Tyrion's battle prowess

[Aebram]

Another possible factor: in battle, most enemy soldiers might not think Tyrion was worth attacking. Being small, he wouldn't look like much of a threat.  While you're fighting him, some stronger opponent might sneak up on you from behind.  And as Ser Vardis pointed out at The Eyrie, there's not much honor or glory in killing a dwarf.

[The Sunland Lord]

27 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Another possible factor: in battle, most enemy soldiers might not think Tyrion was worth attacking. Being small, he wouldn't look like much of a threat.  While you're fighting him, some stronger opponent might sneak up on you from behind.  And as Ser Vardis pointed out at The Eyrie, there's not much honor or glory in killing a dwarf.

I think many would want to kill Tyrion Lannister in battle, because of his name. From a political point of view it makes sense for the enemies to kill one of the Lannister family. Captured is more valuable, of course, but I'm sure that Robb or Stannis or even Renly for that matter would've appreciated the man who killed Tyrion Lannister in battle. 

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

On 6/30/2020 at 8:46 AM, Seams said:

I'm sure it's frustrating when you want other people to read your mind - not to mention following your line of thinking. These pesky forums allow people to speak their own mind and that can get in the way of a person's desire to control responses to a wide-open question.

So now you are saying that the goal of the thread is to discuss why the combat scene with Tyrion "doesn't line up with other stuff in GRRM's writing"? And you would like an in-story explanation?

I don't want to run afoul of your unspoken rules, but maybe the following comment from an earlier thread is on-topic. I find that Tyrion's combat scene at the Green Fork lines up closely with "other stuff" in ASOIAF, however, based on close reading of in-story evidence. If there is anyone who thinks that key scenes in GRRM's writing do not line up with other stuff in his writing, however, I'm sure this answer will not help them.

If you re-read my earlier comment, you will see that I am not arguing that anything can happen in fiction. My point is that GRRM has well-thought-out reasons that Tyrion is victorious at the Green Fork, using alliances and relying on key warriors as well as his own combat efforts and leadership skills. The scene marks a further break between Tywin and Tyrion as the younger man gathers merit badges in a variety of contexts, grows in his autonomous skill and seems to move toward a destiny of leadership in Westeros.

But I will eagerly watch the thread to see if others have in-story explanations that satisfy your narrow and mistaken expectations.

 

Sorry I did not read your post in full as it seemed to be a response by someone who's feelings are clearly hurt that I didnt find your explanation of "its fiction" to be very good. What post on this forum cant be answered with "its fiction and it will be whatever GRRM decides to write" 

- is R+L = J true.  Well its fiction so no it's not true

 

-how does the red god have power to resurrect the dead... well its fiction that's how...

 

Sorry I just thought it was a lame answer that defeats the purpose on the threads of discussion of the books. No one needs to read my mind I asked a question and usally people respond with there opinions and sometimes a in story example by mo means didni say this was a requirement I'm just saying the answer of "its fiction" seems like more trouble than it's worth for both you the poster and anyone who waste. .5 seconds to read it. If you disagree all good there are about 20 thousand posts in need of your "expertise" and clarification that it is in deed fiction

[Seams]

44 minutes ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

Sorry I did not read your post in full as it seemed to be a response by someone who's feelings are clearly hurt that I didnt find your explanation of "its fiction" to be very good. What post on this forum cant be answered with "its fiction and it will be whatever GRRM decides to write" 

- is R+L = J true.  Well its fiction so no it's not true

 

-how does the red god have power to resurrect the dead... well its fiction that's how...

 

Sorry I just thought it was a lame answer that defeats the purpose on the threads of discussion of the books. No one needs to read my mind I asked a question and usally people respond with there opinions and sometimes a in story example by mo means didni say this was a requirement I'm just saying the answer of "its fiction" seems like more trouble than it's worth for both you the poster and anyone who waste. .5 seconds to read it. If you disagree all good there are about 20 thousand posts in need of your "expertise" and clarification that it is in deed fiction

1) My feelings were not hurt. I will accept that you don't understand my point. I included many examples of Tyrion's triumphs and good fortune - what many readers would consider "in story examples."

