TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's hard to make an argument here, because I'm obviously not going to defend slavery. I think the issue isn't that Dany is ending the slave trade, but what her personality and ideology says about where she's heading. Dany believes that she's entitled to rule Westeros, a country she has no recollection of and whose people and culture is foreign to her. Every character who believes that the Iron Throne is "theirs by right" is corrupt in one way or another: Cersei and the Lannisters, Renly (who thought he could take the Throne just because he wanted it), even Stannis, who burns dissidents alive and wants to destroy the other religions of Westeros. We barely know Aegon, but I'd be willing to bet that he isn't going to be the perfect king that Varys and JonCon think he is. There's also the fact that burning people alive is arguably the cruelest and most inhumane form of execution (and Stannis and Mel are definitely also guilty here), and that Dany finds that empowering.

Personally, I think Dany's Meereenese plot is the weakest part of the series, and that most of the people who like it seem to view it as a confirmation of their own theories. I can understand why it took George so long to write. 

As a reminder, this is not to say that I think Dany is irredeemable or even unsympathetic. I just personally find her very unsettling.

I think there's a definite tension between Daenerys' more altruistic goals and her more self-interested ones.

[Mithras]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

WRT the old thread, I was initially persuaded by Apple Martini when I joined this site, but came to conclude she works from the assumption that Daenerys is the devil, and reasons backwards from there.

She turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong on Dany just like the rest of Team Khaleesi.

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Steven Attwell’s essay on slavery really altered my thinking.  https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/02/01-laboratory-of-politics-part-vi/index.html

That is a classic case of picking up a hammer in hand and everything suddenly looking like nails.

Slavery is filler in ASOIAF. Just shallow filler that is disturbingly built upon orientalist tropes. GRRM had to invent something for Dany in order to keep her occupied and this was the best he could do. Dany should have come to Westeros ages ago and left all the Essossi stuff behind. She will still come and none of the things related to Essos will matter in the rest of the story. Steven Attwell uses slavery to make some deep reading of the text but it is just nonsense.

As a matter of fact, being obsessed with this slavery narrative led "Team Khaleesi" to total blindness about what is to come for Dany (i.e. she is a villain in the making). "Dany haters" could see it coming from a mile away but those who claim to have made the deepest reading about Dany were oblivious. Some are still in denial.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Mithras said:

She turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong on Dany just like the rest of Team Khaleesi.

That is a classic case of picking up a hammer in hand and everything suddenly looking like nails.

Slavery is filler in ASOIAF. Just shallow filler that is disturbingly built upon orientalist tropes. GRRM had to invent something for Dany in order to keep her occupied and this was the best he could do. Dany should have come to Westeros ages ago and left all the Essossi stuff behind. She will still come and none of the things related to Essos will matter in the rest of the story. Steven Attwell uses slavery to make some deep reading of the text but it is just nonsense.

As a matter of fact, being obsessed with this slavery narrative led "Team Khaleesi" to total blindness about what is to come for Dany (i.e. she is a villain in the making). "Dany haters" could see it coming from a mile away but those who claim to have made the deepest reading about Dany were oblivious. Some are still in denial.

George Martin told you all that did he?  

I suppose it’s an idea.

 

[Mithras]

No offense taken. I remember you being more reasonable but I guess since the rest of the Team Khaleesi abandoned the ship, it falls on you have it afloat 

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Mithras said:

No offense taken. I remember you being more reasonable but I guess since the rest of the Team Khaleesi abandoned the ship, it falls on you have it afloat 

In general, I think this forum was way more hostile to her in 2011-14 than it is now.  She may very well crash and burn.  I’d just expect Martin to be way more nuanced than Apple Martini/Kelsey Hayes.

[BlackLightning]

@The Bard of Banefort and @SeanF

I have been saying for a about a year or so now that I think that the end of A Song of Ice and Fire (post-Others, pre-King Bran, pre-epilogue...so the last five or so chapters) will have about the same ending as Othello.

With Tyrion as Iago (the jealous, lying schemer), Dany as Desdemona (misunderstood, poorly communicative wife who is murdered), Jon as Othello (the hyperaggressive, insecure captain who kills his wife), Sansa as Emilia (the savvy but pure-hearted wife of Iago) and Bran as Cassio (Othello's friend and subordinate). Not only does it really work but it does set the stage for Bran being king. If the last parts of the Second Dance involve Dany and Jon devouring each other with Tyrion guilty of pitting them against each other, Bran makes the most sense to assume power over Westeros.

