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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Seriously though. That interview is no different than many of the SSM's we have. It is as solid as it can get.

Am I missing something? Which interview?

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On polygamy: yes, I consider it the most likely option as Lyanna and Rhaegar's marital status. However, I also agree that it was something that was not practised by even Targaryens at that point.

Would Rhaegar care about that, though? Probably not, he was fixated enough on prophecy that he didn't care about Elia's health. And given that Tyrion could find a drunken septon to marry him and Tysha, someone out there is going to marry Rhaegar and Lyanna without asking any further questions. 

This makes Jon an ambiguous heir. Was the marriage valid? Depends who you ask: people will say yes if someone wants to make that claim by force, and no if someone else is actively trying to dispute that claim. It would mean there is no one "true heir", which I think jives with Martin's statements that are critical of some true lost heir archetype, and feeds into the "power resides where men believe it resides" concept.

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Some posters here imagine all sorts of overcomplicated scenarios to avoid just how simple it would be for Rhaegar to wed Lyanna while he was still married to Elia. It could be as simple as:

1. Rhaegar wanted or felt obligated to wed Lyanna for any reason.

Rhaegar need not have set out in early 282 to wed Lyanna or become a polygamist or have new babies. It's possible, but I don't subscribe to theories that Rhaegar set out to find Lyanna for love or prophecy.

I prefer the idea that Rhaegar set out to get out/hide Lyanna from danger he knew was coming at the hands of Aerys/his counsel/his soldiers, because he felt responsible for linking Lyanna and her family to him and his treasonous plots, which Aerys's lickspittles were filling his ears with.

If they spontaneously hooked up at some point after the alleged abduction and she got pregnant, he might have felt obligated because of what would become of Lyanna as an unwed noble woman with a bastard, or perhaps just couldn't stand the idea of fathering a bastard, or any number of reasons.

Rather than something Rhaegar set out ahead of time to do to fulfill prophecy, or satisfy his love, or copy Aenar, Aegon, or Maegor, it could be an extreme solution they pulled out of their asses in an extreme situation, perhaps even after her father and brother were slaughtered by his father, and the entire northern presence south of the Trident was wiped out around them.

Either or both of them could have expressed to the other how nobody had done polygamy in 250 years and had dragons, and how the Martells, Baratheons, and Starks would rage, but still somehow convinced themselves/each other it was the best option. At that point it's just a matter of finding/getting an officiant or ceremony to do it.

2. Rhaegar knew or found an officiant or ceremony to wed him and Lyanna.

There is no shortage of examples of nobles, especially Targaryens, finding officiants to wed them when their families or others would prevent them. It would be absurd to argue Rhaegar couldn't find someone to do it, whether or not they were resistant.

All they needed was the want to wed (for whatever reasons), and the ability to find someone or something to wed them. It's that simple.

Edited by Bael's Bastard
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That they did it doesn't mean it was legal, Cersei could also bang her brother, that doesn't make it legal and or acceptable in Westerosi pov. 

I personally don't care whether they had a marriage or not but the validity of said marriage, nor I'm arguing whether they married or not.

Could it be that they marry just to feel better with themselves and their acts. 

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

An option that would cause a shitstorm, of that I have no doubt, but since a shitstorm was coming, anyway, for making off with Lyanna... why not go for it? It has been argued that people would still see Lyanna as a mere concubine - but without the marriage, she is one, whereas with the marriage, there is a chance that at least some people would acknowledge her status as a second wife.

Indeed! It appears that Rhaegar has cast the dice in hopes his plan to take the throne succeeds. He already doesn't have to worry about the toothless power of the Faith, but he has gambled on winning the rebellion, ousting his father, and placating the Martells. None of that is easy, perhaps, not even likely, but if he had killed Robert at the Trident instead of dying himself he might have pulled it off. And really, after he runs off with Lyanna, what choice does he have? Not many options. If he does win the throne, he can dictate his own terms, including the acceptance of Lyanna as his second wife.

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 It also forces the Starks into the fold - an uncertain second wife is definitely better than a certain concubine for their image :D

Once Aerys kills Rickard and Brandon and demands Ned and Robert's heads, I'd argue that option is almost certainly gone, at least while Aerys is alive. But more importantly, when Rhaegar and Lyanna run off together I believe the plan was likely to remain hidden until the Starks and Robert accept there will be no marriage of Lyanna and Robert. As long as they stay out of either Aerys's control or that of the Starks/Baratheons they have a chance to dictate their own fates. When that included marriage seems an open question to me.

 

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, on the supposed unacceptability of polygamy: let's compare the general notions and people's willingness to take up the custom:

Incest is both forbidden by the Faith AND a social/religious taboo from time immemorial everywhere in Westeros.

 Polygamy is forbidden by the Faith but was previously acceptable in some parts of Westeros (and still is among the Wildlings, i.e. there is not a religious ban on it in the old gods worship). When the option is open, many lords happily hop on the bandwagon.

tl;dr version: :P

the Faith: incest bad, polygamy bad

people and incest: yuck

people and polygamy: oh, king, take my sister/daughter/aunt/cousin/grandma/all of them

The argument that polygamy is unacceptable completely underestimates the power of an absolute monarch. The people of Westeros were not going to get a vote on a second marriage for Rhaegar. The High Lords of the realm don't have veto power on the subject. The only power to stop it is from Aerys, and even he can't dissolve a marriage after it is done. His power is to do exactly what he did do - he held Elia and her children hostage and told Rhaegar he had better come back to King's Landing.