2) My words were, "We know the books are fiction (sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone)." Not excluding you from the "we" pronoun. Apparently the sentence hurt your feelings. I apologize for any pain I may have caused you.

2) A response employing coherent, cogent, grammatically correct prose would be helpful but, as you point out, "more trouble than it's worth" seems to be an accurate characterization.

Bonne chance, little one!

[Stannis th3 Mannis]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

1) My feelings were not hurt. I will accept that you don't understand my point. I included many examples of Tyrion's triumphs and good fortune - what many readers would consider "in story examples."

2) My words were, "We know the books are fiction (sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone)." Not excluding you from the "we" pronoun. Apparently the sentence hurt your feelings. I apologize for any pain I may have caused you.

2) A response employing coherent, cogent, grammatically correct prose would be helpful but, as you point out, "more trouble than it's worth" seems to be an accurate characterization.

Bonne chance, little one!

Your original answer started with a explanation of how physics work in the flintstones to make your point that this is fiction and Grrm does not need to follow real world thinking. AGAIN it was just  " Its fiction it's not real" just in a longer more drawn out way (imo maybe this isnnotnhownyou actually meant it). The op wasent so much about Tyrion or GRRM not holding to real world attributes of dwarfs as much as it was questioning as to why imo Tyrion dosent hold true to his self in other parts of the book. Like with his legs cramping at times yet being abel to hold his own in battle. This is why I asked the question. To see if maybe others shared my thoughts and/or maybe I had overlooked a explanation or anything else on the subject in my previous readings ( as has been the case before) I've learned a great deal from these forums that I can honestly say I would not have caught with a 100 reread.  I feltnyour original answer to be " it's not real so stop asking questions as if it is" when I feel like these forums are here to ask questions and discuss stuff like this from the books. So that's my explanation not saying was right in how I took your answer so maybe the fault is with me. if I mistook you I apologize 

[BlackLightning]

On 6/27/2020 at 8:46 PM, Kierria S said:

Tyrion's being able to swing his axe with enough velocity is uncanny for a person of his mass.  An axe is not a Ping iron.  It is heavier.  So to borrow a term from our colleague @BlackLightning  and say Tyrion is George Martin's love letter to himself.  George created a character whom he shares a lot of traits with and endowed that person with battle prowess and unreal strength. 

I appreciate the reference.

I do think Tyrion, Sam and Bran all carry parts of GRRM within their stories. Bran is the son GRRM wish he had (or, alternatively, the incarnation of the boy GRRM was and the adulthood he dreamed of as a boy) and Sam is who GRRM felt like he became. However, since Tyrion is a villain who is bound to get worse, Tyrion seems to be emblematic of GRRM's darker lower nature: all of his pain, disappointment, anger, self-pities and jealousies put on paper.

Think about it.

• all of them have physical disabilities and impairments
• all have complicated relationships with their parents
• all have had dreams that were either crushed or deferred
• all are distinctly non-martial (Tyrion is the most martial of the three but he pales in comparison to Arya, a girl who is but a third of his age)
• all have interests within the same purview. Sam wanted to be a "wizard," was supposed to be a lordly warrior but he is becoming a scholar; Bran wanted to be a warrior, is becoming an actual wizard and maybe even become a demi-god and the King of all Westeros; Tyrion wanted to be a priest, was supposed to be a lord, is currently a scholar, has been a part-time warrior but he wants to be a king.

That's a different topic though.

On 6/28/2020 at 9:38 AM, Seams said:

I remember watching "The Flintstones" cartoon when I was a kid and saying, "This is so fakey!" The cartoon focused on a "stone age" family who lived like a 1960s family except everything was made of stone and tools used talking animals. When Fred Flintstone ran across a room, the room would go on and on as if it was the length of a football field. It was fakey but I always watched again the next day.

