TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Great to know chances are not that bad that Vic is going to survive those horn blows. I always thought he might bite the dust there ... but then, I so very much enjoyed his chapters in ADwD. Would be sad if he would never get sail fly above the Dothraki Sea.

Vic is the Lord Flasheart of the series.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=hbjBswqE&id=9167BB5FE2F127293E09617D3C11C8CA27A4DF40&thid=OIP.hbjBswqEJrjjViGphNQJAAHaHh&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2fgUnCVMt.jpg&exph=774&expw=762&q=victarion+the+awesome&simid=608048398591329280&ck=C58C3B6F7090DEB2680DB45C99C538B0&selectedIndex=4&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Quote

Two presenters of the NotACast podcast said more than once that they heard from the editor of GRRM that TWOW was basically finished in 2015, but he wasn't happy with it and scrapped most of the book. That brought him into a deep depression that ruined his writing momentum, and it wasn't until the publication of Fire & Blood that he started writing something meaningful for TWOW again - only after the end of November 2018.

I'm sorry if it has been discussed here already, but this is news to me.  @Werthead have you heard anything about this?

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

George doesn't write in order though, so how far into TWOW Victarian gets to live is still up in the air (see what I did there?).

Considering the chapter we were expecting him to die would be his first - the one where they are blowing the horn - and he already read parts of that chapter at a con, chances are very low that he is still working on that chapter nine years later.

2 hours ago, The Winged Griffin said:

Personnally, I don't see him having more than 3-4 chapters. We know he has the sample chapter GRRM read, and I believe he'll have one or two more battle chapter(s) and then one last chapter in which he dies consumed by dragonfire on the deck of his Iron Victory after the dragons go crazy due to the Hellhorn being blown. Only my opinion though...

Otherwise great joke lmao

See above, would only be one chapter, not more.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm sorry if it has been discussed here already, but this is news to me.  @Werthead have you heard anything about this?

It would make sense up to a point considering I can confirm that there was a time when George's translators and editors all over the world where asked to make time to prepare for the imminent release of TWoW. I don't recall whether that was 2015, but it may have been.

Such things are usually not communicated lightly, nor did that happen at other times during the production process of an ASoIaF book that I'm aware of. One would only do that if George's editors and publishers were reasonably sure that the book would be finished soon. Which means there would have at least been enough material (sort of) finished to publish it soon.

George not being happy with the chapters he wrote and scrapping a lot of material could very explain why the book didn't come out 4-5 years ago. It could also explain why he turned to FaB and finished that book first when the original plan had been only to do that after the series had been finished.

[The Winged Griffin]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering the chapter we were expecting him to die would be his first - the one where they are blowing the horn - and he already read parts of that chapter at a con, chances are very low that he is still working on that chapter nine years later.

See above, would only be one chapter, not more.

 

Well, actually he doesn't die at the end of this chapter. Here's the end of the sample chapter :

-After he shows the horn to the three deckhands, the dusky woman bleeds his wounded hand/arm into a bowl. Then Victarion takes that blood and rubs it into the horn and murmers to it softly "My horn...dragons..."

-Then he fingerbangs the dusky woman. No sex. He says he doesn't like to bust a nut before battle (my phrasing).

-The dusky woman helps him put his armor on, he gives a rousing speech to the crew and they set sail towards Meereen.

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/67371-twow-spoilers-new-tyrion-chapter-and-the-rest-of-the-new-victarion/

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Winged Griffin said:

Well, actually he doesn't die at the end of this chapter. Here's the end of the sample chapter :

-After he shows the horn to the three deckhands, the dusky woman bleeds his wounded hand/arm into a bowl. Then Victarion takes that blood and rubs it into the horn and murmers to it softly "My horn...dragons..."

-Then he fingerbangs the dusky woman. No sex. He says he doesn't like to bust a nut before battle (my phrasing).

-The dusky woman helps him put his armor on, he gives a rousing speech to the crew and they set sail towards Meereen.

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/67371-twow-spoilers-new-tyrion-chapter-and-the-rest-of-the-new-victarion/

From what I recall it was said at the time the reading did not include the entire chapter. But I could be wrong there.

Still, if there are other chapters it would be odd if they were still rewritten nine years later, especially if they were already finished for ADwD - which certainly was the case for the Vic sample chapter and may have been possible for the chapter after that, too.

[The Winged Griffin]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From what I recall it was said at the time the reading did not include the entire chapter. But I could be wrong there.

Still, if there are other chapters it would be odd if they were still rewritten nine years later, especially if they were already finished for ADwD - which certainly was the case for the Vic sample chapter and may have been possible for the chapter after that, too.

