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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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For the time being, the winning position is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in some fashion.

No one exactly knows what GRRM will do with Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy.

No one exactly knows how the characters in the story will react to Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy (if it ever becomes public knowledge).

LV might feel authorized to speak in the name of us or the characters inside the story about the stuff that is still unwritten, by typing things like "nobody would do this" or "nobody would believe that" etc. Thank you but no. I am allowed to have my own opinions about the things I read in the books. If there was a marriage, then it is done for me. If LV can't handle that, or if any character inside the story will have a problem with that (if it ever becomes public knowledge), too bad for them. It is their problem, not mine. 

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, for the hundredth time:

For us to have good reason to believe polygamy was a thing in the sense that Prince Rhaegar - PRINCE RHAEGAR, and not KING RHAEGAR WHO NEVER WAS! - could get away with we would need at least another precedent for polygamy after Maegor.

And that should be a very specific case - a case where polygamy was not practiced by a dragonriding usurper fighting the Faith and Westeros at large about the issue - as Maegor was and did - but the case of a Targaryen prince, like Rhaegar, who, dragonless, got permission of his royal father or brother, the Faith, the lords, and the Realm at large. A Targaryen prince who practiced polygamy in peace, not causing a scandal in the process of it, etc.

If such a thing had happened - and I wanted to see something like that happening - we could seriously consider that Rhaegar may have had a chance to get through with his polygamy.

But we don't have something like that, do we?

In fact, even if one of Jaehaerys I's princely sons and grandsons had had multiple wives - or some other princes down the line - the case of Rhaegar would still be different because he had a mad father with whom he was at odds even prior to the polygamy thing. The man was considering to disinherit him as a traitor. We do know that princes taking monogamous spouses without permission of the king (Daemon and Laena, for instance) could have major repercussions and lead to exile, meaning the idea that Rhaegar could get away with polygamy against his father's wishes even if there were more recent and well-established precedents for this is not convincing.

For something like that a prince would need the unconditional support of his king.

And, please, guys, stop painting Aegon the Conqueror as this proud polygamist. He loved Rhaenys, he just married Visenya as well because the family tradition insisted that he had to marry the elder sister. His polygamy is a very special one, an incestuous, if you will. He wanted to give both his sisters their due, the one he actually loved and the one he had to marry (possibly also because he didn't want any of the big dragons to end with another family). But unlike Maegor, Aegon never wanted to create a harem of wives. He only married his sisters, not everybody and their grandmother. Which is why, one assumes, he refused the addition of other wives, before, during, and after the Conquest, even after Queen Rhaenys had died and Visenya was beyond her childbearing years.

If he was a determined polygamist he wouldn't have lived 27 years in a monogamous (and quite loveless) marriage with Visenya.

Thus we can make a case that even Aegon the Conqueror was no fan of polygamy - which, one assumes, would also be the reason why he never urged Maegor to take another wife after Ceryse didn't give birth to any children during the first twelve years of their marriage. If polygamy was a thing Aegon the Conqueror liked then one has to answer the question why he didn't take more wives and because neither of his sons dared take a second wife while the Conqueror was still alive. Maegor only thought he could pull shit like that with Aenys in charge, not Aegon I.

And one also should see Maegor's second wife as his attempt to dissolve his first marriage and get a new and only wife in Alys. He cut ties with Ceryse, declared her barren, and abandoned her in favor of Alys. The reason why he couldn't get an annulment would be that she was a Hightower and the niece of the High Septon. But Maegor didn't properly wed Alys Harroway in a sept, but in a savage, overcome Valyrian rite. There is no indication this marriage was accepted by the king, his court, the Faith, or the Realm at large. Maegor's 'polygamous phase', his harem, if you will, only started when he took on Tyanna as a third wife in 42 AC, and continued with the black brides further down the road. But that was when he was a king, no longer a prince.

As for the Daemon thing:

That is in there to sort of explain away the inconsistency in the Osgrey story - that Daenerys loved Daemon, and that they wanted to marry each other, but Daeron II married her to the Prince of Dorne anyway. George didn't get the chronology straight in TSS, not realizing that Daemon would already have been married to the mother of his children when Daenerys' match with Maron Martell was made. Or at least that's how things turned out when Daemon's birth year was settled (I don't know if the story preceded the dates or vice versa).