My point is that GRRM doesn't have to follow the laws of dwarf physics when he tells Tyrion's story. We know the books are fiction (sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone). Tyrion is amazingly good at almost everything he tries and he is very lucky. When he goes to the Wall, Benjen Stark gives him the use of a bear skin that he did not expect Tyrion to accept. Tyrion finds a champion and gets out of the sky cells at the Eyrie. Tyrion manages to persuade the mountain clans to follow him and fight for him. Tyrion attracts genuine affection from Tysha and seemingly sincere affection from Shea (although she is being paid). Tyrion gets to marry the lovely Sansa Stark, a much-coveted maiden / heiress bride. Tyrion steps into the role of Hand of the King and does a great job. Tyrion uses his wits to figure out who is spying on him for Cersei. Tyrion steps into the role of Master of Coin and is apparently competent there, too. Tyrion climbs a high ladder, steps over a burning log and obtains a crossbow to kill the most powerful man in Westeros. Tyrion writes a book to teach a (supposed) Targaryen about dragons.

The list can go on and on.

So, yes, if you are thinking in terms of a small person in the real world engaging in armed combat with armor and horses and full-sized opponents, it is hard to imagine that Tyrion has the ability to emerge victorious from a chaotic and physical combat situation. But this is part and parcel of what he does. He reads books, he drinks wine and he masters every situation he encounters.

To your point about Tyrion's luck, here is my point.

Tyrion doesn't master every situation he encounters; he is just simply lucky. Tyrion's luck will run out one day. Make no mistake. Tyrion will more than likely have a bad end at the hands of one of the surviving Starks.

Tyrion's luck reminds me a lot of Robb Stark's surprising successes at the beginning of the series. Robb made one misstep (a relatively minor) and then it was a wrap. Tyrion will face the same.

On 6/30/2020 at 9:43 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

I think the author wants to show the reader that Fortune, or the Gods, favour him for some reason.

Those moments to me seemed like something that is supposed to be borderline magical, if not through clear agency (like Melisandre for example), but to be understood in that way by the reader. 

If that was the case, why did he lose his trial-by-combat for the murder of King Joffrey.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I appreciate the reference.

I do think Tyrion, Sam and Bran all carry parts of GRRM within their stories. Bran is the son GRRM wish he had (or, alternatively, the incarnation of the boy GRRM was and the adulthood he dreamed of as a boy) and Sam is who GRRM felt like he became. However, since Tyrion is a villain who is bound to get worse, Tyrion seems to be emblematic of GRRM's darker lower nature: all of his pain, disappointment, anger, self-pities and jealousies put on paper.

Think about it.

• all of them have physical disabilities and impairments
• all have complicated relationships with their parents
• all have had dreams that were either crushed or deferred
• all are distinctly non-martial (Tyrion is the most martial of the three but he pales in comparison to Arya, a girl who is but a third of his age)
• all have interests within the same purview. Sam wanted to be a "wizard," was supposed to be a lordly warrior but he is becoming a scholar; Bran wanted to be a warrior, is becoming an actual wizard and maybe even become a demi-god and the King of all Westeros; Tyrion wanted to be a priest, was supposed to be a lord, is currently a scholar, has been a part-time warrior but he wants to be a king.

That's a different topic though.

To your point about Tyrion's luck, here is my point.

Tyrion doesn't master every situation he encounters; he is just simply lucky. Tyrion's luck will run out one day. Make no mistake. Tyrion will more than likely have a bad end at the hands of one of the surviving Starks.

Tyrion's luck reminds me a lot of Robb Stark's surprising successes at the beginning of the series. Robb made one misstep (a relatively minor) and then it was a wrap. Tyrion will face the same.

If that was the case, why did he lose his trial-by-combat for the murder of King Joffrey.

That is quite an interesting thread connecting between Bran and George Martin.  I do not think you mean they are the same kind of kid.  Bran is athletic and had good fighting skills.  I may be wrong about the author but he was not like that.  So are you talking about how the author sees himself?  Like how he perceived himself in his youth?  The way some of the chapter titles depart from the usual name-only is how the point of view character sees themselves.  The Soiled Knight is one example.  The character sees himself as such.  Young George saw himself as the bold young man that became Bran.  But what is with the self perception of being a cripple?  I don't ever recall George mentioning a physical problem.  Can it be an emotional problem which handicapped him in his youth?

