GRRM's world and its resemblances to our real one. From Religion to Politics and Geography to Wildlife

[QhorinQuarterhand]

Has anyone ever explored Stannis's similarities to Hannibal Barca? 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/25/2020 at 10:23 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Why do you have India and Japan together twice? I don't think Asshai is supposed to mirror any real world place. I've read that Qarth took some inspiration from Constantinople or Carthage. An additional one I would add I guess would be the easy one of the Dothraki being inspired by various Steppe cultures. The part where Khal Drogo drops the golden "crown" on Viserys is ripped straight from a real event where Ghengis Khan poured silver on Inalchuq (a governor of the Khwarazmian Empire. Note : I actually think the description of the Dothraki culture and people's was GRRM's biggest failure, as ...for example, the Mongols wore armor. They were always outnumbered...as living a nomadic lifestyle is not one that leads to high infant survivability nor sustainable population growth, and simply won battles because they were...better at battling than anybody else. Even before Ghengis Khan though, the Mongols were wearing armor and had excellent battlefield tactics. I think GRRM's descriptions were unfortunately based on racist European historians descriptions of Steppe culture and peoples. 

Read George's own words on his what he based the Dothraki on. They are also a mix of other Asian tribes and American Indian tribes as well. As well as whatever else he wanted to add. In his own words he never does a 1 to 1 copy job.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Read George's own words on his what he based the Dothraki on. They are also a mix of other Asian tribes and American Indian tribes as well. As well as whatever else he wanted to add. In his own words he never does a 1 to 1 copy job.

Read them. GRRM is my favorite author. Still think he failed and made a racist European historian version stereotype of a society rather than a realistic steppe culture. It isn't entirely his fault, even when I was in University most of he information on south, mid, and east Asia came from white european or american historians from like 100 years ago, lol. More translations of historians from the actual regions would greatly improve our image of oter cultures which is currently locked in racist stereotypes. As you said yourself, nothing you said refutes any of my points. Steppe people were outnumbered when they attacked people who lived in cities. Cities lead to higher populations than nomadic life styles. Agriculture allows for higher populations. Steppe people didn't ignore basic armor and go shirtless. They also weren't all mindlessly going along with everything. The Dothraki of the book are like all one stereotype with (currently, could change in a future book) no one being outside the box. Where is Ghengis's brother Temuge, who was literate and loved reading? Where is Ghengis's grandson Kublai, who was essentially just Chinese. When people are exposed to other cultures (which the Dothraki are), they change. Where is some who like the comforts of cities and want to stay there? The unrealistic part is that GRRM has created a people strong enough to take over cities, yet they never have, merely destroying them. Never once has one Khal been like, I want to just stay in Pentos. Not once, ever? Again, I love GRRM, but he failed when it came to the Dothraki. And, we still have The Winds of Winter and im hoping that he perhaps improves on that. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Read them. GRRM is my favorite author. Still think he failed and made a racist European historian version stereotype of a society rather than a realistic steppe culture. It isn't entirely his fault, even when I was in University most of he information on south, mid, and east Asia came from white european or american historians from like 100 years ago, lol. More translations of historians from the actual regions would greatly improve our image of oter cultures which is currently locked in racist stereotypes. As you said yourself, nothing you said refutes any of my points. Steppe people were outnumbered when they attacked people who lived in cities. Cities lead to higher populations than nomadic life styles. Agriculture allows for higher populations. Steppe people didn't ignore basic armor and go shirtless. They also weren't all mindlessly going along with everything. The Dothraki of the book are like all one stereotype with (currently, could change in a future book) no one being outside the box. Where is Ghengis's brother Temuge, who was literate and loved reading? Where is Ghengis's grandson Kublai, who was essentially just Chinese. When people are exposed to other cultures (which the Dothraki are), they change. Where is some who like the comforts of cities and want to stay there? The unrealistic part is that GRRM has created a people strong enough to take over cities, yet they never have, merely destroying them. Never once has one Khal been like, I want to just stay in Pentos. Not once, ever? Again, I love GRRM, but he failed when it came to the Dothraki. And, we still have The Winds of Winter and im hoping that he perhaps improves on that. 

