Lord of Raventree Hall Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 12:31 AM, TheLastWolf said: @Lord of Raventree Hall doesn't Missandei at least make up for it, a little bit? Missandei is from Naath if I remember right, a place that is described as a peaceful haven who's peoples are carted off into slavery by the other groups of people we are discussing. Naath, from what I've read, also doesn't really look like any other cultures in real life (probably because there was never a beautiful peaceful place protected by disease that killed everyone who went there. I like Missandei as a character, but she doesn't really relate much to the points I made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 7/16/2020 at 3:46 PM, Aldarion said: It is more complex than that actually. Mongols were actually often on-par with enemies, numerically speaking. But they appeared as "numberless hordes" because their operational advantages meant that they could move much more quickly - meaning that reports of a single Mongol army would get confused by their enemies for multiple armies. What exactly are you disagreeing with me about? It appears at least on the surface that you agree with me about GRRM's inaccuries..but your tone implies you are disagreeing....which is fairly confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: What exactly are you disagreeing with me about? It appears at least on the surface that you agree with me about GRRM's inaccuries..but your tone implies you are disagreeing....which is fairly confusing. I am merely clarifying on how and why "horde" view of Mongols emerged: it was not racism per se (though there was some of that as well), but rather genuine inability of settled society to understand strategic, operational and logistical characteristics of Mongol armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Aldarion said: I am merely clarifying on how and why "horde" view of Mongols emerged: it was not racism per se (though there was some of that as well), but rather genuine inability of settled society to understand strategic, operational and logistical characteristics of Mongol armies. That would make sense if we were talking about 14th century historians, but I wasn't. I am talking about 19th century historians (which are most likely the takes that GRRM is basing his ideas off of). They had alternate numbers by then, they chose to push that narrative, and more specifically the barbarian/uncivilized aspects of Dothraki culture...are just directly racist. Why are people so afraid of admitting racism without a narrative? It is pretty hard to keep out all/any forms of prejudice in a narrative. Racism is not just : hating people of a certain race. It is also internalized prejudices that work their way into our speech or writing. I don't like the way non-white people were portrayed in ASOIAF. That doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the series, I think the fact that I'm on a forum in which I comment at least somewhat regularly should make that obvious. Being able to critique what we love is part of loving what we love. And as a (admittedly only undergraduate, but still) Asian History Major, I specifically find there are many inaccuracies that seem pretty much out of the mouths of some of the older books we talked about IN MY HISTORY CLASSES, such as the portrayal of nomadic steppe peoples. This is really random, but unrelated, I've always stuck with this : If GRRM had made the Targaryens (and all Velaryons) dark skinned it really would have turned things onto its head (and also, as my second major was Biology, would be much more accurate considering the part of the world where they originated). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: That would make sense if we were talking about 14th century historians, but I wasn't. I am talking about 19th century historians (which are most likely the takes that GRRM is basing his ideas off of). They had alternate numbers by then, they chose to push that narrative, and more specifically the barbarian/uncivilized aspects of Dothraki culture...are just directly racist. Why are people so afraid of admitting racism without a narrative? It is pretty hard to keep out all/any forms of prejudice in a narrative. Racism is not just : hating people of a certain race. It is also internalized prejudices that work their way into our speech or writing. I don't like the way non-white people were portrayed in ASOIAF. That doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the series, I think the fact that I'm on a forum in which I comment at least somewhat regularly should make that obvious. Being able to critique what we love is part of loving what we love. And as a (admittedly only undergraduate, but still) Asian History Major, I specifically find there are many inaccuracies that seem pretty much out of the mouths of some of the older books we talked about IN MY HISTORY CLASSES, such as the portrayal of nomadic steppe peoples. This is really random, but unrelated, I've always stuck with this : If GRRM had made the Targaryens (and all Velaryons) dark skinned it really would have turned things onto