R + L = J v.167

[corbon]

 

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

1) Did I write anything about whom I believe or not believe to be Jon Snow‘s parents? Not a single word.

Did I say you did? Or mention that subject.

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

2) The magic word is „and“: is it anywhere in the books that Lyanna and baby Jon have been at the ToJ? No, it is not.

There is no magic word. No one word can convey that depth of information. At least not in English - the germans could probably make one I guess.  

Lyanna is tied to the ToJ, and so is her Bed of Blood, which is well established as a metaphor for childbirth.

You don't have to like it, or even agree with what it means, but you don't have to lie about it either.

And if you are going to equate comments on your posts with Pavlov's dogs, that makes you Pavlov, which means you are a troll - testing for a specific response, rather than genuinely engaging in discourse.

 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

If Wylla were Ashara's nickname, that wouldn't necessarily make her Jon Snow's mother, except for Ned Dayne thinking so.

Ned danced with Ashara at Harrenhall. Ashara jumped from a tower after the loss of a child and her lover. If she miscarried (Ned's child?) she might become a wetnurse? And the death of her lover might be figurative - Ned has married Cat by now.

Just an option.

That's not a possible option.

Cat met Wylla, and Cat heard from other people what Ashara Dayne looked like, so Wylla is not Ashara.

When Cat arrived with little Robb from Riverrun to Winterfell, Jon was already there, with his wet-nurse Wylla from Starfall. When Jon became older, Wylla went back to Dorne, and later became Edric Dayne's wet-nurse.

I'm sure that Jon was born at Starfall (it (Lyanna's bed of blood) fits with the "born under the bleeding stars" prophecy about Azor Ahai reborn, and Dawn of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer). Then, seeing that Lyanna is going to die, 3 Kingsguards took Jon and departed from Starfall. And when they were leaving, they took Wylla with them. I think that Wylla was wet-nurse of Ashara's child, Meera Reed. Howland Reed's wife, Jyana Reed, is actually Ashara Dayne. Ned and Howland intercepted those Kingsguards at the Tower of Joy, because they (3KG) stopped there on their way to Dragonstone, where they planned to bring their King (Jon). Lyanna wasn't at the TofJ, when Ned came there, she died before that. The scene where Lyanna made him promise to get Jon back, and to prevent those 3KG from revealing Jon's real identity to other people (which would have resulted in his death), took place at Starfall. From Starfall Ned went to the TofJ. And to Starfall he sailed from Storm's End. And it was Howland Reed, the father of Ashara's daughter, who informed Ned, that his (pregnant) sister is at Starfall.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Cat met Wylla

Where is that stated?

[corbon]

24 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Where is that stated?

Its not.
I agree that Cat probably met Wylla, but its not certain, and not explicit anywhere.
When Cat arrived at Winterfell Jon, Ned and an un-named wetnurse were already there. Its possible Ned changed wetnurse some time before Cat arrived in Winterfell, maybe even at Starfall, and that Wylla was not the un-named wetnurse at Winterfell. I don't see why he would, but its possible he did.

[alienarea]

Another obsessed one failing to read.

Obviously, though it is not stated anywhere, the wetnurse at Winterfell was not Wylla. If Ned had brought Wylla, people would remember her, and assume she is Jon's mother. That would lead to rumor's Ned had brought his concubine, and he would not gain the reputation he had. Plus, it would not go well with Cat.

It makes much more sense that the wetnurse at Winterfell is someone known in the North who cannot be Jon's mother.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Cat met Wylla

Where is that stated?

Wylla was Jon's wet-nurse.

Edric Dayne said so.

He made a wrong conclusion that Wylla is Jon's mother, but he wasn't wrong that Wylla was Jon's wet-nurse.

Wylla was working at Starfall prior Jon's birth. She was a wet-nurse and she served in that capacity at Starfall. Which means that prior Jon's birth there was another baby born at Starfall, and Wylla was hired to serve as that child's wet-nurse. And that child was Ashara's daughter, Meera Reed. Then, after Jon was born, and Lyanna was dying, 3KG took Jon and his wet-nurse with them and went to Dragonstone. Ned was able to intercept them at the Tower of Joy. He and Howland were the only survivors, and after the fight Howland went back to Starfall to fetch his wife and daughter, and Ned with Jon and Wylla also returned there. Because Ned's ship was there. Ned sailed to KL on that ship, with Wylla and Jon. That's when Robert either met Wylla or heard about her from Ned. Ned brought Lyanna's body to Robert, and then to Wintefell. It's easier to travel with a dead body, a newborn baby and a wet-nurse, on board of a ship, than on horseback or carriage, also it's much faster.

So when Ned brought Jon and Wylla to Winterfell, they were introduced there as Ned's bastard and his wet-nurse.

Several years later, when Jon didn't needed a wet-nurse anymore, Wylla went back to Starfall, where she became Edric's wet-nurse. And later, when Edric was older, she told him that she used to be Jon Snow's wet-nurse at Winterfell, or something amongst those lines, and Edric incorrectly interpretet that Jon is Wylla's child.

It doesn't makes sense for Ned to change Jon's wet-nurse. Things like that are not done. Not without a reason.

Jon had to change wet-nurse for Mance's child, because he needed to send Gilly away, and also to send away Mance's son, and thus this way a new wet-nurse wouldn't have known that the baby, that was given into her care, is a different baby, not Mance's son.