It's not just European historians.  It's Europeans quoting Iranian, Arab, and Chinese chroniclers who recorded the Mongol invasions as a thing of horror.  They recorded tales of gutters running with melted human fat;  pyramids of thousands of heads;  cities reduced to ash, with their populations exterminated.   There were no records kept by Hsi Hsia, because Hsi Hsia ceased to exist. No doubt these tales grew in the telling, but there are also grim contemporary records.  The most notable is the population of Northern China falling from 30m in 1211, to 9m in 1241, according to their censuses.

The Mongols were certainly far more than mindless barbarians.   Theirs was a sophisticated society, and religiously tolerant.  Genghis Khan was a political and military genius, who had a real talent for picking brilliant generals, like Subedei and Mukhali.  But, they were utterly ruthless.

One quote I love from Sir Steven Runciman "He had a genuine love of learning, and was always ready to spare a scholar's life.  Unfortunately, few of his victims got close enough to him to demonstrate their scholarship."

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

22 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Read George's own words on his what he based the Dothraki on. They are also a mix of other Asian tribes and American Indian tribes as well. As well as whatever else he wanted to add. In his own words he never does a 1 to 1 copy job.

Yeah, I think most of these countries and cities are composites from multiple sources of inspiration. Plus some innovations by GRRM. 

Some examples I can think of:

Ironborn: Obviously a big part comes from the Vikings. But their religion appears more inspired by the Cthulhu mythos from the author HP Lovecraft. The technology they use, their general aesthetics, etc, is also quite different from Viking era Norse. Euron Greyjoy in particular gives me more "evil Caribbean pirate" vibes than anything else. 

Valyrians: The republicanism, technological sophistication, mass slavery, and geopolitical role seems inspired by the Romans. As is their volcano riddled homeland, though to a much larger extent than Italy is. The Free Cities rising from the remnants of the empire also has similarities with the origins of the Italian city states. The Doom seems clearly inspired by the fall of Atlantis from Greek mythology. On the other hand, the Valyrian people and their society share very strong similarities with the nation of Melniboné from Michael Moorcock's fantasy novels.  And when I say very strong similarities, I mean it. Just google it and you will see. 

Braavos: Clearly a lot of it comes from Venice. Although the Colossus as posted upthread seems inspired by the one at Rhodes. Now, as for Braavos' history of being founded by escaped slaves from all corners of the world, and thus now being both strongly opposed to slavery and tolerant of different religions... I am not sure if that has any clear historical parallel. It does not seem very similar to Venice at least. As for the Faceless Men, some inspiration may come from historical assassin groups such as the Hashashin of the Middle East and the Ninjas of Japan. Neither of these worshipped a god of death though. 

[HoodedCrow]

Braavos, their tolerance seems more like Spain before Ferdinand, Isabella and the inquisition. Your analogies seem spot on.

[TheLastWolf]

I also forgot the main thing.... links to European mythology. 

King Arthur - Prince who was promised

Excalibur - Lightbringer

Merlin - Bloodraven 

Nimue - Quaithe/Shiera Seastar

Round Table - Painted table 

Sir Balin and Sir Balan- Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk Cargyll 

Sir Gawain - Eddard Stark/Ser Arthur Dayne

Sir Percival - Florian the Fool

Holy Grail-???

Any more??? 

P. S. I owe this thought to @Megorova

[Loose Bolt]

Bloodraven has also similarities with Odin like having only 1 eye.

[TheLastWolf]

Isn't King's Landing similar to London with Flea Bottom as East London and its Cockney accent (Tyrion thinks that a Flea Bottom accent cannot be missed while talking to Kem in ADWD)

[Aldarion]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Isn't King's Landing similar to London with Flea Bottom as East London and its Cockney accent (Tyrion thinks that a Flea Bottom accent cannot be missed while talking to Kem in ADWD)

I believe I already noted before that map of London and King's Landing are nearly identical:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/bb/Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif/1200px-Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/86/29/a18629e4d4b6fc4d40a4461b156ca3ea.jpg

Basically:

Blackwater Rush = River Thames

The Red Keep = The Tower

Aegon's High Hill = The Tower Hill

Great Sept of Baelor = St's Paul Cathedral (both are on the opposite side of The Hill)

Also ancient London:

https://cdn.britannica.com/95/22195-050-5B49A36B/settlement-Roman-Londinium-metropolis.jpg

Dragonpit = Amphitheatre

 

Both cities also have a total of seven city gates.

