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The Tattered Prince’s motives


TheLastWolf

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My last topic about Lord Cheese’s intentions reminded me of another Pentoshi, Rags a.k.a Tatters a.k.a The Tattered Prince. The Captain of the Windblown sellsword company could have been The Prince of Pentos but chose to become a sellsword instead. (Not that it’s a surprising choice as I’d choose the same as he if my city would behead me for any plague, famine or war that might affect it).

But why does Rags want Pentos so badly? He made a deal with Quentyn, our deceased, foolish, Dornish frog prince, Pentos in exchange for helping steal the remaining dragon/s. That plan went awry though. But which sane man would want a city when he could have the whole world by taking the dragons for himself? Or maybe he was sane enough to understand that they couldn’t be controlled. Ser Barristan the Bold proposes a deal, Pentos in exchange for the hostages by sending Arch and Drink, who take Hugh Hungerford, Dick Straw and the rest to treat with Rags, though I think it would fail as the Yunkai’i are throwing bodies with trebuchets after all…so much for peace.

What extreme hatred or love does Tatters have towards Pentos? Could Illyrio be a part of this sub-plot? Could there be enmity or rivalry between Rags and Lord Cheese?

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Sorry for the late correction, @Megarova mentioned somewhere that Pretty Meris of Windblown was Wenda the White Fawn of the Kingswood Brotherhood and Brienne's mother. Someone please explain if it has any connection with Tatters and my above topic.

 

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5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Sorry for the late correction, @Megarova mentioned somewhere that Pretty Meris of Windblown was Wenda the White Fawn of the Kingswood Brotherhood and Brienne's mother. Someone please explain if it has any connection with Tatters and my above topic.

 

First of all, you wrote my nickname incorrectly. Second - no one can explain to you if there's any connection between Tatters, Meris and KB, because it's my own theory/speculation. Third - I'm a bit busy now, though I'll make a post later. Shortly - I think that Tattered Prince is the Wandering Wolf Rodrik Stark (or Rodrik's son, which is less likely). There's a ton of clues about it. For example, his animosity against Bloodbeard, the leader of the Company of the Cat, who is obviously a wildling and a relative of Gerrick Kingsblood (Gerrick of House Redbeard, King of the Wildlings, descendant of Raymun Redbeard or his brother Red Raven, a King-Beyond-the-Wall. His three red-headed daughters were introduced to Shireen as wildling princesses). Bloodbeard is a wildling (I assume so), and Tatters is a Stark, supporter of the Night's Watch, thus they are blood enemies.

Even the title of his company, Windblown, is a hint to his nickname the Wandering Wolf, it's a reference to Biblical wayward son, The Parable of the Prodigal Son.

Windblown - tumbleweed - prodigal son - wandering wolf.

To be continued...

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19 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

how could Brienne's mother be so cruel as to become someone like Pretty meris and brienne had a brother too(galladon). what explanation is there for the confusing ages. and duncan the tall relation...how? why would she join Windblown?

This is all (everything in the post) speculations, not facts. 

(English isn't my native language (it's my 4th), so there was/is a lot of mistakes, and I had to edit this post more than a few times, sorry)

First of all, it isn't known whether Selvin Tarth's four children were born by the same woman, or by several different women. It isn't known how or when Brienne's mother died, or whether she really died. It isn't known whether Galladon, Arianne, Alysanne, and Brienne are full-siblings or half-siblings, or whether any of them were bastards born out of marriage. Thus, there'a lot of options how could have happened that Brienne is sure that her mother is dead, while her mother is actually in Essos.

For example, one of possibilities - Brienne's parents weren't married, her birth is a result of one time sex, or her mother was occasionally having sex with Selvin, who had a wife. Brienne's mother got pregnant, in secret gave birth, and then the baby was given to Selvin's wife, who pretended that Brienne is her child. Some time later the wife died, while giving birth to Arianne and Alysanne, or one of them. Thus Galladon, Arianne and Alysanne were born by Selvin's wife, while Brienne's mother is Wenda/Meris.

