects to lay his hands on some kind of power which is going to appear? immortality for himself? eternal youth? bringing serra back to life?

Most likely point as of now man, Cool. 

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no idea. but that's not the thing his buddy varys would approve ( if we can believe varys).

Yes varys can't hate sorcery and support it (via Dany) at same time 

[Lady Rhodes]

I agree. I don’t think it’s titles and I am

dubious of the idea of him

being a Blackfyre. The Blackfyres do not feature largely in this story or even in the pre Roberts Rebellion time sans the mention of Barristan slaying Maelys the Monstrous. Not saying that it couldn’t happened but I would be disappointed. The build up for a Blackfyre reveal in the canonical main story is just not there.

[Megorova]

I'm sure that Varys is a Blackfyre, so was his sister Serra. Illyrio was married to Serra, and Varys was his best friend and brother-in-law. fAegon is a Blackfyre (not Serra's child). Varys and Serra wanted to restore Blackfyre-dynasty, and to place a Blackfyre on Iron Throne. Then Serra died, and Illyrio in commemoration of her wanted to fulfill her dream, and is helping Varys to do that.

Illyrio didn't expected that dragon eggs will hatch. He temporarely gave them to Dany/Drogo. Eventually Jorah was supposed to steal them, and get them back to Illyrio, after Drogo and his Dothraki would have seized Iron Throne for fAegon. When he sent those three ships to get Dany, he did it not to aid her, but to get his dragons. Those ships were loaded with trading cargo, they weren't sent from Pentos just to fetch Dany, they were also going to do business on their way back. He sent three ships because he wanted to separate those dragons, and to place one dragon on each ship. Then, in case if one of the dragons will burn the ship and escape, he still will have the other two. He didn't expected that Dany will be brazen enough to take over the command of those ships, that she will keep all three dragons with her on the same ship, and that she will take his ships and will sail elsewhere. When he saw her last time, she was a meek and timid girl, so he thought that it will be easy to bring her to Pentos and to use her and her dragons.

I think that Barristan Selmy is fAegon's father, and that Barri's mother was one of Aenys Blackfyre's daughters. fAegon's mother is septa Lemore/Lady Jeyne Swann. Barristan saved her from Kingswood Brotherhood in early 281. That's when fAegon was conceived. Jeyne was escorted by a fake septa, Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour. And they gave love potion to Barristan, for Jeyne to get his child. The Kingswood Brotherhood specifically for this mission was overtaken by Varys' people, they got joined by Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight (members of Golden Company). Prior that the KB's leader was Wenda the White Fawn, Brienne Tarth's mother and descendant of Duncan the Tall, later became Pretty Meris and joined Windblown sellswords company. Could be that Big Belly Ben also was one of Varys' people, and that he and Strong Belwas is the same person.

If my theory is correct, then Dany's two closest people, that are supposed to be her devoted bodyguards, are actually the most dangerous to her. Because Belwas was loyally serving to Blackfyres for the last 19 years, and Barristan Selmy won't support Dany, when he will find out that his son is Dany's main rival over Iron Throne. When he will meet septa Lemore, he will realise that fAegon is his son. And he's aware that he's a Blackfyre, that's why he became a Kingsguard. He became devoted to Targaryens after he met Duncan the Small. And he killed Maelys Blackfyre, even though it was a kinslaying, because Maelys himself also was a kinslayer and killed his cousin Daemon. Could be that Daemon was Barristan's brother, or half-brother (same mother, different fathers). If Dany will order Barristan to kill fAegon, then we will have a repeat of situation when King Aerys ordered his Kingsguard Jaime Lannister to kill his father Tywin. Jaime had chosen blood over duty, and killed Aerys. For the sake of his son, Barristan may do the same - he will try to kill (or will kill) Dany. The last treason predicted to Dany by the Undying - the treason for love, Barristan will betray his Queen for his son.

Thus, Illyrio's intentions are to fulfill written by GRRM prophecies - "treason for love" (fulfilled by setting Barri amongst Dany's people) and "beware of the perfumed seneschal" (fulfilled by setting Lemore as fAegon's tutor. Septa Lemore is the perfumed seneschal, because she is a parallel to Lady Jonquil, and Barristan is a parallel to Florian the Fool; and Jeyne's ancestor, Johanna Swann (mother of Larra Rogare, and thru her ancestor of Aegon IV and all current Targaryens and Blackfyres), worked as a courtesan in the Perfumed Garden of Lys. And in medieval ages jonquil oil was used as a component for making perfumes).