Why to send Wylla away? It doesn't make sense. She was near Lyanna, in Lyanna's last days, Lyanna approved her as her child's wet-nurse, in case if she herself will die during childbirth. If Lyanna didn't approved Wylla as a potential wet-nurse for her baby, then she had months and months of her pregnancy to hire a different wet-nurse. Nevertheless Wylla became Jon's wet-nurse and cared about him on the trip from Starfall to the Tower of Joy, and from the Tower of Joy back to Starfall, and from there to King's Landing. Doesn't makes sense for Ned to change a trusted and loyal servant, approved by Lyanna, a person who knows Jon's real identity, and is loyal to Daynes and Targaryens, and cares about Jon, doesn't makes sense to send her away and to hire someone else. That's absurd.

Wylla was Jon's only wet-nurse. And Cat met her at Winterfell. And there is no need for this to be stated anywhere. Because it's obvious.

[lehutin]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

Obviously, though it is not stated anywhere, the wetnurse at Winterfell was not Wylla. If Ned had brought Wylla, people would remember her, and assume she is Jon's mother. That would lead to rumor's Ned had brought his concubine, and he would not gain the reputation he had. Plus, it would not go well with Cat.

That's not "obvious" at all. There's no evidence that Cat or anyone else at Winterfell gossiped about Jon's wet nurse (Wylla or not) being Jon's mother:

Quote

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Wylla or not, there is no evidence of there being any gossip about the wet nurse being Jon's mother or Ned's concubine. And when Cat marshaled the courage to ask Ned, she didn't ask him whether "the wet nurse" was Jon's mother. She asked him whether Ashara was Jon's mother.

[Megorova]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

Obviously, though it is not stated anywhere, the wetnurse at Winterfell was not Wylla. If Ned had brought Wylla, people would remember her, and assume she is Jon's mother. That would lead to rumor's Ned had brought his concubine, and he would not gain the reputation he had. Plus, it would not go well with Cat.

Ned brought (supposedly) his bastard-child and the baby's wet-nurse to Winterfell. The people there were provided with information that Wylla came from Starfall, and that Ned Stark also visited Starfall, to give back Dawn to Ashara. Thus, they made assumption, that Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, and that Ned brought his child and a wet-nurse for him from Starfall, after Ashara there commited suicide.

While Ned was on his way from Starfall thru King's Landing to Winterfell, he provided Robert with false information that his child's mother is Wylla.

People at Starfall were made to believe that the mother of Ned Stark's bastard was Wylla. Because they obviously knew that there was nothing going on between Ashara and Ned, and thus Ashara can't be Jon's mother. They know it that Ashara isn't Jon's mother, and they are unaware that the people at Winterfell think that the mother of their Lord's bastard is their (Starfall's people's) Lady Ashara.

Ned intentionally disinformed people, while giving different information to people at different locations. It's not like those people will even meet each other, to compare notes on what Ned Stark said about his baby's mother.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Megorova

[Bael's Bastard]

19 hours ago, alienarea said:

Obviously, though it is not stated anywhere, the wetnurse at Winterfell was not Wylla. If Ned had brought Wylla, people would remember her, and assume she is Jon's mother. That would lead to rumor's Ned had brought his concubine, and he would not gain the reputation he had. Plus, it would not go well with Cat.

We don't know whether Wylla came to Winterfell as Jon's wetnurse.

Why would people in Winterfell assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was Wylla, but not assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was someone else?

We know what people in Winterfell assumed, regardless of Jon's wetnurse, that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. Cersei repeats this rumor. Yet Robert and Edric both take for granted that Wylla was Jon's mother. 

King Robert Baratheon thinks Wylla is a commoner that mothered Jon.

Lord Edric Dayne thinks that Ashara Dayne and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, but that Wylla mothered Jon.

Lady Catelyn Tully heard whispers that Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

Cersei speculates that some Dornish peasant, a whore, or Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

[SFDanny]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

We don't know whether Wylla came to Winterfell as Jon's wetnurse.

Very true, but I will be very surprised if we find Wylla was the wet nurse  in Winterfell when Catelyn arrives. It is very clear that Ned is hiding the identity of Jon's mother from everyone, with the possible exception of Robert. One doesn't bring Jon's mother, or someone who likely knows Jon's mother's identity to Winterfell if one needs to keep this information secret. My best guess is that Wylla is the wet nurse who travels with Ned to Starfall from the Tower of Joy and continues in that role while Ned and Jon are in that city. It is likely that Ned would want someone to be Jon's wet nurse on the return journey to his Northern Army, King's Landing, and onto Winterfell who knows nothing about the events at the Tower of Joy or of the identity of Jon's mother. If this secret is as important as it appears to be, then Ned very likely wants Wylla nowhere near the people who would ask some very pointed questions. It is too easy to resolve this problem by hiring a new wet nurse who is ignorant of any of the critical information.

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Why would people in Winterfell assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was Wylla, but not assume Jon's wetnurse was his mother if that wetnurse was someone else?

They wouldn't. They would accept the information we know, and that is likely from Ned himself, that the wet nurse in Winterfell is nothing more than a wet nurse taken into service to care and feed the child Ned brings home. Assuming Ned actually brings Jon home, and he and his wet-nurse  are not sent ahead in the custody of someone like Howland Reed. This latter possibility is something to consider if Ned really doesn't want Jon anywhere near King's Landing.

The important thing here is that the people of Winterfell, and Catelyn, will believe Ned's story that the wet nurse is only the wet nurse, if there is no other source to cast that claim into doubt. The Ned we know likes to lie as little as he has to do, and it would fit both Ned's motives and his practice to have a wet nurse who can just tell the simple truth as she knows it.

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

We know what people in Winterfell assumed, regardless of Jon's wetnurse, that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother. 

Which tells us two very important things. First, it tells us the people of Winterfell heard nothing from the wet nurse to contradict this tale. And, secondly, that the facts of Ned's return and Jon's coming to Winterfell do not contradict that story.