It seems illogical, though it's not totally impossible, and there could be an explanation how or why did something like that happened. -> When Naerys, Aegon IV's wife, nearly died after giving birth to twins, King Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos, to keep him away from Naerys, to prevent Aegon from having sex with his wife, because another pregnancy could have killed her. After Elia gave birth to Aegon, maesters said that another pregnancy will kill her. So what Rhaegar was supposed to do? If him and Elia continued to have sex, she could have became pregnant, and then she would have died in childbirth, or died in a result of abortion. Similar problem could have been with Selvin's wife. As an option he could have went to whores, or took a mistress/mistresses, or had occasional sex with random women, like Robert Baratheon. Though when Wenda became pregnant, she and Selvin made a deal, that he and his wife will pretend that the baby is theirs and legitimate, and Wenda will go away to Essos.

Another possibility is that Selvin had several wives. For example, his first wife died while giving birth to Galladon. His second wife died while giving birth to Arianne and/or Alysanne. Or those girls were born by wife 2 and wife 3, both wives died. Wife number 4 (or 3) was Wenda from House Cafferen. She wanted to have a different life, to be a knight/warrior, like her ancestor, Duncan the Tall. The fact that Selvin's previous wives died in childbirth, gave her an idea. So she made a deal with Selvin - she gives birth to his child, and then she can go wherever she wants, and went to Essos to join a sellswords company, because Essos is less prejudiced towards female-warriors. Either she and Selvin faked her death (like Ashara Dayne did), or she just left (like Mellario of Norvos, or like Lynesse Mormont, or Rohanne Webber-Lannister, or Larra Rogare). Either she left with Selvin's consent, or without it. She just left, and afterwards he told everyone that from now on she is dead for him and for all of his household.

Another possibility is that Selvin had one wife, and it was Wenda, and all of his children were born by her. She didn't wanted to be a wife and a mother, she wanted to live freely. So on the side she was having fun by spending time with outlaws, the Kingswood Brotherhood. Eventually she got fed up with playing family, and after Brienne's birth just left.

And there are many other options.

For example, Selvin never had a wife, all of his children were born by various mistresses, including Brienne. She remembers that her father each year had a different mistress. So, who said that it became like this only after Brienne's birth, maybe it always was like that. And Brienne herself is also a child of a mistress. Three of Selvin's children died, and he asked King Robert to legitimize his last surviving child, and it was done. And Brienne doesn't know, while people from Selvin's household don't care.

Or maybe she is a bastard, but she's still a Tarth, even though she wasn't legitimized. Maybe those islanders from Tarth have customs different from the rest of 7K. Maybe all bastards born on Tarth-island are Tarths. Ironborn have customs different from other people (rock wives, salt wives). People of Skagos, also islanders, also have different customs (cannibalism, for example. irrelevant for this topic, though whatever).

Maybe only Brienne is legitimate, while her siblings were bastards, born by various mistresses.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

There's information in ASOIAF-wikia that in 2016 GRRM confirmed that Brienne is Dunk's descendant. In AFFC Brienne visits the Dun Fort in Duskendale and has her shield repainted to the arms of Ser Duncan the Tall. She remembered that sigil from a shield that she found in her father's armory.

Selvin isn't tall, not like Brienne, it was never mentioned anywhere that she looks like her father. So isn't it likely that it's her mother who is a descendant of Duncan the Tall?

What Brienne and Meris have in common:

- both of them are tall;

- light-colored eyes (Brienne - blue, Meris - grey);

- blond hair;

- both are warrior-women;

- they have ridiculing nicknames, that people use behind their backs, and it's about their looks - Pretty Meris, Brienne the Beauty, even though they aren't;

- Brienne was born in 280. In 300 in ADWD it was said about Meris that she has been with the free companies for 20 years. And that originally she's from Westeros.

So, she gave birth to Brienne and went to Essos to join sellsword company.

Now, where's connection between Meris and Wenda from Kingswood Brotherhood. It was speculated that Wenda was a member of House Cafferen from Stormlands. Because there's two white fawns on their sigil, and Wenda branded KB's prisoners with her trademark, a fawn. It isn't known what happened to Wenda when KB were defeated by Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne. Though in 281, when that happened, the leader of KB was Simon Toyne. If Simon was the leader of KB, then why were their prisoners marked with Wenda's brand? Maybe, because prior 281 KB's leader was Wenda, while Simon Toyne, Smiling Knight, and Big Belly Ben/Strong Belwas joined later? Wenda wanted to be a warrior, but in 7K she could be only an outlaw. And Varys needed an access to Barristan Selmy, at certain specific time, in certain place.

