TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

That's why I think the "started from scratch" thing is BS. I think making extensive changes requiring substantial rewrites but which also allowed some chapters to be kept intact is much more likely.

That would be definitely BS. The idea that he was very unhappy with a lot of material he wrote and subsequently rewrote/is still rewriting entire plot lines isn't that unlikely all things considered.

It is much more likely than those weird optimistic ideas that he basically has completed a lot of material which could be shuffled straight into ADoS.

And one hopes that they don't make the same calls in the editorial department they did last time around ... when they moved golden material like 'The Forsaken' or 'Mercy' or even the Arianne chapters to the next book when they would have worked perfectly well in ADwD.

Try to fit as much material as you can in one book, I say. It is not that they are publishing those books every other year or so.

[Werthead]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Try to fit as much material as you can in one book, I say. It is not that they are publishing those books every other year or so.

That's what they did. They called time on the book at 1,520 MS pages, 420,000 words and anything past that would have to go into another volume. Today, with the series having sold an additional 80 million copies, they'd make another call, but back then that was the rules they were working with.

In retrospect it may have been better to have included the Forsaken, Mercy, the two Arianne chapters, the two battles and more in the book, which would have likely come to another 100-120 pages, and then split the resulting volume in two (and that may have helped GRRM with space problems now), but I can see why they and GRRM decided to do what they did.

[lysmonger]

16 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That's what they did. They called time on the book at 1,520 MS pages, 420,000 words and anything past that would have to go into another volume. Today, with the series having sold an additional 80 million copies, they'd make another call, but back then that was the rules they were working with.

In retrospect it may have been better to have included the Forsaken, Mercy, the two Arianne chapters, the two battles and more in the book, which would have likely come to another 100-120 pages, and then split the resulting volume in two (and that may have helped GRRM with space problems now), but I can see why they and GRRM decided to do what they did.

This is kind of why I sometimes wish GRRM would just release publish 20 or so chapters as part of a book. We pay ten or twenty dollars more, but so what. It  would be more gratifying than waiting and him making extremely difficult choices as to cut material or not.

Down the road the released novelettes could be combined to be one novel.

[Gravity Grave]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:48 PM, The Winged Griffin said:

Yes , so what happened ?

I've often wondered if he's actually trying to resolve the series a book earlier than planned, resulting in a re-write. It's hard to see how he'd accomplish that, but he's clearly struggled for whatever reason to get the book done and the idea that he has another (potentially the biggest one yet) must be daunting for him). Blog posts like his latest one where he said about not having a life whilst writing kind of gives away his mindset that it's at least something of a chore for him, when he'd rather be enjoying his twilight years. I'm sure the first few books were a pure labour of love where the stories just flowed out of him onto his PC screen. And whilst I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy writing anymore, it's certainly more of a cross he has to bear these days than something he's doing out of passion. I don't know George, so I don't know that even if there was a way he felt he could wrap the series up a book early that he would do that, but it has to have crossed his mind. Every book he writes makes the next one more difficult, it's not the sheer volume of writing, it's also joining up all the links, maksing sure everything is tight, remembering the little loose ends from earlier books and making sure everything flows and makes sense. It's a mammoth piece of work and at 71 years old now, assuming AWOW does come out in 2023, when will he realistically started ADOS...in 2024? Will he want a longer break? 2025? How old will he be then? The older he gets the harder it's going to be, the motivation will dwindle. 

I could be wrong, I've got nothing to base it on, but I do wonder if George is looking to reign it in with this book. I'd say probably not, but it just wouldn't surprise me if he did it, just to get it off his back and allow him to enjoy the rest of his years without the prospect of ADOS lingering over him.

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

That's what they did. They called time on the book at 1,520 MS pages, 420,000 words and anything past that would have to go into another volume. Today, with the series having sold an additional 80 million copies, they'd make another call, but back then that was the rules they were working with.