Very good post, Ygrain

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53 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

We know polygamy was perfectly legal and acceptable for Targs to Westerosi. Even the single case that a single High Septon objected to, Maegor's first, could not be overturned by Faith or king. Neither secular nor religious law ever prohibited or criminalized polygamy for Targs. Period.

Except It's not true.

Quote

The wedding was performed on Dragonstone, under the aegis of the Dowager Queen Visenya. As the castle septon refused to officiate, Maegor and his new bride were joined in a Valyrian rite, “wed by blood and fire.” The marriage took place without the leave, knowledge, or presence of King Aenys. When it became known, the two half-brothers quarreled bitterly. Nor was His Grace alone in his wroth. Manfred Hightower, father of Lady Ceryse, made protest to the king, demanding that Lady Alys be put aside. And in the Starry Sept at Oldtown, the High Septon went even further, denouncing Maegor’s marriage as sin and fornication, and calling the prince’s new bride “this whore of Harroway.” No true son or daughter of the Seven would ever bow to such, he thundered.

After the thing was consumated and done in Valyrian tradition the ball was in Aenys's hands but they neither considered it legal and certainly not accepted.

 

Quote

Prince Maegor remained defiant. His father had taken both of his sisters to wife, he pointed out; the strictures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the dragon. No words of King Aenys could heal the wound his brother’s words thus opened, and many pious lords throughout the Seven Kingdoms condemned the marriage, and began to speak openly of “Maegor’s Whore.”

 

Quote

Maegor shocked the realm in 39 AC by announcing that he had taken a second wife—Alys of House Harroway—in secret. He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them. The public outcry was such that Aenys was finally forced to exile his brother.

Following that  logic incest was also accepted, since Murmison married Rhaena and Aegon.

 

Westeros is absolutist but Rhaegar has zero power on his own and sure the  nobles have veto power, Aegon 5 learnt that the easy way, Aerys and Rhaegar learnt that the hardest way possible.

Edited by frenin
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15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

An option that would cause a shitstorm, of that I have no doubt, but since a shitstorm was coming, anyway, for making off with Lyanna... why not go for it? It has been argued that people would still see Lyanna as a mere concubine - but without the marriage, she is one, whereas with the marriage, there is a chance that at least some people would acknowledge her status as a second wife. It also forces the Starks into the fold - an uncertain second wife is definitely better than a certain concubine for their image :D

If that was the intention it obviously didn't work. Because the Starks don't want Lya to be a prince's wife or concubine if said prince is already married.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, on the supposed unacceptability of polygamy: let's compare the general notions and people's willingness to take up the custom:

Incest is both forbidden by the Faith AND a social/religious taboo from time immemorial everywhere in Westeros.

We know why incest for the Targaryens is now seen as an acceptable and normal things for them. Some people, like Dunk, feel uncomfortable with it, but Targaryen incest is normal in Westeros in the Dunk & Egg stories as well as during the series itself. It even was back during Jaehaerys I's reign, show by casual remarks about the impending Vaegon-Daella marriage that fell through.

Polygamy is not normal for the Targaryens. It is something only savages do, people beyond the Wall. It is also not normal for the civilized First Men to do - there are no polygamous Starks around. Polygamy among royalty prior to the Targaryens is only confirmed for First Men kings prior to the Andal conquest in the Stormlands and the Reach - not the North.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Polygamy is forbidden by the Faith but was previously acceptable in some parts of Westeros (and still is among the Wildlings, i.e. there is not a religious ban on it in the old gods worship). When the option is open, many lords happily hop on the bandwagon.

Lords jumped on the bandwagon to throw their women at a polygamous king, never at a polygamous prince. A king has power, a prince doesn't have power (yet) - and Rhaegar had to fear his royal father would disinherit him.

Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel were kings with dragons ... Rhaegar was a prince with a harp.

12 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

It also shouldn't be overlooked that legal status isn't the only aspect of marriage - if they were in love then they may have married for their own sakes, or to be wed in the sight of their gods. Lyanna wasn't even of the Faith, and although weirwoods are rare in the south, it seems any mature tree can substitute for a Heart Tree in a pinch. If Jon was legitimate there is a question about how we will learn of that as the most of the actors and witnesses are long dead,  which comes back to the theory they married before the weirwoods of the Isle of Faces, close to Harrenhal.

Oh, they certainly could have - but such a marriage would be legally irrelevant. If it isn't a public affair, it never happened - like with Cersei's children: As long as Jaime/Cersei don't publicly confess the children are theirs and not Robert's and Cersei's people will continue to believe they are the king's children - because that's how they were introduced and treated throughout their lives.

If nobody but a couple of guys in the middle of nowhere know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then they weren't married in a meaningful way.

It is like with Aemond Targaryen and Alys Rivers - she claims they were married before Aemond died and that their son is the rightful king. But even if that's true - who is going to believe it? If nobody believes it the child won't sit the throne - which it, to our knowledge, never did.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

We don't have such evidence, we have Jorah's desire to bang Dany and doing and saying anything to accomplish that desire, Jorah who is already used to bend the laws and who certainly doesn't care whether polygamy is legal or illegal as much as he doesn't care about the morality of slavery. And even then, Jorah himself makes no connection whatsoever between Dany doing polygamy and the Targs being allowed to do it.