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Prior that the KB's leader was Wenda the White Fawn, Brienne Tarth's mother and descendant of Duncan the Tall, later became Pretty Meris and joined Windblown sellswords company. Could be that Big Belly Ben also was one of Varys' people, and that he and Strong Belwas is the same person.

please explain all this.

how could Brienne's mother be so cruel as to become someone like Pretty meris and brienne had a brother too(galladon). what explanation is there for the confusing ages. and duncan the tall relation...how? why would she join Windblown?

pls explain in the following context.

 

strong belwas theory atleast somewhat believable.

and Ser Barristan is not Jaime, he's too honorable to betray Dany.

[Lluewhyn]

fAegon is his son. It's that simple. It's unlikely that Illyrio himself has Targaryen blood, but his wife Serra did, hence his comment about the "Blackfyres being extinguished in the male line. Varys may or may not be a Blackfyre, but Illyrio's major motivation is to see his son become king.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

On 6/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Lord Cheese has done so much for both Dany and fAegon’s causes…even with all the dangers and risks involved, that I cannot help but wonder WHY?

Tyrion does not believe the reasons given by Mopatis and neither do I. One cannot grow as rich as Illyrio if they have scruples and honor, certainly not if they support two rebels at the same time, Illyrio has spent so much for their causes and stands to lose everything if who he backs should fail and his support to them be discovered. I cannot imagine his fellow Pentoshi magisters taking kindly to him dealing secretly behind their backs…and neither would the victor on the Iron throne spare his/her rivals’ backer.

His reason that he wishes to do something good for a change would not fool even Patchface for a heartbeat. He’s got all the gold he could ever want and his manse is more secure than half the castles in Westeros. Tyrion agrees to that much that it’s not coin or Lordship that Lord Cheese wants. What else?

The only reason I could think of is Fire and Blood. Not the book, but a dragon egg should any of Dany’s three lay a clutch (dragons can change their sex at will to reproduce) may be what Illyrio lusts for. What else does he lack for? Him riding a dragon would surely be a sight to behold….though not more than him falling off.

That, or he owes Lord Varys big time (something from their shady past I guess). I would soon believe that Cersei is the Maiden herself before believing that all Illyrio is doing is to do something good for a change.

Firstly, Patchface is a genius... He has a ability similar to Ghost of High Heart, dont throw dirt on his name.

Secodnly, Illyrio is a follower of R’hollor, perhaps his religious beliefs have bounded him to Fire and Blood (Dany/Aegon (hes legit). Remember the Magister dont like Illyrio hes already on his own. If Aegon is fake, perhaps the story of him being Illyrio’s son makes sense and explains why he is supporting his cause. Brining Dany to his side only strengthens their power. 

When it’s all said and done. I think the Varys/Illyrio partnership will end with them being foes and Varys killing him. The key player in the Golden Company is their master of whispers. I would imagine him and Varys are in communication more often then him and Illyrio givingVarys the upper hand.

Also if Aegon is legit, Varys is probably one of 4-6 people alive that know the truth behind Aegoes identity. Even Aegon doesnt know he thinks hes the son of Rhaegar and Elia. 

[John Suburbs]

On 6/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Lord Cheese has done so much for both Dany and fAegon’s causes…even with all the dangers and risks involved, that I cannot help but wonder WHY?

Tyrion does not believe the reasons given by Mopatis and neither do I. One cannot grow as rich as Illyrio if they have scruples and honor, certainly not if they support two rebels at the same time, Illyrio has spent so much for their causes and stands to lose everything if who he backs should fail and his support to them be discovered. I cannot imagine his fellow Pentoshi magisters taking kindly to him dealing secretly behind their backs…and neither would the victor on the Iron throne spare his/her rivals’ backer.

His reason that he wishes to do something good for a change would not fool even Patchface for a heartbeat. He’s got all the gold he could ever want and his manse is more secure than half the castles in Westeros. Tyrion agrees to that much that it’s not coin or Lordship that Lord Cheese wants. What else?

The only reason I could think of is Fire and Blood. Not the book, but a dragon egg should any of Dany’s three lay a clutch (dragons can change their sex at will to reproduce) may be what Illyrio lusts for. What else does he lack for? Him riding a dragon would surely be a sight to behold….though not more than him falling off.

That, or he owes Lord Varys big time (something from their shady past I guess). I would soon believe that Cersei is the Maiden herself before believing that all Illyrio is doing is to do something good for a change.

Illyrio is using the Iron Throne to bring down the Iron Bank and crash the Braavosi economy.

The first step was to bankroll Littlefinger to make it seem like he's a financial wizard when he's really just a conman. Then, leverage LF's connections with Lysa to have Jon Arryn bring him to King's Landing where he can maneuver his way to MoC. Next, LF runs up the crown's debt, pulling money from three principal rivals: the IB, and Houses Tyrell and Lannister. Once a critical amount has been borrowed, LF leaves the Treasury to some poor sap who suddenly runs out of money, leaving the crown unable to pay back its loans. Then, the IB does what it always does, loans even more money to a rival claimant to the crown who will theoretically pay back everything one he is crowned king. Illyrio, of course, has his own king, whose first act will be to declare that usurpers' debts are their own and the Iron Throne will not honor them, except maybe for houses that provide their full support to his new dynasty. 