Because Varys, who is a Blackfyre, can't have children, and thus there was no point for Golden Company to follow him, because he would have been the dead end for a Blackfyre line. Though after Serra, who was Varys' sister and a Blackfyre, died, Varys promised to GC that he will find them another Blackfyre. Thus he went to Westeros, and found there Barristan Selmy, who is a grandson of Aenys Blackfyre (or something like that). And the point of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was to retrieve Aenys' family, that got stuck in 7K after Aenys' execution. Though in those three years between the Great Council of 233 and 236, one of Aenys' daughters hookep up with Lyonel Selmy, who was squiring at Stonehelm for Lord Swann. Prior going to King's Landing, Aenys left his family with Swanns, because they are bloodrelated to Blackfyres. Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was Larra Rogare's mother, and great-grandmother of Daemon I Blackfyre. Johanna's father was Byron Swann, who got roasted by a dragon during the Dance of the Dragons, and they were mentioned in ADWD, Tyrion III in a conversation between Tyrion and Haldon (who is from Golden Company). Duncan the Tall is a Blackfyre, his parents were Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen. Duncan the Small was named after Duncan the Tall. He gave a nickname to Barristan Selmy, who is a Blackfyre. Passage of names from Blackfyre to Blackfyre thru a Targaryen, even though both of them had none-Blackfyre lastnames (Tall and Selmy). So, there was a carrier of Blackfyre genes in 7K, though he was a Kingsguard, and he was an upright person, unlike Jaime Lannister. And he was utterly loyal to Targaryens, even though he knew that his mother was a Blackfyre. Thus he wouldn't have agreed to become the leader of Golden Company, nor to do what Varys couldn't do - to impregnate a woman, for his child to continue Blackfyre-line. But then appeared Shiera Seastar. For the role of fAegon's mother was chosen Jeyne Swann, while Shiera was escorting her under guise of a septa. Barristan was supposed to save them from KB, or KB were supposed to seize him for Jeyne's use.

And at about that time members of Kingsguard were assigned with a mission to hunt down Kingswood Brotherhood (maybe Varys persuaded Aerys to do so). So Varys (or his people from Golden Company) approached Wenda, the leader of KB, and she was offered a place in Golden Company in exchange of her giving her place in KB to Varys' people. That's how Wenda went to Essos, and Simon Toyne became a new leader of KB. Simon, most likely, is a brother of Myles Toyne, captain-general of Golden Company (he's already dead, he was Jon Conningston's friend, prior Varys and Illyrio gave fAegon into Jon's care). Wenda seems to be an alias, because there's a Wendwater river not far from Tarth, and the decisive battle of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion happened at Wendwater Bridge.

Probably, when Wenda was leaving KB, according to her agreement with Varys, her people were supposed to obey to Simon, and to assist him in his mission. Though it all went wrong, and instead of easily overwhelming 45-years old Barri, they were attacked by a real dragonboss, who was also accompanied by Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning. So KB's regular members got scared and escaped, leaving their new boss to fight those two devils. That's how Simon got killed, and his brother, Myles, blamed Wenda for what happened. So GC's people raped and mutilated her, and left her to die. Though she survived and was saved by Tattered Prince, and became a member of Windblown. After what happened to her, she became merciless, and became a torturer.

 

I think that Tattered Prince is Rodrik Stark. Based on this:

- both of them used to be members of Second Sons;

- many of his people are Westerosi;

- Windblown's banner is white and blue, which could be snow and blue winter roses of The North;

- grey is traditional color of Starks. Tatters is wearing silver-grey mail. His hair is grey. His warhorse is grey.

- "The great grey sailcloth pavilion that the Tattered Prince liked to call his canvas castle". There's no castles in Essos, there are mansions etc., castles is a thing of Westeros;

- Windblown are enemies with the Cat company, and their leader seems to be a wildling. If Tatters is a Stark, then their animosity is a given;

- Tatters was born in 238 or 239.