Dany's case is different in the sense that she is Aegon the Conqueror come again with three dragons. She doesn't live in Westeros and can do what she wants without fearing repercussions from the Faith or the lords and people of Westeros ... at least while she isn't in Westeros yet. If she were to take multiple husbands prior to her arrival there - which is possible - we are going to see whether that's going to make her popular or not.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

And one rumour among many about Daemon and Daenerys.

That one is just a rumor so far, and one that is not going to turn out to be true in FaB II because it makes pretty much no sense. Daemon Blackfyre wasn't even a legitimized bastard when his match with Rohanne was arranged - how does it make sense that his father would entertain to grant a bastard son a second wife - and said wife being his own daughter - when (1) he himself never took a second wife (at least not officially, I'd not be surprised if he actually married Megette with the wedding later being dismissed as a mummer's farce) and (2) he hadn't even legitimized Daemon at that point.

That Daemon and Daenerys may have loved each other (or one of them the other) might turn out to be true, and perhaps Daemon himself deluded himself into believing Daeron II would grant him Daenerys' hand in marriage even after he had married Rohanne of Tyrosh, but I doubt that Aegon IV ever promised him something like that.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Except the fact that Polygamy was never made legal and a doctrine of the Faith.

Exceptionalism talks a lot about incest but not once about polygamy.

Yeah, as I keep repeating like a broken record - the marriage concept of the Faith of the Andals is strictly monogamous. Polygamy didn't have to be outlawed, because it was never permitted. Nobody marrying in a sept can take more than one spouse at the same time.

The crucial thing here is that Jaehaerys I did not only condemn polygamy but also not use his Doctrine to justify it - George could have included the example of polygamy in those episodes about the Seven Speakers. We could have seen Gyldayn add polygamy to the many things that set apart the blood of the dragon from lesser men - but we only got the special looks, the dragons, the incest, and the alleged resilience to common diseases.

If Jaehaerys I had cared about exonerating his grandfather's polygamy he could have used his Doctrine to do just that - he could have had his puppet High Septon declare that both Aegon I's and Maegor's many marriages were all valid. But he never did that, nor did he feel the need to do so.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

But they did have their prior influence. Which is why Jaeharys wanted to make sure that an Exceptionalist was made High Septon and that Mattheus never got anywhere near that crown.

The idea that the Faith posed no threat to the Targs completely clash with the lenghts Jaeharys went to get Exceptionalism approved and accepted by all.

You don't need armies to start a war. It's enough to wield enough influence over those who do have armies. That's why Jaeharys wasn't taking any chances with the Starry Sept.

Exactly. This is the point. The Faith of the Andals still wields considerable influence over the minds and hearts of the people. And we see that breaking forth with the Storming of the Dragonpit, for instance.

Not to mention that the Targaryens themselves were made into pious little Andals by their septons and septas. Alyssa Velaryon opposes traditional Targaryen incest after the Faith Militant Uprising, Jaehaerys I and Alysanne were brought up in the Faith like any other noble child, and their children, too. Even while they still had dragons, nobody ever wanted to use them to force through another polygamy thing. It didn't even come up after Saera, and as I laid out above I think we got the Saera episode to explain while there was no polygamy among Jaehaerys I's grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

And why not?? Why would people like Aegon 4 who was bankrupt morally and enjoyed hurting his kin as much as he could never think about do polygamy?? 

He is the most glaring example there, but Egg's children work even better as examples.

Even Rhaegar/Aerys II are good examples against polygamy - for instance, if this had been a viable option, why the hell didn't Tywin suggest Cersei become Rhaegar's second wife after he had married Elia? We do know from firsthand sources that Tywin brought Cersei to court to marry her either to a widowed Rhaegar or young Viserys, but if polygamy was a thing why didn't he try to marry her to Rhaegar while he was married to Elia?

Hell, he could have even tried to make Cersei Aerys II's second wife - the man had a thing for Joanna, and Cersei looks like her. She may have been able to seduce him.

12 hours ago, Mithras said:

Did Rhaegar and Lyanna marry according to any given wedding ceremony?

This answer is either Yes or No. There is no but. It is immaterial how many people would consider that marriage legal, be it a Tywin Lannister or a random Pate from nowhere. It is also immaterial how many vocal readers find that marriage illegal.

If I were not on mobile, I would also give the quote from F&B about Cregan Stark and Sara Snow. He was furious at first when he heard that Sara slept with that Targaryen prince but after hearing that they had a wedding ceremony before the heart tree prior to bedding, he let his rage go.

That isn't the issue. Nobody says Rhaegar and Lya couldn't have been as prude as Cregan Stark, only being happy with a sexual relationship if they had married before. The point being is whether it makes sense that a secret marriage could have political repercussions if rumors about the parentage of other children - Cersei's - do not suddenly change their status.

If Rhaegar/Lyanna never publicly married - or revealed their marriage status later in a way convincing the public it took place - then nobody would have seen Lyanna as Rhaegar's wife - and subsequently also not any child from that union as a royal prince.

Just like Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen remain Robert's children in the eyes of the world until it is actually proven to the people's satisfaction that this isn't the case - and those criteria are not met by great lords claiming this to be the case, obviously.

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8 hours ago, Vaith said:

Would Rhaegar care about that, though? Probably not, he was fixated enough on prophecy that he didn't care about Elia's health. And given that Tyrion could find a drunken septon to marry him and Tysha, someone out there is going to marry Rhaegar and Lyanna without asking any further questions. 

We don't know enough about Rhaegar-Elia to blame him for the two pregnancies. Perhaps she wanted to have children, too? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt there. Having another child after Rhaenys was reckless, though.