In the meantime, income to the Iron Bank is taking even greater hits by the disruption to the slave trade. And if Stannis dies, then that money is gone too and the IB has no other legitimate claimant to back -- it would literally have to conquer all of Westeros, house by house, to get its money back. Its immediate response to all of this is to start calling in loans all across Westeros, which may appear to be a pressure tactic to get the crown to pay up. But if it is, it will only hurt the bank even more by disrupting the Westeros economy and making it even more difficult for the crown to generate income. In banking circles, BTW, the first sign that a bank is in trouble is when it starts calling in performing loans. It means the bank needs to sacrifice future ongoing profitability to raise cash now. This is also why Nestor agreed to the loan to the Nights Watch after first saying it was impossible -- the wildling treasures it least brought some much-needed cash in exchange for a future line of credit.

With the bank's balance sheet running low, all it takes is for one depositor to be declined a withdrawal to create a run on the bank. And who would that depositor be? Why none other than Littlefinger (working through a proxy, of course) who, in a delicious bit of irony, has built up an account with the very money that the IB loaned the crown in the first place. Once panic sets in, the IB could go bankrupt in a day -- just like the Bank of Rogare did. And with the bank no longer able to back the iron coin with gold reserves, the Braavosi economy collapses, and Pentos can finally tear up the peace treaty it signed nearly a century ago that prevents it from raising its own army and forbids rich men like Illyrio from getting even richer by selling slaves.

After that, Illyrio could care less what happens to Westeros and the Iron Throne.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 6/24/2020 at 7:54 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Illyrio has spent so much for their causes and stands to lose everything if who he backs should fail and his support to them be discovered. I cannot imagine his fellow Pentoshi magisters taking kindly to him dealing secretly behind their backs

Robert knew Illyrio was sheltering the Targaryens, but he couldn't do anything about it. Part of it was that Varys was secretly helping Illyrio, but it's also the case that the Westerosi have limited ability to project power into Essos. Essosi political figures aren't averse to meddling with Westeros though. The Golden Company had a marriage alliance there, and the Sealord of Braavos signed as a witness to a plot to marry Arianne to the exiled Viserys.

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…and neither would the victor on the Iron throne spare his/her rivals’ backer.

The GC and Young Griff seem entirely aware that Illyrio had been planning on backing Viserys' invasion alongside a Dothraki horde, later changed to just linking their forces up with Dany and her dragons. They aren't thinking about any Targaryen civil war, instead all Targaryens represent a threat to the Baratheon-Lannister regime.

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Tyrion agrees to that much that it’s not coin or Lordship that Lord Cheese wants. What else?

Tyrion agrees to that much that it’s not coin or Lordship that Lord Cheese wants. What else?

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Jake Gittes:
I just want to know what you're worth. Over ten million?

Noah Cross:
Oh my, yes.

Jake Gittes:
Why are you doing it? How much better can you eat? What can you buy that you can't already afford?

Noah Cross:
The future, Mr. Gittes, the future.

 

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That, or he owes Lord Varys big time (something from their shady past I guess).

Illyrio rose up from beeing a penniless bravo to a mean of great wealth thanks to Varys. Though we can't be sure that means Illyrio actually feels obligated to Varys.

On 6/24/2020 at 8:22 AM, broken one said:

for the money he has he could buy any title anywhere

Aristocrats look down on merchants. Titles aren't supposed to be for sale.

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maybe he is into prophecies and magic ooga booga

I lean against that, but his ownership of three dragon eggs is notable.

On 6/24/2020 at 9:02 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Yes varys can't hate sorcery and support it (via Dany) at same time 

Varys doesn't think of Dany as a sorceress. I know that many readers regard the burning of Mirri Maz Duur as a bloodmagic ritual which wakened the dragon eggs, but since Dany wasn't known to be a magic user it's simple to interpret as just punishing someone who betrayed her (Stannis punishes men for cannibalism, but the involvement of Melisandre shades it more into a sacrifice to R'hllor).

[broken one]

7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aristocrats look down on merchants. Titles aren't supposed to be for sale

Aristocrats look down on promoted nobility just the same, especially if reason for the promotion was other than courage on a battlefield. In fact the title from Targs would be bought - for all the financial and material support he provided.

Selling titles used to be normal deal in many places and times. In the world of asoiaf it would fit well imo.

Personaly I doubt he is kind of person craving such things.

