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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 My guess is Rhaegar was more concerned about that than he was creating a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Caring about the child's legitimacy =/=having only succession in mind. There are two other possible reasons why he might have wanted Lyanna's child to be legitimate:

1) the three dragon heads: there were four Targaryen siblings, but Orys didn't count. We from our current-day perspective would say that legalities don't matter, only blood and genes, but that would hardly be the mindset of someone raised in the Westerosi society. Therefore, if Rhaegar thought he needed three children to fulfill the prophecy, he would need the third child to be legitimate.

2) Lyanna's honour: you should marry the woman you want to sleep with, or else you're dishonoring her. Birthing a bastard is an even greater dishonor to her. If you love her, you shouldn't bring this on her, at least if you are a man of honour, which Rhaegar supposedly was.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But who’s going to believe the Crannogman?

Sigh. I have adressed this in the previous post. Howland's word itself wouldn't be enough, of course, but there can be supportive... methods. Symbols. Hidden proofs.

 

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 The bigots in the South or the people in the North, who have specifically rejected the idea of a Targaryen rule.  

Incorrect, and I had quoted it. They didn't reject the Targs, they rejected Aerys. Robert's claim to the throne was based on his Targ ancestry.

 

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well sure if Jon rode a dragon...  But then again if you ride a dragon who cares about the legality of his birth status anymore?

Because it is a widely spread belief that only Targaryens can ride dragons.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So do you believe that Jon would only help fight the Others if the North made him a king on the Iron Throne?

WUT?!

I'm saying that if Jon is offered the throne of the North, he will take it, vows or not, because it will enable him to defend the realms of men more effectively. The same applies to the IT.

 

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for marrying the dragons, you make it sound like it was a consensual marriage.  Far from it.  The North, through Torrhen Stark submitted to avoid the fate of House Gardner.  And certainly the North renounced the Targaryens when the Targaryens tortured and killed their lord and first born son, whether or not they had doubts about Lyanna’s abduction.  

See above - Robert's claim of conqueror was supported by his Targaryen blood.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 I’m not sure Jon’s “Legitimacy” through a descent from King Aerys would sit too well with the Northerners.  Especially when that legitimacy would rise out of a polygamous marriage which the North, like the South, does not seem to endorse.  

I'm pretty sure that the North wouldn't give two shits about a Rhaegar's offspring by a Southerner. The son of Lyanna Stark  might actually have some appeal for them.

Also: the North doesn't bow to the Faith's doctrine, and I yet have to hear that the old gods consider polygamy a sin. The Wildings do not seem to think so. And if the marriage vows were exchanged before a heart tree... as they say, once you say the words, you are in.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There has been a lot of debate about whether Westeros accepts the idea of Targaryens having polygamous relations among themselves, but there hasn’t been a lot of talk about whether Westeros, and specifically the North in this case, would extend this acceptance to a Winterfell maiden being made a part of this practice.

Have you forgotten about the part where various lords were offering their female relatives for polygamous marriages? As for the rest, see above.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And where has it ever been written that Jon wants to be the King of Westeros?

See above, multiple times already

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 That his identity is tied into this fictional title? 

His identity is tied to being The Ned's son, and a bastard. Finding out that he is not a bastard but losing Ned as the father, will shatter him.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This whole arc becomes meaningless if Jon just up and forgets Winterfell and sits himself on the Iron Throne.   

His arc is learning to do what he must, not what he wants. If saving the realm means sitting the IT and losing Winterfell, then that's what he must needs to.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But that’s the point of this.  If Jon’s main concern was defense against the Others than he would stay as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.  After all wasn’t this the main part of his Oath, to defend the realm against the Others?  You don’t need to be the King to do that.  

FFS, of course you don't NEED to be king for that, but don't you realize that as a king, you can order people to do what needs to be done and they will obey, instead of arguing and pleading with them to do the sensible thing?

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This goes into the crux of Jon’s conflict.  He knows he has a duty to the realm by staying with the Night’s Watch.  But he also has this personal connection to Winterfell that makes it hard for him to keep is Oath.  He almost broke the Oath to ride out and support Robb in his war.  He almost allowed himself to be tempted by Stannis to get him out of his Oath by the promise of making him Lord of Winterfell.  He did decide to break his oath when he received the Pink Letter which goaded him into marching to Winterfell to free it and his sister from Ramsay Bolton.