If Rhaegar-Lyanna married under false identities I'm not sure whether that would be considered a valid marriage - would depend on Westerosi customs.

If Rhaegar got around a septon by a tree marriage or a Ironborn marriage or a Valyrian marriage, etc. then the validity could also be questioned, as was the marriage of Maegor and Alys Harroway. Like Rhaegar, Maegor was married to Ceryse by the High Septon himself, so him suddenly diverting from that path would be problematic.

I very much doubt that any Targaryen (king) ever married outside a sept, not even Egg and Betha (although Duncan may have, now that I think of it), since the Targaryens do follow the Seven and are even the defenders of the Faith. They should be as able to follow the old gods/do things their way as Catholics are able to run the Anglican Church and become king or queen of the UK.

8 hours ago, Vaith said:

This makes Jon an ambiguous heir. Was the marriage valid? Depends who you ask: people will say yes if someone wants to make that claim by force, and no if someone else is actively trying to dispute that claim. It would mean there is no one "true heir", which I think jives with Martin's statements that are critical of some true lost heir archetype, and feeds into the "power resides where men believe it resides" concept.

Yes, although in Jon's case things are even more complicated than that, depending on how things go:

- If it was a secret marriage, the fact of the marriage, its validity, and the fact that they had a child has to be established to the satisfaction of the people who are supposed to believe it to be true.

- And then they have to buy the story that Jon Snow is the child from that union.

How likely is that if Stannis - who isn't a wetnurse or a crannogman but a great lord and the brother of the late king - cannot convince that his brother's children aren't his brother's children? How convincing/realistic would it be if this worked for Jon Snow but didn't work for Stannis in the very same series?

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I prefer the idea that Rhaegar set out to get out/hide Lyanna from danger he knew was coming at the hands of Aerys/his counsel/his soldiers, because he felt responsible for linking Lyanna and her family to him and his treasonous plots, which Aerys's lickspittles were filling his ears with.

If they spontaneously hooked up at some point after the alleged abduction and she got pregnant, he might have felt obligated because of what would become of Lyanna as an unwed noble woman with a bastard, or perhaps just couldn't stand the idea of fathering a bastard, or any number of reasons.

In light of the fact that many a noblewoman actually did give birth to a bastard (just think of Ashara Dayne) - and that there are ways to abort an unwanted child in this world - I don't find that very likely.

Just as I don't think one can make a case that Lyanna Stark of all people was in danger from the Mad King. She was a woman. Rhaegar himself, Lord Rickard, Brandon, etc. may have been in danger because they might mount a rebellion, but Lyanna Stark was just a girl. And if Aerys II wanted a hostage then why the hell did he kill both Rickard and Brandon? He could have used one of them at least as hostages against Rhaegar, Robert, Ned, etc.

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Indeed! It appears that Rhaegar has cast the dice in hopes his plan to take the throne succeeds. He already doesn't have to worry about the toothless power of the Faith, but he has gambled on winning the rebellion, ousting his father, and placating the Martells. None of that is easy, perhaps, not even likely, but if he had killed Robert at the Trident instead of dying himself he might have pulled it off. And really, after he runs off with Lyanna, what choice does he have? Not many options. If he does win the throne, he can dictate his own terms, including the acceptance of Lyanna as his second wife.

What rebellion? Rhaegar and Lyanna helped to cause the rebellion. The abduction and the wedding afterwards caused it. Rhaegar tried to use Harrenhal to deal with his father's madness, but that happened, and later he has some vague idea for 'changes' after his victory at the Trident.

If Rhaegar kept the Lya marriage a secret during the war there could have been another rebellion after that if he actually tried to push through his polygamy thing then.

Who knows what the Dornish and the Tyrells would have done if they had been forced to accept a polygamous King Rhaegar?

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The argument that polygamy is unacceptable completely underestimates the power of an absolute monarch. The people of Westeros were not going to get a vote on a second marriage for Rhaegar. The High Lords of the realm don't have veto power on the subject. The only power to stop it is from Aerys, and even he can't dissolve a marriage after it is done. His power is to do exactly what he did do - he held Elia and her children hostage and told Rhaegar he had better come back to King's Landing.

Of course marriages can be undone. Tywin shows this with Tyrion and Tysha, and Yandel implies that Aegon V could have also done away with the unwanted marriage of his children.

And of course the lords and the people could not accept this marriage - just like they did back with Maegor's second marriage. It is pretty easy, actually.

They could have refused to accept Rhaegar as king or heir to the Iron Throne (like they did with Duncan Targaryen), they could have refused to acknowledge Lyanna as their queen, they could have decided not to allow their children to succeed, and they could have done away with all of them the way the Poor Fellows resolved the 'Septon Murmison problem'.

How nonexistent secret marriages are can be seen by the second wedding of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. They had a proper first wedding with locals and dragons and Kingsguard as witnesses, but it wasn't enough for the Realm at large. This also confirms that there can be a need to marry two people a second time, meaning a single wedding isn't always enough.

A polygamy marrige is infinitely more controversial than a forbidden monogamous one - there wouldn't be a guarantee that even an big public polygamy marriage would be accepted, but a secret one should be pretty much hopeless.

I mean, what would Rhaegar do if nobody believed or acknowledged his claim that he married Lyanna Stark in secret?

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On 6/28/2020 at 2:26 AM, frenin said:

We don't have such evidence, we have Jorah's desire to bang Dany and doing and saying anything to accomplish that desire, Jorah who is already used to bend the laws and who certainly doesn't care whether polygamy is legal or illegal as much as he doesn't care about the morality of slavery. And even then, Jorah himself makes no connection whatsoever between Dany doing polygamy and the Targs being allowed to do it.