But this whole thing is just a rumor, not a fact. And a bad rumor I might add because it actually states that a mere bastard who wasn't legitimized yet has to be seen as eligible to take a royal princess as a second wife (it would even have been outrageous to make Daenerys the first and only wife of a bastard!). That is pretty much insane and clashes completely with Aegon IV's own cowardice in the polygamy department ... as well as his general cowardice shown by not directly attacking the Dragonknight but using a patsy, not daring to anger the Prince of Dorne in later life by disinheriting Daeron, not insisting on another Dornish War after the failure with the wooden dragons, etc. When push came to shove the man backed down/took the easier route. He even only dared to legitimize his bastards on his deathbed ... and even then he didn't dare to disinherit Daeron in favor of Daemon (assuming that's what he was entertaining at any point).

And, no, we don't have any indication that the Doctrine of Exceptionalism has been used to justify polygamy nor that it was designed to do this - because its author, Jaehaerys I, explicitly forbid his daughter Princess Saera to practice polygamy.

It makes no sense to pretend the man who forbid his daughter to practice polygamy and forced the Faith to teach that it was okay for the Targaryens to marry their sisters had nothing against polygamy in general.

This isn't a conclusive case, but it sure as hell points the unbiased reader in a certain direction.

It is disingenious of you to make this statement because you should know the text, especially since I quoted it in the earlier iteration of this thread in length. I'm doing it again, for the benefit of whoever might read this:

You go directly against the text here in a number of instances, most notably in your claim that only one High Septon had had an issue with Aegon's marriages - all of the High Septons during Aegon's reign did, they just didn't express them aggressively - and their stance was supported by the view of the Faith at large. You also go directly against the text in stating that the Faith Militant Uprising started 'in direct response to the Aegon-Rhaena marriage' when in fact people in-universe who know better conclude that the latter was seen as 'further outrage', not the original cause of the matter. And Jaehaerys I is correct there - the open conflict with the Faith started with Maegor's second marriage, not the Aegon-Rhaena wedding.

That is a straw man on your part. Nobody said that the lords and king fiercely opposed polygamy of their conqueror, Aegon I. I specifically said that Aegon is a special case in the sense that he conquered Westeros as polygamist and people had no choice but to politely ignore that outrage. And ambitious people went with the idea 'if he has two wives, why cannot my daughter/sister be the third of fourth'.

But the issue here is that Aegon (and Maegor later, too) were kings, not princes. Princes cannot do that shit, nor do they inspire the desire of ambitious men to throw more wives at them because they are not kings. They don't have the same power. Even Balerion couldn't protect Maegor from his exile, could he? And if King Aenys hadn't been the weakling that he was Maegor and Visenya and Alys and her father would have died for the thing they pulled.

Instead, the idea is that after Maegor nobody inside or outside House Targaryen would see polygamy as a viable option for a prince - and even a king, after the dragons were gone.

And that's implicitly confirmed by the fact that no Targaryen after Saera ever suggested polygamy as an option, despite the fact that it would resolved dozens of problems the Targaryens faced from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.

If you want to make a case that polygamy was seen as acceptable/viable by the Targaryens themselves you have to explain why nobody wanted to resolve such problems by polygamy - why it didn't even come up as a theoretical option.

That seems to make no sense even in your own argument. Couldn't Tywin easily enough have made Cersei Rhaegar's third wife in this scenario, if the Lya match had been accepted? After all, you yourself point out that the lords and kings didn't see any problems throwing wives at Aegon I. Why shouldn't Tywin insist Rhaegar make Cersei his third wife?

The actual problem here, as I pointed out before, is why the hell Tywin didn't make Cersei Rhaegar's second wife while he was already married to Elia but before he ran away. And why he didn't set up Cersei to become Aerys II's second wife - she looks like Joanna, so this could have worked better than a Rhaegar match.

A bunch of long winded bullshit you've already spewed over and over, which has no more support from the books this time than it did every other time. Maybe spend less time creating fan fiction and more time actually reading the books.

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the Faith when only one single High Septon in the history of Westeros actually made an issue of it, and in truth, that crusade was launched directly in response to Rhaena/Aegon incest.

How many times the issue of polygamy arose bar during the tenure of that single High Septon?? How polygamy got to stop being practised if it was a one weirdo thing?? It seems highly odd that polygamy would be banned  in such circumstances.

We're told that polygamy is forbidden by the Faith. 

The outcry of the Faith and Westeros was what made Aenys to exile his brother. We're told that Alys was being whore instead of wife...