Rodrik Stark's year of birth in Wikia is based on possible year of death of his father, Beron Stark, which is supposedly 212-226. But there's some sort of mistake in years of death of Beron and his father, Brandon. It's Brandon, not Beron, who died after confrontation with Ironborn, and it happened in 212. Thus, actually there is no information about cause or year of death of Beron Stark, and thus his seven children (the youngest of them was Rodrik) could have been born even after 226, because he didn't died in 226. There's some major mistake and confusion with dates of birth and death in family tree of Starks, starting from after Cregan Stark. So Rodrik can be Tatters, even though his timeline in Wikia doesn't correspond with Tatters'.

P.S. Just because they were going to make Tatters next prince of Pentos, doesn't mean that he was local. He could have chosen Pentos as his primary settlement place, and he could have done it either after getting married back in Westeros, or he could have returned to The North, and married after his escape from Pentos. He was going between The North and Disputed Lands, until he established his own sellswords company. That's when he could have permanently left his family. And he wants to get Pentos for whatever reason, whether he is Rodrik Stark or not.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Just because they were going to make Tatters next prince of Pentos, doesn't mean that he was local. He could have chosen Pentos as his primary settlement place,

But we know that the Pentoshi never chose a non-noble and certainly not a foreigner

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On 6/26/2020 at 12:02 PM, TheLastWolf said:

But we know that the Pentoshi never chose a non-noble and certainly not a foreigner

Why not? Read below, under the quote ->

"In elder days, the city was ruled by a prince of high and noble birth, chosen from amongst the adult males of the so-called forty families. Once chosen, the Prince of Pentos ruled for life; when one prince died, another would be chosen, almost always from a different family.

Over the centuries, however, the power of the prince steadily eroded, whilst that of the city magisters who chose him grew. Today it is the council of magisters that rules Pentos, for all practical purposes; the prince’s power is largely nominal, his duties almost entirely ceremonial. In the main, he presides over feasts and balls, carried from place to place in a rich palanquin with a handsome guard. Each new year, the prince must deflower two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields. This ancient ritual—perhaps arising from the mysterious origins of pre-Valyrian Pentos—is meant to ensure the continued prosperity of Pentos on land and at sea. Yet, if there is famine or if a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the gods might be appeased. And then a new prince is chosen who might bring more fortune to the city.

Given the risks attendant to the office, not all the nobles of Pentos are eager to be chosen to wear the city’s crown. Indeed, some have been known to refuse this ancient but perilous honor. The most recent and famous of these is the notorious sellsword captain called the Tattered Prince. As a youth, he was elected by the magisters of Pentos after a long drought and the execution of the previous prince in the year 262 AC. Rather than accept the honor, he fled the city, never to return. He sold his sword, taking part in battles in the Disputed Lands, then founded one of the newer free companies of the East, the Windblown."

 

<- That doesn't mean that they are still chosing potential princes only out of nobles. Could be that it was that way only in elder days. Nowadays nobles are not eager to be chosen. And because the prince's power is nominal and his duties are ceremonial, magisters sometimes (or nowadays always) are chosing average/common/smallfalk people to be made their newest prince. Specifically because in some cases that newly-appointed prince was going to be executed immediately after his election. Just think about it - there was a long drought, they executed their acting prince, but that didn't changed anything and the drought continued, so they had chosen a new prince (Tatters), and because they were going to sacrifice him shortly after (that's the reason why they needed a new prince - to sacrifice him), because of this reason they had chosen a candidate from none-nobility, furthermore a foreighner. And, probably, it wasn't a single occurance. Because why to kill Pentosi nobles and waste their fellow countrymen, if they can use outsiders as a sacrifices/scapegoats?

Furthermore, could be that Tatters was chosen not only because he was a foreighner, but also because he was an obstacle for someone. His enemy wanted to get rid of him, either by sacrifising/"princing" him, or by chasing him out of Pentos.