And one rumour among many about Daemon and Daenerys.

You and LV keep using this word but it misses the point entirely. This is not some fan created crazy theory that is whispered in low voices and through covered mouths. This is a clue left purposefully by the author in The World of Ice & Fire. One can argue that it is a false clue, but for what purpose? What we see here is Martin doing what he said he was possibly going to do those many years ago when he said he might create other precedents for polygamy after the already existing precedents of Aegon and Maegor.

But it doesn't really even matter if the version of Daemon's desires for a second wife is true or not. The fact that Martin has an in world source speak to it possibly being true means that there is reason to think that it was possible. It is an accepted view of a historian that it would be possible for Daemon to ask this of his father. That Aegon might have denied such a request, if it happened, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was possible. Unlike the view that polygamy was never a possibility for the Targaryens after Maegor, which has no evidence to support it, this is an actual bit of evidence purposefully written by the author in a in world text that such was not the case, and, yes, it was possible for Daemon to ask for a second wife and have some hope it would be granted.

Combined with Ser Jorah and Daenerys's discussion on the subject, we have two bits of textual evidence that support the claim that the Targaryens thought their practice of polygamous marriages still a possibility hundreds of years after Maegor.

You and LV have every right to disagree with that conclusion based on this evidence, but it is evidence nonetheless. Not conjecture like you two put forward as fact.

On 6/27/2020 at 6:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea is that Jaehaerys I is condemning Maegor in part, not exclusively - I'm sure he also didn't like the fact that the man killed his two older brothers or persecuted him and Alysanne and their mother, etc. -, for taking many wives. This is not something he wishes his daughter or anyone repeat.

We do have an entire scenario and specific quotes which make it clear Jaehaerys I did not want to follow his daughter in the polygamy shoes of Uncle Maegor. That is just a fact.

To counter that there would have to be quotes indicating Jaehaerys I liked polygamy, thought it a viable thing, entertained it, etc.

But there is nothing to be there.

 You have it completely backwards LV. It is on you to support your idea that Jaehaerys was against the continuation of polygamy by Targaryens. I have given you the quotes in question, and there is nothing in them that shows the king had this general aversion to polygamy that you try to state he did. He obviously doesn't approve it in the case Saera suggests, but that is a far cry to being committed to stamping out the practice.

It is instructive to the reader, that as in the case of Daemon and Ser Jorah, that Saera thinks this is even possible. Why? Because she is in denial about her own conduct with the three men in question. She believes her father will just forgive her conduct and marrying them will do away with the problem. BUT SHE BELIEVES THE OPTION EXISTS. Even if this is only on some general theoretical level, the fact she thinks it is possible for her to do tells us that has no belief her father had eliminated the possibility.

Moreover, the quotes in question clearly having Jaehaerys flipping into outrage and anger at the mention of his uncle. He says nothing or thinks nothing about polygamy as it relates to the Conqueror and his sisters. Even though Saera raises them as examples. He has no problem with that bit of Targaryen history, but he does with his daughter using Maegor as an example to follow in any regard. This scene is fundamentally not about  polygamy. It is about Maegor's history of brutality, murder, and treason, and the idea Saera would think to use him as an example for anything. Jaehaerys sees this as a betrayal.

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14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

You and LV keep using this word but it misses the point entirely. This is not some fan created crazy theory that is whispered in low voices and through covered mouths. This is a clue left purposefully by the author in The World of Ice & Fire. One can argue that it is a false clue, but for what purpose? What we see here is Martin doing what he said he was possibly going to do those many years ago when he said he might create other precedents for polygamy after the already existing precedents of Aegon and Maegor.

It's a clue if you are using selective research at 100%, it's a clue because there is quite literally nothing more, so everything that says polygamy becomes automatically a clue that Martin is leaving for the smart readers. And what a precedent that is, an obscure conversation between Aegon and Daemon giving us no context and  invented repeated  by the people that were desperate to offer a justification for their treason. And it's even weirder that while Aegon himself never fell in the polygamy when he apparently had means, motive and opportunity. He would've allowed his bastard to do it.

 

 

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Combined with Ser Jorah and Daenerys's discussion on the subject, we have two bits of textual evidence that support the claim that the Targaryens thought their practice of polygamous marriages still a possibility hundreds of years after Maegor.

Ditto.

Jorah isn't linking Dany doing polygamy with the Targs overall being allowed to do polygamy. He is just saying he wants Dany. Jorah doesn't care about laws, he doesn't care about slavery what makes you think he cares more about polygamy?? 

 

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

But it doesn't really even matter if the version of Daemon's desires for a second wife is true or not. The fact that Martin has an in world source speak to it possibly being true means that there is reason to think that it was possible. It is an accepted view of a historian that it would be possible for Daemon to ask this of his father. That Aegon might have denied such a request, if it happened, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was possible. Unlike the view that polygamy was never a possibility for the Targaryens after Maegor, which has no evidence to support it, this is an actual bit of evidence purposefully written by the author in a in world text that such was not the case, and, yes, it was possible for Daemon to ask for a second wife and have some hope it would be granted.

 Or maybe Daemon asked his father to reintroduce Targ polygamy it's the thing about context, the historian isn't giving credibility to the tale, he is just repeating the rumour he has heard. 

It's not evidence, it's simply you grasping straws  and saying it's an argument because otherwise there is nothing else.