Yes, I believe the battles of Ice and Fire were supposed to be included in ADWD , but were cut for length purposes. That can only mean that they were ready and written back in 2011. So him working on Vic now can only mean that either Victarion lives after the battle and has more chapters after, or that he is entirely rewriting the battle of Fire/ Vic's only chapters in the book (which is bad news since it further delays the Winds of Winter).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would make sense up to a point considering I can confirm that there was a time when George's translators and editors all over the world where asked to make time to prepare for the imminent release of TWoW. I don't recall whether that was 2015, but it may have been.

Such things are usually not communicated lightly, nor did that happen at other times during the production process of an ASoIaF book that I'm aware of. One would only do that if George's editors and publishers were reasonably sure that the book would be finished soon. Which means there would have at least been enough material (sort of) finished to publish it soon.

George not being happy with the chapters he wrote and scrapping a lot of material could very explain why the book didn't come out 4-5 years ago. It could also explain why he turned to FaB and finished that book first when the original plan had been only to do that after the series had been finished.

But doesn't GRRM usually just rewrite chapters he isn't happy with over and over? As far as I know, he has never scrapped tons of finished material before, for any of the books. 

[The Winged Griffin]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But doesn't GRRM usually just rewrite chapters he isn't happy with over and over? As far as I know, he has never scrapped tons of finished material before, for any of the books. 

Yes , so what happened ?

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, The Winged Griffin said:

Yes, I believe the battles of Ice and Fire were supposed to be included in ADWD , but were cut for length purposes. That can only mean that they were ready and written back in 2011. So him working on Vic now can only mean that either Victarion lives after the battle and has more chapters after, or that he is entirely rewriting the battle of Fire/ Vic's only chapters in the book (which is bad news since it further delays the Winds of Winter).

That wouldn't be a scenario I'd seriously consider since there is little chance he can change much of that stuff in light of the published setup for those battles. He should have known how to write those battle for a very long time now.

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But doesn't GRRM usually just rewrite chapters he isn't happy with over and over? As far as I know, he has never scrapped tons of finished material before, for any of the books. 

He did scrap all that Shrouded Lord material, and whatever he wrote with the five year gap in mind (not that much material, apparently) and lots of other chapters.

I could see him realizing that a later plot point - or a confluence of plot points - sucked so much the way he wrote it that he simply doesn't like to go through with that and subsequently decided he would have to start from scratch at a certain plot point in the novel.

Overall, TWoW is going to be a much more complicated and difficult novel than ADwD, including many 'Meereenese Knot-like scenarios' whenever some POVs come together and it has to be figured out how that is to be accomplished best.

[The Winged Griffin]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, TWoW is going to be a much more complicated and difficult novel than ADwD, including many 'Meereenese Knot-like scenarios' whenever some POVs come together and it has to be figured out how that is to be accomplished best.

Yes, such as the post-battle of Ice situation in the North. So many PoVs coming to winterfell. No matter how many times I think it through in my head, I can't seem to guess what will happen after the battle.

[Werthead]

5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm sorry if it has been discussed here already, but this is news to me.  @Werthead have you heard anything about this?

It's speculation, but there is some circumstantial evidence supporting it.

• The publishers telling international translators (two I'm aware of) that the book should be available for translating shortly in 2016.
• GRRM reporting on New Year's Day 2016 that at various points in 2015 it looked doable to complete the book in a few months, if not weeks.
• The publishers asking for Fire & Blood (a draft of which they'd had in hand since 2013) as a stopgap in 2017 once it became clear that TWoW would not completed imminently.

I suspect when we get to the bottom of this we may find it's a oversimplification of the situation and the book was never really that close in 2015/16, but there were more substantial problems that emerged in the editing process. In particular, around the same time George also said that he hadn't done much rewriting or editing for TWoW at all; it might just be that the rewrites and edits have ended up being much more involved than he'd hoped at the time.

Quote

But doesn't GRRM usually just rewrite chapters he isn't happy with over and over? As far as I know, he has never scrapped tons of finished material before, for any of the books. 

He executed a major rewrite of all of Jon Snow's ADWD material in 2008, IIRC, completely changed a major character's storyline in TWoW (it's unclear who's), and he eliminated ~300-500 pages of material from ADWD when he eliminated the Five-Year Gap and (effectively) replaced it with AFFC.

Nuking substantial amounts of material and starting over is relatively rare, but it has happened several times.

[Lord Varys]

Speaking of the scrapped Shrouded Lord stuff:

Has anybody ever asked George about the possibility to reintroduce that material into TWoW/ADoS when/if Tyrion (and whoever is accompanying him) is on his way back to Westeros? I mean, depending how he moves he could be made cross the Rhoyne yet again, giving time and opportunity to meet with that guy after all.

He has gone on record stating that he would like to eventually publish this material independently, but I'm wondering whether it could make sense to include the material in rewritten form in a later book.