"Illyrio grew very respectable and married the maiden daughter of a cousin of the Prince of Pentos[5] - only with the help of Varys did he reach a position where the daughter of a magister was willing to marry him.[6] "

So could be that that enemy was Illyrio, and Varys helped him to get rid of Tatters, who was courting magister's cousin once removed (is that how it's called? cousin's daughter?). Tatters was Illyrio's rival. Maybe neither of them loved that girl, maybe all they aimed for is to heighten their social standing thru the marriage with her. Or Tatters really loved her, while Illyrio only wanted to use her. Maybe she died because Illyrio killed her. After he married with her, he or Varys orchestrated her death. Because he already got what she wanted out of that marriage. Same as what Littlefinger did, how he got rid of Lysa, when he didn't needed her anymore.

[The timing doesn't work for Illyrio and Tatters to be love rivals. In 262, when Tattens was 23, Illyrio either was a little baby, or wasn't even born yet. So, whatever is Tatters' motives towards Pentos, it's doubtful if they are somehow connected to Illyrio, at least not personally.]

If Tatters is Rodrik, then he could have courted that Pentosi girl already after his wife, Arya Flint, died after giving birth to Branda and Lyarra (Ned's mother). Or he could have married with Arya after his escape from Pentos (after 262 AC, when he was 23+).

Benjen is Lyarra's youngest child, he was born no earlier than in 267. Her oldest, Brandon, was born in 262. Could be that she died while giving birth to Benjen, or to his younger sibling, who died in childbirth. Based on various information, known about Starks, it seems that Benjen and Lyanna (born in 266 or 267) were growing up without a mother, probably because she died early. If Lyarra's first child was born in 262, then at that time she was at least 16 years old (though in calculations in the Wikia they used year 250 and age at least 12 not 16), and thus was born no later than in 246 (in Wikia is written a different possibility, with wider range). Though she could have been born earlier than that. She could have been significally older than her husband, Rickard. Because Rickard was Willam's grandson, while Lyarra was Willam's niece, fathered by Willam's youngest brother, Rodrik. Or, if there was big age difference between Willam and Rodrik, then could be that a grandchild of the oldest was approximately same age as a child of the youngest, and thus Rickard and Lyarra could have been born at about same time period. Or not. According to Wikia Rickard was born in 230-250, and Lyarra was born in 203-250. Though those dates are not definite.

If Tatters was born in 238 or 239, then in 246 he was 7 or 8 years old, and thus can't be Lyarra's father, Rodrik, the Wandering Wolf. Though, according to Wikia, for some reason Lyarra has a huge range of possible years of birth, 47. Thus she could have been born in a different year, not 246. It's written in Wikia that Lyarra could have been 12, when she gave birth to Brandon in 262, thus possibly she was born in 250, and at that time Tatters was 12. So he can be Rodrik, if Rodrik became a father, when he was aged 12, and if his daughter also became a parent, when she was aged 12. Or, maybe, there are mistakes in the Wikia, concerning characters' ages/dates of birth, or could be that GRRM or his Co-authors made mistakes while figuring out their ages, and thus there's inconsistency between the World Book and the main series.

According to the World Book, which GRRM wrote with two other authors, Tatters was elected as a prince in 262, "As a youth, he was elected by the magisters of Pentos after a long drought and the execution of the previous prince in the year 262 AC.". According to ADWD, at that time he was 23 years old - "When the Tattered Prince was three-and-twenty, as Dick Straw told the story, the magisters of Pentos had chosen him to be their new prince", and "An old man he was, past sixty" <- that's in 300. Though maybe his people from Windblown are wrong about his age, and either he wasn't 23 in 262, or he is older than 60 in 300, or it's the World Book which is incorrect, and Tatters was 23 at the time of his election, though it wasn't in 262 but earlier. Thus he could have been born not in 238 or 239. For example, what if he was elected in 252, not in 262, and he was 23 in 252, which places his birth in 228 or 229, and in 300 he is 70-72 years old, which is still how was said about him "An old man he was, past sixty". With Lyarra Stark's range of birth as 203-250, she could have been his/Tatters' daughter.  

Eitherway, whether Tatters is Rodrik or not, it's possible that he had previous encounter with Varys and Illyrio, and they are the reason why he had to escape from Pentos, thus now he has a grudge against them. And that's his motive, why he wants to get Pentos.