its head (and also, as my second major was Biology, would be much more accurate considering the part of the world where they originated). I think the issue is that nowadays everything gets called racist, even things which are definitely not, so... but yes, prejudice is pretty much unavoidable. And in fact it is necessary, because we simply have neither time nor information to form unbiased opinions on everything (or anything, for that matter), but that doesn't mean it cannot be harmful. Back on topic, I personally see entirety of Essos as pure laziness on GRRM's part. He needed a bunch of villains for Daenerys to beat up, so he took the worst carricatures of slaving societies and so you got Slaver's Bay. He needed a threat for Robert to crap his pants over, so he took carricature of Mongols and picked things which seemed "foreign" or "exotic" to him. In fact, Essos is less of medieval Asia as it is medieval Asia as it was seen by medieval Europeans. Just take a look at image which Europeans and Arabs had about each other before crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Snarks DWARVES?????? https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Grumkins GENIE OR LEPRECHAUN????? what do you think @Curled Finger We have all sorts of predispositions to believe things of all the people in story. Tall people are related to giants, hairy people are related to the Ibbinese, purple eyes = Valyrian...the list is endless and not true by a long stretch. Genie or leprechaun? I suspect neither. I am a fan of ASOIAF, dammit, and this tale of grumpkins is obviously an overlooked reference to Others in the stealing of children and potential replacing of children. Or just another way GRRM has of sticking more Celtic mythology in to mess with us. The fey folk were said to steal human children and switch them out with their own. These children were changelings. I think your snarks and grumpkins are an amalgamation of all these mythological characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, Aldarion said: I think the issue is that nowadays everything gets called racist, even things which are definitely not, so... but yes, prejudice is pretty much unavoidable. And in fact it is necessary, because we simply have neither time nor information to form unbiased opinions on everything (or anything, for that matter), but that doesn't mean it cannot be harmful. 1. No. Things that weren't previously being talked about as being racist are being recognized as racist. Maybe a few, very few cases, of incorrectly identified racism are happening. But rarely, mostly people fight tooth and nail to prove how everything isn't "actually" racism. Like you...in this post. 2. As someone who although of course has prejudices, but grew up in suburbs of Kansas City and then Omaha (two very racist places) but ended up...not thinking a lot of very obviously prejudiced things other people thought, I can say this : Although I agree it is unavoidable, limiting prejudices is very possilbe. As I said, the Velaryons and Targaryens could have been dark skinned. The Dothraki, like the Wildlings could have been shown to be a diverse people with different thoughts and ideas, and had ....a less weirdly stereotyped society. The Ghiscari could have been more diverse in their opinions. They could again, have been showed on multiple levels. We could have seemed more Summer Islanders I guess, as their society seems fairly advanced (and not comically evil). There are many things GRRM could have done to improve these problems in the book, that in my opinion would have made the books even better. 30 minutes ago, Aldarion said: In fact, Essos is less of medieval Asia as it is medieval Asia as it was seen by medieval Europeans. This is kind of my whole point. I think this is bad, lol. I wish he hadn't have done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 The first half of my topic about 13 & 666 being unlucky in Planetos too has similarities with our superstition in the west. Quote 13 and 666 superstition in Planetos 13th LC of nights watch became the NightKing. 79 Sentinels of NIGHTFORT, 6 lords among them (semi-canon, saw somewhere) 79/6=13.16666.. 13 of Qarth (Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Gang) 14 flames of Valyria. I think only 13 were volcanoes and the 14th was the symbolic dragon. And you know what happened to Valyria.... The Doom. Aegon IVs 13 bastards. NOT incl. TRUEBORN 1.Daemon I Blackfyre 2.Alysanne 3.Lily 4.Willow 5.Rosey 6.Bellanora Otherys 7.Narha Otherys Balerion Otherys (DISPUTED PARENTAGE) NO 8.Aegor Rivers 9.Mya Rivers 10.Gwenys Rivers 11.Brynden Rivers 12.Shiera Seastar Rumored children: 13.Viserys Plumm [3]Bastards on Lord Butterwell's daughters NO, RED HERRING ONLY 13 wise masters 1.Grazdan mo Eraz, an envoy of the Wise Masters 2.{Yurkhaz zo Yunzak}, Supreme Commander of the Armies and Allies of Yunkai, trampled to death by his own people during the events at Daznak's Pit 3.