I don't know the details, but I recall George telling he went through the manuscript again after finishing the book to take out bits and pieces from the chapters that were not really necessary, further reducing the amount of text somewhat.

I daresay they could have easily enough down with 1,550 manuscript pages or even 1,570 or 1,600.

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

In retrospect it may have been better to have included the Forsaken, Mercy, the two Arianne chapters, the two battles and more in the book, which would have likely come to another 100-120 pages, and then split the resulting volume in two (and that may have helped GRRM with space problems now), but I can see why they and GRRM decided to do what they did.

I think I was rather specific there ... I'm not saying the battles should have been in, since I think those would amount to another 100 or more published pages, if you include a proper sort of closure with a kind of conversation/council following the battles, not ending on a cliffhanger ending in medias res for all characters (like done with Davos back in ACoK).

I think especially 'The Forsaken' and 'Mercy' could have been great contributions. They don't start new plots but rather continue the established story, putting things into a proper perspective ... especially with Euron.

And Arianne 1 & 2 definitely would have worked well in ADwD, too.

However, I certainly agree with not putting the Sansa chapter into the book. That clearly starts a new story and doesn't really provide the Sansa plot with a satisfying cliffhanger. People would rightfully ask what the point of the talk about a tourney was that we didn't see in the same book.

Vice versa, the Jaime chapter clearly should have been in AFfC, being the proper closure to the Jaime/Brienne story in that book.

[Werthead]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know the details, but I recall George telling he went through the manuscript again after finishing the book to take out bits and pieces from the chapters that were not really necessary, further reducing the amount of text somewhat.

I daresay they could have easily enough down with 1,550 manuscript pages or even 1,570 or 1,600.

I think I was rather specific there ... I'm not saying the battles should have been in, since I think those would amount to another 100 or more published pages, if you include a proper sort of closure with a kind of conversation/council following the battles, not ending on a cliffhanger ending in medias res for all characters (like done with Davos back in ACoK).

I think especially 'The Forsaken' and 'Mercy' could have been great contributions. They don't start new plots but rather continue the established story, putting things into a proper perspective ... especially with Euron.

And Arianne 1 & 2 definitely would have worked well in ADwD, too.

However, I certainly agree with not putting the Sansa chapter into the book. That clearly starts a new story and doesn't really provide the Sansa plot with a satisfying cliffhanger. People would rightfully ask what the point of the talk about a tourney was that we didn't see in the same book.

Vice versa, the Jaime chapter clearly should have been in AFfC, being the proper closure to the Jaime/Brienne story in that book.

That was the "sweat" edit that reduced the total by 60 MS pages. Not a lot.

The other chapters I think were judgement calls based on whether they were ending or starting storylines. GRRM made the call that Mercy was starting a new arc, not rounding one off. There's also certain things that happen with breaks between books, there's an implication that more time has passed than may be the case, which works well for Mercy (Arya going straight into using her powers to pose as a sex worker to kill people from her ADWD chapter would have been more jarring than her first chapter in a new book).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

In retrospect it may have been better to have included the Forsaken, Mercy, the two Arianne chapters, the two battles and more in the book, which would have likely come to another 100-120 pages, and then split the resulting volume in two (and that may have helped GRRM with space problems now), but I can see why they and GRRM decided to do what they did.

I don't think it matters very much, since ASOIAF is practically one giant book anyway. 

[The Map Guy]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:04 AM, lysmonger said:

So is GRRM now working on the beginning of the book? I'm assuming he's making references to what he's working on? He could be hinting what povs beginning at the book.

No no, he probably had TWOW-Prologue written years ago. From my research, he had the TWOW-Prologue storyline first, and then he wrote the ASOS Red Wedding after. This chapter is designed for a purpose. If you had to introduce a friend to read ONE solo chapter from ASOIAF to get him/her hooked into the series, this Prologue-chapter is it. It can even be a standalone movie.

But GRRM probably made many many changes and additions to the TWOW-Prologue over the years since ASOS 2000 ... probably a jape similar to HBO's GoT "Born amidst salt and smoke? Is he a ham?" Anyways I know the POV character 100% and even minor things like the meaning behind the type of hat George always wears.