 

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

That is quite an interesting thread connecting between Bran and George Martin.  I do not think you mean they are the same kind of kid.  Bran is athletic and had good fighting skills.  I may be wrong about the author but he was not like that.  So are you talking about how the author sees himself?  Like how he perceived himself in his youth?  The way some of the chapter titles depart from the usual name-only is how the point of view character sees themselves.  The Soiled Knight is one example.  The character sees himself as such.  Young George saw himself as the bold young man that became Bran.  But what is with the self perception of being a cripple?  I don't ever recall George mentioning a physical problem.  Can it be an emotional problem which handicapped him in his youth?

 

I think Bran Stark is either how GRRM saw himself in his youth, what GRRM wanted to be in his youth AND/OR the son that GRRM always wanted to have.

Sam Tarly seems to be more akin to the reality GRRM lived whereas Tyrion Lannister aligns more with the darker desires, fantasies and ambitions GRRM might've had as an overlooked or dismissed adolescent and young adult.

I don't know GRRM so I can't speak to whether or not it was an emotional problem that handicapped him. But I am pretty sure that George had always been overweight even as a child and wasn't very athletic. To be an overweight child (maybe not by our modern definition of overweight children) in the 50s and early 60s when few were overweight would be quite the obstacle. If he was not only heavier but clumsier and more predisposed to bookish behavior than the average boy, then that'd be an even bigger obstacle. So much so that it would feel like he was handicapped; not only to GRRM but to many others who grew up in a similar situation.

I do know that he would've had a hard time getting and keeping the attention of girls. Probably felt ugly and unlovable (I was an overweight kid so I can relate) which is where the Tyrion comparisons come in.

[Seams]

This is getting WAY off topic but I feel the need to respond.

GRRM is an author who writes fiction. I'm sure that he creates characters based on a lifetime of reading and writing as well as some life experiences. Amateur psychoanalysis is an insult to him and to his work. Unless he has said something in an interview about his inspiration for a character or the way that he identifies with a character, it is extremely rude to make inferences about his life or his state of mind based on his writing.

P.S. I think Sam Tarly may be becoming buff and resourceful as a result of his work in Essos and on the ship to reach Oldtown. He is no longer Ser Piggy.

[The Sunland Lord]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

If that was the case, why did he lose his trial-by-combat for the murder of King Joffrey.

Oberyn lost; but Tyrion still managed to survive despite that fact. 

[Kierria]

On 7/11/2020 at 4:00 PM, BlackLightning said:

I appreciate the reference.

I do think Tyrion, Sam and Bran all carry parts of GRRM within their stories. Bran is the son GRRM wish he had (or, alternatively, the incarnation of the boy GRRM was and the adulthood he dreamed of as a boy) and Sam is who GRRM felt like he became. However, since Tyrion is a villain who is bound to get worse, Tyrion seems to be emblematic of GRRM's darker lower nature: all of his pain, disappointment, anger, self-pities and jealousies put on paper.

Think about it.

• all of them have physical disabilities and impairments
• all have complicated relationships with their parents
• all have had dreams that were either crushed or deferred
• all are distinctly non-martial (Tyrion is the most martial of the three but he pales in comparison to Arya, a girl who is but a third of his age)
• all have interests within the same purview. Sam wanted to be a "wizard," was supposed to be a lordly warrior but he is becoming a scholar; Bran wanted to be a warrior, is becoming an actual wizard and maybe even become a demi-god and the King of all Westeros; Tyrion wanted to be a priest, was supposed to be a lord, is currently a scholar, has been a part-time warrior but he wants to be a king.

That's a different topic though.

To your point about Tyrion's luck, here is my point.