It’s taken George five books to set up this dynamic.  It’s doubtful that in two (or one?) books Jon’s story arc is suddenly going to veer into an entirely new direction.

But it's the SAME direction, the SAME motivation - sure he cannot leave his sister in Boltons' clutches, but the matter is not just about family ties, it's also about the Boltons ruling the North through fArya and representing a threat to the purpose of the Watch. Sooner or later, he would have to deal with the Boltons, anyway, because he has cast his lot with Stannis.

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 He knows he has a duty to the realm by staying with the Night’s Watch.

No. Just like he was fulfilling his duty by marching with the Wildlings and sleeping with Ygritte. You don't need to be part of the Watch to fulfill the purpose of the Watch.

 

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Amusingly, even as a noble bastard Jon begins the story relatively entitled. He rolled up to the NW expecting to run the place, probably not worlds different than Raymar Royce did. Even as a half noble bastard he was like that.

Yet that's not the Jon we know now, and not a Jon we are ever likely going to see again, whether or not he or anyone else ever learns he is a royal bastard or the legitimate product of a royal marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

What makes you think Jon went to the NW expecting to run the place?

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6 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

What makes you think Jon went to the NW expecting to run the place?

I don't mean expecting to become LC. But he goes into the NW with the expectation that he would attain a place of honor, and expecting to be able to go ranging before he's earned anything. It doesn't make him a bad guy or anything, it's just something that he has grown out of with experience and knowledge.

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16 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GRRM explicitly said they correctly guessed the mother. As shitty as their adaptation was, it would be delusional to think they invented a different mother for Jon in the show.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

The show is not the books. No matter how hard you want us to squint.

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2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't mean expecting to become LC. But he goes into the NW with the expectation that he would attain a place of honor, and expecting to be able to go ranging before he's earned anything. It doesn't make him a bad guy or anything, it's just something that he has grown out of with experience and knowledge.

Of course he wanted to go with Benjen. But couldn't that have been a desire to go with his uncle? Not from a feeling he deserved special treatment? 

Not sure what supports Jon expecting to obtain a place of honor either. But mayhaps my memory is failing me.

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If Jon is a legitimate Targaryen, doesn't that make his Night's Watch vows to be void? Because, if he is a Targaryen, then Old Gods are not his gods, and thus he isn't obligated to stick to his vows given to them. His God is R'hllor - deity of Asshai, Azor Ahai, Valyrians and dragons, so Jon belongs to R'hllor, and other gods have no right to claim him into their service. Or it doesn't work like that?

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Sorry to butt in, and having not read all the posts, but it seems to me whether Rhaegar married Lyanna, which he could have - what's stopping him?-, does not necessarily translate to Jon being the legitimate heir. That will depend on how people see that marriage, and the circunstances that could affect their opinion. I believe in RLJ and I'm okay with a Rhaegar and Lyanna marriage, but I think some are working backwards from the assumption that the RLJ revelation will necessarily lead to Jon automatically becoming a recognized heir or even king. Not necessarily. We don't know where the information will be coming from, in what circunstances, or how it will impact Jon, his decisions, and other characters'. I mean, at the end of the day, Jon could discover his parentage, go fight in the war, and die, without it ever leading to any ''the rightful king returns'' scenario.

That said, even if polygamy is considered unpopular and sinful I think that people - the kingmakers and so forth - could still consider R+L's marriage a legitimate marriage. Especially if the powers that be at that time is Dany and she will have a strong reason to want Jon to be a legitimate Targaryen - or even legally recognize his parents marriage? But I sincerely think the polygamy just over-complicates things. He could just be a bastard, and then legitimized (or not). Just my two cents. :)

Oh btw I have a little question (that I'm sure has been debated before in this gigantic thread): won't the RLJ revelation need some kind of proof? Imagine someone says ''I was there, I saw Lyanna giving birth to Jon and Rhaegar was his father'', which yes ok, but why would people just believe this person, even if they know they were there? After all, Stannis could say Cersei's kids were her brother's but without proof, he wasn't in a strong position...(and in that case I guess there was physical proof but only Ned discovered that through the book; still some still don't believe it.....until things go wrong for the Lannisters). Now this has gotten me thinking that it's possible no one, or only a few, will believe in RLJ....interesting parallel there with Young Griff. Maybe these revelations and secrets won't matter as much as we're thinking, or in the scenarios we're devising.