To the first point, it means that if Wylla was the wet nurse then she very likely did not tell the people of Winterfell the story, that Ned Dayne believes to be true, that she is Jon's mother. It is story she seemingly acknowledges in Starfall, but to in Winterfell. Why? To spare Catelyn's feelings if Ned brought the mother of his bastard child back to Winterfell and lies about who she is? Highly unlikely when there is no real need to bring Wylla to Winterfell.

To the second point, the rumors Ned's men bring home about Ashara being Jon's mom likely fall in line with the facts of Jon's birth as they know it. Critical here is that there is no rumor of Ned having an affair with a woman other than Ashara during the time Ned is with his troops.  Which doesn't mean that Ashara perhaps did meet with Ned during war, only that it is a possibility that would fit within the rumors the soldiers bring home. That it is Ashara who is named is not only a tale of Ned's attraction to Lady Dayne at the long ago tourney in Winterfell. It reflects the fact the troops almost certainly know nothing of Jon until Ned brings him along on his return from Starfall to his troops. My guess this is that Ned leaves his army at Storm's End and returns there to them from Starfall with baby Jon in tow. The story fits the gossip of Harrenhal, and it fits that Lord Eddard brings Jon from Starfall after Ned acknowledges having been there and returning Dawn to the Daynes.

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Cersei repeats this rumor.

 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Cersei speculates that some Dornish peasant, a whore, or Ashara Dayne mothered Jon.

It is critically important that Cersei repeats both of these rumors. She is almost certainly repeating what someone else has found out about Ned's "bastard son." It implies that someone has been investigating Jon's origins and it has gotten back to Cersei. Tywin, Robert, or Varys on their behalf are the likely sources of her information. Stannis is another source of investigation with his remarks to Jon about a "fishwife." But Cersei doesn't repeat that rumor. Cersei's rumors are both tied to Jon's appearance after his departure from Dorne and Starfall.

On 7/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Yet Robert and Edric both take for granted that Wylla was Jon's mother. 

King Robert Baratheon thinks Wylla is a commoner that mothered Jon.

Lord Edric Dayne thinks that Ashara Dayne and Ned fell in love at Harrenhal, but that Wylla mothered Jon.

Here, again, it is important that both Robert and Edric both think Wylla is Jon't mother and that they don't seem to believe the rumors both must have heard about Ashara. This is obviously because Robert believes Eddard when he gives him Wylla's name, and that Ned believes his source in Starfall - likely Wylla herself - that Wylla is Jon's mother.

In Robert's case, I think it is likely not only because Robert believes Ned will tell him the truth, but also because an investigation turns up nothing that forces Robert to doubt Eddard. Again no rumors that get back to Robert that Ashara visited Ned during the war. Also this might be evidence that Robert knows a different story from Harrenhal. That being it was perhaps Brandon that had an affair with Ashara, and not Ned.

The story as we know it, as confirmed by both Ned and Catelyn is that Jon is conceived after Ned leaves his new wife pregnant at Riverrun. The timing of Jon's appearance, and his physical appearance of the child's age, needs to fit this story. Otherwise, someone within the story, will count the days and wonder.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Very true, but I will be very surprised if we find Wylla was the wet nurse  in Winterfell when Catelyn arrives. It is very clear that Ned is hiding the identity of Jon's mother from everyone, with the possible exception of Robert.

While I agree wholeheartedly (and more importantly, whole headedly) with most of ths post there are a few points of exception.

Why except Robert? That makes no sense.

Quote

One doesn't bring Jon's mother, or someone who likely knows Jon's mother's identity to Winterfell if one needs to keep this information secret. My best guess is that Wylla is the wet nurse who travels with Ned to Starfall from the Tower of Joy and continues in that role while Ned and Jon are in that city. It is likely that Ned would want someone to be Jon's wet nurse on the return journey to his Northern Army, King's Landing, and onto Winterfell who knows nothing about the events at the Tower of Joy or of the identity of Jon's mother. If this secret is as important as it appears to be, then Ned very likely wants Wylla nowhere near the people who would ask some very pointed questions. It is too easy to resolve this problem by hiring a new wet nurse who is ignorant of any of the critical information.

I would use exactly the same idea, to come to the reverse conclusion. 
First, there's a pretty simple first thing to clarify. Either Wylla knows about Jon's true other, or she doesn't. 

If she doesn't, there's no reason to exclude her from Winterfell.

If she does, then she's almost certainly not someone that Ned knew and trusted long before a sudden need for a wetnurse while in Dorne.
Therefore, I think that Ned would be more likely to keep her under his eye and control - ie let her continue with him as Jon's wetnurse to Winterfell, rather than leave her somewhere he has no 'eye' on her and no control over her. Sure, people may ask pointed questions. But if she's under his eye and authority, then he can manage that (exactly as he did with the Ashara rumour, note). If she's at Starfall, people still might ask questions - not so many perhaps, but those that do could be infinitely more dangerously for him.

After a longer time under his eye, he's more likely to trust her enough to release her to return south if the North and/or Catelyn do not agree with her.

Quote

They wouldn't. They would accept the information we know, and that is likely from Ned himself, that the wet nurse in Winterfell is nothing more than a wet nurse taken into service to care and feed the child Ned brings home. Assuming Ned actually brings Jon home, and he and his wet-nurse  are not sent ahead in the custody of someone like Howland Reed. This latter possibility is something to consider if Ned really doesn't want Jon anywhere near King's Landing.

Cat says Ned brought Jon (and therefore the wetnurse) home with him.

Quote

 The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Its not ironclad, but we should roll with what we have, not alter it unnecessarily IMO.

Quote

The important thing here is that the people of Winterfell, and Catelyn, will believe Ned's story that the wet nurse is only the wet nurse, if there is no other source to cast that claim into doubt. The Ned we know likes to lie as little as he has to do, and it would fit both Ned's motives and his practice to have a wet nurse who can just tell the simple truth as she knows it.