Tyrion doesn't master every situation he encounters; he is just simply lucky. Tyrion's luck will run out one day. Make no mistake. Tyrion will more than likely have a bad end at the hands of one of the surviving Starks.

Tyrion's luck reminds me a lot of Robb Stark's surprising successes at the beginning of the series. Robb made one misstep (a relatively minor) and then it was a wrap. Tyrion will face the same.

If that was the case, why did he lose his trial-by-combat for the murder of King Joffrey.

Like  

Let us hope the author does not show too much favoritism to those who are most like him.  

 

[BlackLightning]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:34 AM, Seams said:

This is getting WAY off topic but I feel the need to respond.

GRRM is an author who writes fiction. I'm sure that he creates characters based on a lifetime of reading and writing as well as some life experiences. Amateur psychoanalysis is an insult to him and to his work. Unless he has said something in an interview about his inspiration for a character or the way that he identifies with a character, it is extremely rude to make inferences about his life or his state of mind based on his writing.

P.S. I think Sam Tarly may be becoming buff and resourceful as a result of his work in Essos and on the ship to reach Oldtown. He is no longer Ser Piggy.

He did. He has talked about his connection to Bran. It was around the same time that he revealed that Arya is his wife's favorite character.

On 7/14/2020 at 4:13 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Oberyn lost; but Tyrion still managed to survive despite that fact. 

Again...lucky.

[nyser1]

He's not...

[Wolfking007]

Tyrion has the perfect physical predispositions for battles. He's small, being dwarf and all, and battles are often chaotic and confusing, so being short is an advantage... Nobody can see you

So, watch out for those low blows

[Jon Fossoway]

On 6/25/2020 at 8:13 PM, James Steller said:

The Battle of the Green Fork is one of my least favourite battles of the story. It’s so incredibly one sided in favour of the Lannisters. They have light casualties while the Stark force loses practically half their men. They start out with, what seventeen or eighteen thousand, and in the next book they’re down to just ten thousand. And yes, Tyrion kills several men despite never being trained for combat and despite having what is legally deemed to be a physical disability in our reality. But then again, his dwarfism is portrayed quite strangely in that first book (ex. his incredible acrobatics).

That battle is told from a very narrow perspective, for starters. Tyrion was fielding a side ("this is our river, protect the river and the such"). The northmen were to block Lannister movement in the region. And Roose Bolton, taking advantage of the situation, apparently bled his army to further his own agenda.

I do find it a bit over the top seeing Tyrion slashing people around. He is a short man, he has short limbs, he presumably isn't strong on the arm. I guess GRRM got to exercize in fiction here. This scene could have played some other more realistic way, as in having some clansmen do the killing for him. But hey, I don't complain for one. 

[Rondo]

On 8/13/2020 at 4:34 PM, Wolfking007 said:

Tyrion has the perfect physical predispositions for battles. He's small, being dwarf and all, and battles are often chaotic and confusing, so being short is an advantage... Nobody can see you

So, watch out for those low blows

 

Oh the Yoda effect.  Understood.  

[Loose Bolt]

8 hours ago, Rondo said:

Oh the Yoda effect.  Understood.  

Another important thing considering why it would be very good idea to capture Tyrion alive is 

Or his potential ransom would be very high captured alive. But if he dies his killer would get nothing.

[Lord Lannister]

I mean if short people all could fight as good as Tyrion did in the books, all the armies across the world would be drafting dwarves and children.

[James West]

On 8/13/2020 at 4:34 PM, Wolfking007 said:

Tyrion has the perfect physical predispositions for battles. He's small, being dwarf and all, and battles are often chaotic and confusing, so being short is an advantage... Nobody can see you

So, watch out for those low blows

 

A sexy fighting machine Tyrion might be.  But let's put him in front of a urinal with a full bladder and test his air time.

[Loose Bolt]

21 minutes ago, James West said:

A sexy fighting machine Tyrion might be.  But let's put him in front of a urinal with a full bladder and test his air time.

We know that Aeron Greyjoy was prisoner of Lannisters so there is a chance that he taught Tyrion how to solve that problem.