(Sorry for the essay)

Edited by Lady Anna
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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

If Jon is a legitimate Targaryen, doesn't that make his Night's Watch vows to be void? Because, if he is a Targaryen, then Old Gods are not his gods, and thus he isn't obligated to stick to his vows given to them. His God is R'hllor - deity of Asshai, Azor Ahai, Valyrians and dragons, so Jon belongs to R'hllor, and other gods have no right to claim him into their service. Or it doesn't work like that?

I don't think there are any legal loopholes that get you out of your vows.  And your decision who to worship, isn't a genetic one.

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Just now, Megorova said:

If Jon is a legitimate Targaryen, doesn't that make his Night's Watch vows to be void? Because, if he is a Targaryen, then Old Gods are not his gods, and thus he isn't obligated to stick to his vows given to them. His God is R'hllor - deity of Asshai, Azor Ahai, Valyrians and dragons, so Jon belongs to R'hllor, and other gods have no right to claim him into their service. Or it doesn't work like that?

No, It doesn't work like that. People freely choose their religion. 

 

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Jon Connington has just resurfaced in the story and with a POV to boot, so I imagine that if there was a wedding, he might have been there to witness it. So it's not just Howland Reed who knows things. I think different people have different pieces of the story. 

This whole marriage situation reminds me a lot of Robb's will. Robb decided to name Jon his heir. As king he could erase Jon's bastardy and make him a Stark. And as it stands right now in the story, Jon has an older brother who happens to be with Jon Connington, and who can do the exact same thing that Robb did. Aegon can recognize him as his trueborn half-brother if Lyanna and Rhaegar were indeed married or he can decide to legitimize him. 

ETA - 

At the end of the day, it's all about perception. Joffrey was a bastard sitting the Iron Throne and now it's Tommen, and they all knew. Pycelle knew. Littlefinger knew. Varys knew. Stannis found out. Olenna believes the letter, Margaery hints she knows. Kevan Lannister practically confirmed that what Stannis said was true. It didn't stop Mace Tyrell from marrying his daughter off to both Joff and Tommen, did it?

If Rhaegar was married to Lyanna, we know he was intent on making changes once he came back from the Trident. He could have forced the High Septon into accepting the marriage. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
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41 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

The show is not the books. No matter how hard you want us to squint.

So do you think George is lying? Why would he lie to the people adapting his work, fellow creators/colleagues, and then to the readers?

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

1) the three dragon heads: there were four Targaryen siblings, but Orys didn't count. We from our current-day perspective would say that legalities don't matter, only blood and genes, but that would hardly be the mindset of someone raised in the Westerosi society. Therefore, if Rhaegar thought he needed three children to fulfill the prophecy, he would need the third child to be legitimate.

2) Lyanna's honour: you should marry the woman you want to sleep with, or else you're dishonoring her. Birthing a bastard is an even greater dishonor to her. If you love her, you shouldn't bring this on her, at least if you are a man of honour, which Rhaegar supposedly was.

Well certainly a lot of people in this thread seem very concerned about the fundamental importance of a legal "legitimacy".  Don't really have any evidence that Rhaegar would or would not, so I suppose one could argue either way about that.  

I would point out that a lot of the ancient mythologies that ASOIAF seem to homage never gave a rat's ass about whether their heroes or kings were legitimate or not.  After all King Arthur was the illegitimate son of a King (and technically the offspring of a non consensual act), yet that didn't prevent him from drawing the sword from the stone.

As for Lyanna's "honor", we're really starting to finely parse that definition aren't we?  I mean hiding a minor from her family and marrying her into a polygamous relationship is starting to stretch the definition of keeping things above board.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'm pretty sure that the North wouldn't give two shits about a Rhaegar's offspring by a Southerner. The son of Lyanna Stark  might actually have some appeal for them.

Also: the North doesn't bow to the Faith's doctrine, and I yet have to hear that the old gods consider polygamy a sin. The Wildings do not seem to think so. And if the marriage vows were exchanged before a heart tree... as they say, once you say the words, you are in.

Yes, they wouldn't give two shits about Rhaaegar's offspring by a Southerner.  Not sure that they would give two shits about Rhaegar's offspring with Lyanna, especially if they believe that offspring was born of a rape.  Not sure what they would think of the offspring if they thought Lyanna consensually joined some weird cult and entered into a polygamous relationship with the cult leader.  Which is kind of what this theory suggests.  Anytime you pick up your bride to be with six of your best buddies, things seem a little suspect.

