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Stannis th3 Mannis

Tyrion's battle prowess

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Just re listening to agot and does it strike anyone else s odd  how good Tyrion seems to be at fighting? In the vanguard noless during the first battle. Going off what he says you would think he was almost helpless yet he is fighting and winning against soldiers. Even if some of them are just farm hands 

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The Battle of the Green Fork is one of my least favourite battles of the story. It’s so incredibly one sided in favour of the Lannisters. They have light casualties while the Stark force loses practically half their men. They start out with, what seventeen or eighteen thousand, and in the next book they’re down to just ten thousand. And yes, Tyrion kills several men despite never being trained for combat and despite having what is legally deemed to be a physical disability in our reality. But then again, his dwarfism is portrayed quite strangely in that first book (ex. his incredible acrobatics).

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6 hours ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

Just re listening to agot and does it strike anyone else s odd  how good Tyrion seems to be at fighting? In the vanguard noless during the first battle. Going off what he says you would think he was almost helpless yet he is fighting and winning against soldiers. Even if some of them are just farm hands 

As far as I remeber he underwent some combat training in Casterly Rock, still it does not explain much. The battle at Blackwater bank... he killed many knights there and jumped on burning ships like a marvel superhero. I wonder why he was not knighted after the display of badassery. And why haven't he rewarded podric payne... but their relation is another story.

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Posted (edited)

I also don't find that writing very believable.  Especially with reminders that Tyrion is much smaller than in Tv adaptation and deformed with leg cramps.

He also really has luck with horses in battle , he tramples one man with his horse, than his destrier bites face of another.

But when faced with knight with a morning star that knocks him off horse and without weapons, he doesn't get trampled by knight's horse but lurches (jumps) in full armor and with his height of 120 cm, and health issues he has . He Impales bowels of his foes horse with spiked helmet, killing it instantly and horse falls on his rider, not on Tyrion.

Which really isn't plausible at all, and don't get me started of his physical involvement during the charge at Battle of Blackwater. He is intellectually formidable opponent but physically absolutely not.

When you delve deeper , plot armor exists in books frequently ,especially for favorite characters.

Edited by Eltharion21

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13 hours ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

Just re listening to agot and does it strike anyone else s odd  how good Tyrion seems to be at fighting? In the vanguard noless during the first battle. Going off what he says you would think he was almost helpless yet he is fighting and winning against soldiers. Even if some of them are just farm hands 

Tyrion is still quite strong. His torso is the same as other men, and his legs and arms are short but not weak. His overall stature can also be played to his advantage. He's harder to see, especially by someone wearing a helm, and there is less of him to hit, even when he is on horseback.

It's kind of like Sam vs. Shelob. Few full-grown men would have been able to get underneath her and stab her in the belly.

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6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I also don't find that writing very believable.  Especially with reminders that Tyrion is much smaller than in Tv adaptation and deformed with leg cramps.

He also really has luck with horses in battle , he tramples one man with his horse, than his destrier bites face of another.

But when faced with knight with a morning star that knocks him off horse and without weapons, he doesn't get trampled by knight's horse but lurches (jumps) in full armor and with his height of 120 cm, and health issues he has . He Impales bowels of his foes horse with spiked helmet, killing it instantly and horse falls on his rider, not on Tyrion.

Which really isn't plausible at all, and don't get me started of his physical involvement during the charge at Battle of Blackwater. He is intellectually formidable opponent but physically absolutely not.

When you delve deeper , plot armor exists in books frequently ,especially for favorite characters.

I thought GRRM was against plot armor, which explains why characters like Ned and Robb are dead.

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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought GRRM was against plot armor, which explains why characters like Ned and Robb are dead.

Ned and Robb were characters meant to die and fall. Like Tywin, like Robert, Renly and in some minor part Kevan, the plot simply can't advance with them around. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion is still quite strong. His torso is the same as other men, and his legs and arms are short but not weak. His overall stature can also be played to his advantage. He's harder to see, especially by someone wearing a helm, and there is less of him to hit, even when he is on horseback.

It's kind of like Sam vs. Shelob. Few full-grown men would have been able to get underneath her and stab her in the belly.