Of course, it is difficult to speculate in light of the fact that we have no idea what exactly the implications of that entire meeting/conversation was. But I guess this could work reasonably well as a dark foreshadowing/setup for grand finale in relation to the threat of death/the end of the world in relation to the whole Others thing.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

58 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's speculation, but there is some circumstantial evidence supporting it.

• The publishers telling international translators (two I'm aware of) that the book should be available for translating shortly in 2016.
• GRRM reporting on New Year's Day 2016 that at various points in 2015 it looked doable to complete the book in a few months, if not weeks.
• The publishers asking for Fire & Blood (a draft of which they'd had in hand since 2013) as a stopgap in 2017 once it became clear that TWoW would not completed imminently.

I suspect when we get to the bottom of this we may find it's a oversimplification of the situation and the book was never really that close in 2015/16, but there were more substantial problems that emerged in the editing process. In particular, around the same time George also said that he hadn't done much rewriting or editing for TWoW at all; it might just be that the rewrites and edits have ended up being much more involved than he'd hoped at the time.

But if GRRM practically started from scratch in 2016 and didn't really kick into high gear until November 2018 (!), there is no way for the book to be released any time soon.  On the other hand, he did believe that he could finish it before Worldcon this year, so those rumors might be exaggerated. I don't really know what to believe.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But doesn't GRRM usually just rewrite chapters he isn't happy with over and over? As far as I know, he has never scrapped tons of finished material before, for any of the books. 

After a certain fanfic season 5 GRRM made a statement about changing the direction of a character that would impact more characters.  I can see a decision like that causing serious rewrites.   As I read notablog posts and note the chapters he tells us he's working on I imagine these are fairly early chapters.   Given the time between publications I think he may well have done this.  

[Kyll.Ing.]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He has gone on record stating that he would like to eventually publish this material independently, but I'm wondering whether it could make sense to include the material in rewritten form in a later book.

It's one of the books I hope we get to see from George after ASoIaF is finished: The Cutting Room Floor of Ice and Fire.

[lysmonger]

14 hours ago, Werthead said:

It's speculation, but there is some circumstantial evidence supporting it.

• The publishers telling international translators (two I'm aware of) that the book should be available for translating shortly in 2016.
• GRRM reporting on New Year's Day 2016 that at various points in 2015 it looked doable to complete the book in a few months, if not weeks.
• The publishers asking for Fire & Blood (a draft of which they'd had in hand since 2013) as a stopgap in 2017 once it became clear that TWoW would not completed imminently.

I suspect when we get to the bottom of this we may find it's a oversimplification of the situation and the book was never really that close in 2015/16, but there were more substantial problems that emerged in the editing process. In particular, around the same time George also said that he hadn't done much rewriting or editing for TWoW at all; it might just be that the rewrites and edits have ended up being much more involved than he'd hoped at the time.

He executed a major rewrite of all of Jon Snow's ADWD material in 2008, IIRC, completely changed a major character's storyline in TWoW (it's unclear who's), and he eliminated ~300-500 pages of material from ADWD when he eliminated the Five-Year Gap and (effectively) replaced it with AFFC.

Nuking substantial amounts of material and starting over is relatively rare, but it has happened several times.

I specifically remember him rewriting to get as many brotherhood without banners cowboys fans to be murdered in Jon Snow's chapters.

[Werthead]

11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But if GRRM practically started from scratch in 2016 and didn't really kick into high gear until November 2018 (!), there is no way for the book to be released any time soon.  On the other hand, he did believe that he could finish it before Worldcon this year, so those rumors might be exaggerated. I don't really know what to believe.

That's why I think the "started from scratch" thing is BS. I think making extensive changes requiring substantial rewrites but which also allowed some chapters to be kept intact is much more likely.

We should also recall that with GRRM not able to resume work on TWoW until late 2012/early 2013 and then "starting from scratch" in 2016 after most of the book being done, we are talking about the bulk of the book being written in under three years, which after his prior writing speed seems extremely unlikely.

This is the problem with basing things off rumours with no substance (the original source of the "nearly done in 2015 but started from scratch" rumour has been identified as someone with 0% involvement in either the UK or US publishers but was tangentially involved in the publishing industry and attending events, and was spouting off stuff for attention). The actual substance - the translators being told to prep for working on the book in 15/16 - is more interesting, but ultimately that could be down to publisher error.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

The original source of the "nearly done in 2015 but started from scratch" rumour has been identified as someone with 0% involvement in either the UK or US publishers but was tangentially involved in the publishing industry and attending events, and was spouting off stuff for attention.

So it wasn't one of GRRM's editors?

[Ran]

23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So it wasn't one of GRRM's editors?

No.