[TheLastWolf]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:23 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Firstly, Patchface is a genius... He has a ability similar to Ghost of High Heart, dont throw dirt on his name.

Okay OK, I agree about Patchface... Just that my point was that a fool wouldn't fall for it. 

I'll change it into Moonboy for you. 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Okay OK, I agree about Patchface... Just that my point was that a fool wouldn't fall for it. 

I'll change it into Moonboy for you. 

Change it to mushroom and you got a deal

[Megorova]

On 6/25/2020 at 12:23 PM, TheLastWolf said:

how could Brienne's mother be so cruel as to become someone like Pretty meris

Why not? Look at the bigger pircture.

If she is Duncan the Tall's descendant (same as Gregor Clegane, the Mountain), then she is bloodrelated to this people (if Dunk is a Blackfyre, Daemon's son):

Spoiler

- Maelys the Monstrous.

"Maelys killed Daemon's destrier, and then twisted Daemon's head until he tore it from his shoulders."

- Aegon the Unworthy.

"In 178 AC, Aegon caught one of his Kingsguard knights, Ser Terrence Toyne, sleeping with one of his mistresses, Lady Bethany Bracken. Even though they proclaimed love, Aegon had them both executed.^[15] Terrence was dismembered piece by piece, while Bethany was forced to watch before meeting her own death.^[16] Aegon also had Bethany's father, Lord Bracken, who had once served as his Hand of the King, executed just for spite."

"Aegon was a decadent, corrupt ruler who indulged his passions and whims at every opportunity. Being attractive, he was popular with women both highborn and lowborn. He had as many as nine mistresses and many bastards. Supposedly, he had any woman he wanted, whether they were married or not.^[12][13]

Aegon's misrule started with small acts of pleasure, but in time his appetites knew no bounds and his corruption and oppression led to acts that would haunt the realm for generations to come. He filled his court not with men who were noble, wise, or honest, but with those who could flatter and amuse him. The women at court were largely those who could do the same, letting him slake his lusts upon their bodies. On his whims he gave to one House while taking from another."

- Aegon II Targaryen.

"Following the Storming of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra fled to Dragonstone in 130 AC. Unaware of Aegon's coup, she was captured on arrival, judged a traitor, and fed by Aegon to Sunfyre, as Rhaenyra's surviving son, Prince Aegon the Younger, watched."

- Aerys the Mad King.

"By now, Aerys had become aware of the tales being told in his kingdoms; that it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms and that Aerys was but a hollow figurehead. These statements greatly angered the king. When Lord Tywin's captain of the guard, Ser Ilyn Payne, had been overheard to repeat this statement, Aerys had the man's tongue torn out with hot pincers."

"This changed when Jaehaerys died later that same year. In a black rage, Aerys had the boy's wet nurse beheaded, convinced it had been her fault. He soon had a change of heart, and declared that his mistress was to blame, having poisoned the young babe. Aerys had her and her entire family tortured and eventually executed. Under torture, all confessed to murdering Prince Jaehaerys, though their accounts on Jaehaerys's death greatly differed from one another."

"Lord Denys immediately surrendered and begged for mercy, but in his fury Aerys immediately had him beheaded. His rage still not sated, the king next ordered House Darklyn utterly destroyed, along with House Hollard, which had sided with them. Every last member of both families was tortured at excruciating length before being burned alive, with the sole exception of the child Dontos Hollard, who was spared only at Ser Barristan's pleading."

"Aerys grew brutal, capricious and increasingly fascinated with fire, especially the highly flammable substance known as wildfire which was said to be a cousin to dragonflame. By 280 AC, Aerys had taken to using wildfire for executing alleged traitors, rather than hangings and beheadings. The pyromancers became a fixture at the king's court and Wisdom Rossart, who carried out the executions, was eventually named to the small council. All the executions by fire aroused the king and, while he and his wife had slept in separate chambers for some years and avoided each other by day as well, Aerys would always claim his marriage rights after such an execution by fire, brutally abusing his wife in bed."

"When Lord Rickard Stark demanded a trial by combat, King Aerys chose fire as his champion. Lord Rickard was burned alive by wildfire as Brandon was forced to watch, strapped into a torture device that caused him to strangle himself in his attempts to save his father."

- Aerion Brightflame Targaryen.

"Aegon loathed his brother, the cruel and sadistic Aerion, who threw Aegon's pet cat down a well. Aerion once visited Aegon in his bedroom during the dead of night, put a knife to Aegon's privates, and joked about removing his genitals so he would become a girl whom Aerion could marry."

"And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle's arm in both hands. She was on her knees, pleading with him. Aerion ignored her. He forced open her hand and seized one of her fingers. Dunk stood there stupidly, not quite believing what he saw. Then he heard a crack, and Tanselle screamed."

