TWOW in 2021 seems ever more likely

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh Yeah, I  have zero interest in Wild Cards, but I wonder, if a) he made significant progress w/Winds and is almost done and so is back to WC, or b) he's given up again on Winds and is back to distracting himself with WC.  

If I had any idea I would be waiting TEN YEARS for the 6th book in a 7 or 8 book series, I doubt I would have started GOT in the first place. 

 

I fear we’ll be left with fan fiction.  Martin hates it, but if the author refuses to finish the tale , what’s the alternative?   

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I fear we’ll be left with fan fiction.  Martin hates it, but if the author refuses to finish the tale , what’s the alternative?   

He has only himself to blame.  I knew back in 2016 when he announced he wasn't getting Winds out, which was, let's be honest, already a year or two later later than it should have been, that he would never finish the series himself.  I'm back now to a 50/50 chance he ever gets Winds out at all.  I will never read any fan fiction, the show is close enough to that for me, and if it is the only end we get, then it is what it is.   

[The Winged Griffin]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh Yeah, I  have zero interest in Wild Cards, but I wonder, if a) he made significant progress w/Winds and is almost done and so is back to WC, or b) he's given up again on Winds and is back to distracting himself with WC.  

I'm afraid we might absolutely not like the answer. But judging from his recent posts on Winds, he probably made significant progress, but somehow I think he's not almost done. I don't know how I know, but I know. In any case, he's having a break, and it's not my place to complain about it. 

Potential new update in a New Year's post? It will have been two months since the one he made in November and he's been updating somewhat regularly since Covid began...

[Cas Stark]

The author promised his book fans that the show would never overtake the books and he failed to keep that promise.  I think it is absolutely fair that his fans criticize him for these failures, for his various contradictory statements, for his cagey answers and non answers.

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He has only himself to blame.  I knew back in 2016 when he announced he wasn't getting Winds out, which was, let's be honest, already a year or two later later than it should have been, that he would never finish the series himself.  I'm back now to a 50/50 chance he ever gets Winds out at all.  I will never read any fan fiction, the show is close enough to that for me, and if it is the only end we get, then it is what it is.   

The show was Increasingly bad fanfiction. There is much better fanfiction out there.  As you say, it is what is.

I do feel his refusal to finish the story has become wilful.

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The show was Increasingly bad fanfiction. There is much better fanfiction out there.  As you say, it is what is.

I do feel his refusal to finish the story has become wilful.

The whole thing is hard to fathom, even conceding that GRRM is a weird guy with some issues.  After he did the HBO deal he could have hired an entire town of flunkies to create flow charts, venn diagrams, computer programs to keep track of everyone's eye color, house ancestors and horse sex, write outlines, whatever.  It is inconceivable to me that he allowed whatever demons are at work here to over take him and, again, let's be honest, most probably ruin his legacy and his magnum opus.  The show goes down in history as one of the colossal failures of all time, and we still don't know whether it was due to GRRM saying 'done' here or D&D saying 'you're done here' or what caused him to cease all involvement except back slapping for Emmys.  If he never finishes the series, then the show is his real legacy. 

[Equilibrium]

I don't blame Martin for not finishing TWOW, I blame myself for caring.

I didn't think about it for a few years at all, happy as a peach, and with sudden surplus of unstructured time this year I found myself drifting back to checking the NAB and this forum for no good reason, shows you are never really free of something until concrete closure is had.

Book will either get out the way it will or it won't, me knowing any amount of time in advance will not change a thing, and I am bound to find out eventually that TWOW was released if it ever is, even if I go live in a cave. Great insight for me in time for a New Year's Resolution.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The whole thing is hard to fathom, even conceding that GRRM is a weird guy with some issues.  After he did the HBO deal he could have hired an entire town of flunkies to create flow charts, venn diagrams, computer programs to keep track of everyone's eye color, house ancestors and horse sex, write outlines, whatever.  It is inconceivable to me that he allowed whatever demons are at work here to over take him and, again, let's be honest, most probably ruin his legacy and his magnum opus.  The show goes down in history as one of the colossal failures of all time, and we still don't know whether it was due to GRRM saying 'done' here or D&D saying 'you're done here' or what caused him to cease all involvement except back slapping for Emmys.  If he never finishes the series, then the show is his real legacy. 

