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Goro

Dead-honest question (and sorry if this has been asked before as this is my first topic in seven years): is Stannis in some way autistic or on the spectrum in any way? Any other characters like this?

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1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do and Renly took at least three left turns: When he turns away from Ned, when he leaves KL and when he leaves Highgarden. It's all science just gotta study it out

I mean, Renly made no good decision; he was clearly evil.

Welp, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

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Just now, Goro said:

I mean, Renly made no good decision; he was clearly evil.

Welp, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

And I showed mathematical proof that Renly took three lefts, aka a right. Then asserted Stannis had no scruples by breaking down whoring into the quadratic equation. It's all basic math, gotta show your work 

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3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And I showed mathematical proof that Renly took three lefts, aka a right. Then asserted Stannis had no scruples by breaking down whoring into the quadratic equation. It's all basic math, gotta show your work 

Well, I don't understand, but I guess I'll leave it at that. Good day.

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40 minutes ago, Goro said:

I mean, Renly made no good decision; he was clearly evil.

Renly was kind to Brienne and (even though her chapters are the least interesting to me) that makes him a sweetheart in my book. What he did there is proof of empathy and I don't think we have even one such from Stannis.

The "mild"-punishment-Davos-situation doesn't cut it - Stannis does it himself with a butchers cleaver (iirc) and that doesn't say anything nice about his empathetic capabilities.

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On 6/25/2020 at 1:47 PM, Sigella said:

I think Stannis fits well with having Asberger (he is totally unflexible, socially inadeqate, and way too fixated on succession, chain of command etc)

I don't really think so. Most of Stannis issues derives from his family and mostly because of Robert.

He wants what Robert had and he wants to be better at it.

He has shown to be pretty flexible, he has proved that succesion lines doesn't matter to him if it doesn't advance his agenda ("Lady Lannister... She'll never get Winterfell). Even when Stannis declares himself a non believer, he jumps right on in the AA craziness.

Stannis may suffer from a disorder but there are too many buts to properly put him in this one imo.

 

@Goro

 

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I think his antipathy towards Robert is kinda exaggerated. And I never really saw Stannis has having "middle child syndrome." I'm not even sure that exists, at least in the medical sense, though I don't think that necessarily matters in fantasy.

Disagree about the Proudwing episode summing up Stannis' character.

I doubt that Stannis suffers from that, as that theory, it's not really proved, is tied to the children relationship with their parents and Renly was not even a year old when their parents died.

But Stannis is indeed deeply  affected by his brothers and especially by Robert. He strives and strives to get his approval and rewards,  paraphrasing Jaime, Stannis was desperate for a pat in the back for that sot that was his brother.

About his issues, he dislikes not being as acknowledged as his brothers are and tends to lash out when he is reminded how "cool" they used to be.

 

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What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death?” “They grieve. Your brother was well loved.” “Fools love a fool,” grumbled Stannis,

 

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 “I did. Now I offer you my men, my ships, my wits.” “Your ships are mine, or burnt. Your men … how many are left? Ten? Twelve?” Nine. Six, if you count only those strong enough to fight . “Dagmer Cleftjaw holds Torrhen’s Square. A fierce fighter, and a leal servant of House Greyjoy. I can deliver that castle to you, and its garrison as well.” Perhaps , she might have added, but it would not serve her cause to show doubt before this king. “Torrhen’s Square is not worth the mud beneath my heels. It is Winterfell that matters.” “Strike off these irons and let me help you take it, Sire. Your Grace’s royal brother was renowned for turning fallen foes into friends. Make me your man.” “The gods did not make you a man. How can I?” Stannis turned back to the nightfire and whatever he saw dancing there amongst the orange flames. Ser Justin Massey grasped Asha by the arm and pulled her inside the royal tent. “That was ill judged, my lady,” he told her. “Never speak to him of Robert.” I should have known better . Asha knew how it went with little brothers. She remembered Theon as a boy, a shy child who lived in awe, and fear, of Rodrik and Maron. They never grow out of it , she decided. A little brother may live to be a hundred, but he will always be a little brother . She rattled her iron jewelry and imagined how pleasant it would be to step up behind Stannis and throttle him with the chain that bound her wrists.

 

Robert's lack of affection, added to him becoming a larger than life figure, well sort of since he did go downhill, and the fact that he overshadowed Stannis at everything had a very deep effect on Stannis and Stannis himself makes it clear.

Renly is the opposite of Robert, he is younger and have everything Stannis would like for himself, the looks, the charisma, the love of the people, Storm's End... And for Stannis, Renly is simply over gifted while not having done anything to deserve all that.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Renly was kind to Brienne and (even though her chapters are the least interesting to me) that makes him a sweetheart in my book. What he did there is proof of empathy and I don't think we have even one such from Stannis.

The "mild"-punishment-Davos-situation doesn't cut it - Stannis does it himself with a butchers cleaver (iirc) and that doesn't say anything nice about his empathetic capabilities.