On 8/17/2020 at 1:04 AM, lysmonger said:

Did he mention that the winds of winter has another Merenese knot he is trying to get around?

I don't know about the Esso's Meereenese Knot.
But I am sure George got his confidence back in Westeros' Meeranese Knot.
Just look at the NOTaBLOG's profile picture and the secret message that GRRM is hiding in plain sight ... the cartoon writer has a twin stack of paper.
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/08/15/back-in-westeros/

I wonder if his new NOTaBLOG about Fire & Blood has any secret messages.
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/08/17/fire-blood-comes-to-paperback/
Anyways, I still prefer my profile picture of Fire & Blood ... the one where the Targaryen lady is posing with a "hold" hand signal, standing on top of a pile of dead knights, with the city burning in the background ... probably holding out for one last heroic knight.

[ThotKiller]

On 6/25/2020 at 12:58 PM, Quaithe from Asshai said:

Welcome to TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely. 

 

Yes, i think TWOW will be plubished before or after House of the Dragon, GRRM will use the show as a marketing for the book. That's my theory

[M.Alhazred]

11 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

I've often wondered if he's actually trying to resolve the series a book earlier than planned, resulting in a re-write. It's hard to see how he'd accomplish that, but he's clearly struggled for whatever reason to get the book done and the idea that he has another (potentially the biggest one yet) must be daunting for him). Blog posts like his latest one where he said about not having a life whilst writing kind of gives away his mindset that it's at least something of a chore for him, when he'd rather be enjoying his twilight years. I'm sure the first few books were a pure labour of love where the stories just flowed out of him onto his PC screen. And whilst I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy writing anymore, it's certainly more of a cross he has to bear these days than something he's doing out of passion. I don't know George, so I don't know that even if there was a way he felt he could wrap the series up a book early that he would do that, but it has to have crossed his mind. Every book he writes makes the next one more difficult, it's not the sheer volume of writing, it's also joining up all the links, maksing sure everything is tight, remembering the little loose ends from earlier books and making sure everything flows and makes sense. It's a mammoth piece of work and at 71 years old now, assuming AWOW does come out in 2023, when will he realistically started ADOS...in 2024? Will he want a longer break? 2025? How old will he be then? The older he gets the harder it's going to be, the motivation will dwindle. 

I could be wrong, I've got nothing to base it on, but I do wonder if George is looking to reign it in with this book. I'd say probably not, but it just wouldn't surprise me if he did it, just to get it off his back and allow him to enjoy the rest of his years without the prospect of ADOS lingering over him.

I can see us getting a summary of the events in ADOS in a updated and revised edition of World. It isn't outta the realm of possibility.

[The Winged Griffin]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Just look at the NOTaBLOG's profile picture and the secret message that GRRM is hiding in plain sight ... the cartoon writer has a twin stack of paper.
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/08/15/back-in-westeros/

I wonder if his new NOTaBLOG about Fire & Blood has any secret messages.

GRRM, 23 june 2020: " It’s going to be a huge book, and I still have a long way to go.   Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings. "

 

[sifth]

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Just look at the NOTaBLOG's profile picture and the secret message that GRRM is hiding in plain sight ... the cartoon writer has a twin stack of paper.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/08/15/back-in-westeros/

 

Pretty sure GRRM has used that cartoon picture in the past before, even for updates on ADWD to be honest. I really wouldn't look for any hidden meaning behind it. We're only getting one book next year and even that's only if we're very, VERY lucky.

[The Map Guy]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Pretty sure GRRM has used that cartoon picture in the past before, even for updates on ADWD to be honest. I really wouldn't look for any hidden meaning behind it. We're only getting one book next year and even that's only if we're very, VERY lucky.