{Yezzan zo Qaggaz}, dubbed the Yellow Whale and Lord Yellowbelly for his immense size and yellow clothing, fell to the pale mare 4.Malazza, dubbed the Girl General for her gender 5.Paezhar zo Myraq, dubbed the Little Pigeon for his short size 6.Chezdhar zo Rhaezn, Maezon zo Rhaezn, and Grazdhan zo Rhaezn, (consider them as one)brothers mocked as the Clanker Lords for their slave-soldiers chained to the feet of the next 7.Ghazdor zo Ahlaq, dubbed Lord Wobblecheeks 8.Morghaz zo Zherzyn, mocked as the Drunken Conqueror for his alcoholism 9.{Gorzhak zo Eraz}, dubbed Pudding Face, slain by the Windblown during the Second Siege of Meereen 10.Faezhar zo Faez, dubbed the Rabbit for his two massive front teeth and his reciding chin. 11.The Charioteer 12.The Beastmaster 13.The Perfumed Hero Roberts bastards who were killed (minor) The major three are Edric, Gendry and Mya. Speaking of Bella(one of Tansy's peaches at Stony sept)....read on. Cersei must have killed 13 of them (how else could she have verified the truth of Maggy the Frog's prophecy?) But one out of her 13 was NOT Robert's. So 12 bastards only killed. IF Bella is Robert's, she will die soon (to complete 13). If Russel merryweather(Taena's son) is Robert's, then he will die first. See this link to clarify the above statement which may be confusing. I think that we can verify the truth about Bella and Russel's parentage by considering the one who dies first as Robert's. And Jaeherys and Alysanne had 13 children, but only 9 lived to adulthood (one became a whore) 1. Aegon Targaryen 2. Daenerys Targaryen 3. Aemon Targaryen 4. Baelon Targaryen 5. Alyssa Targaryen 6. Maegelle Targaryen 7. Vaegon Targaryen 8. Daella Targaryen 9. Saera Targaryen 10. Viserra Targaryen 11. Gaemon Targaryen 12. Valerion Targaryen 13. Gael Targaryen Chapter 13 in all books is dark/negative/evil/something like that. CH 13 AGOT – Tyrion and Jon discuss all sad and melancholic things. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_13 CH13 ACOK-Jon and the Watch find Whitetree abandoned and meet Craster and Jon uncovers dark secrets about himhttps://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Chapter_13 CH13 ASOS- Arya and co. get captured by the BwB . https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Storm_of_Swords-Chapter_13 CH13 AFOC-Arys oakheart commits himself to what he feels is a very bad treason and breaks his vows….all for love. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Feast_for_Crows-Chapter_13 CH13 ADWD Bran and team reach the cave of CoTF and BR while encountering wights.https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Chapter_13 ALL NUMBERING 13 HAVE ENDED VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY BADLY In contrast to everything bad being of 13, 12 and 7 are good. 7 is holy, no need to enumerate all examples. Kingsguard, the Seven Gods, 7 books in the series, trial of 7, etc. 12 is something similar to the Olympians’ numbers and we see it many times. See @Curled Finger's idea about 12 hero-wielders of the Valyrian steel swords at the final battle against the Others….Long Night 2.0 and Battle for Dawn 2.0, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsjj251 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Westeros - North = Scotland Riverlands = Ireland Westerlands = England Reach = France Dorne = Spain Iron Islands = Vikings(or at least what we think of them as) Vale = Switzerland Stormlands = Holy Roman Empire(at one time, containing the crownlands, riverlands, parts of Dorne, Reach, Vale and Westerlands) Crownlands = Confederation of the Rhine Essos Narrow Sea Braavos = Amsterdam Tyrosh = Lisbon Volantis = Constantinople Qohor = ?????? Pentos = Venice Norvos = Budapest Lorath = Copenhagen Lys = Marseille Myr = Florence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, dsjj251 said: Stormlands = Holy Roman Empire(at one time, containing the crownlands, riverlands, parts of Dorne, Reach, Vale and Westerlands) Only Oldtown and Citadel can qualify for that 30 minutes ago, dsjj251 said: Braavos = Amsterdam Nah. Venice for sure. 31 minutes ago, dsjj251 said: Volantis = Constantinople The climate, culture, food, population tigers and elephants all point to India or some other medieval Asian power. 32 minutes ago, dsjj251 said: Pentos = Venice As I said (and so did many before) it's Braavos. What do we know about Pentos which is similar to Venice? But rest okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 23 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Missandei is from Naath if I remember right, a place that is described as a peaceful haven who's peoples are carted off into slavery by the other groups of people we are discussing. Naath, from what I've read, also doesn't really look like any other cultures in real life (probably because there was never a beautiful peaceful place protected by disease that killed everyone who went there. I like Missandei as a character, but she doesn't really relate much to the points I made here. OK fair enough for me, but we may yet see an unannounced POV from Ghiscari/Volantis or such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 6:47 PM, Aldarion said: In fact, Essos is less of medieval Asia as it is medieval Asia as it was seen by medieval Europeans. Not even that; I think it's more like Greek myths - gods and