We know for a fact that Northerner's believe that incest is an abomination.  Not sure we're ever given an example of a polygamous Northern relationship.  Not sure about the Wildlings.   Craster's incest is definitely considered a no no by the Wildlings.  I don't know what the Wildlings think of his polygamy.

 

Edited by Frey family reunion
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@Frey family reunion:

We have no reason to believe that the Northmen even know the concept of polygamy, much less ever practiced or accepted it since the only polygamous First Men kings we know about are Garland the Bridegroom Gardener of the Reach and Ronard Storm the Bastard of the Stormlands, but we do know that the wildlings beyond the Wall can keep as many wives as they want (which seems to be another way to depict their savage customs compared to how things are in the Seven Kingdoms). The example there is not only Craster (who can do whatever the hell he wants on his own land even if it goes against the customs of the free folk) but also that Ygon Oldfather fellow who shows up in ADwD. That guy has eighteen wives, half of them stolen on raids.

If Jon Snow were to ever emulate that shit he could just as well stay dead...

How the Starks viewed polygamy can be seen by how they reacted to the Lyanna issue. They clearly were not happy with a married man making advances toward their daughter/sister ... and we don't know whether this was only because she was already betrothed or because they suspected Prince Rhaegar wanted to make her his mistress. It could also mean/indicate they would never concede or allow or suffer the prospect of Lyanna becoming the second wife of anyone, be he lord or prince or king.

After all, we cannot rule out that Brandon and Ned knew more about what happened between Lya and Rhaegar at Harrenhal than we believe they knew. They could have been approached by Rhaegar with a proposal to make Lyanna his second wife then and there. If Rhaegar ever contemplated to do this whole thing through proper channels one imagines he would speak with the male Starks when they were around.

One can also keep in mind that the Starks of old also were protective of their women, with Torrhen's sons opposing their sister's marriage to Ronnel Arryn and even refusing to attend it. We don't know why that was - because it was arranged by the queens or because of the choice they made (an Arryn of the Vale) - but we do know they had issues with that.

Another example is the Sara Snow story. Cregan only accepted sex between his half-sister and Jacaerys Velaryon after they had (allegedly) married. Assuming something like that actually took place.

As for Lya's honor:

The way to get rid of a bastard could also be ... birth control or abortion. We know those things can be done rather easily in Westeros. If Lya was afraid of a pregnancy, have her drink moon tea all the time, and construe the entire affair as her and Rhaegar doing something other than having sex.

The idea that Lya's honor was still intact after an abduction and a subsequent rape/deflowering at the hands of a married man which is supposedly healed by 'a secret polygamous wedding' coming before the deflowering/rape is pretty weird.

Lya would forever be seen as a slut after that by the people of Westeros, no matter whether anyone saw her and Rhaegar as married or not. Because all the circumstances around this 'marriage' were completely improper.

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jon Connington has just resurfaced in the story and with a POV to boot, so I imagine that if there was a wedding, he might have been there to witness it. So it's not just Howland Reed who knows things. I think different people have different pieces of the story. 

If there was a public marriage, yes, then Jon was likely attending it. He would have been one of those six companions Rhaegar took on his journey.

But a secret marriage could have been secret, even from him. Although I don't think it was - Jon is strangely precise when he introduces Aegon to the Golden Company, stipulating that he he is Rhaegar's firstborn son by Elia Martell. It could be all proper procedure, or a very subtle hint that Jon knows his silver prince had more than one bride ... and the men of the Golden Company, too.

Quote

This whole marriage situation reminds me a lot of Robb's will. Robb decided to name Jon his heir. As king he could erase Jon's bastardy and make him a Stark. And as it stands right now in the story, Jon has an older brother who happens to be with Jon Connington, and who can do the exact same thing that Robb did. Aegon can recognize him as his trueborn half-brother if Lyanna and Rhaegar were indeed married or he can decide to legitimize him. 

Daenerys could do that, too. I doubt Aegon will ever learn that he has a living half-brother ... or rather, if he learns that it will be at a time when Dany knows it, too.