Well I believe GRRM had a lot problems after ASOS 2000 that burned his soul with conflict.
For example ... what does the twin stack of paper look like?
And remember what GRRM cryptically told D&D about the ending of ASOIAF? Where there was an aerial attack on ____________ and innocent people were ____________.  (D&D got it wrong btw, like every cryptic message that was given to them. TWOW-Prologue will clear one up, one of the HBO Season 8 plot-line that randomly came out of nowhere. D&D randomly put it in to fulfill GRRM's checklist)

Anyways GRRM should be freed of that soul burning conflict by now, especially since he had nothing to do with the real-time event. Most people have moved on. I forget sometimes too when I look outside my window.

2 hours ago, The Winged Griffin said:

GRRM, 23 june 2020: " It’s going to be a huge book, and I still have a long way to go.   Please do not give any credence to any of the click-bait websites that like to parse every word of my posts as if they were papal encyclicals to divine hidden meanings. "

Oh okay. I guess I should stop talking now.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

8 hours ago, ThotKiller said:

Yes, i think TWOW will be plubished before or after House of the Dragon, GRRM will use the show as a marketing for the book. That's my theory

Don´t think so. He will publish when he´s done. The book is soo eagerly awaited, he wouldnt need any marketing at all (there will be of course), but he won´t tie himself to the new show.

[sifth]

35 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

TWOW-Prologue will clear one up, one of the HBO Season 8 plot-line that randomly came out of nowhere. D&D randomly put it in to fulfill GRRM's checklist)

And what plot line will this be? We know literally noting about the prologue aside from the fact that Jayne Westerling will be in it, in some way, shape or form. The Jayne character doesn't even exist in the books so I have no idea how this can in anyway relate to the show. For some daft reason the show just replaced Jayne with some random healing lady that Robb met by chance on the battlefield and we all know what happened to her in season 3.

[The Map Guy]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

And what plot line will this be? We know literally noting about the prologue aside from the fact that Jayne Westerling will be in it, in some way, shape or form. The Jayne character doesn't even exist in the books so I have no idea how this can in anyway relate to the show.

That's classified.

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

That's classified.

If you say so man. To me you seem to be reaching at straws though. 

[The Winged Griffin]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

That's classified.

Ok. Sure... A shame. I'm actually curious to hear about any theory on the prologue.

[Mithras]

20 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

Every book he writes makes the next one more difficult

And whose fault is that? I know a gardener who doesn't make future plans.

[Mithras]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know the details, but I recall George telling he went through the manuscript again after finishing the book to take out bits and pieces from the chapters that were not really necessary, further reducing the amount of text somewhat.

You mean how GRRM trimmed 80! MS pages from ADwD which he named as cutting the fat.

Quote

At one point late in the process DANCE was considerably longer. The page count had gone beyond 1600 and was creeping up toward 1700, to my alarm. (At 1700 pages the book could not have been published in a single volume). Several things happened to bring it back down.

First, my editors and I made some decisions as to where to end this book which involved shifting a few chapters back into the next volume, THE WINDS OF WINTER. With a series like A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, there are always judgment calls to make as to where to end one book and begin the next, since you're really dealing with one long story. Does this scene work best at the end of one book or the beginning of the next? Should this character go out with a cliffhanger or with some sort of resolution (be it permanent or temporary)? And so on. ANd so forth.

Second, I did my sweat. That's a technique I learned in Hollywood, where my scripts were always too long. "This is too long," the studio would say. "Trim it by eight pages." But I hated to lose any good stuff -- scenes, dialogue exchanges, bits of action -- so instead I would go through the script trimming and tightening line by line and word by word, cutting out the fat and leaving the muscle. I found the process so valuable that I've done the same with all my books since leaving LA. It's the last stage of the process. Finish the book, then go through it, cutting, cutting, cutting. It produces a tighter, stronger text, I feel. In the case of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, my sweat -- most of it performed after we announced the book's publication date but before I delivered the final chapters -- brought the page count down almost eighty pages all by itself.

So according to George, there is no fat left in the published ADwD and it is all good stuff.