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Rodrik's father Beron died in the 210er years, there is no way Rodrik is the Tattered Prince.

 

Beron supposedly died in 212 or 213 (GRRM didn't wrote this yet), so his youngest child, Rodrik, was born no later than in 213, and thus in 300 is supposed to be 87 years old, and thus can't be Tatters. Though there's inconsistency in family tree of Starks, starting from Cregan. There are mistakes, probably. We can't know for sure until GRRM will write either Fire&Blood V2 or The She-Wolves of Winterfell, and will give more defined timing.

Also if Rodrik is too old to be Tatters, he isn't too old to be his father. Tatters could be Rodrik's son, born in Essos, by a woman from Pentos. If Rodrik is at least 87, and Tatters was born in 238 or 239, then at that time Rodrik was 25-26 years old, and based on that age can be Tatters' father.

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@TheLastWolf

The idea with Tatters is that he does indeed have a personal connection to/relationship with Illyrio and Varys which would be the reason why he thought Daenerys Targaryen might help him in his quest to take Pentos in exchange for crucial information about these people and the roles they played in her life so far.

Whether Tatters actually 'wants Pentos' or whether he merely wants to avenge himself on Varys/Illyrio or people they were connected with back in the day is unclear. The guy is pretty old already, so we cannot expect him to intend to rule Pentos for long even if he were to get it - meaning a sort of revenge thing there is more likely than just a restoration to his rightful place.

Especially in light of the fact that they elected him Prince of Pentos and he refused that honor. He could have been the figurehead ruler of the place but didn't want to. Clearly he doesn't want to keep the present system in place if he were to take over Pentos.

But we have to keep in mind that Tatters never directly spoke to Daenerys nor her people. He sent Meris to do that, but she didn't get to Dany - and one imagines that he planned to only tell her directly (or through Meris) about the things he wanted her to know. He might even be wary of Barristan Selmy if he knew the man reached Daenerys only by ways of Illyrio Mopatis.

He demands Pentos as a price from Quentyn ... at a time when Daenerys Targaryen is either dead or missing, possibly never returning. Whatever suggestions and information he intended to give to her don't seem to be things he wanted to share with Quentyn who previously betrayed him. It is not unlikely that whatever plans he had with Quentyn after Daznak's Pit have little or even nothing to do with the plans he intended to make with Daenerys.

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4 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

And what would those mistakes be? As far as I can see everything works.

If Beron Stark is the Lord Stark, that was wounded and dying after his confrontation with Ironborn (he was gathering people for it in 212, mentioned by Dunk, who was going to go to Winterfell with Egg), and here

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1409/

it is said that he's in his 30s, then he was born in 172-182, and died in 212 or 213.

Though in Wikia the range for the year of his birth is 172-196(why?), and for his death it's 212-226(how???).

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Beron_Stark

That's kind of OFF. No?

Isn't he supposed to be long dead by 226?

Possible years of birth and death of Starks after Beron are calculated based on his range. Donnor's range is based on Beron's range, Willam's range is based on Donnor's range, Artos' range is based on Willam's range, and so on.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Beron_Stark

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Donnor_Stark

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued3)#Willam_Stark

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Artos_Stark

Thus, isn't they all are incorrect, if calculation for Beron is off?

His actual ranges are 172-182 and 112-113, not what was used in all those calculations (172-196 and 212-226).

Beron had 7 children. If he was born in 196, then in 212, when he died, he was merely 16 years old, and a father of seven? Absurd.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though in Wikia

Everyone with an account can edit the wiki, does not mean it is right, though. There are no mistakes in the Stark tree of the Worldbook, but there might be some in the wiki calculations. So if you do not agree with them, take it to the calculation thread. In Beron's case it seems the editor could not figure out the last possible year of death for him (213? 214? 215? Or even 216?) and thus used the first year where it is stated that there was another Lord Stark. So the range for Beron is off indeed (and so are the ones of his children which depend on him). 

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There are a couple of things about the Tattered Prince in the text that could point to him being of Valyrian blood. 