 

I don't what evidence do you want anyway, I pointed the text where it says that neither polygamy nor incest was accepted but for Aegon, there is the point where Jaeharys made his best efforts to make incest accepted and polygamy just vanish through history. Yet people somehow viewed it as a legal option.

Edited by frenin
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Just shows you all aren't arguing in good faith, as you ignore precedent and relevant info for polygamy throughout the books, while completely fabricating a ban on Targ polygamy that literally doesn't exist or get hinted at whatsoever in the books.

In the case of Daemon, this info was presumably written down by a maester closer to Daemon's own time, is passed along by a maester that lived through Summerhall and Robert's Rebellion, and repeated by a contemporary maester to Tommen, all over the last century or so.

As in the case of Maegor, polygamy for Daemon would have just been a means to wed the wife he wanted while already/still married to a first wife. Not everyone wants to just be wed to multiple wives. Maegor was pretty much done with his first wife but couldn't get rid of her. Daemon's desired Daenerys. They didn't just have a polygamy fetish.

Is it plausible Rhaegar thought he could create a legally and religiously binding second marriage, even if he expected massive consequences that he would have to somehow deal with? Absolutely.

Edited by Bael's Bastard
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23 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Just shows you all aren't arguing in good faith, as you ignore precedent and relevant info for polygamy throughout the books, while completely fabricating a ban on Targ polygamy that literally doesn't exist or get hinted at whatsoever in the books.

I find this amusing, every info about polygamy has been touched and discussed here. From Jorah is an evidence about how Targ polygamy is ok to the Targs would be retroactively delegitimizing their own claim if they ever went against polygamy. All those has been discussed and either has been ignored or simply said that it's an ignorant fanfic.

What it's never hinted or said at any time is that polygamy was ever legal. Aegon conquered Westeros while he was a polygamist and made his best efforts to not anger the Faith. Incest and polygamy were fiercely contested afterwards. Only Maegor bended the Faith and he died rather early and Jaeharys made only incest tolerated an accepted with his Exceptionalism and never mentioned the polygamy issue. Polygamy afterwards was never practised even when it would've been politacally convenient or when Aegon 4 could do it. They just didn't feel like it seems.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

In the case of Daemon, this info was presumably written down by a maester closer to Daemon's own time, is passed along by a maester that lived through Summerhall and Robert's Rebellion, and repeated by a contemporary maester to Tommen, all over the last century or so.

And in that case it's said it's a "tale" that some, not even all, of Daemon's men were  making. And all of Daemon's partisans were making different narratives to explain and justify their actions after the war.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Is it plausible Rhaegar thought he could create a legally and religiously binding second marriage, even if he expected massive consequences that he would have to somehow deal with? Absolutely.

I'm not arguing what Rhaegar believed, nor just because Rhaegar believed it means that it was possible. The man tended to be certain about a lot of things. What Rhaegar believed or thought he would get done once he was King is irrelevant, since he never got to be King, I'm arguing the validity of the marriage by itself.

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It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the Faith when only one single High Septon in the history of Westeros actually made an issue of it, and in truth, that crusade was launched directly in response to Rhaena/Aegon incest.

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the the Lords and Kings when the pious Lord Hightower, Storm King, and Queen of the Vale all tried to arrange a third wife for Aegon before the Conquest, and lords and knights tried to arrange another second wife for Aegon after Rhaenys died a decade into Targaryen rule.

And a key part of the Jorah and Dany discussion about multiple husbands that you are conveniently ignoring is the meaning of "the dragon has three heads."

When Daenerys asks Jorah if he knows what it means, he says the Targaryen sigil is a three headed dragon. When she says duh, but there are no three headed dragons, he reminds her that Aegon and his sisters were the three headed dragon, they in fact invented the sigil. This causes Dany to recall Visenya and Rhaenys, and that she is descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and grandson Jaehaerys.

You dismiss it as Jorah just trying to get in Dany's pants, but whatever his motivations, the content of the discussion is true and sound. Whether this is a correct interpretation of any prophecy or not, it is a correct recollection of the founders of her house,  and her direct line in particular. Neither Dany nor Jorah speak of it as if it is a religious or legal transgression for a Targaryen.

It also gives Tywin perhaps his greatest incentive to finally turn on Rhaegar once and for all. After knowing Rhaegar since he was three or four, knowing him for twenty years as Hand, voicing confidence in the King he would be, and spending nearly a decade plotting to wed his daughter to Rhaegar even after he already wed Elia, Rhaegar runs off and takes a second wife and it's still not Cersei? The Lyanna thing was probably gonna piss Tywin off either way, but IMO Rhaegar wedding Lyanna would enrage Tywin above all else. 

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What Rhaegar believed he could do is the only thing that matters when discussing what actions he took and how he justified to himself taking them. Rhaegar grew up in a world steeped in two and a half centuries of Targaryen exceptionalism, and no hint that the Faith or Jaehaerys excluded polygamy from this exceptionalism. He had zero reason to think he as a Targ couldn't wed another wife for legal or religious reasons.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the Faith when only one single High Septon in the history of Westeros actually made an issue of it, and in truth, that crusade was launched directly in response to Rhaena/Aegon incest.

Not to mention, that High Septon would gladly turn blind eyes towards polygamy if it was her niece that became the second wife instead of the first one that got shafted.

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Guys, for the hundredth time:

For us to have good reason to believe polygamy was a thing in the sense that Prince Rhaegar - PRINCE RHAEGAR, and not KING RHAEGAR WHO NEVER WAS! - could get away with we would need at least another precedent for polygamy after Maegor.