[TheLastWolf]

21 hours ago, Aldarion said:

I believe I already noted before that map of London and King's Landing are nearly identical:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/bb/Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif/1200px-Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/86/29/a18629e4d4b6fc4d40a4461b156ca3ea.jpg

Basically:

Blackwater Rush = River Thames

The Red Keep = The Tower

Aegon's High Hill = The Tower Hill

Great Sept of Baelor = St's Paul Cathedral (both are on the opposite side of The Hill)

Also ancient London:

https://cdn.britannica.com/95/22195-050-5B49A36B/settlement-Roman-Londinium-metropolis.jpg

Dragonpit = Amphitheatre

 

Both cities also have a total of seven city gates.

Sorry. Hadn't seen it before 

[Aldarion]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Sorry. Hadn't seen it before 

It was in a different thread, so no surprise there.

[SeanF]

On 7/2/2020 at 10:57 AM, Aldarion said:

I believe I already noted before that map of London and King's Landing are nearly identical:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/b/bb/Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif/1200px-Kings_landing_ACOK_map.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/86/29/a18629e4d4b6fc4d40a4461b156ca3ea.jpg

Basically:

Blackwater Rush = River Thames

The Red Keep = The Tower

Aegon's High Hill = The Tower Hill

Great Sept of Baelor = St's Paul Cathedral (both are on the opposite side of The Hill)

Also ancient London:

https://cdn.britannica.com/95/22195-050-5B49A36B/settlement-Roman-Londinium-metropolis.jpg

Dragonpit = Amphitheatre

 

Both cities also have a total of seven city gates.

There are similarities, but Kings Landing has a far bigger population than medieval London (c.300,000 to 40-60,000).  There's no equivalent to London Bridge, or Southwark, either.

[Springwatch]

Braavos - the navy is described as the wooden wall of the city, true also of Athens (in a prophecy, no less). So Braavos is like Athens, like Rhodes, like Venice.

It's plain to see multiple inspirations coming inward, but ideas don't flow the other way - Braavos can't tell us anything about Athens/Rhodes/Venice, because, which, when, how? The books don't hold a mirror up to our cultures (no Booker Prize for grrm, not ever; they're not that kind of book).

It's true that GRRM writes in a realistic, immersive kind of way a lot of the time, but he's also pretty constant about thuggishly knocking the reader out of immersion - so, Tyrion fights like a hero, maesters are experts on everything, dynasties last a thousand years, the North is habitable, the castles exist, the Yunkai army...

So the reader has to deal with the real and the unreal stuff simultaneously. I've got to say, this forum has produced a ton of solid knowledge from the 'real' approach - the world-building is solid enough for that - but the 'unreal' side can't be ignored either; it's just not been played through yet. We are roughly speaking in the presence of sorcery always - and Planetos is distorted to extremes by it.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I wonder about the other Free Cities. Braavos and Volantis have been discussed already. But what about places like Lys, Pentos, Myr, etc? I don't see many strong similarities with cities from history or fiction there. 

I mean okay, Myr has its glasswork and so did Florence (if I recall correctly), but that feels quite thin. 

[Lilaerys Blackfyre]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:07 PM, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

I wonder about the other Free Cities. Braavos and Volantis have been discussed already. But what about places like Lys, Pentos, Myr, etc? I don't see many strong similarities with cities from history or fiction there. 

I mean okay, Myr has its glasswork and so did Florence (if I recall correctly), but that feels quite thin. 

Yes, given the association of Braavos with Venice, the other free cities would presumably be at least in part analagous to the other Northern Italian city states like Milan and Genoa, along with Florence. Numerous similarities: cultured, sophisticated, mercantile, constantly fighting with mercenary armies, and with power politics that might make the Westerosi Game of Thrones look like Come-Into-My-Castle - like the Di Medicis or Machiavelli - with poisoning as a favorite technique (Tears of Lys). Like Braavos, Venice managed to mostly stay aloof from their petty disputes.