"At the last possible instant, Ser Humfrey's stallion reared away from the oncoming point, eyes rolling in terror, but too late, Aerion's lance took the animal just above the armor that protected his breastbone, and exploded out of the back of his neck in a gout of bright blood. Screaming, the horse crashed sideways, knocking the wooden barrier to pieces as he fell. Ser Humfrey tried to leap free, but a foot caught in a stirrup and they heard his shriek as his leg was crushed between the splintered fence and falling horse.

All of Ashford Meadow was shouting. Men ran onto the field to extricate Ser Humfrey, but the stallion, dying in agony, kicked at them as they approached. Aerion, having raced blithely around the carnage to the end of the lists, wheeled his horse and came galloping back. He was shouting too, though Dunk could not make out the words over the almost human screams of the dying horse. Vaulting from the saddle, Aerion drew his sword and advanced on his fallen foe. His own squires and one of Ser Humfrey's had to pull him back."

- Maegor the Cruel.

"He received his first sword at the age of three, and took to swordplay at once. He supposedly immediately butchered a cat with the sword".

"when Maegor was eight, he stabbed to death a palfrey which had kicked him, and slashed half the face off the stableboy who came running towards the animal's screams."

"Grand Maester Gawen protested Maegor's coronation, stating that by all the laws of inheritance, the crown should pass to Aegon. Maegor beheaded Gawen with Blackfyre".

"Maegor declared his intent to marry again, taking Tyanna of the Tower as his third wife. Grand Maester Myres objected, stating that Maegor's "one true wife" awaited him at the Hightower, for which Maegor beheaded him with Blackfyre."

"It is said Maegor was seated on the Iron Throne with the head of Grand Maester Desmond in his hand when Queen Tyanna approached him, claiming that the child had been fathered by a secret affair of Alys, who had been desperate to give the king a son and so had slept with men of confirmed fertility. Tyanna provided a list of names as proof. Under torture, all but two of the twenty men confessed to their crime. Maegor had Alys dragged from her bed and given to Tyanna for torture. All Harroways at King's Landing, including Maegor's Hand, Lord Lucas Harroway, were killed, with Alys's death the worst one of all.^[1][4] Maegor then departed the capital and marched on Harrenhal, killing its entire garrison, along with every person with even a single drop of Harroway blood. Next, he marched to Lord Harroway's Town on the Trident and did the same there.^[1]"

"In 45 AC, Maegor saw the Red Keep completed.^[4] In celebration Maegor threw a feast for those who had taken part in the construction, engorging the workers with wines and sweetmeats as well as whores from the cities finest brothels. But after three days of revelry, Maegor had them all put to death in order to protect the secrets of the castle."

"In late 45 AC, Maegor took the field again. In the great wood south of the Blackwater, Maegor hunted down the Poor Fellows who had taken refuge, and ordered the rebel Poxy Jeyne to be burned alive. Although Poor Fellows and peasants attempted to prevent the execution, Maegor had all the would-be rescuers slaughtered. ^[1] The following year, Maegor returned to King's Landing with two thousand skulls of Poor Fellows and Warrior’s Sons. However, it was widely believed that many of the victims had been innocent smallfolk who had been in the wrong place at the wrong time."

- Larra Rogare.

"She would have no part in the worship of the Seven, nor the old gods of the northmen. Her worship was reserved for certain of the manifold gods of Lys: the six-breasted cat goddess Pantera, Yndros of the Twilight who was male by day and female by night, the pale child Bakkalon of the Sword, faceless Saagael, the giver of pain."

"The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love, and whispers went about that her ladyship oft availed herself of this ability at twilight orgies, so she might visit the brothels on the Street of Silk as a man. And every time a child went missing, the ignorant would look at one another and talk of Saagael’s insatiable thirst for blood."

- Saera Targaryen.

"A frequent victim of Saera's pranks was Tom Turnip, the court fool. Once, after a particularly cruel prank which resulted in Tom being injured, Saera's septa declared her to be "an evil child". Before she had even turned thirteen, Saera had already had half a dozen septas and as many bedmaids.^[1]"

"When she was fourteen years old, Saera told her father that she wanted to become a queen like her mother, by wedding the Prince of Dorne or the King-Beyond-the-Wall. When she saw a trader from the Summer Islands, she declared that she might wanted to marry him as well. By the time she was fifteen, however, she had come to entertain other fantasies. At home, she could have as many young men, squires, knights and lords, as she liked. She quickly had three favorites of all the men who attended her: Jonah Mooton, the heir to Maidenpool, Roy Connington, the Lord of Griffin's Roost, and Ser Braxton Beesbury, the heir to Honeyholt. Meanwhile, two girls her own age, Perianne Moore and Alys Turnberry, became Saera's closest friends. For more than a year, the three girls and young lordlings did everything together.^[1]"