heroes and giants. Seriously there enough fantasy elements to indicate this. So I don't think the Dothraki are there as a cardboard cutout enemies, but as war made incarnate in a nation - the children of Ares. Or something. You could call it cultural appropriation to make the Dothraki resemble Mongols, but if the story requires mighty nomadic armies in a sea of grass there's no way of achieving much separation anyway. The travellers' tales analogy is very good in one respect. Travellers' tales get wilder with distance. In asoiaf, reality gets wilder with distance (the story is centred in Westeros, to be sure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, Springwatch said: Not even that; I think it's more like Greek myths - gods and heroes and giants. Seriously there enough fantasy elements to indicate this. So I don't think the Dothraki are there as a cardboard cutout enemies, but as war made incarnate in a nation - the children of Ares. Or something. You could call it cultural appropriation to make the Dothraki resemble Mongols, but if the story requires mighty nomadic armies in a sea of grass there's no way of achieving much separation anyway. The travellers' tales analogy is very good in one respect. Travellers' tales get wilder with distance. In asoiaf, reality gets wilder with distance (the story is centred in Westeros, to be sure). That part is what Martin was trying to emulate, I think. Problem is that we have a PoV smack in the middle of Essos, which means that yes, cultures could be and should be alien - but there is no excuse for them being illogical. Martin replicated distant PoV but with a PoV in close proximity instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManBearPig Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 11 hours ago, dsjj251 said: Westeros - Iron Islands = Vikings(or at least what we think of them as) Everyone always says this and vikings are undoubtedly a big inspiration, but there is definitely significant hints of the McDonalds /Lord of the Isles. Especially when you consider that grrm is a big Nigel Tranter fan, and has cited The Lord of the Isles as being one of his best works. I mean they came from viking stock anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 7 hours ago, Springwatch said: the children of Ares. Or something. SPARTANS PLUS MONGOLS??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsjj251 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Only Oldtown and Citadel can qualify for that Not sure what you are even claiming here. The Stormlands was at one time,the largest of the Seven Kingdoms, ruling from the Neck to the Red Mountains , from the Bay of Crabs to the Golden Tooth. They were then nibbled at both internally and externally. Not sure how you can say that is the Oldtown ot the Citadal, LOL Quote Nah. Venice for sure. I actually meant to put Venice/Florence here as they were the Banking Center and a Republic that used its forces to not only protect its own boundaries but to put down wars between its neighbors. Quote The climate, culture, food, population tigers and elephants all point to India or some other medieval Asian power. Volantis is the successor state to Valyria(Rome), its the Eastern Romen Empire, aka Constantinople. Quote As I said (and so did many before) it's Braavos. What do we know about Pentos which is similar to Venice? Braavos never colonized or expanded, Pentos did just like Venice. Quote But rest okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, dsjj251 said: 19 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: Only Oldtown and Citadel can qualify for that Not sure what you are even claiming here. The Stormlands was at one time,the largest of the Seven Kingdoms, ruling from the Neck to the Red Mountains , from the Bay of Crabs to the Golden Tooth. They were then nibbled at both internally and externally. Not sure how you can say that is the Oldtown ot the Citadal, LOL I meant that the Holy Roman Empire had no fixed capital. But Starry Sept, Oldtown and Citadel are similar to elements of Vatican. And what you say about the Stormlands does not make it similar to the central region of the HRE. As you said yourself about the Stormlands large ruled area... ...was at one time... Not for along time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsjj251 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 17 hours ago, TheLastWolf said: I meant that the Holy Roman Empire had no fixed capital. But Starry Sept, Oldtown and Citadel are similar to elements of Vatican. And what you say about the Stormlands does not make it similar to the central region of the HRE. As you said yourself about the Stormlands large ruled area... ...was at one time... Not for along time. 300 years is a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, dsjj251 said: 300 years is a long time Not when your history is for 8-10000 yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsjj251 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said: Not when your history is for 8-10000 yes. You have both created and then moved the goal post LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.