 

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

Not to mention, that High Septon would gladly turn blind eyes towards polygamy if it was her niece that became the second wife instead of the first one that got shafted.

How do you get to that conclusion?? 

 

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It's disingenuous to claim polygamy was an issue fiercely contested by the the Lords and Kings when the pious Lord Hightower, Storm King, and Queen of the Vale all tried to arrange a third wife for Aegon before the Conquest, and lords and knights tried to arrange another second wife for Aegon after Rhaenys died a decade into Targaryen rule.

Aegon was already married by then and there was little they could do about it and they were either trying to save their necks or trying to promote themselves when Aegon was already installed.

If people were fine with polygamy, Maegor wouldn't have been ousted, nor Alys would be called a whore.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

And a key part of the Jorah and Dany discussion about multiple husbands that you are conveniently ignoring is the meaning of "the dragon has three heads." 

When Daenerys asks Jorah if he knows what it means, he says the Targaryen sigil is a three headed dragon. When she says duh, but there are no three headed dragons, he reminds her that Aegon and his sisters were the three headed dragon, they in fact invented the sigil. This causes Dany to recall Visenya and Rhaenys, and that she is descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and grandson Jaehaerys.

You dismiss it as Jorah just trying to get in Dany's pants, but whatever his motivations, the content of the discussion is true and sound. Whether this is a correct interpretation of any prophecy or not, it is a correct recollection of the founders of her house,  and her direct line in particular. Neither Dany nor Jorah speak of it as if it is a religious or legal transgression for a Targaryen.

The Dragon has three heads are words Dany heard in her vision and Jorah, surprise surprise, is using that to try and get Dany.

What Jorah doesn't say and or imply is "marry me because Targs are allowed to be poligamist". It's a big leap of logic concluding from Jorah's words that Targ polygamy is ok.

That without forgetting the fact that Jorah doesn't give a damn about laws and legality. Jorah is a slaver and a unrepentant one he rarely if at all speaks about slavery as a crime and he fully knows it is a crime in Westeros, why would he care about legality when he clearly wants to bang Dany and is using whatever he can to achieve that...

Dany doesn't know about Westerosi legality either.

 

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It also gives Tywin perhaps his greatest incentive to finally turn on Rhaegar once and for all. After knowing Rhaegar since he was three or four, knowing him for twenty years as Hand, voicing confidence in the King he would be, and spending nearly a decade plotting to wed his daughter to Rhaegar even after he already wed Elia, Rhaegar runs off and takes a second wife and it's still not Cersei? The Lyanna thing was probably gonna piss Tywin off either way, but IMO Rhaegar wedding Lyanna would enrage Tywin above all else. 

Tywin didn't turn on Rhaegar particularly, he turn on the Targs. In fact if Rhaegar suspected Tywin was going to be pissed with his stunt... With what support was he counting to oust his father?? Ousting Aerys after pissing off his greatest allies/the ones who disliked Aerys more would've been impossible.

 

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What Rhaegar believed he could do is the only thing that matters when discussing what actions he took and how he justified to himself taking them. Rhaegar grew up in a world steeped in two and a half centuries of Targaryen exceptionalism, and no hint that the Faith or Jaehaerys excluded polygamy from this exceptionalism. He had zero reason to think he as a Targ couldn't wed another wife for legal or religious reasons

And here you were talking about bad faith, i won't bother looking for the quotes again, they have been already shown.  Exceptionalism never, not once, addresses the polygamy issue, it's just Targ incest. And the Faith only accepted incest.

I never argued whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or not, or whether Rhaegar thought he could pull that off and Doran would relent, and the Starks and Robert etc etc. I'm arguing the validity of said marriage, what Rhaegar was certain about is irrelevant, he also believed he was going to win the war and made his great plans reality. 

 

Edited by frenin
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You guys crack me up.

Quote

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End.  “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.”

Quote

“Now sweet Neddard, I’ll see you in a bit,  I’m going to make a Rhaegar sandwich with Elia.  But we’re gonna make it all legal first, with sum of that Targaryen Puligomy”

 

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Rhaegar runs off and takes a second wife and it's still not Cersei?

Yeah, that must have hit a nerve :D Had Rhaegar offered to take Cersei as a third wife, I bet Tywin would be the loyalest of the Targ loyalists :D

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Not to mention, that High Septon would gladly turn blind eyes towards polygamy if it was her niece that became the second wife instead of the first one that got shafted.