Sam had elven forged Sting and Light of Galadriel and even then he only wounded Shelob.  Tyrion might have great upper body strength, fine , but with mention of leg cramps and having difficulty of going up the stair being able to jump in full armor and disembowel horse or do cartwheel isn't believable at all.

Edited by Eltharion21

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How valuable Tyrion would have been for anyone who would have been lucky enough to capture him alive? Or there is a chance that reason why T survived all those battles was greed. After all greed is good.

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Tyrion's being able to swing his axe with enough velocity is uncanny for a person of his mass.  An axe is not a Ping iron.  It is heavier.  So to borrow a term from our colleague @BlackLightning  and say Tyrion is George Martin's love letter to himself.  George created a character whom he shares a lot of traits with and endowed that person with battle prowess and unreal strength. 

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9 hours ago, Codeman Lambert said:

Tyrion's being able to swing his axe with enough velocity is uncanny for a person of his mass.  An axe is not a Ping iron.  It is heavier.  So to borrow a term from our colleague @BlackLightning  and say Tyrion is George Martin's love letter to himself.  George created a character whom he shares a lot of traits with and endowed that person with battle prowess and unreal strength. 

the mass and lenght of his arm. I think it would be very hard for him to effectively hit somebody from horseback

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2 hours ago, broken one said:

the mass and lenght of his arm. I think it would be very hard for him to effectively hit somebody from horseback

Yes

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Posted (edited)

I remember watching "The Flintstones" cartoon when I was a kid and saying, "This is so fakey!" The cartoon focused on a "stone age" family who lived like a 1960s family except everything was made of stone and tools used talking animals. When Fred Flintstone ran across a room, the room would go on and on as if it was the length of a football field. It was fakey but I always watched again the next day.

My point is that GRRM doesn't have to follow the laws of dwarf physics when he tells Tyrion's story. We know the books are fiction (sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone). Tyrion is amazingly good at almost everything he tries and he is very lucky. When he goes to the Wall, Benjen Stark gives him the use of a bear skin that he did not expect Tyrion to accept. Tyrion finds a champion and gets out of the sky cells at the Eyrie. Tyrion manages to persuade the mountain clans to follow him and fight for him. Tyrion attracts genuine affection from Tysha and seemingly sincere affection from Shea (although she is being paid). Tyrion gets to marry the lovely Sansa Stark, a much-coveted maiden / heiress bride. Tyrion steps into the role of Hand of the King and does a great job. Tyrion uses his wits to figure out who is spying on him for Cersei. Tyrion steps into the role of Master of Coin and is apparently competent there, too. Tyrion climbs a high ladder, steps over a burning log and obtains a crossbow to kill the most powerful man in Westeros. Tyrion writes a book to teach a (supposed) Targaryen about dragons.

The list can go on and on.

So, yes, if you are thinking in terms of a small person in the real world engaging in armed combat with armor and horses and full-sized opponents, it is hard to imagine that Tyrion has the ability to emerge victorious from a chaotic and physical combat situation. But this is part and parcel of what he does. He reads books, he drinks wine and he masters every situation he encounters.

Edited by Seams

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On 6/27/2020 at 6:49 AM, Eltharion21 said:

Sam had elven forged Sting and Light of Galadriel and even then he only wounded Shelob.  Tyrion might have great upper body strength, fine , but with mention of leg cramps and having difficulty of going up the stair being able to jump in full armor and disembowel horse or do cartwheel isn't believable at all.

Right, but even Sting would have been of little use if Sam had been too tall to get underneath her. And the phial was enough to back her up a bit, but it didn't kill her.

I'm not saying Tyrion is invincible by any means, but he's not a complete pushover either.

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Posted (edited)

Having an amazing mind, giant balls, being the blood of the dragon, and being in a kill or be killed situation all combine to tranform someone who struggles with stairs on an ordinary day into someone who would stove your head in as soon as look at you quite effectively.

Edited by Sal Pimienta

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On 6/28/2020 at 9:38 AM, Seams said:

I remember watching "The Flintstones" cartoon when I was a kid and saying, "This is so fakey!" The cartoon focused on a "stone age" family who lived like a 1960s family except everything was made of stone and tools used talking animals. When Fred Flintstone ran across a room, the room would go on and on as if it was the length of a football field. It was fakey but I always watched again the next day.