His hair color for starters. Silver-Grey is used to describe his hair color and one more character in the story, and that's Aerys, as Dany sees him in the HotU. The color of his hair comes up twice, and in the light of the candle it seems almost gold. I think it might be safe to say that the Tattered Prince's hair color in his youth might have been silver-gold.

And he tells Quentyn this;

"Tattered and twisty, what a rogue I am. Three to two is not much of an advantage, it must be admitted, but it counts for something. In this world, a man must learn to seize whatever gifts the gods chose to send him. That was a lesson I learned at some cost." (The Spurned Suitor, ADwD 60)

This seems to point to him running away from Pentos. If that's the case, then it sounds like leaving Pentos may have been his choice. It's possible he could have been manipulated into it.

And there's something else that he says, but this time with regard to Westeros;

"No? Oh, I recall. Your bride flew off on a dragon. Well, when she returns, do be sure to invite us to your nuptials. The men of the company would love to drink to your happiness, and I do love a Westerosi wedding. The bedding part especially . . ." (The Spurned Suitor, ADwD 60)

Obviously, he could have just heard of Westerosi weddings and the bedding tradition. I don't think it's impossible that he might have attended Westerosi weddings and a notable one before he took off would have been that of Dany's parents. The Targaryens did have ties with Pentos at some point.  

As far as Varys and Illyrio. I'm super iffy on them having had anything to do with him leaving. Originally, I was fairly convinced of it. Now, though, not so much. 

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23 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So the range for Beron is off indeed (and so are the ones of his children which depend on him). 

Exactly. And the Wandering Wolf is one of those children. And GRRM haven't actually wrote yet whatever is going to happen to Beron later. For now, it isn't set yet when exactly did Beron died. Or how.

If he didn't died in span of that confrontation with Ironborn, then he could have been still alive in 238 or 239, when was born Tattered Prince. If Beron was 30 in 212, then he was 56-57 in 238-239, or if he was 39 in 212, then he was 65-66. Jon Arryn was 72, when Robert was born. Walder Frey's youngest child, Shirei, was born in 292-293, when Walder was 84-85.

If Beron didn't died in 212, then the option that Tattered Prince is possibly Rodrik Stark, can't be crossed out yet.

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If he didn't died in span of that confrontation with Ironborn, then he could have been still alive in 238 or 239, when was born Tattered Prince.

The story of the She-Wolves is a succession crisis, so I am pretty sure Beron died back then. At least he was dead in 226 AC, when his second son Lord Willam was head of House Stark.

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33 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There are a couple of things about the Tattered Prince in the text that could point to him being of Valyrian blood.

Of course he would have a Valyrian background. He even speaks classical High Valyrian, but as a scion of one of the forty families eligible to be elected Prince of Pentos means he would have considerable Valyrian blood, even if we take into account that the Pentoshi are a mixed race.

33 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

As far as Varys and Illyrio. I'm super iffy on them having had anything to do with him leaving. Originally, I was fairly convinced of it. Now, though, not so much. 

If the date for Tatters exile from Pentos is correct, then it is difficult to imagine that Varys/Illyrio had anything to do with that. Then they would have as old or nearly as old as Tatters himself - and that's clearly not the case.

However, the guy could be either Varys' or Illyrio's dad. Especially Illyrio would be a good candidate - Tatters' flight could have been a major scandal, causing his family to become outcasts, explaining why Illyrio is a poor bravo when he teams up with Varys. It doesn't seem to happen often that an elected Prince of Pentos decides to run away - and there must be an explanation for that.

In turn, this could also explain why Tatters never could come back - because Illyrio never wanted his dad back in the city, even after he restored his fortunes because of what grief he caused him his mother and other hypothetical kin.

This would, of course, also mean that Tatters most definitely would know from whom Illyrio Mopatis is descended on his mother's side (as well as on his own, of course).

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course he would have a Valyrian background. He even speaks classical High Valyrian, but as a scion of one of the forty families eligible to be elected Prince of Pentos means he would have considerable Valyrian blood, even if we take into account that the Pentoshi are a mixed race.