Sure.  The show has gone down as a pile of dogshit. Were I the author, I’d be horrified by it, and determined to produce the real version.

[Equilibrium]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The whole thing is hard to fathom, even conceding that GRRM is a weird guy with some issues.  After he did the HBO deal he could have hired an entire town of flunkies to create flow charts, venn diagrams, computer programs to keep track of everyone's eye color, house ancestors and horse sex, write outlines, whatever.  It is inconceivable to me that he allowed whatever demons are at work here to over take him and, again, let's be honest, most probably ruin his legacy and his magnum opus. 

He didn't think it was needed. He didn't know what he was getting himself into. I never heard of any writer who wrote multiple versions of the same content to see which one fits better. Rewriting yes, standard stuff, but cranking multiple viable versions and than comparing them and fitting them with multiple versions of some other content, insanity. I doubt it, but maybe it served him in the past, after all those five novels (two of them collaborations) he wrote pre-ASOIAF hardly could stop a door swinging, each like half the length of AGOT alone.

 

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sure.  The show has gone down as a pile of dogshit. Were I the author, I’d be horrified by it, and determined to produce the real version.

But he isn't is he?  I mean, its been 4 years since he was 4/5 months from finishing twice, and it has been a year and a half since the show ended, and no Winds in sight.  And even IF he did get Winds out in the Spring, he will never get another book done.   Never.  

The least he could have done was some explaining of this is how I envisioned it....to give his actual fans some context for understanding the show's final seasons.  Throw some kind of bone to his audience.  But, nope.  He's still keeping everything a secret.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Equilibrium said:

He didn't think it was needed. He didn't know what he was getting himself into. I never heard of any writer who wrote multiple versions of the same content to see which one fits better. Rewriting yes, standard stuff, but cranking multiple viable versions and than comparing them and fitting them with multiple versions of some other content, insanity. I doubt it, but maybe it served him in the past, after all those five novels (two of them collaborations) he wrote pre-ASOIAF hardly could stop a door swinging, each like half the length of AGOT alone.

 

Eh.  He went through the same nonsense with Feast and Dance.  Obsessing over the order of people getting to Meereen or whatever it was, rewriting and writing things in different ways, major overwriting and refusal to have anything edited....... and that all led to Dance being bloated and taking 6 years after his insane decision to put out a bunch of random chapters that is called Feast of Crows and grinding the narrative to a halt. 

Lessons learned:  none that I can see. 

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But he isn't is he?  I mean, its been 4 years since he was 4/5 months from finishing twice, and it has been a year and a half since the show ended, and no Winds in sight.  And even IF he did get Winds out in the Spring, he will never get another book done.   Never.  

The least he could have done was some explaining of this is how I envisioned it....to give his actual fans some context for understanding the show's final seasons.  Throw some kind of bone to his audience.  But, nope. 

It needs another author to take it over, as Brandon Sanderson did with a Wheel of Time.  At some point, Martin became obsessed with trivia.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It needs another author to take it over, as Brandon Sanderson did with a Wheel of Time.  At some point, Martin became obsessed with trivia.

Yes.  Completely.  It is still very odd to witness.  I was recently rereading some random Dance chapters, and I was reminded both how much I loved the story and how totally insanely overwritten and overstuffed almost every chapter was, full of useless details that have no bearing on the story.  Those Dany and Tyrion and Jon chapters went on forever.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes.  Completely.  It is still very odd to witness.  I was recently rereading some random Dance chapters, and I was reminded both how much I loved the story and how totally insanely overwritten and overstuffed almost every chapter was, full of useless details that have no bearing on the story.  Those Dany and Tyrion and Jon chapters went on forever.