And that should be a very specific case - a case where polygamy was not practiced by a dragonriding usurper fighting the Faith and Westeros at large about the issue - as Maegor was and did - but the case of a Targaryen prince, like Rhaegar, who, dragonless, got permission of his royal father or brother, the Faith, the lords, and the Realm at large. A Targaryen prince who practiced polygamy in peace, not causing a scandal in the process of it, etc.

If such a thing had happened - and I wanted to see something like that happening - we could seriously consider that Rhaegar may have had a chance to get through with his polygamy.

But we don't have something like that, do we?

In fact, even if one of Jaehaerys I's princely sons and grandsons had had multiple wives - or some other princes down the line - the case of Rhaegar would still be different because he had a mad father with whom he was at odds even prior to the polygamy thing. The man was considering to disinherit him as a traitor. We do know that princes taking monogamous spouses without permission of the king (Daemon and Laena, for instance) could have major repercussions and lead to exile, meaning the idea that Rhaegar could get away with polygamy against his father's wishes even if there were more recent and well-established precedents for this is not convincing.

For something like that a prince would need the unconditional support of his king.

And, please, guys, stop painting Aegon the Conqueror as this proud polygamist. He loved Rhaenys, he just married Visenya as well because the family tradition insisted that he had to marry the elder sister. His polygamy is a very special one, an incestuous, if you will. He wanted to give both his sisters their due, the one he actually loved and the one he had to marry (possibly also because he didn't want any of the big dragons to end with another family). But unlike Maegor, Aegon never wanted to create a harem of wives. He only married his sisters, not everybody and their grandmother. Which is why, one assumes, he refused the addition of other wives, before, during, and after the Conquest, even after Queen Rhaenys had died and Visenya was beyond her childbearing years.

If he was a determined polygamist he wouldn't have lived 27 years in a monogamous (and quite loveless) marriage with Visenya.

Thus we can make a case that even Aegon the Conqueror was no fan of polygamy - which, one assumes, would also be the reason why he never urged Maegor to take another wife after Ceryse didn't give birth to any children during the first twelve years of their marriage. If polygamy was a thing Aegon the Conqueror liked then one has to answer the question why he didn't take more wives and because neither of his sons dared take a second wife while the Conqueror was still alive. Maegor only thought he could pull shit like that with Aenys in charge, not Aegon I.

And one also should see Maegor's second wife as his attempt to dissolve his first marriage and get a new and only wife in Alys. He cut ties with Ceryse, declared her barren, and abandoned her in favor of Alys. The reason why he couldn't get an annulment would be that she was a Hightower and the niece of the High Septon. But Maegor didn't properly wed Alys Harroway in a sept, but in a savage, overcome Valyrian rite. There is no indication this marriage was accepted by the king, his court, the Faith, or the Realm at large. Maegor's 'polygamous phase', his harem, if you will, only started when he took on Tyanna as a third wife in 42 AC, and continued with the black brides further down the road. But that was when he was a king, no longer a prince.

As for the Daemon thing:

That is in there to sort of explain away the inconsistency in the Osgrey story - that Daenerys loved Daemon, and that they wanted to marry each other, but Daeron II married her to the Prince of Dorne anyway. George didn't get the chronology straight in TSS, not realizing that Daemon would already have been married to the mother of his children when Daenerys' match with Maron Martell was made. Or at least that's how things turned out when Daemon's birth year was settled (I don't know if the story preceded the dates or vice versa).

But this whole thing is just a rumor, not a fact. And a bad rumor I might add because it actually states that a mere bastard who wasn't legitimized yet has to be seen as eligible to take a royal princess as a second wife (it would even have been outrageous to make Daenerys the first and only wife of a bastard!). That is pretty much insane and clashes completely with Aegon IV's own cowardice in the polygamy department ... as well as his general cowardice shown by not directly attacking the Dragonknight but using a patsy, not daring to anger the Prince of Dorne in later life by disinheriting Daeron, not insisting on another Dornish War after the failure with the wooden dragons, etc. When push came to shove the man backed down/took the easier route. He even only dared to legitimize his bastards on his deathbed ... and even then he didn't dare to disinherit Daeron in favor of Daemon (assuming that's what he was entertaining at any point).

And, no, we don't have any indication that the Doctrine of Exceptionalism has been used to justify polygamy nor that it was designed to do this - because its author, Jaehaerys I, explicitly forbid his daughter Princess Saera to practice polygamy.

It makes no sense to pretend the man who forbid his daughter to practice polygamy and forced the Faith to teach that it was okay for the Targaryens to marry their sisters had nothing against polygamy in general.

This isn't a conclusive case, but it sure as hell points the unbiased reader in a certain direction.

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the Faith when only one single High Septon in the history of Westeros actually made an issue of it, and in truth, that crusade was launched directly in response to Rhaena/Aegon incest.

It is disingenious of you to make this statement because you should know the text, especially since I quoted it in the earlier iteration of this thread in length. I'm doing it again, for the benefit of whoever might read this:

Quote

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew, a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. The blood of the dragon must remain pure, the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valyria before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. The old gods were still worshipped in the North and the Drowned God in the Iron Islands, but in the rest of the realm there was a single god with seven faces, and his voice upon this earth was the High Septon of Oldtown. And the doctrines of the Faith, handed down through centuries from Andalos itself, condemned the Valyrian marriage customs as practiced by the Targaryens. Incest was denounced as a vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable. Indeed, many amongst the Most Devout had expected the High Septon to speak out against Aegon and his sisters during the Conquest, and were most displeased when the Father of the Faithful instead counseled Lord Hightower against opposing the Dragon, and even blessed and anointed him at his second coronation.