 

Sure they are mixed, but I was thinking along the lines of a more "recent" mixing. Like one from some 60 years ago.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, the guy could be either Varys' or Illyrio's dad. Especially Illyrio would be a good candidate - Tatters' flight could have been a major scandal, causing his family to become outcasts, explaining why Illyrio is a poor bravo when he teams up with Varys. It doesn't seem to happen often that an elected Prince of Pentos decides to run away - and there must be an explanation for that.

I don't think he's either their father. Illyrio probably worked his way up to magister by blackmailing the right people. It's hard to imagine that the magisters and princes of Pentos have changed all that much since Rego Draz. I'm sure they didn't give him a position of magister for his pretty pig eyes. But I like how we know so much more about everything Volantis and next to nothing about Pentos and these Princes. We don't know their names, we don't know who these forty families are.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This would, of course, also mean that Tatters most definitely would know from whom Illyrio Mopatis is descended on his mother's side (as well as on his own, of course).

Still riding that black dragon, I see. I doubt either him and Varys have a single thing to do with the Blackfyres. I think for that, it's Dany's entourage we have to look at.

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14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The story of the She-Wolves is a succession crisis, so I am pretty sure Beron died back then. At least he was dead in 226 AC, when his second son Lord Willam was head of House Stark.

Jorah Mormont was the head of his House since prior Robert's Rebellion, before 282, while his father died many years later, in 299. How about that? ^_^

So, just because Willam in 226 was the Lord Stark, it doesn't mean that Beron was dead.

If he got crippled, then he could have abdicated his seat as the Head of the House, and they had a succession crisis, with the previous Lord still alive.

If Beron simply died, then what sort of succession crisis could they have? His son, Donnor, would have became the next Lord. No crisis. Though, if he abdicated his seat, then some other Starks, such as his younger brother Arsa, or his aunt-by-marriage Serena Stark (married with Edric Stark, Beron's uncle, with whom they had four children, two of them sons - Cregard and Torrhen Starks), could have said that Beron's abdication means that his children can't inherite Winterfell, and the next Lord should be, in Arsa's opinion - Arsa, and in Serena's opinion - Cregard, because if Beron isn't the Lord, then neither are his children or his younger brother, and thus, the succession rights should go one generation back, to Beron's uncle Edrik and Edrik's heir - Cregard. Or something like that.

Now, how is it relevant for the story, if Tatters is a Stark (either Rodrik, or his son, born in Pentos)? When Dany and her troops, including Windblown, will arrive to Westeros, and there will be rumors that the Night's Watch and Winterfell are under attack of the Others, then Tatters will convince Dany to give her aid to Northerners. If he's a Stark, then he cares about The North.

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On 6/26/2020 at 11:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

The idea with Tatters is that he does indeed have a personal connection to/relationship with Illyrio and Varys which would be the reason why he thought Daenerys Targaryen might help him in his quest to take Pentos in exchange for crucial information about these people and the roles they played in her life so far.

Lord Varys has previously discussed that theory in this thread.

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Whether Tatters actually 'wants Pentos' or whether he merely wants to avenge himself on Varys/Illyrio or people they were connected with back in the day is unclear.

What does he want to "avenge himself" on them for? If Illyrio was penniless as a young man because of Tatters' actions, wouldn't the desire for revenge go in the opposite direction?

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Clearly he doesn't want to keep the present system in place if he were to take over Pentos.

If he had sons of his own we might think he wanted to convert it to a hereditary monarchy, but we don't know of any children.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If the date for Tatters exile from Pentos is correct, then it is difficult to imagine that Varys/Illyrio had anything to do with that.

Precisely. And after that he's been an exile, so there's less reason to think they would have done something he wanted avenged.

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However, the guy could be either Varys' or Illyrio's dad. Especially Illyrio would be a good candidate - Tatters' flight could have been a major scandal, causing his family to become outcasts, explaining why Illyrio is a poor bravo when he teams up with Varys.

It would definitely be embarassing for his family, but would that cause a really old established family to become poor? And why would he want revenge against his own son?

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In turn, this could also explain why Tatters never could come back - because Illyrio never wanted his dad back in the city

Does Illyrio really get to decide who is permitted in Pentos? I would think the entire Pentoshi establishment wouldn't be keen on the guy who betrayed his sacred duty showing up like there were no consequences to his actions.

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