Eastern Mediterranean ports like Constantinople, Antioch, and even Ragusa (medieval Dubrovnik) might more appropriately match their coastal status, so they might be considered, too. And if Braavos is compared to Athens, they might resemble Greece in the 13th Century, when it was a patchwork of Venetians, Western adventurers, leftover Byzantines, and Balkan natives vying for an edge.

On 6/30/2020 at 1:21 PM, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Braavos: Clearly a lot of it comes from Venice. Although the Colossus as posted upthread seems inspired by the one at Rhodes. Now, as for Braavos' history of being founded by escaped slaves from all corners of the world, and thus now being both strongly opposed to slavery and tolerant of different religions... I am not sure if that has any clear historical parallel. It does not seem very similar to Venice at least. As for the Faceless Men, some inspiration may come from historical assassin groups such as the Hashashin of the Middle East and the Ninjas of Japan. Neither of these worshipped a god of death though. 

Although the situations are not identical, there are parallels in that Venice was founded by refugees from the Lombards as the Byzantine/Eastern Romans lost control of Northern Italy. It was considered a "hidden village" at the start of its history. And during the Middle Ages, Venice was one of the most tolerant places in Europe, due to its hub in Eastern trade. It got into trouble with the rest of Christendom a few times for allying with the Ottoman Turks against Spain or Genoa, their primary Mediterranean rivals. It's also noteworthy that Braavos and Venice were Oligarchy-controlled Republics, with the Sealord/Doge elected by/from the wealthy families of the city. Surely there would have been powerful banking (and other financial, including insurance) interests there. Just no assassins' guilds (that I'm aware of). Of all these historical analogies, Venice::Braavos seems one of the closest to an "exact match".

Did anyone mention The Vale::Switzerland (and nearby Alpine regions - Southern Germany, West Austria/Tyrol, East France)?

• Mountains forming natural protection, and fertile valleys
• Traditionally "neutral", but with a highly-regarded military
• The Aerie inspired by Ludwig's famous (post-Medieval) castle

On the other hand, a KL population of a million requires the same sort of suspension of disbelief that flying, fire-breathing dragons do ...

[TheLastWolf]

Quote

Note : I actually think the description of the Dothraki culture and people's was GRRM's biggest failure, as ...for example, the Mongols wore armor. They were always outnumbered...

I think that some elements of GRRM's world is pure fiction and we must not call it a failure or misrepresentation of real life resemblances, This is to/for you @Lord of Raventree Hall

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

10 hours ago, Lilaerys Blackfyre said:

Yes, given the association of Braavos with Venice, the other free cities would presumably be at least in part analagous to the other Northern Italian city states like Milan and Genoa, along with Florence. Numerous similarities: cultured, sophisticated, mercantile, constantly fighting with mercenary armies, and with power politics that might make the Westerosi Game of Thrones look like Come-Into-My-Castle - like the Di Medicis or Machiavelli - with poisoning as a favorite technique (Tears of Lys). Like Braavos, Venice managed to mostly stay aloof from their petty disputes.

Eastern Mediterranean ports like Constantinople, Antioch, and even Ragusa (medieval Dubrovnik) might more appropriately match their coastal status, so they might be considered, too. And if Braavos is compared to Athens, they might resemble Greece in the 13th Century, when it was a patchwork of Venetians, Western adventurers, leftover Byzantines, and Balkan natives vying for an edge.

Although the situations are not identical, there are parallels in that Venice was founded by refugees from the Lombards as the Byzantine/Eastern Romans lost control of Northern Italy. It was considered a "hidden village" at the start of its history. And during the Middle Ages, Venice was one of the most tolerant places in Europe, due to its hub in Eastern trade. It got into trouble with the rest of Christendom a few times for allying with the Ottoman Turks against Spain or Genoa, their primary Mediterranean rivals. It's also noteworthy that Braavos and Venice were Oligarchy-controlled Republics, with the Sealord/Doge elected by/from the wealthy families of the city. Surely there would have been powerful banking (and other financial, including insurance) interests there. Just no assassins' guilds (that I'm aware of). Of all these historical analogies, Venice::Braavos seems one of the closest to an "exact match".