"In 84 AC, on a warm spring night, two men of the City Watch of King's Landing rescued the court fool Tom Turnip from the brothel called the Blue Pearl, where Saera's three young lordlings, Mooton, Connington, and Beesbury, were amongst the drunken patrons laughing at the fool. After Connington proclaimed that they had believed it would be fun to see Tom with the whores, Mooton admitted the joke had been Saera's idea. The men of the City Watch brought the three men before Ser Robert Redwyne, who brought them to King Jaehaerys, seated on the Iron Throne. When none of the three men dared to say a word about Saera, they were thrown in the black cells. Subsequently, Queen Alysanne called Saera's two friends, Lady Perianne Moore and Lady Alys Turnberry, to her to be questioned. Threatened with imprisonment, the two girls quickly revealed that the three girls had practiced at kissing, dressed at first, naked later on. When the girls dared each other to kiss a real boy, Saera had proclaimed she would kiss a man, which is where her three male favorites came in. According to Lady Perianne "it was [Beesbury] who did the training for all of them." When asked where the servants had been during all they had done, the two girls informed the queen that they had simply been ordered to stay outside, and that the few who had known something, had been forced to keep quiet by Beesbury.^[1]

Jaehaerys was subsequently informed, and had squires, grooms and maids questioned on the matter. Only then, Jaehaerys called Saera to him in the throne room. Jaehaerys scolded her for the joke regarding Tom and the Blue Pearl, after which Alysanne informed her they were aware that Alys Turnberry was pregnant. When informed of the imprisonment of her three favorite lordlings, Saera began to speak and within the span of an hour "went from denial to dismissal to quibbling to contrition to accusation to justification to defiance", according to Septon Barth. When Saera finally fell silent, Jaehaerys asked her whether she had given her maidenhood to any of the three men, and Saera proclaimed that they all three believed they had been the first, calling them "silly fools". Saera declared she would be married, but that she could not decide which one of the three would be the best choice. When she suggested marrying all three of them, she compared herself to Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel."

"Saera had found passage on a ship at Oldtown, which had brought her to Lys. There, she took service at a pleasure garden, clad as a novice."

"When King Jaehaerys called a Great Council in 101 AC to settle the matter of his succession, three bastard sons of Saera - each from a different father - came to press their claims. Saera herself decided not to press her own claim, boasting she had "her own kingdom" "

 

"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." - Barristan Selmy, ADWD, Dany VI.

In Wenda's case the proverbial coin landed on a bad side.

While Wenda/Meris was living in 7K, she was entertaining herself, while hanging out with the Kingswood Brotherhood. She was branding their captives, because she was a sadist, and had a cruelty streak in her dragonseed-DNA, it was fun for her to to cause pain and humiliation to other people. She was like Saera Targaryen, like Aerion Brightflame, like Aerys the Mad King, and Maegor the Cruel. And when she went to Essos, and there was victimized, after what happened to her, she became a torturer, in a professional capacity.

Just because Duncan the Tall was an honorable person and a true knight, doesn't mean that his descendants are saints, that all of them are good people, like Brienne. Just look at the Mountain (Wenda's/Meris' cousin).

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If [Brienne] is Duncan the Tall's descendant (same as Gregor Clegane, the Mountain) ...

Waitaminute! I think it's strongly hinted that Brienne is a descendent of Ser Duncan the Tall, as is Hodor, but where do you get the Gregor Clegane tie-in? Are you assuming that any tall person is clearly a Duncan by-blow (he never married, so all his offspring would be bastards, apparently abandoned by Good Old Dad.)

Look - is the entire Umber family, seven plus footers all, descended from Duncan? No way - they've been around since the First Men. How about Olenna Tyrell's "Right and Left"?  For that matter, what about Sandor Clegane, the runt of the family?

And, back to Brienne, even if we presume her long-dead mother was one of Duncan's one-offs, why in the world would you think the Lady of Tarth was a vicious, bloodthirsty sellsword? Or a "warrior" lady at all?

My apologies for going off topic. Your initial assumptions just struck me as ... er, questionable.

[broken one]

Everyone descend from Aegon IV, it is known.

[Lord Lannister]

Well Illyrio's motives are far from pure and I think it's entirely likely that he has some distant connection to House Targaryen. Be it through his own Blackfyre blood, Varys or something else. 

He set up the (f)Aegon thing years in advance. I don't think Illyrio was planning to simultaneously supporting the two Targaryen pretenders as he did, but that's just the way it worked out.

As if common name of (f)Aegon implies, regardless of if he is what he claims to be, his background is questionable. He was still the primary plan regardless of that until Viserys and Dany fell into his influence. Two people who's heredity no one questions and therefore with a more believable claim. I even believe the so called "usurper's assassins" that hounded them over the years might have been Illyrio's agents trying to herd them into his hands. 