Or at least a simple truth, even if its not the whole truth.

If Wylla knows the whole truth, where is it best for Ned to have her? You say not-Winterfell, I say Winterfell.

Quote

Which tells us two very important things. First, it tells us the people of Winterfell heard nothing from the wet nurse to contradict this tale. And, secondly, that the facts of Ned's return and Jon's coming to Winterfell do not contradict that story.

To the first point, it means that if Wylla was the wet nurse then she very likely did not tell the people of Winterfell the story, that Ned Dayne believes to be true, that she is Jon's mother. It is story she seemingly acknowledges in Starfall, but to in Winterfell.

There is no evidence she acknowledges it in Starfall. That Edric thinks it true does not mean she has been confronted with it. His source is likely Allyria.

Quote

Why? To spare Catelyn's feelings if Ned brought the mother of his bastard child back to Winterfell and lies about who she is? Highly unlikely when there is no real need to bring Wylla to Winterfell.

Agreed.

Quote

To the second point, the rumors Ned's men bring home about Ashara being Jon's mom likely fall in line with the facts of Jon's birth as they know it. Critical here is that there is no rumor of Ned having an affair with a woman other than Ashara during the time Ned is with his troops.  Which doesn't mean that Ashara perhaps did meet with Ned during war, only that it is a possibility that would fit within the rumors the soldiers bring home. That it is Ashara who is named is not only a tale of Ned's attraction to Lady Dayne at the long ago tourney in Winterfell. It reflects the fact the troops almost certainly know nothing of Jon until Ned brings him along on his return from Starfall to his troops. My guess this is that Ned leaves his army at Storm's End and returns there to them from Starfall with baby Jon in tow. The story fits the gossip of Harrenhal, and it fits that Lord Eddard brings Jon from Starfall after Ned acknowledges having been there and returning Dawn to the Daynes.

Agreed.

Quote

IIn Robert's case, I think it is likely not only because Robert believes Ned will tell him the truth, but also because an investigation turns up nothing that forces Robert to doubt Eddard. Again no rumors that get back to Robert that Ashara visited Ned during the war. Also this might be evidence that Robert knows a different story from Harrenhal. That being it was perhaps Brandon that had an affair with Ashara, and not Ned.

Agreed

Quote

The story as we know it, as confirmed by both Ned and Catelyn is that Jon is conceived after Ned leaves his new wife pregnant at Riverrun. The timing of Jon's appearance, and his physical appearance of the child's age, needs to fit this story. Otherwise, someone within the story, will count the days and wonder.

Absolutely.

Edited July 26, 2020 by corbon

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

While I agree wholeheartedly (and more importantly, whole headedly) with most of ths post there are a few points of exception.

Why except Robert? That makes no sense.

The important word for me here is "possible." Not that I really think it is at all likely, but given the very unlikely idea that Wylla is actually Jon's mother then the story tells us Ned has supplied that name to Robert not once, but twice. If that's the case, he didn't hide Jon's mother's identity from Robert, and only confided the information to Robert of all the other characters we know.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

I would use exactly the same idea, to come to the reverse conclusion. 
First, there's a pretty simple first thing to clarify. Either Wylla knows about Jon's true other, or she doesn't. 

If she doesn't, there's no reason to exclude her from Winterfell.

One thing we know is that, if Ned discovers Jon at the Tower of Joy, where he and Howland kill Ser Arthur, then it is necessary for someone to feed the child on a very long trip to Starfall where Lord Eddard returns Dawn to the Daynes. Now, it is possible to feed a human baby some substitute for mother's milk (goat's milk?) it is also likely that if Lyanna gives birth to Jon that a wet nurse is there to help feed and care of the babe. I think Wylla the wet nurse is the most likely candidate for the "they" who, along with Howland Reed find Ned holding his dead sister.

Over and over again, we are given examples of just such a practice, especially among high born mothers. I see little reason to doubt that the people with Lyanna would want such a person with them. Obviously, if Wylla is that wet nurse at the Tower of Joy, then she knows far too much of the secret Ned wants to hide from Robert, Catelyn, the people of Winterfell, and almost all of the rest of the world. Simply put, Ned can't afford to get a knowledgable Wylla any where near the vicinity of those who cannot know the truth. No matter the loyalty Wylla may have to keeping that secret, it is too dangerous to let Tywin, Robert, Stannis, Varys, or many others get the chance to have her under their control.

Just think of the possibility of what could happen if Robert does not believe Ned's story when he goes to King's Landing and shares his grief with his old friend about the news of Lyanna's death. Wylla in a black cell under Varys's questioning isn't something Ned can chance. When contemplating that, it is vital to put it in the context of how Ned had last seen Robert. With a deadly argument over the bodies of Rhaegar's children and Elia's brutalized corpse with Robert pronouncing the  babes "dragonspawn." If, as most of us believe, Lyanna made Ned promise on her deathbed to protect Jon from Robert and to hide the truth of Jon's identity from the world, especially from Robert, then, I think, we have to look at all of Ned's actions through that lens. The secret that keeps Jon safe cannot be shared with anyone except those he absolutely must. That is why I think it makes perfect sense for Ned to keep Wylla, Jon, and Howland away from King's Landing, Winterfell, and others.