Did anyone mention The Vale::Switzerland (and nearby Alpine regions - Southern Germany, West Austria/Tyrol, East France)?

• Mountains forming natural protection, and fertile valleys
• Traditionally "neutral", but with a highly-regarded military
• The Aerie inspired by Ludwig's famous (post-Medieval) castle

On the other hand, a KL population of a million requires the same sort of suspension of disbelief that flying, fire-breathing dragons do ...

Good points. 

Digging into the particular characteristics of the other Free Cities, Lys seems to be characterized by its brothels and "bed slaves", paradise-esque surroundings, and its poisons and perfumes.

I don't think any historical city either ancient or medieval comes close to that at all. Don't know about other cities in fantasy literature. 

Tyroshi people dye their hair and beards in bright colors and are skilled metalworkers. Otherwise we don't seem to know that much about them. The metalworking stuff could fit with a lot of historical cities, the bright dyes... not sure. 

Pentos has that tradition of its prince filling a mainly religious role, and that they can even sacrifice him to the gods if their misfortunes become too great. Similar things is attested to in several historical pagan societies, at least in their mythologies. Like for the pre-viking age Norse. Otherwise we don't know too many details about Pentos if I recall correctly. It was a while since I read the world book. It seems much like the other Free Cities, except for Braavos, in that it is heavily involved in slavery and is mainly run by its wealthy merchants. 

That is one important difference between these cities and their Italian counterparts too: the Italian city states weren't all that involved in slavery. It was practiced there, but not to an extent where you can say that their economies revolved around it. Whereas all Free Cities except Braavos seem to be through-and-through slave societies. Even having slaves make up the large majorities of the populations in states like Volantis and Lys. This is something that historically was very uncommon. 

 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Good points. 

Digging into the particular characteristics of the other Free Cities, Lys seems to be characterized by its brothels and "bed slaves", paradise-esque surroundings, and its poisons and perfumes.

I don't think any historical city either ancient or medieval comes close to that at all. Don't know about other cities in fantasy literature. 

Tyroshi people dye their hair and beards in bright colors and are skilled metalworkers. Otherwise we don't seem to know that much about them. The metalworking stuff could fit with a lot of historical cities, the bright dyes... not sure. 

Pentos has that tradition of its prince filling a mainly religious role, and that they can even sacrifice him to the gods if their misfortunes become too great. Similar things is attested to in several historical pagan societies, at least in their mythologies. Like for the pre-viking age Norse. Otherwise we don't know too many details about Pentos if I recall correctly. It was a while since I read the world book. It seems much like the other Free Cities, except for Braavos, in that it is heavily involved in slavery and is mainly run by its wealthy merchants. 

That is one important difference between these cities and their Italian counterparts too: the Italian city states weren't all that involved in slavery. It was practiced there, but not to an extent where you can say that their economies revolved around it. Whereas all Free Cities except Braavos seem to be through-and-through slave societies. Even having slaves make up the large majorities of the populations in states like Volantis and Lys. This is something that historically was very uncommon. 

 

 

That's correct. Slaves seem to be around 75 - 85% of the population in the Free Cities.  No medieval State practised slavery on that scale.  Genoa and Venice certainly traded in slaves, but, it was not that big a part of their economy.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That's correct. Slaves seem to be around 75 - 85% of the population in the Free Cities.  No medieval State practised slavery on that scale.  Genoa and Venice certainly traded in slaves, but, it was not that big a part of their economy.

Yeah, and I don't know if any ancient state did either. Some Caribbean islands in the 1700's had such ratios of slaves to free people, but they weren't independent countries. 

I think it makes sense in-universe that the Free Cities (except Braavos) developed these kinds of societies originally. They were tied to the Valyrian empire after all, and since they through that had access to dragons they probably weren't afraid of slave revolts regardless of how many of them there were. As we can see later, three dragons and a few thousand men was enough to conquer the entire continent of Westeros. 

However, by the time of the books the Valyrian Freehold has been gone for centuries. Sure, now with Dany we are seeing serious slave revolts brewing in many of these cities. But shouldn't they have started suffering serious instabilities because of their very high numbers of slaves long before the present?