What, you suspect the holy man of not being impartial, just because his niece was the "damaged" party? :o

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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

“Now sweet Neddard, I’ll see you in a bit,  I’m going to make a Rhaegar sandwich with Elia.  But we’re gonna make it all legal first, with sum of that Targaryen Puligomy”

Still counts as one bed, though...

Plus, Robert sleeping with gods know how many other women is really not the same as a polygamous marriage with just two beds, out of which one is highly likely never to be visited again as a third pregnancy might have killed Elia. Meaning, Lyanna would be getting what she wanted - Rhaegar keeping to one bed. Hers.

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9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Point? You think a 12-13 year old girl isn't capable of being a hypocrite, or changing her mind over time or based on her changing reality or other factors, or having completely different feelings or opinions about two different men?

I think this is the fan fiction of a 13 year old girl.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

, out of which one is highly likely never to be visited again as a third pregnancy might have killed Elia.

Moon tea is a thing in Westeros and seems foolproof. Not really know how it counts as one bed but then again...

 

@Frey family reunionreunion

Lyanna's thoughts on Robert don't have to be the same as the one she had on Rhaegar, she can change her opinion or simply liked Rhaegar more than any morals she might have. 

Edited by frenin
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32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Moon tea is a thing in Westeros and seems foolproof. Not really know how it counts as one bed but then again...

It is one bed if Rhaegar doesn't sleep with Elia any more (or if it is a threesome :D )

Also: Elia cannot birth the third dragon head and Rhaegar doesn't love her, why would he feel compelled to sleep with her?

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

It is one bed if Rhaegar doesn't sleep with Elia any more (or if it is a threesome :D )

Also: Elia cannot birth the third dragon head and Rhaegar doesn't love her, why would he feel compelled to sleep with her?

Maybe because he'd feel like it, lack of love doesn't mean  lack of desire and nothing we know about their relationship hint repulsion. So, it isn't really one bed. It's two and Rhaegar making the call at any time he wants.

 

Edited by frenin
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4 hours ago, Mithras said:

For the time being, the winning position is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in some fashion.

No one exactly knows what GRRM will do with Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy.

No one exactly knows how the characters in the story will react to Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy (if it ever becomes public knowledge).

LV might feel authorized to speak in the name of us or the characters inside the story about the stuff that is still unwritten, by typing things like "nobody would do this" or "nobody would believe that" etc. Thank you but no. I am allowed to have my own opinions about the things I read in the books. If there was a marriage, then it is done for me. If LV can't handle that, or if any character inside the story will have a problem with that (if it ever becomes public knowledge), too bad for them. It is their problem, not mine. 

I agree with all of this except the assertion that R+L married being the winning position. There isn't a single word of canon text that supports them marrying, in any fashion.

Edited by QhorinQuarterhand
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1 hour ago, frenin said:

Moon tea is a thing in Westeros and seems foolproof. Not really know how it counts as one bed but then again...

 

@Frey family reunionreunion

Lyanna's thoughts on Robert don't have to be the same as the one she had on Rhaegar, she can change her opinion or simply liked Rhaegar more than any morals she might have. 

Lyanna could have also come to love Robert before her disappearance. 

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On 6/28/2020 at 5:18 AM, Mithras said:

 

George never did anything but smile. If he even did that. Since this isn't George's words. It's D&Ds. The name Lyanna was never even mentioned. George DID NOT confirm that Lyanna is Jon's mother. Just because they went that way in the show doesn't mean Lyanna is Jon's mother in the books. 

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10 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Lyanna could have also come to love Robert before her disappearance. 

Doubtful but weirdest things have happened. But the very core of the hypothesis discussed now is that she felt nothing for Robert and was crazy in love with Rhaegar.

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Doubtful but weirdest things have happened. But the very core of the hypothesis discussed now is that she felt nothing for Robert and was crazy in love with Rhaegar.

But why is it doubtful? She can change her mind on men who keep to more than one bed but only if that means she changed it for Rhaegar? Not Robert? 

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1 minute ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

But why is it doubtful? She can change her mind on men who keep to more than one bed but only if that means she changed it for Rhaegar? Not Robert? 

Because nothing we are told imply any change of heart. The only thing we're told about Lyanna and Robert is her concern about his womanizing behaviour, Ned doesn't imply anything new either.

 

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