My point is that GRRM doesn't have to follow the laws of dwarf physics when he tells Tyrion's story. We know the books are fiction (sorry if that's a spoiler for anyone). Tyrion is amazingly good at almost everything he tries and he is very lucky. When he goes to the Wall, Benjen Stark gives him the use of a bear skin that he did not expect Tyrion to accept. Tyrion finds a champion and gets out of the sky cells at the Eyrie. Tyrion manages to persuade the mountain clans to follow him and fight for him. Tyrion attracts genuine affection from Tysha and seemingly sincere affection from Shea (although she is being paid). Tyrion gets to marry the lovely Sansa Stark, a much-coveted maiden / heiress bride. Tyrion steps into the role of Hand of the King and does a great job. Tyrion uses his wits to figure out who is spying on him for Cersei. Tyrion steps into the role of Master of Coin and is apparently competent there, too. Tyrion climbs a high ladder, steps over a burning log and obtains a crossbow to kill the most powerful man in Westeros. Tyrion writes a book to teach a (supposed) Targaryen about dragons.

The list can go on and on.

So, yes, if you are thinking in terms of a small person in the real world engaging in armed combat with armor and horses and full-sized opponents, it is hard to imagine that Tyrion has the ability to emerge victorious from a chaotic and physical combat situation. But this is part and parcel of what he does. He reads books, he drinks wine and he masters every situation he encounters.

Why have this forum if we are going to use the answer "its fiction anything can happen " yeah I'm pretty sure everyone is aware. We are discussing how this dosent line up with other stuff in Grrm writing I was asking to see if anyone had a in story explanation. If there was anyone that thought ice and fire was a retelling of real world history I'm sure your answer helped them

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Stannis th3 Mannis said:

Why have this forum if we are going to use the answer "its fiction anything can happen " yeah I'm pretty sure everyone is aware. We are discussing how this dosent line up with other stuff in Grrm writing I was asking to see if anyone had a in story explanation. If there was anyone that thought ice and fire was a retelling of real world history I'm sure your answer helped them

I'm sure it's frustrating when you want other people to read your mind - not to mention following your line of thinking. These pesky forums allow people to speak their own mind and that can get in the way of a person's desire to control responses to a wide-open question.

So now you are saying that the goal of the thread is to discuss why the combat scene with Tyrion "doesn't line up with other stuff in GRRM's writing"? And you would like an in-story explanation?

I don't want to run afoul of your unspoken rules, but maybe the following comment from an earlier thread is on-topic. I find that Tyrion's combat scene at the Green Fork lines up closely with "other stuff" in ASOIAF, however, based on close reading of in-story evidence. If there is anyone who thinks that key scenes in GRRM's writing do not line up with other stuff in his writing, however, I'm sure this answer will not help them.

If you re-read my earlier comment, you will see that I am not arguing that anything can happen in fiction. My point is that GRRM has well-thought-out reasons that Tyrion is victorious at the Green Fork, using alliances and relying on key warriors as well as his own combat efforts and leadership skills. The scene marks a further break between Tywin and Tyrion as the younger man gathers merit badges in a variety of contexts, grows in his autonomous skill and seems to move toward a destiny of leadership in Westeros.

But I will eagerly watch the thread to see if others have in-story explanations that satisfy your narrow and mistaken expectations.

 

Edited by Seams

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OK, here's my attempt at an in-story explanation.  Much as Lord Tywin hated his dwarf son, he would have wanted him to have some minimal skill at arms.  Otherwise he'd have been an easy target for any outlaw or enemy soldier.  If he went down without a fight, he might have brought disgrace to the Lannister name. 

We know that Tyrion had custom-made saddles and armor.  We know that as a child, he became a skilled tumbler, which requires some strength and agility:  enough to jump off a door sill and land on his hands.  Perhaps he also had a master-at-arms, as Arya and Brienne did, who understood that size and strength don't always win the fight, and taught him ways to use his apparent weaknesses to his advantage.

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I think the author wants to show the reader that Fortune, or the Gods, favour him for some reason.

Those moments to me seemed like something that is supposed to be borderline magical, if not through clear agency (like Melisandre for example), but to be understood in that way by the reader. 

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