Now, let me add one thing about Wylla as the wet nurse at the Tower of Joy. We know Edric Dayne believes Wylla is Jon's mother. Whoever tells him this story, and I think it is Wylla, then we have to ask ourselves that if this is not the story that is accepted in Starfall then why has no one disabused the young lord-to-be of this notion? Why is there seeming acceptance of this tale? I think it is because the facts as they know them fit the story Ned and Wylla tell. If the people of Starfall knew the Lady Ashara was pregnant and she returned with a child, they would think she was Jon's mother. Even if they were told it was not true, many would wonder. But if a unknown woman shows up with Lord Eddard Stark  and his infant son and claims the child as her own, then why would they doubt the story if both she and Ned tell the same claim? Ned bringing both to Starfall with him makes the tale believable. Wylla already being in Starfall and not being pregnant tell everyone the story is a lie. Wylla being pregnant in Starfall when Ned arrives makes it incredibly unlikely. No, Wylla's claim and showing up with Ned's party is the only thing that makes this story really possible.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

If she does, then she's almost certainly not someone that Ned knew and trusted long before a sudden need for a wetnurse while in Dorne.
Therefore, I think that Ned would be more likely to keep her under his eye and control - ie let her continue with him as Jon's wetnurse to Winterfell, rather than leave her somewhere he has no 'eye' on her and no control over her. Sure, people may ask pointed questions. But if she's under his eye and authority, then he can manage that (exactly as he did with the Ashara rumour, note). If she's at Starfall, people still might ask questions - not so many perhaps, but those that do could be infinitely more dangerously for him.

After a longer time under his eye, he's more likely to trust her enough to release her to return south if the North and/or Catelyn do not agree with her.

I don't believe Ned knows Wylla before the Tower of Joy. Nor do I think the people of Starfall  know her before she shows up with Ned, Jon, and who knows else. I think it is also very unlikely Wylla is even from Dorne. In fact, I think Wylla is from the area of the Three Sisters and the tale Lord Godric tell Davos is a false cover story to fool those who come looking for Wylla's origins.

No, I think Wylla is someone trusted by Rhaegar and Lyanna or perhaps the Lady Ashara who they bring to the Tower of Joy to help care for Lyanna. Ned doesn't choose to trust her. The circumstances force him to do so. The need for a wet nurse at the Tower predate Ned's arrival there, and Ned is forced to accept the wet nurse who already knows far too much into his confidence. That Wylla is loyal, not to Ned, but to Jon, Lyanna,  Rhaegar, and whoever else makes up the people hidden away at the Tower of Joy is, I think, the answer. Wylla may well grow to trust Ned and he her, but that isn't the start of Wylla's loyalty to hiding Jon's secret. Nor, do I think Wylla's loyalty is to those in Dorne who give her sanctuary from prying eyes. The loyalty of the Daynes is to Rhaegar and his son. They hide Wylla from all eyes because of that shared loyalty with Wylla. These are the people Ned must trust with this deadly secret because circumstances force him to do so.

All of this is even more likely if Ashara is at the Tower when Ned arrives. Which would explain how this party actually travels through Dorne during a time of war.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Cat says Ned brought Jon (and therefore the wetnurse) home with him.

Its not ironclad, but we should roll with what we have, not alter it unnecessarily IMO.

Of course, Catelyn isn't there when Jon and his wet nurse arrive. So we have to decide if Ned actually rides through the gates of Winterfell with  with Jon and his wet nurse beside him, or Cat's phrase is just a way of saying she found them there with Ned when she arrived. Either way isn't important that I can see. Rather the importance is that I doubt Ned brings Jon, Wylla, or Howland with him to King's Landing. Ned could send the three on before him and meet them traveling north, or he could send them to Winterfell before he or Cat arrive. The key, I think, it that Ned has very good reason to keep all of them away from King's Landing.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Or at least a simple truth, even if its not the whole truth.

If Wylla knows the whole truth, where is it best for Ned to have her? You say not-Winterfell, I say Winterfell.

We agree on the first, and we disagree of the second. I think I've already said why I think differently.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

There is no evidence she acknowledges it in Starfall. That Edric thinks it true does not mean she has been confronted with it. His source is likely Allyria.

There is evidence someone or someones acknowledges it in Starfall. Ned Dayne hears the tale for somewhere. If Wylla is the original source, as I think likely, then it is also seems likely Allyria supports this story.

The rest we agree upon. Always great to discuss this stuff with you @corbon. I hope life's treating you well in the midst of this chaos and danger. Take care of yourself, my friend.

Edited July 27, 2020 by SFDanny

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The important word for me here is "possible." Not that I really think it is at all likely, but given the very unlikely idea that Wylla is actually Jon's mother the the story tells us Ned has supplied that name to Robert not once, but twice. If that's the case, he didn't hide Jon's mother's identity from Robert, and only confided the information to Robert of all the other characters we know.

He didn't tell Robert Jon's mother's identity either, just the name of the woman Robert thinks is Jon's mother.
I know thats another argument, but you are using a false assumption.
It also seems to me not to be consistent. He didn't 'hide' Ashara's name from Cat either. He just shut down all conversation about Jon's mother. Which is exactly what he did with Robert.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

One thing we know is that, if Ned discovers Jon at the Tower of Joy, where he and Howland kill Ser Arthur, then it is necessary for someone to feed the child on a very long trip to Starfall where Lord Eddard returns Dawn to the Daynes. Now, it is possible to feed a human baby some substitute for mother's milk (goat's milk?) it is also likely that if Lyanna gives birth to Jon that a wet nurse is there to help feed and care of the babe. I think Wylla the wet nurse is the most likely candidate for the "they" who, along with Howland Reed find Ned holding his dead sister.

Over and over again, we are given examples of just such a practice, especially among high born mothers. I see little reason to doubt that the people with Lyanna would want such a person with them. Obviously, if Wylla is that wet nurse at the Tower of Joy, then she knows far too much of the secret Ned wants to hide from Robert, Catelyn, the people of Winterfell, and almost all of the rest of the world. Simply put, Ned can't afford to get a knowledgable Wylla any where near the vicinity of those who cannot know the truth. No matter the loyalty Wylla may have to keeping that secret, it is too dangerous to let Tywin, Robert, Stannis, Varys, or many others get the chance to have her under their control.