Arya would probably running around somewhere...maybe being a King Lear insert (Arya as Cordelia trying and failing to independently sally to the rescue of Jon as King Lear)

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

@The Bard of Banefort and @SeanF

I have been saying for a about a year or so now that I think that the end of A Song of Ice and Fire (post-Others, pre-King Bran, pre-epilogue...so the last five or so chapters) will have about the same ending as Othello.

With Tyrion as Iago (the jealous, lying schemer), Dany as Desdemona (misunderstood, poorly communicative wife who is murdered), Jon as Othello (the hyperaggressive, insecure captain who kills his wife), Sansa as Emilia (the savvy but pure-hearted wife of Iago) and Bran as Cassio (Othello's friend and subordinate). Not only does it really work but it does set the stage for Bran being king. If the last parts of the Second Dance involve Dany and Jon devouring each other with Tyrion guilty of pitting them against each other, Bran makes the most sense to assume power over Westeros.

Arya would probably running around somewhere...maybe being a King Lear insert (Arya as Cordelia trying and failing to independently sally to the rescue of Jon as King Lear)

It would work very well.

Hopefully, Cassio finishes by saying “torments will ope his lips.”

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

She turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong on Dany just like the rest of Team Khaleesi.

That is a classic case of picking up a hammer in hand and everything suddenly looking like nails.

Slavery is filler in ASOIAF. Just shallow filler that is disturbingly built upon orientalist tropes. GRRM had to invent something for Dany in order to keep her occupied and this was the best he could do. Dany should have come to Westeros ages ago and left all the Essossi stuff behind. She will still come and none of the things related to Essos will matter in the rest of the story. Steven Attwell uses slavery to make some deep reading of the text but it is just nonsense.

As a matter of fact, being obsessed with this slavery narrative led "Team Khaleesi" to total blindness about what is to come for Dany (i.e. she is a villain in the making). "Dany haters" could see it coming from a mile away but those who claim to have made the deepest reading about Dany were oblivious. Some are still in denial.

I disagree strongly. The slavery stuff is foreshadowing the central conflict against the Others. How they use the enslave the souls and bodies of dead men and force them to do their bidding.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Personally, I think Dany's Meereenese plot is the weakest part of the series, and that most of the people who like it seem to view it as a confirmation of their own theories. I can understand why it took George so long to write. 

 

I can't disagree with that.

The issue is that I don't think George ever properly adapted to Dany's storyline after the original 93 outline.

Because according to original trilogy outline, Dany is supposed to deal with the Dothraki, hatch dragons and maybe even free slaves and win the Unsullied all in the first book. Dany is supposed to attack Westeros and fight everyone and win in the second book (maybe she would've been freeing Essosi slaves and emancipating Westerosi serfs in the process?). And in the final third book, she's supposed to be ruling Westeros when the Others arrive. So, I really believe that the Meereenese storyline is a bit of a substitute for the Westerosi lords and knights.

It's a pretty cool thought. Having the Second Long Night be about with Dany struggling to get along with the Westerosi high and low (a big part of that insurgency has been adapted/retrofitted really well into the Riverlands story from Storm and Feast and the Northern story from Dance) AND the invasion of the Others AND the descent of Euron Greyjoy...

Whoa. That's scary.

It's also much more streamlined story than what we might end up getting...what with the Second Dance of the Dragons scheduled to happen at or around the same time as the Long Night.

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

@The Bard of Banefort and @SeanF

I have been saying for a about a year or so now that I think that the end of A Song of Ice and Fire (post-Others, pre-King Bran, pre-epilogue...so the last five or so chapters) will have about the same ending as Othello.

With Tyrion as Iago (the jealous, lying schemer), Dany as Desdemona (misunderstood, poorly communicative wife who is murdered), Jon as Othello (the hyperaggressive, insecure captain who kills his wife), Sansa as Emilia (the savvy but pure-hearted wife of Iago) and Bran as Cassio (Othello's friend and subordinate). Not only does it really work but it does set the stage for Bran being king. If the last parts of the Second Dance involve Dany and Jon devouring each other with Tyrion guilty of pitting them against each other, Bran makes the most sense to assume power over Westeros.