Jon Connington knowing about the Lya marriage doesn't mean he knows about the offspring. And the problem is to prove that Jon Snow is actually Rhaegar's child by Lya after it has been established that they were married. This connection is not obvious, even if people buy they were married.

Quote

If Rhaegar was married to Lyanna, we know he was intent on making changes once he came back from the Trident. He could have forced the High Septon into accepting the marriage. 

If Rhaegar had intended to bring Lya to court after his return from the Trident they would likely have to have another wedding - the way Jaehaerys-Alysanne and Maegor-Ceryse had. Assuming it was a secret marriage, but also, I'd assume, if it was a public marriage that was universally condemned by the king, the Faith, and all the Realm, forcing Lya and Rhaegar into hiding.

Because I honestly think the reaction to their marriage is going to be the reason they went underground.

Edited by Lord Varys
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2 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

So do you think George is lying? Why would he lie to the people adapting his work, fellow creators/colleagues, and then to the readers?

There is no need for George to lie. It has never been confirmed anywhere that George has ever confirmed that Lyanna is Jon's mother in the books. Regardless of how people twist whatever interview they want to dig up.

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30 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

There is no need for George to lie. It has never been confirmed anywhere that George has ever confirmed that Lyanna is Jon's mother in the books. Regardless of how people twist whatever interview they want to dig up.

Sure he's never said who she is publicly (why would he just say it) but the showrunners knew. Since they said they got it right, and George says they got it right, and we all know what transpired in the show, it's a logical inference. It seems clear to me. But I see you disagree, that's fine.

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7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well certainly a lot of people in this thread seem very concerned about the fundamental importance of a legal "legitimacy".  Don't really have any evidence that Rhaegar would or would not, so I suppose one could argue either way about that.  

Let me correct: a lot of people are aware that the Westerosi nobility is very concerned about the fundament importance of a legal legitimacy. Therefore, we assume that Rhaegar most likely would have, as well.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would point out that a lot of the ancient mythologies that ASOIAF seem to homage never gave a rat's ass about whether their heroes or kings were legitimate or not. 

See above. Seems like the cultures those mythologies arose from were not as obsessed as Westeros.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all King Arthur was the illegitimate son of a King (and technically the offspring of a non consensual act), yet that didn't prevent him from drawing the sword from the stone.

Funny, I was just thinking I should edit this bit into my previous post - a public act that convinces everyone that XY is the king's heir. Kinda like riding a dragon.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for Lyanna's "honor", we're really starting to finely parse that definition aren't we?  I mean hiding a minor from her family and marrying her into a polygamous relationship is starting to stretch the definition of keeping things above board.

Robb right away deflowered Jeyne, and that is as dishonorable as it gets. Yet, by marrying immediately, he restored her honour. Hiding Lyanna away would have the same effect because people would automatically assume her deflowered, so if Rhaegar wants to something about that, he has to marry her, but polygamy is the best thing he can offer without harming Elia. It's not the best solution, but it is better than doing nothing.

BTW, "minor" is modern concept, foreign to Westeros. By using it, you do what we assume Rhaegar did - let the cultural perceptions with which he was raised colour his judgement.

 

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, they wouldn't give two shits about Rhaaegar's offspring by a Southerner.  Not sure that they would give two shits about Rhaegar's offspring with Lyanna, especially if they believe that offspring was born of a rape.  Not sure what they would think of the offspring if they thought Lyanna consensually joined some weird cult and entered into a polygamous relationship with the cult leader.  Which is kind of what this theory suggests.  Anytime you pick up your bride to be with six of your best buddies, things seem a little suspect.

Cherrypicking, with an occasional apricot in between. Revealing the marriage=/=revealing Rhaegar's need to fit into the prophecy. And the bit you have left out is that they may have married before the old gods, which stands a good chance to be considered binding.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

We know for a fact that Northerner's believe that incest is an abomination.  Not sure we're ever given an example of a polygamous Northern relationship.  Not sure about the Wildlings.   Craster's incest is definitely considered a no no by the Wildlings.  I don't know what the Wildlings think of his polygamy.

Then you're missing crucial information. When the Wildlings are being let behind the Wall, there is Ygon Oldfather, who has eighteen wives. No-one ever comments, just like they don't comment on Craster's many wives, other than that they are his daughters (and BTW, no-one thinks they are not wives).

As our friend @frenin kindly quoted above, the First Men did polygamy. Seems like old gods don't really care.

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