Agreed absolutely. 
Hence he needs to keep Wylla closer rather than further away. Its not even that she might talk voluntarily. Its that if she is out of his power, he has no control over what happens to her.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Just think of the possibility of what could happen if Robert does not believe Ned's story when he goes to King's Landing and shares his grief with his old friend about the news of Lyanna's death. Wylla in a black cell under Varys's questioning isn't something Ned can chance. When contemplating that, it is vital to put it in the context of how Ned had last seen Robert. With a deadly argument over the bodies of Rhaegar's children and Elia's brutalized corpse with Robert pronouncing the  babes "dragonspawn." If, as most of us believe, Lyanna made Ned promise on her deathbed to protect Jon from Robert and to hide the truth of Jon's identity from the world, especially from Robert, then, I think, we have to look at all of Ned's actions through that lens. The secret that keeps Jon safe cannot be shared with anyone except those he absolutely must. That is why I think it makes perfect sense for Ned to keep Wylla, Jon, and Howland away from King's Landing, Winterfell, and others.

Away from KL I can agree with. All he has to do is make a side trip to KL on the way home. I've speculated before the weturse and Jon 'never got off the boat' or similar (as a possible example) while Ned went up to the Red Keep. There are other ways too.
Other than that, frankly, one place is much like another. Robert, Varys, and many others have reach wherever Wylla might be. The only 'different' place, is Winterfell, where Ned has both immediately proximity should anything happen and absolute authority..

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Now, let me add one thing about Wylla as the wet nurse at the Tower of Joy. We know Edric Dayne believes Wylla is Jon's mother. Whoever tells him this story, and I think it is Wylla, then we have to ask ourselves that if this is not the story that is accepted in Starfall then why has no one disabused the young lord-to-be of this notion? Why is there seeming acceptance of this tale? I think it is because the facts as they know them fit the story Ned and Wylla tell. If the people of Starfall knew the Lady Ashara was pregnant and she returned with a child, they would think she was Jon's mother. Even if they were told it was not true, many would wonder. But if a unknown woman shows up with Lord Eddard Stark  and his infant son and claims the child as her own, then why would they doubt the story if both she and Ned tell the same claim? Ned bringing both to Starfall with him makes the tale believable. Wylla already being in Starfall and not being pregnant tell everyone the story is a lie. Wylla being pregnant in Starfall when Ned arrives makes it incredibly unlikely. No, Wylla's claim and showing up with Ned's party is the only thing that makes this story really possible.

Thats a logical fallacy. Thats not the only thing that makes this story really possible. There is an even simpler explanation that fits what we see through the books even better.
Ned turned up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow and didn't say anything. He ensures Jon is treated as his blood, and people make the usual assumptions. 
Thats even simpler and better fitting with what we see from Ned. The only extra thing needed is that Wylla never comments - which we frankly expect she wouldn't anyway, both for reasons involving any loyalty to the true parents, and Ned's reasons. So her silence, or refusal to comment, is taken as acceptance, assuming she is ever actually confronted with the rumour.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I don't believe Ned knows Wylla before the Tower of Joy.

I agree.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Nor do I think the people of Starfall  know her before she shows up with Ned, Jon, and who knows else. I think it is also very unlikely Wylla is even from Dorne. In fact, I think Wylla is from the area of the Three Sisters and the tale Lord Godric tell Davos is a false cover story to fool those who come looking for Wylla's origins.

I doubt this, but its possible. 
This 'cover story' business doesn't fit Ned's actions, his character, his intellectual temperament.  

IMO Godric's story is a simple localised story that puts a local flavour on an exotic story of the 'rich and famous'. The sort of modern equivalent of the small town story about some local interaction with a movie star that passed through town for a few days in the 2000s

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

No, I think Wylla is someone trusted by Rhaegar and Lyanna or perhaps the Lady Ashara who they bring to the Tower of Joy to help care for Lyanna. Ned doesn't choose to trust her. The circumstances force him to do so. The need for a wet nurse at the Tower predate Ned's arrival there, and Ned is forced to accept the wet nurse who already knows far too much into his confidence. That Wylla is loyal, not to Ned, but to Jon, Lyanna,  Rhaegar, and whoever else makes up the people hidden away at the Tower of Joy is, I think, the answer. Wylla may well grow to trust Ned and he her, but that isn't the start of Wylla's loyalty to hiding Jon's secret.

I agree, and thats precisely why I think Ned has to take her to Winterfell initially, rather than leave her in Starfall and get a new wetnurse.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Nor, do I think Wylla's loyalty is to those in Dorne who give her sanctuary from prying eyes. The loyalty of the Daynes is to Rhaegar and his son. They hide Wylla from all eyes because of that shared loyalty with Wylla. These are the people Ned must trust with this deadly secret because circumstances force him to do so.

Except they don't force him to do so. There is risk at Starfall, if anyone investigates, and indeed, it seems she is not 'hidden' there. There is risk as well at Winterfell, agreed, but IMO the authority he has there and the ability he has to manage that risk in Winterfell far far outweighs the benefits of leaving her in Starfall.

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Rather the importance is that I doubt Ned brings Jon, Wylla, or Howland with him to King's Landing. Ned could send the three on before him and meet them traveling north, or he could send them to Winterfell before he or Cat arrive. The key, I think, it that Ned has very good reason to keep all of them away from King's Landing.

I can agree with that part. 

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

We agree on the first, and we disagree of the second. I think I've already said why I think differently.

I don't think you've provided good arguments why (unusually for you IMO). But we can agree to disagree on that.  