Arya would probably running around somewhere...maybe being a King Lear insert (Arya as Cordelia trying and failing to independently sally to the rescue of Jon as King Lear)

Very nice. If Tyrion does push Dany into being more ruthless and Jaime ends up dying in one of her attacks, that could be his own tragedy. Towards the end of ADWD, when someone asks Tyrion what he misses most in the world, his first thought is of Jaime, and he also has that dream where he is a two-headed man who kills Jaime--one head angry, the other weeping. I personally think that Jaime feels a great deal of guilt for what happened with Tysha--why confess at the worst possible time if he didn't?--and deep down, Tyrion knows this. The show might have actually been right in having that be what turns Tyrion against Dany--they just decided to throw Cersei in there with him. 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Very nice. If Tyrion does push Dany into being more ruthless and Jaime ends up dying in one of her attacks, that could be his own tragedy. Towards the end of ADWD, when someone asks Tyrion what he misses most in the world, his first thought is of Jaime, and he also has that dream where he is a two-headed man who kills Jaime--one head angry, the other weeping. I personally think that Jaime feels a great deal of guilt for what happened with Tysha--why confess at the worst possible time if he didn't?--and deep down, Tyrion knows this. The show might have actually been right in having that be what turns Tyrion against Dany--they just decided to throw Cersei in there with him. 

The show hinted at jealousy on the part of Tyrion, without developing it.  Book Tyrion reacts very badly to female rejection.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:47 PM, SeanF said:

Book Tyrion reacts very badly to female rejection.

Very badly is an understatement.

Forget Cersei and Tysha. I think I'm beginning to be very afraid for Sansa.

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show hinted at jealousy on the part of Tyrion, without developing it.  Book Tyrion reacts very badly to female rejection.

 

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Very badly is an underestimated.

Forget Cersei and Tysha. I think I'm beginning to be very afraid for Sansa.

Ooh that's a good point. The one thing Sansa has going for her right now is that, as far as Tyrion knows, she didn't favor any other men over him; she just didn't particularly like him. If Littlefinger tries to marry her off to Aegon, that will really fuel Tyrion's rage.

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

George Martin told you all that did he?  

I suppose it’s an idea.

 

Yes, that's us told I guess (and George)!

[The Winged Griffin]

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's also much more streamlined story than what we might end up getting...what with the Second Dance of the Dragons scheduled to happen at or around the same time as the Long Night.

It's perhaps the only way the rest of the story can fit in only two books imo. The Dance and the Long Night will have to happen at or around the same time if A Dream of Spring is to fit into A Dream of Spring in terms of page number. Otherwise, George is going to have to write a book between TWOW and ADOS, which in itself would be cool (yay, more ASOIAF) but hardly feasible.

Quote

In the deep of winter, the nights are long and dark…

From George's latest NaB post. Can we consider this another TWOW reference, or is it just convenient because we are currently in the middle of winter?

[Bobby B's Hamma]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:06 AM, The Winged Griffin said:

From George's latest NaB post. Can we consider this another TWOW reference, or is it just convenient because we are currently in the middle of winter?

I just assumed that it is a meaningless tease for those who constantly come to NaB for TWoW news

[BlackLightning]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Littlefinger tries to marry her off to Aegon, that will really fuel Tyrion's rage.

Not even Aegon.

Tyrion would be beyond outraged if Sansa married Sweetrobin and came across as somewhat content.

[Cas Stark]

 He's back to posting about Wild Cards, I can't say I find that encouraging.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 He's back to posting about Wild Cards, I can't say I find that encouraging.

I’ve never had much interest in Wild Cards.  I just wish he’d finish the damn story.  I hate being sucked into something, then left hanging.

[robb stark of the north]

We might as well start betting if we shall have this by the end of 2021.

[Cas Stark]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’ve never had much interest in Wild Cards.  I just wish he’d finish the damn story.  I hate being sucked into something, then left hanging.

Oh Yeah, I  have zero interest in Wild Cards, but I wonder, if a) he made significant progress w/Winds and is almost done and so is back to WC, or b) he's given up again on Winds and is back to distracting himself with WC.  

If I had any idea I would be waiting TEN YEARS for the 6th book in a 7 or 8 book series, I doubt I would have started GOT in the first place.