When Viserys died and Dany escaped Illyrio's influence on the edge of the world, it was only then Illyrio went back to the original plan with (f)Aegon.  

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Are you assuming that any tall person is clearly a Duncan by-blow (he never married, so all his offspring would be bastards, apparently abandoned by Good Old Dad.)

Read this

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157195-where-are-dark-sister-and-blackfyre/&do=findComment&comment=8540165

and this

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157195-where-are-dark-sister-and-blackfyre/&do=findComment&comment=8540722

In those posts I wrote my theory on Duncan's descendants.

In my opinion, he has four great-grandchildren (Hodor, Meris, Sandor, Gregor), and one great great-grandchild (Brienne). Old Nan/Alysanne Stark/ the girl from Bran's vision/Dunk's paramour gave birth to twins, a girl and a boy. That boy is Hodor's grandfather, the one that participated in Robert's Rebellion. The girl is one of those daughters that left Winterfell. Meris, Sandor and Gregor are her grandchildren. One of Meris' parents was a sibling of one of Clegane-parents.

Dunk + Old Nan

Hodor III, Daughter (Clegane III/Brienne IV); [Nan's other children, not Dunk's]

Hodor II (participated in Greyjoy Rebellion), Clegane II, Brienne III

Hodor I, Sandor and Gregor, Brienne II (Brienne's mother, Meris)

Brienne I

 

There are other tall characters in ASOIAF, though I'm not saying that all of them are Dunk's descendants.

It is obvious (at least to me) that Hodor and Brienne didn't descended from the same child of Old Nan and Dunk. ->

It is known that Nan had at least four children. One of her sons (fathered by Duncan) remained at Winterfell, married, had a son, died in Robert's Rebellion, while his son died in Greyjoy's Rebellion, and his grandson is Hodor. Nan's other son (fathered not by Duncan) also died in Robert's Rebellion, and seems that he was childless, because Nan didn't mentioned his children. And there was at least two daughters. They moved out of Winterfell, married, had children, aged, died, their descendants are not Northerners, and they are not in contact with Old Nan. Cleganes and Meris (Brienne's mother) are those descendants.

Hodor is Dunk's descendant. Hodor's father, and grandfather, and great-uncle remained in The North. Though it is known that Brienne is also Dunk's descendant. So, isn't it pretty clear that she descended from one of Nan's daughters?

Hodor's grandfather and Brienne's great-grandmother were twins. "Targaryens" of that generation had an inclination to birth twins - Daemon Blackfyre's first children were twin-boys, Aegon and Aemon, born in 184; his father's sister-wife, Naerys, twice gave birth to twins, in 161 and 172.

Dunk's father had twins, his grandfather (Aegon IV) had twins twice, isn't it likely that Dunk also had twins?

Thus, Duncan wasn't a Good Old Dad that abandoned scores of his by-blows all over Westeros. It happened only once. And he didn't knew that his girlfried was pregnant. He left Winterfell before she realised that she's pregnant, and afterwards things happened, and they never got reunited. Her family made her to marry with some random guy, and life went on. He never knew that he had children. Otherwise he wouldn't have joined Kingsguard, not an honorable guy like him. Though, honorable guys also have sex. And when Dunk met Alysanne, she was his first, and so was he - her first. Two naive children fell in love, tumbled in the hay, and more children happened. Though that doesn't make him a bastard... Wait a minute... ... He is a bastard. And he's a bastard's bastard. Guess it runs in the family

5 hours ago, zandru said:

For that matter, what about Sandor Clegane, the runt of the family?

He also. Because -> Clegane.

Gregor is a bad coin, like Maegor, Aerion, Maelys the Monstrous. While Sandor is one of the good coins, though he got a bit "corroded" from extensive and prolonged contact with the bad coin. Corroded by fire Targaryen-style.

Those mad coins don't like horses.

"He defeats Ser Balon Swann, but is finally unhorsed by Ser Loras Tyrell, who rides a mare in heat to the joust, which unnerves Gregor's stallion. Gregor falls into a rage and kills his stallion with one blow of his sword."

"when Maegor was eight, he stabbed to death a palfrey which had kicked him"

"Aerion lowered his lance and impales Humfrey's horse, injuring Humfrey's leg and leaving his horse to die in agony, which Aegon considered to be intentional."