3 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The rest we agree upon. Always great to discuss this stuff with you @corbon. I hope life's treating you well in the midst of this chaos and danger. Take care of yourself, my friend.

No chaos and danger here mate. We don't have the same depth of literal delusion in our society yet, and our politicians, little though I like them, actually acted decisively (some, including me, would argue too decisively, but the results are proof, so it was worth it), unlike the delusional and incompetent and actively malpracticional liars who seem to infest your governments at state and city levels and who actively made things worse due to their delusions and lies at the start and continue to do so.

Hope you and yours are staying well though.

[Frey family reunion]

Wylla is an interesting riddle.  If indeed she was a wet nurse that Eddard found at or in the vicinity of the tower of joy, then my guess is she is a local girl, one of the Red Mountain folk.

What I gather from the World Book is that the Dornish Houses found in the Red Mountains are basically a more civilized version of the Mountain clans that we see up north and in the Valelands.  So my guess is that they may be a fairly insular folk, especially the commoners that live amongst them.

Wylla may be a commonly found name in that region as well.  There was a Dornish folk hero named Wylla who fought the Targaryens almost three hundred years prior to these events.  

One possibility is that if Eddard travelled to the tower of joy from the Stormlands, he may have traveled through the lands occupied by House Wyl where he may have procured the services of a wet nurse.  At least if Eddard had a good idea that he may be leaving with an infant after the fight at the tower of joy.  The fact that he seems to travel there with a small hand picked group of trusted Northmen indicates that he may have known beforeheand that his goal was to procure something at the tower of joy that he didn't want Robert to know about.

But regardless of whether Eddard brought Wylla with him to the tower of joy, or if he found Wylla at the tower of joy, or if he found her after the battle in the surrounding area, the next question is why would she have either stayed at Starfall and remained in their service as opposed to travelling back to her home, or if she was taken to Winterfell why would she then return to Starfall as opposed to staying in Winterfell.

The other question is what happened to Wylla's child?  After all to be a wet nurse, the presumption is that Wylla had recently been pregnant.  

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I have a candidate for who Wylla might be. Something was dropped in AFfC about Garin's mother. Garin was Arianne's milk brother. His mother was Arianne's wet nurse and she was a midwife as well. By the time 283 AC rolls around, Arianne is already some 7 years old. 

[Buried Treasure]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless of whether Eddard brought Wylla with him to the tower of joy, or if he found Wylla at the tower of joy, or if he found her after the battle in the surrounding area, the next question is why would she have either stayed at Starfall and remained in their service as opposed to travelling back to her home, or if she was taken to Winterfell why would she then return to Starfall as opposed to staying in Winterfell.

The other question is what happened to Wylla's child?  After all to be a wet nurse, the presumption is that Wylla had recently been pregnant.  

 

Infant mortality is high enough that I don't feel we have to strain too hard for an explanation of why she did not have a child at breast when Jon was newborn.  Her own baby could have died or else it was old enough to be already weaned.

 

Your latter point also gives a strong possible explanation for why she would not go to Winterfell: prior commitments. Even a servant can have other priorities in her life than serving the needs of a distantly-landed Lord, maybe she had other family, or loyalties, in Dorne. If she had no living children at the time, she might still have had a husband/lover who was father of her firstborn. They could have been planning for more children together; Edric Dayne is 2-3 years younger than Jon, and whilst it is possible she was a professional wetnurse with no intervening pregnancies, it is also possible she had milk to spare for Edric from having a child between Jon and Edric's births.

Going to Winterfell and returning seems like a non-starter for a peasant woman. Travelling to Winterfell with an escorted party under the authority of a Great Lord is safe enough. But you would not expect the lord to contract a ship from White Harbor to Starfell for the sole purpose of returning a servant? Which would leave her making the long return journey alone.  There is ample evidence in the books of how much risk a woman alone would be taking to travel half the continent.

It makes more sense that Ned have contracted a second wetnurse who was willing to travel to Winterfell, with the promise of a place in his household, to make a new home in the North 

[SFDanny]

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Wylla is an interesting riddle.  If indeed she was a wet nurse that Eddard found at or in the vicinity of the tower of joy, then my guess is she is a local girl, one of the Red Mountain folk.

She is indeed an interesting riddle. While my guess is not the same as yours, what you propose is certainly possible. For me, the clues Martin leaves us point elsewhere.

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I gather from the World Book is that the Dornish Houses found in the Red Mountains are basically a more civilized version of the Mountain clans that we see up north and in the Valelands.  So my guess is that they may be a fairly insular folk, especially the commoners that live amongst them.

Wylla may be a commonly found name in that region as well.  There was a Dornish folk hero named Wylla who fought the Targaryens almost three hundred years prior to these events.

I lean towards the importance of Wylla's shared name with Manderly's daughter and the tale of the fisherman's daughter. I think it unlikely an obscure reference in The World of Ice & Fire is the key to Wylla's origins. Possible, but unlikely.

 

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

One possibility is that if Eddard travelled to the tower of joy from the Stormlands, he may have traveled through the lands occupied by House Wyl where he may have procured the services of a wet nurse.  At least if Eddard had a good idea that he may be leaving with an infant after the fight at the tower of joy.  The fact that he seems to travel there with a small hand picked group of trusted Northmen indicates that he may have known beforeheand that his goal was to procure something at the tower of joy that he didn't want Robert to know about.

I agree that the number and origins of Ned's companions to the Tower of Joy are important clues, but it doesn't suggest he knows of Jon's existence, or that he might anticipate the need  of a wet nurse to accompany him once he gets there. Rather it suggests that Ned knows Lyanna was a willing part of her "kidnapping." That she is unlikely to want to be rescued and returned to Robert's "loving" protection and control.