I mean, Renly was a pedophile that played a lot of people around him. He had no claim to the throne and would've established a precedent if he had become king and soon after everyone would've been declaring themselves king eventually without any legal standing. GRRM has clearly called Stannis a "righteous" man.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Goro said:

I mean, Renly was a pedophile that played a lot of people around him. He had no claim to the throne and would've established a precedent if he had become king and soon after everyone would've been declaring themselves king eventually without any legal standing. GRRM has clearly called Stannis a "righteous" man.

Not to mention that GRRM considers Robert a “good man”, despite the fact that he raped his wife, which makes him little better than Ramsay Bolton. Did Robert not do them (since Cersei’s a bit of an unreliable narrator)? Does he consider him good despite what Robert did? Does he not consider what Robert did that bad *shudder*? Or is Robert simply a good, well-meaning man who did something that he wouldn’t do if he wasn’t stressed and depressed?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Goro said:

I mean, Renly was a pedophile that played a lot of people around him. He had no claim to the throne and would've established a precedent if he had become king and soon after everyone would've been declaring themselves king eventually without any legal standing. GRRM has clearly called Stannis a "righteous" man.

Na, at a stretch Renly could be a hebophile, knight of flowers is 15-16?

But it could be that Renlys exes are all brawny bears, we dont know.

If we hold this as a standard most every married man would technically be pedos, since they marry way earlier in westeros.

Like Robb and Jeyne Westerling, Walder Frey x 8, Tyrion with Sansa etc. It doesnt hold.

Edited by Sigella
Excellent sense of numbers

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4 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Na, at a stretch Renly could be a hebophile, knight of flowers is 15-16?

But it could be that Renlys exes are all brawny bears, we dont know.

If we hold this as a standard most every married man would technically be pedos, since they marry way earlier in westeros.

Like Robb and Jeyne Westerling, Walder Frey x 18, Tyrion with Sansa etc. It doesnt hold.

Technically Walder Frey is x8, not x18 (depending on the amount of bastards).

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't really think so. Most of Stannis issues derives from his family and mostly because of Robert.

He wants what Robert had and he wants to be better at it.

He has shown to be pretty flexible, he has proved that succesion lines doesn't matter to him if it doesn't advance his agenda ("Lady Lannister... She'll never get Winterfell). Even when Stannis declares himself a non believer, he jumps right on in the AA craziness.

Stannis may suffer from a disorder but there are too many buts to properly put him in this one imo

I think Cressens account of child-Stannis argues for my point.

Of course he isnt a real person, so all we really can do is discuss what we think.

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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Technically Walder Frey is x8, not x18 (depending on the amount of bastards).

Fixed it  :ph34r:

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21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Not to mention that GRRM considers Robert a “good man”, despite the fact that he raped his wife, which makes him little better than Ramsay Bolton. Did Robert not do them (since Cersei’s a bit of an unreliable narrator)? Does he consider him good despite what Robert did? Does he not consider what Robert did that bad *shudder*? Or is Robert simply a good, well-meaning man who did something that he wouldn’t do if he wasn’t stressed and depressed?

Stannis is clearly supposed to be moral though, just going off on the dialogue between Stannis and Davos.

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I don't know if Stannis' character traits in any way resemble those of actual autism or Asbergers syndrome. Its more of a an analogy or a folk idea of autism. It's how I have described him to people who haven't read the books "a bit autistic". Meaning his inability to see there can be exceptions to rules, nothing so terrible as a truly just man, the way he was odd and difficult as a child and had no rapport with brothers. The way he insists Jaime have his correct title in a letter defaming him. His thinking that Tommen is quite sweet but no, he is born on sin and must die.

Then again, he shows himself surprisingly flexible when working with Jon in the north. I mean flexible for Stannis. I don't know if he is changing or showing hidden resources. Or he just respects the independence of the NW and its Commander.

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18 hours ago, Goro said:

I mean, Renly was a pedophile that played a lot of people around him.

If he's a pedophile so are most of the main male characters in the books: Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, Jon Arryn, Brandon S, Aegon IV, and possibly others like Tywin, Roose, et al. A few years (3-4) in a relationship in Westeros, even when one is in their teens is hardly unusual. Joff was gonna marry Sansa and impregnate her at first chance, and he's older than her.

18 hours ago, Goro said:

He had no claim to the throne and would've established a precedent if he had become king and soon after everyone would've been declaring themselves king eventually without any legal standing. GRRM has clearly called Stannis a "righteous" man.

He was a younger brother to a king who used a distant relation and force to claim kingship. Of course he had a claim, albeit not as strong as some, and the precedent was already set. GRRM describes him as being a righteous man in context of what happens after the BW, when he gets to the wall and realizes that the WW are a threat to the realm. 

"I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it."
 
Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. "You're bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight."
 
That's a great character development but it has little and less to do with his actions beforehand and in his interactions with Renly.

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46 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 Joff was gonna marry Sansa and impregnate her at first chance, and he's older than her.

 

They were both born in 286

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9 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Head canon sometimes gets in the way. Could have sworn she was 11 when it started and he was 12

You are probably right, that was their ages at the start. But both were also born in the same year so the difference is in months rather than a full year.

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Head canon sometimes gets in the way. Could have sworn she was 11 when it started and he was 12

Correctly sworn.

Ned 1 agot:

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"Sansa is only eleven."

Jon 1 agot:

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Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay. 

 

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