"Maelys killed Daemon's destrier, and then twisted Daemon's head until he tore it from his shoulders. "

Clues are there, all over ASOIAF. Not only Hodor and Brienne are Duncan's descendants, but Sandor and Gregor too.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

the Lady of Tarth

Brienne is Dunk's descendant, while Selvin Tarth isn't. He just isn't. Because - just think about it. Really think about it. Isn't it obvious? Where's Hodor and where's Selvin Tarth. Dunk's descendants were in no position to become Lords, even of such small holdings as the Tarth island, or to marry with one of Tarths, at least not two-three generations ago, not so close to their bastard-ancestor. Though, with passage of time, and changes of generations, when their shady ancestry became buried in time, they got better prospects, and eventually those of them that are females, were able to marry with someone of a bit higher social standing.

For example, could be that Meris/Wenda was a daughter of House Cafferen. In this case Old Nan's granddaughter (her daughter's daughter, aunt of Sandor and Gregor) married with Lord Cafferen from Fawnton in Stormlands. That's if Wenda the White Fawn was a member of House Cafferen, and not just simply "borrowed" their sigil (a fawn). Could be that she wasn't a Cafferen, also could be that her name, Wenda, also wasn't real and got "borrowed". Wendwater river flows not far from Tarth in Stormlands, and not far from Kingswood, where operated Kingswood Brotherhood, led by Wenda. Or maybe she was Meris Cafferen, and fawn was her House sigil, though while with KB, she was using an alias Wenda. Because who uses their real name, while doing something like that.

Could be that Brienne's mother wasn't the Lady of Tarth (more info on Brienne's mother, my speculations on how and why she left Selvin, and how is there a possibility that she wasn't Selvin's wife, nor a Lady) ->

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157215-the-tattered-prince’s-motives/&do=findComment&comment=8540031

Though I'm inclined to think that Brienne's mother indeed was named Meris Cafferen, and used Wenda the White Fawn as her alias.

Because -> Cafferen.

Names and surnames with ae and e..y are Valyrian/dragonseed. Like Aerys and Maelys, that have both ae and e...y. Viserys, Daemon, Rhaegar, Gael, Daenerys, Petyr Baelysh, Alayne, Clegane, Cafferen, Deyne, Ambrose (the guy with dragon egg in The Mystery Knight, one of Aegon's secret bastards).

And because Wendwater has significance in relation to Blackfyres. The decisive battle of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion happened on the Wendwater bridge.

GRRM likes to drop small hints like that here and there.

Like Brienne visiting Duskendale, and painting there her shield with Duncan the Tall's sigil (Dunk's name is derived from word Duskendale. Not his real name at all); Brienne visiting Maidenpool (the town takes its name from the pool where the legendary Florian the Fool met Lady Jonquil. In The Hedge Knight Dunk watched a performance about them. And also Florian and Jonquil are parallels to Barristan Selmy/grandson of Aenys Blackfyre and Lady Jeyne Swann/the Perfumed Seneschal/fAegon's mother. When Blackfyre troops fought that battle on Wendwater bridge, their people went to Stonehelm to retrieve Aenys' family, that got stuck in 7K after Aenys' execution. While they were staying there, one of Aenys' daughters had a fling with Lyonel Selmy, who squired for Lord Swann, and gave birth to Barristan. Same as his father before him, Barristan squired for Lord Swann. While he was still Swann's squire, in Blackhaven on tournament he met Duncan the Tall and Duncan the Small, and got christened as Barristan the Bold. Got his nickname from a person who was named after a secret Blackfyre. Duncan the Tall (actually a Blackfyre) - Duncan the Small - Barristan Selmy. In 281 Barristan fought against Kingswood Brotherhood, and saved from them Jeyne Swann (Blackfyres are descended from Swanns, thru Larra Rogare's mother, Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys). When Barristan defeated KB, their leader was Simon Toyne, and Wenda wasn't there. That's because she made a deal with Varys, and in exchange for giving her leadership over KB to Blackfyres, was given a place at Golden Company. After her arrival to Essos, she was raped and mutilated by people from GC, because their captain-general, Myles Toyne, was Simon's brother, and Simon got killed by Barristan, because Wenda's people got scared and escaped, when they were faced against Kingsguards, even though Wenda promised to Simon support and loyalty of her people.

Also the Smiling Knight (probably some sort of relative of Blackfyres, with a bit less of dragonseed blood than Barristan, Varys and Varys' sister Serra) was used as a comparition to Gregor Clegane. ASOS, Jaime VIII - "The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear." AFFC, Jaime IV - " "The Smiling Knight?" She sounded lost. "Who was that?" The Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad."

5 hours ago, zandru said:

even if we presume her long-dead mother was one of Duncan's one-offs

And you know who else was presumed to be long-dead? -> Jon Connington. He drank himself to death in Lys.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

why in the world would you think the Lady of Tarth was a vicious, bloodthirsty

Because it runs in the family?

Maegor, Maelys, Aegon II, Aegon IV, Aerion, Saera.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Or a "warrior" lady at all?

Brienne is a warrior, so why her mother can't be?