Ned wants men who are loyal to him, first and foremost, when he encounters his sister. Which explains his companions Northern origins. The small number of his companions suggests Lord Eddard is not going to war in a region still rife with Targaryen loyalists, but is trying to keep his mission as secret as possible. It also suggests he knows something of who and in what numbers he will encounter when he finds Lyanna. How he knows this has long been a subject of debate. I think it likely he finds out from someone amongst the loyalist forces who surrender to him at Storm's End.

Did that someone tell Eddard his sister was pregnant? Again, it is possible, but we can't assume that. I find it highly unlikely that Ned adds to his carefully selected party of highly loyal northern lords, proven in the rebellion, with a woman he picks up en route because he has the foresight to think a wet nurse might be useful.

Rather, we have abundant evidence to suggest that a wet nurse would be a normal part of those in attendance to the birth of high born lady's child. It is likely, I think, the people around Lyanna haven't been oblivious to her needs if and when they know she is pregnant. They are the likely people responsible for bringing a wet nurse to the Tower. Not Ned.

In fact, I find it likely that a wet nurse isn't the only one we would expect to be at the Tower other than Lyanna and the Kingsguard. A maester would be expected to also be in attendance, and other servants as well. Ask yourself who cooked for the occupants of the Tower for those months on end? Perhaps it all fell on Wylla, but I would expect that was not the case.

On 7/31/2020 at 7:30 AM, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless of whether Eddard brought Wylla with him to the tower of joy, or if he found Wylla at the tower of joy, or if he found her after the battle in the surrounding area, the next question is why would she have either stayed at Starfall and remained in their service as opposed to travelling back to her home, or if she was taken to Winterfell why would she then return to Starfall as opposed to staying in Winterfell.  

I would suggest it is not hard to imagine why a servant might find working in the Dayne household an attractive option. What is more intriguing to me is why the Daynes would offer her such a position? It's unlikely the Daynes could not find a wet nurse in Starfall or the surrounding country. What function does this woman provide that many others could not? I think the answer is simple. She provides silence on a topic the Daynes require silence about. Wylla gets to live a life most of her station would love, and in return she just must not speak about certain things she knows to anyone. The Daynes can both protect her from those questions she can't answer, and watch her to make sure she doesn't begin to say things she shouldn't. My guess is that this is both a question best understood by shared loyalties, and shared needs to protect the same secrets.

On 7/31/2020 at 7:30 AM, Frey family reunion said:

The other question is what happened to Wylla's child?  After all to be a wet nurse, the presumption is that Wylla had recently been pregnant.  

It's a very good question, but I'd say it not so much that Wylla need to have been recently pregnant, but rather that she has continued to breast feed a child since she last gave birth. Did her child die? We just don't know, but I have my favorite theory about a second child, other than Jon, that she may have nursed and called her own. It's in my signature.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 7/22/2020 at 10:40 PM, lehutin said:

I don't agree that that's "just like" that. But if we're limiting ourselves, for sake of discussion, exclusively to words in the books, then I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone who continues to insist that Ned Stark is Jon Snow's father (and which I asked earlier in the thread):

 

In Eddard XII, Ned thinks to himself and lists all of his children by name in the order they were born:

yet Jon's name is not in that list. Why isn't Jon's name in that list?

 

I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this question from anyone who denies R+L=J. What I have heard are things like

• Jon's name is implied to be in the list (me: it may be implied, but it's definitely not actually in the list).
• Ned is thinking about what Catelyn would do (me: he does, after he first thinks about what he would do).
• Jon is Ned's bastard, so he shouldn't be in the same list as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon (me: Cersei only asked Ned whether he loves his children, not whether he loves his children with Catelyn).
• Ned still thinks of Jon (me: this dodges my question, which is why doesn't Ned list Jon's name together with Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position).
• Ned called Jon his son in public, therefore Jon is his son, case closed! (me: lol)

So when Cersei asks Ned "you love your children, do you not?" and Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position, why does Ned exclude Jon's name from the named list of his children in the order they were born?

Theory; Jon 's  name should not be on the list , and not because of R+L=J  . Joffrey .  Myrcella and Tommen are royalty , while Robb , Sansa , Arya , Bran and Rickon are high born . Both sets have much to lose . Jon is a bastard his fate is set .

[Bael's Bastard]

Nope, try again.

[lehutin]

17 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Theory; Jon 's  name should not be on the list , and not because of R+L=J  . Joffrey .  Myrcella and Tommen are royalty , while Robb , Sansa , Arya , Bran and Rickon are high born . Both sets have much to lose . Jon is a bastard his fate is set .

Your response is basically the same as what I mentioned and addressed:

On 7/22/2020 at 10:40 PM, lehutin said:

• Jon is Ned's bastard, so he shouldn't be in the same list as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon (me: Cersei only asked Ned whether he loves his children, not whether he loves his children with Catelyn).

Cersei placed no restriction on the status of Ned's children. She didn't ask him

• "you love your children with Catelyn, do you not?"
• "you love your trueborn children, do you not?"
• "you love your highborn children, do you not?"

She just asked him

Quote

you love your children, do you not?

Based on that question wording, If Jon is one of Ned's children, his name should be on that list: "Robb and Jon and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon." Even if you want to argue that despite the question wording, Ned mentally separates his children by legitimacy, Jon's name should still be on that list: "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon; or Jon."

 

But neither of those happened on the page. Ned does not think of Jon as one of his children, trueborn or bastard, when he thinks to himself,

Quote

what would I do?

 R+L=J easily explains this: Jon isn't one of Ned's children. R+L=J denial can't explain this without rewording Cersei's question; assuming that Jon's name is implied on the page; dodging it by saying that Ned still thinks of Jon from Cat's perspective; or worst of all, bizarrely claiming that Ned is the George Washington-Abraham Lincoln of Westeros and never lies.