I really enjoyed most of Dance, but it was desperately frustrating to be led up to the battle of Meereen, and the battle of ice, and then be left hanging.  And left hanging for ten years, with no end in sight.  And it’s disrespectful to the readers.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I really enjoyed most of Dance, but it was desperately frustrating to be led up to the battle of Meereen, and the battle of ice, and then be left hanging.  And left hanging for ten years, with no end in sight.  And it’s disrespectful to the readers.

I thought it really, really needed an edit.  I've said before, it could have easily been cut by 1/4 and maybe even 1/3 without losing much if anything, leaving room for the story to breath and move forward.  But, that's me, I dislike the Dorne story and while I found the Iron Island chapters more interesting they were still, except Asha, totally unnecessary. The Dany/Jon/Tyrion chapters just went on and on and on.  I've also said before that Meereen ruined Dany for me, I stopped liking her and rooting for her in Dance, same with Tyrion.

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought it really, really needed an edit.  I've said before, it could have easily been cut by 1/4 and maybe even 1/3 without losing much if anything, leaving room for the story to breath and move forward.  But, that's me, I dislike the Dorne story and while I found the Iron Island chapters more interesting they were still, except Asha, totally unnecessary. The Dany/Jon/Tyrion chapters just went on and on and on.  I've also said before that Meereen ruined Dany for me, I stopped liking her and rooting for her in Dance, same with Tyrion.

I started re-reading Dance and felt the same way.  Far too much extraneous material.  While I think 1/3 is a bit much, he could get rid of about 15% or so and it would improve things a lot.  Plus, that's 10 extra chapters.  And he's going to need them in Winds.  82 or so chapters is doable, if a bit thin.  73 chapters (the number in DWD) is flat-out unworkable.  Which is probably what is taking so long; he can't bear to jettison anything.

He needs an editor that will stand up to him.  GRRM's garden needs weeding and pruning.  Trust me, it will look a lot better after that is done.

[Dalinar]

I think the strategy of GRRM is clear: talk about ASOIAF until the new show comes out, to keep his loyal book fans excited and to stay in public up until the release of the new show. This makes for perfect marketing and ensures that his loyal fans stay tuned. In reality, he will never finish Winds of Winter and does not care to do so. He has a contract with HBO and that is all where his energy is going to. 

[Mithras]

I raise the stakes higher. Remove all the Brienne POVs and have her appear at that Jaime chapter just the same. We wouldn't lose a damn thing! And that is like half the AFfC we are talking about. And the worst thing is that GRRM deemed the Brienne story so important that he counted is as one of the things that prevented him from doing the 5 year gap.

[Nevets]

20 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I raise the stakes higher. Remove all the Brienne POVs and have her appear at that Jaime chapter just the same. We wouldn't lose a damn thing! And that is like half the AFfC we are talking about. And the worst thing is that GRRM deemed the Brienne story so important that he counted is as one of the things that prevented him from doing the 5 year gap.

Brienne is the least of the problems with the 5 year gap.  She can simply give up, go home, and then resume the search later with nothing lost.  It's stories like Stannis, the Boltons, and Kings Landing that are the problem.   No way are those standing still for 5 years, or anywhere close to it.

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Brienne is the least of the problems with the 5 year gap.  She can simply give up, go home, and then resume the search later with nothing lost.  It's stories like Stannis, the Boltons, and Kings Landing that are the problem.   No way are those standing still for 5 years, or anywhere close to it.

From PhilCon reports:

 

Quote

 

The next book in the ASoIaF series will be called A Feast for Crows.
There will NOT be a 5-year gap.
There will be 2 new POVs - Cersei and another PoV that was not revealed.

...

POV info: GRRM said the second new POV is a large part of the reason the 5-year gap got scrapped. It is someone's whose story had to be told immediately. A lot of people are guessing Sandor, because we don't know if he is alive or dead. Some other possibilities might include Brienne or Jorah. How about a Stannis?

 

The second new POV was Brienne. Now, ask yourself whether her story had to be told immediately, or whether she has a story in the first place or not.