Familiarity is the father of acceptance, it is said. The High Septon who had crowned Aegon the Conqueror remained the Shepherd of the Faithful until his death in 11 AC, by which time the realm had grown accustomed to the notion of a king with two queens, who were both wives and sisters. King Aegon always took care to honor the Faith, confirming its traditional rights and privileges, exempting its wealth and property from taxation, and affirming that septons, septas, and other servants of the Seven accused of wrongdoing could only be tried by the Faith’s own courts.

The accord between the Faith and the Iron Throne continued all through the reign of Aegon I. From 11 AC to 37 AC, six High Septons wore the crystal crown; His Grace remained on good terms with each of them, calling at the Starry Sept each time he came to Oldtown. Yet the question of incestuous marriage remained, simmering below the courtesies like poison. Whilst the High Septons of King Aegon’s reign never spoke out against the king’s marriage to his sisters, neither did they declare it to be lawful. The humbler members of the Faith—village septons, holy sisters, begging brothers, Poor Fellows—still believed it sinful for brother to lie with sister, or for a man to take two wives.

Aegon the Conqueror had fathered no daughters, however, so these matters did not come to a head at once. The sons of the Dragon had no sisters to marry, so each of them was forced to seek elsewhere for a bride.

[...]

With secrecy finally at an end, the king and his court waited to see how the realm would respond. Jaehaerys had concluded that the violent opposition that had greeted his brother Aegon’s marriage had several causes. Their uncle Maegor’s taking of a second wife in 39 AC, in defiance of both the High Septon and his own brother, King Aenys, had shattered the delicate understanding between the Iron Throne and the Starry Sept, so the marriage of Aegon and Rhaena had been seen as a further outrage. The denunciation thus provoked had lit a fire across the land, and the Swords and Stars had taken up the torches, along with a score of pious lords who feared the gods more than their king. Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena had been little known amongst the smallfolk, and they had begun their progress without dragons (in large part because Aegon was not yet a dragonrider), which left them vulnerable to the mobs that sprung up to attack them in the riverlands.

You go directly against the text here in a number of instances, most notably in your claim that only one High Septon had had an issue with Aegon's marriages - all of the High Septons during Aegon's reign did, they just didn't express them aggressively - and their stance was supported by the view of the Faith at large. You also go directly against the text in stating that the Faith Militant Uprising started 'in direct response to the Aegon-Rhaena marriage' when in fact people in-universe who know better conclude that the latter was seen as 'further outrage', not the original cause of the matter. And Jaehaerys I is correct there - the open conflict with the Faith started with Maegor's second marriage, not the Aegon-Rhaena wedding.

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the the Lords and Kings when the pious Lord Hightower, Storm King, and Queen of the Vale all tried to arrange a third wife for Aegon before the Conquest, and lords and knights tried to arrange another second wife for Aegon after Rhaenys died a decade into Targaryen rule.

That is a straw man on your part. Nobody said that the lords and king fiercely opposed polygamy of their conqueror, Aegon I. I specifically said that Aegon is a special case in the sense that he conquered Westeros as polygamist and people had no choice but to politely ignore that outrage. And ambitious people went with the idea 'if he has two wives, why cannot my daughter/sister be the third of fourth'.

But the issue here is that Aegon (and Maegor later, too) were kings, not princes. Princes cannot do that shit, nor do they inspire the desire of ambitious men to throw more wives at them because they are not kings. They don't have the same power. Even Balerion couldn't protect Maegor from his exile, could he? And if King Aenys hadn't been the weakling that he was Maegor and Visenya and Alys and her father would have died for the thing they pulled.

Instead, the idea is that after Maegor nobody inside or outside House Targaryen would see polygamy as a viable option for a prince - and even a king, after the dragons were gone.

And that's implicitly confirmed by the fact that no Targaryen after Saera ever suggested polygamy as an option, despite the fact that it would resolved dozens of problems the Targaryens faced from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.

If you want to make a case that polygamy was seen as acceptable/viable by the Targaryens themselves you have to explain why nobody wanted to resolve such problems by polygamy - why it didn't even come up as a theoretical option.

55 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It also gives Tywin perhaps his greatest incentive to finally turn on Rhaegar once and for all. After knowing Rhaegar since he was three or four, knowing him for twenty years as Hand, voicing confidence in the King he would be, and spending nearly a decade plotting to wed his daughter to Rhaegar even after he already wed Elia, Rhaegar runs off and takes a second wife and it's still not Cersei? The Lyanna thing was probably gonna piss Tywin off either way, but IMO Rhaegar wedding Lyanna would enrage Tywin above all else. 

That seems to make no sense even in your own argument. Couldn't Tywin easily enough have made Cersei Rhaegar's third wife in this scenario, if the Lya match had been accepted? After all, you yourself point out that the lords and kings didn't see any problems throwing wives at Aegon I. Why shouldn't Tywin insist Rhaegar make Cersei his third wife?

The actual problem here, as I pointed out before, is why the hell Tywin didn't make Cersei Rhaegar's second wife while he was already married to Elia but before he ran away. And why he didn't set up Cersei to become Aerys II's second wife - she looks like Joanna, so this could have worked better than a Rhaegar match.

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